[Brass Balls]

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/CNBCTV/Promos/P83106.asp

I would endorse Rumsfeld stepping down if the prisoner problem was an epidemic in all of the prisons containing terrorists. As it stands this is the case of a handful of soldiers in one location. For that reason I think it is ludicrous to suggest that Rumsfeld step down.

Furthermore it pisses me off that American media is posting these prisoner photos every chance they get, yet they won't show pictures of our soldiers being dragged through the streets for Iraq. Wanna show some pictures? How about showing the pictures of the Twin Towers being hit? How about showing people jumping from these buildings because that was a better choice than burning to death?

[CannibalCrowley]

It's ridiculous to ask Rumsfield to step down. I'd much rather see courts-martial for all of those who were involved, to include that Brigadier General who is making the TV show rounds. People being dragged through the streets are gruesome (some to the amount to violate FCC regs) but the pictures in the prison can easily have the offending material blurred out. The soldiers who commited these acts deserve to have their faces plastered all over for what they did.

[SkunkApe]

How about showing the pictures of the Twin Towers being hit? How about showing people jumping from these buildings because that was a better choice than burning to death?

How about showing some pictures that tie Iraq to these attacks?

[Augustwest]

Sure, I'm in favor of his stepping down, as long as they don't replace him with anyone else. Gettin' rid of the gov't, one piece at a time! :D

[gunsmith]

Were probably dirtbags,so while while their treatment (the prisoners)
isn't right,I am willing to bet they did far worse during their days guarding Saddam's rape and torture rooms.

[Zundfolge]

If Janet Reno didn't have to step down over Waco then why should Rummy step down over this?

[Unlucky]

If Janet Reno didn't have to step down over Waco then why should Rummy step down over this?

Because he's not a LIBERAL, silly. :neener:

[gunsmith]

How about showing some pictures that tie Iraq to these attacks?

Saddam sent checks to Palestinian families if they sent their teenager to blow themselves up in pizza parlors full of little kids having a birthday party,or blowing up a bus full of children on their way to school.
Abu Abbas was caught in Bagdhad right after the troops took control of Saddam's palace. There is plenty to tie Saddam to terrorist but the New York Times cares more about appeasement then truth.

Saddam practiced real torture,if masturbation is torture,what is this?
http://members.cox.net/free_iraq/Tortured%2004.jpg

[Jeff White]

My personal feeling is that when history looks back on his time as Secretary of Defense, Donald H Rumsfeld will be right up there with Robert S McNamara in contention for the title of the one man who did more to destroy our military capability when in office.

That said, wanting Rumsfeld to resign over the prison abuse issue would be like demanding the CEO of General Motors resign because a service manager at a dealership somewhere ripped off a customer on a repair. The system is working and those responsible will get their just due.

Jeff

[HBK]

I don't like Rumsfeld's whole "we can do less with more" policy, but asking him to step down over this is ridiculous.

[Leatherneck]

I disagree, Jeff. I think that if 9/11/2001 had not happened we would be much farther into the kind of transformation Rumsfeld originally set out to accomplish. As it is, the reforms are coming slowly because of the need to support the (various) combat efforts.

It won't be bloodless (transformation, that is). The defense industry will have to learn what accountability is, and the armed forces themselves will have to finally learn to fight (and support) jointly. Between new weapon systems and new tactics, techniques and procedures, the smaller DoD of the future will be able to fight and beat anybody. JMO, and YMMV.

This MP/intel episode is only an embarassing blip on the screen.

TC
TFL Survivor

[CZ52GUY]

...watched some of the "pontification" on C-SPAN.

The continued insistence on blame shifting is nauseating.

The level of "outrage" from this incident makes the murder and mutiliation of the 4 contractors seem like a fender bender on the "richter scale" of media frenzy.

People in and out of uniform behaved criminally. They should receive appropriate due process. Those who are proven guilty should be punished.

The political opportunism is revolting to watch.

BTW, if the other party was in power, I'm guessing the roles would simply reverse themselves.

This is an ugly day...one that is sickening to watch.

A final note...McCain insulted the memory of Pat Tillman by declaring that he was somehow diminished by this event...

...since this is the High Road, I won't express my full contempt and outrage at the "distinguished Senator's" remarks.

Pat Tillman is not accused of abusing anyone.

Pat Tillman walked away from millions because he believed in something.

Pat Tillman gave his life for what he believed in.

Senator McCain used to believe in something.

Now he disparages hero's by associating them with the criminal acts of others...no wonder he doesn't get the gun issue either.

CZ52'

[R.H. Lee]

I voted no, but if Rumsfeld were to resign, it would be a hoot for GWB to appoint Wolfowitz as Defense Sec.

That would really put the lefts panties in a wad.

[Antlurz]

CZ52GUY...

I think you read McCains statements wrong. What I got from it was that McCain was very upset that the actions of these MP's cast a bad light on the sacrifice Pat Tillman made..

I'm NOT a fan of John McCain, but in general, he's on our side when it comes to standing up for our troops. That, however is about the only thing I can say that is good about him.

Ron

[Third_Rail]

Y 44, N 56 are the current numbers if anyone cares.

[stevelyn]

The incidents at the Iraqi prison are a result of failures with the local command structure starting with the brigadier general down to the squad leaders working inside the prison.
The entire local chain of command should be relieved of duty along with those "soldiers" who took an active part in the incidents. Then court-martial the entire lot if enough evidence is found against them.

Demanding the SECDEF to resign because of events thousands of miles away beyond his personal control is not just unrealistic, it's stupid.

(In case he does I have a couple of suggested replacements)

[SAG0282]

I stand by ol' Rumsfeld, and hope he weathers this little incident.

[Selfdfenz]

Voted No

Along with 56% of the voters responding.

I like Rummy, he's old school in some ways.

S-

[CZ52GUY]

I think you read McCains statements wrong. What I got from it was that McCain was very upset that the actions of these MP's cast a bad light on the sacrifice Pat Tillman made..

I didn't read McCain's statements wrong, I heard them uttered live.

If he offers a clarification, I'll be happy to read it/hear it.

Until then, I stand by my criticism of McCain's remarks as given.

During Viet Nam, the actions of some led to many returning vets being branded with the same iron...called Baby Killers and other unfair, inappropriate names...their safety called into question by "enlightened" individuals.

McCain made the same leap with Tillman...to even suggest that his memory is diminished by some "shared responsibility" is an outrage.

McCain lived through 'Nam, he should know better.

He (McCain) was once a great American...now he's a typical Washington insider...corrupted by the system.

CZ52'

[Michigander]

Saddam practiced real torture,if masturbation is torture,what is this?

Photoshop?

[Dave R]

This poll is pretty close--57 keep him, 43 fire him.

We could use some more votes...

I think the Reno/Waco Rumsfeld/Iraq comparison is a good one. If Reno shouldn't resign over Waco, why should Rumsfeld resign over this?

The commanding officer of the crew who ran the prison is probably the appropriate one to hold responsible.

[SkunkApe]

I think the Reno/Waco Rumsfeld/Iraq comparison is a good one. If Reno shouldn't resign over Waco, why should Rumsfeld resign over this?

Isn't it possible to believe both Rumsfeld and Reno should/should have resigned?

C'mon, you're smarter than this.

[Zundfolge]

Isn't it possible to believe both Rumsfeld and Reno should/should have resigned?

Actually Reno should have resigned and Rumsfeld not ... Reno ordered the atrocity at Waco ... Rumsfeld had nothing to do with the incident in Iraq (which frankly is about as earth shattering as a Frat Hazing gone bad).

My reason for bringing up the Reno/Waco thing was to point out that the only reason Democrats are asking for Rumsfeld's head is because he's a Republican and they will take any Republican down for any reason (legitimate or not) any chance they get and the mainstream media will help them (that last part is the primary difference between Republicans and Democrats in this type of situation).

[jerryd]

Voted no! How come all the countrys and Gov officials didnt say anything when the contractors were dragged thru the streets, what about Samalia, GW 1 Viet Nam Korea the list goes on, why is it ok for so scumbag country to do it but not us? The old saying alls fair in love and War!

[SkunkApe]

Zundfolge,

My point is this: It is wrong to say that just because Reno didn't resign, that it is wrong to call for Rumsfeld's resignation. Both cases need to stand on their own merits. They are completely unrelated. Its like saying "if you don't like onions, how can you like peas?" (I dislike both onions and peas.)

[JW2]

No, not because of this anyway...

[RGR]

Democrats ... will take any Republican down for any reason (legitimate or not) any chance they get and the mainstream media will help them...

Let's see now ... who is that owns the mainstream media? Multi-gigabuck corporations, with financial interests throughout the economy, including petroleum and defense. NBC, one of the more mainstream media companies, is owned by General Electric, at one time the largest US (hence, world) defense contractor.

Disney just told its subsidiary Miramax not to distribute Michael Moore's latest movie, which has *soldiers* (not campus radicals) speaking critically of Bush. I'm no fan of Michael Moore, BTW -- and not only because he's for gun control. He lies and misleads. But that's not among the reasons Disney gave for not distributing his film. "We ... didn't want to be in the middle of a politically-oriented film during an election year," according to Disney chief Eisner.

Yet, "Disney, through its various subsidiaries, is one of the largest distributors of political, often highly partisan media content in the country-- virtually all of it right-wing. Consider:

- Almost all of Disney's major talk radio stations-- WABC in New York, WMAL in D.C., WLS in Chicago, WBAP in Dallas/Ft. Worth and KSFO in San Francisco-- broadcast Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. Indeed, WABC is considered the home station for both of these shows, which promote an unremitting Republican political agenda. (Disney's KABC in L.A. carries Hannity, but has Bill O'Reilly instead of Limbaugh.) Disney's news/talk stations are dominated by a variety of other partisan Republican hosts, both local and national, including Laura Ingraham, Larry Elder and Matt Drudge.

Disney's Family Channel carries Pat Robertson's 700 Club, which routinely equates Christianity with Republican causes. After the September 11 attacks, Robertson's guest Jerry Falwell (9/13/01) blamed the attacks on those who "make God mad": "the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who try to secularize America." Robertson's response was, "I totally concur." It's hard to imagine that anything in Moore's film will be more controversial than that.

"Disney's ABC News prominently features John Stossel, who, though not explicitly partisan, advocates for a conservative philosophy in almost all his work: "It is my job to explain the beauties of the free market," he has explained (Oregonian, 10/26/94). No journalist is allowed to advocate for a balancing point of view on ABC's news programs.

"Given the considerable amount of right-wing material distributed by Disney, much of it openly promoting Republican candidates and issues, it's impossible to believe that Disney is preventing Miramax from distributing Fahrenheit 911 because, as a Disney executive told the New York Times (5/5/04), 'It's not in the interest of any major corporation to be dragged into a highly charged partisan political battle.' Disney, in fact, makes a great deal of money off of highly charged partisan political battles, although it generally provides access to only one side of the war...."

[/URL]

"Rumsfeld received his slap on the wrist, not for the mistreatment of the prisoners, but for the mistreatment of the president, whose political handlers and spin doctors were caught off guard when CBS broadcast its first report on the Abu Ghraib torture last week.... The desire of the US ruling elite [is] to use Rumsfeld as a political lightning rod, and thus protect the Bush White House...

"The abuses at Abu Ghraib can be traced back in part to Rumsfeld’s frequent declarations, beginning with the treatment of Taliban and al Qaeda prisoners in Afghanistan, that the United States would no longer be bound by the Geneva Conventions; that prisoners classified as illegal combatants 'do not have any rights'; that the military-run detention center in Guantanamo Bay was not subject to any oversight, either US or international...

"None of these statements, however, were expressions of Rumsfeld’s private opinions. They reflected the policy of the Bush administration, as set by Bush and Cheney. This policy applied not only to prisoners taken on the battlefield in Afghanistan, or in military raids in Baghdad and Fallujah, but to those detained within the United States itself in the Bush-declared 'war on terror.'"

[URL]http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/may2004/iraq-m07.shtml (http://www.fair.org/activism/disney-moore-update.html) (Yes, it's a socialist website. So what? I'm not a socialist and the analysis has little to do with socialism. In fact, some here would argue against firing Rumsfeld for the very reason that the dehumanization of Iraqis was US policy, not incompetence on his part. Per the Reno discussion -- Rummy probably didn't order the abuse, but he certainly participated fully in government policies, self-righteous rhetoric, and defiance of international norms, all of which strongly encouraged it. But I agree that he should not be singled out -- he and Bush and many others in the administration should not only be impeached -- not only fired -- but tried, for war crimes.)

But back to the media...

My local paper's coverage of the issue today placed government spokesperson's statements up front, and at the very end, quoted both a Red Cross official and a presumably unauthorized (but named) US military officer as saying that reports of abuse had been given to high-ranking administration officials late last year. Credible allegations that the president LIED about a serious issue ... knew about the abuse for months, but ignored it, and is now lying about it and has picked his scapegoat ... buried in the inner pages by your "left-wing" media.

Some people see only what they want to see.

[Tamara]

In other news, a gas station attendant in Dubuque stole $20 from a customer.

Should the CEO of Texaco step down? :scrutiny:

(Howzabout just firing the thieving clown like it says to in the employee manual, and let the CEO continue to do his important CEO stuff. :uhoh: )

[Tamara]

I'm no fan of Michael Moore, BTW -- and not only because he's for gun control.

Out of curiousity, do you in fact own any firearms? What kind? Where in Austin do you shoot? What's your screen name on DU? :scrutiny:

[DTLoken]

How about showing the pictures of the Twin Towers being hit? How about showing people jumping from these buildings because that was a better choice than burning to death?

lol red herring

[Brass Balls]

America should never forget September 11th.


How about showing pictures of American contractors being burned and dragged through the streets of Felusia? What our soldiers did in the infamous photographs was wrong, but it doesn't even compare what happened in Felusia.

[Boats]

Were I in charge it is unlikely any of these guys would have been alive and naked. Since I would be willing to bet that none of the detainees in that particular institution were caught in uniform whilst toting arms against us they'd have faced firing squads by now, after a proper tribunal of course.

Why are we in Afghanistan and Iraq and almost no one else is in any meaningful numbers? Because the only force in the world that can take on this latter day 11th Century toxification of Islam is our ability touch base with our 19th Century frontier heritage. Everyone else is hiking their skirts while we take on some culturally wacked out desperadoes.

Ewwww, we're going to inflame them. Maybe we should. It's long past time for the black flag to fly during this ancient battle.

[Unlucky]

"Disney's ABC News prominently features John Stossel, who, though not explicitly partisan, advocates for a conservative philosophy in almost all his work: "It is my job to explain the beauties of the free market," he has explained (Oregonian, 10/26/94). No journalist is allowed to advocate for a balancing point of view on ABC's news programs.

:what:

This may be the most hilarious thing I've read in a great while. Journalists self-identify as democrat at close to 90%, and as liberals at around 70% so, pray tell, which viewpoint isn't being heard?

Almost all of Disney's major talk radio stations-- WABC in New York, WMAL in D.C., WLS in Chicago, WBAP in Dallas/Ft. Worth and KSFO in San Francisco-- broadcast Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. Indeed, WABC is considered the home station for both of these shows, which promote an unremitting Republican political agenda. (Disney's KABC in L.A. carries Hannity, but has Bill O'Reilly instead of Limbaugh.) Disney's news/talk stations are dominated by a variety of other partisan Republican hosts, both local and national, including Laura Ingraham, Larry Elder and Matt Drudge.

And left-wing radio has been SOOOOO profitable and successful lately. :rolleyes:

Some people see only what they want to see.

:rolleyes:

Tell me about it.

[firearms_instructor]

Donald Rumsfeld should never resign, he is the BEST Secretary of Defense we have ever had because HE HAS THE BEST KUNG FU!!!

If you don't believe me, check it out:

http://www.poe-news.com/features.php?feat=31845

Yes, you have good Kung-Fu, but is it any match for my Flailing Legs of Death?!

[Treylis]

"Disney's ABC News prominently features John Stossel, who, though not explicitly partisan, advocates for a conservative philosophy in almost all his work: "It is my job to explain the beauties of the free market," he has explained (Oregonian, 10/26/94). No journalist is allowed to advocate for a balancing point of view on ABC's news programs.

Stossel is more than just conservative in his economic viewpoints, he is, I understand, a rather staunch free-market Libertarian. Since this pretty much means that he's for things like gay marriage and the legalization of drugs, please explain to me how exactly that's "conservative".

[ravinraven]

Liberals hold Conservatives/Republicans to a higher standard. This is true and it is only natural. C/Rs are CAPABLE of higher standards. No one knows this better than Liberals do. The HIGHER STANDARD thing is the way they honor R/Cs.

If Libs let Conservatives get away with what they, Libs, normally do, then Conservatives would be Libs.

I voted for Rummy to STAY.

rr

[444]

In America we have an obsession with blaming someone. This seems to be one of the first reactions learned by children.
My question is, what does it accomplish ?
Would his resignation make the hands of time turn back and undo what has been done ?
And, if it doesn't accomplish anything, why do it ?
Actually, it would accomplish one thing; it would allow us the opportunity to blame someone.

[Waitone]

Rummy needs to go but not for the prison fiasco.

I got major questions about "transformation" based on what I know particularly when its manifestations seem to involve slighting of military capabillities other than combat arms.

We train trigger pullers to a fine edge. We train trigger pullers in things not traditionally assoicated with trigger pulling. . .like riot control in a combat zone. We seem to concentrate on the pointy end of the spear and ignore the shaft upon which the spear is mounted.

We begin a war before the forces of one of three columms of attack are incountry. No one has yet explained how State and CIA so royally and completely screwed up the prediction of how Turkey would act. Transformation issue in my opinion.

During combat our supply columns were vulnerable to attack because the freakin' MP were still stateside. Who made that decision? Transformation.

Because the 4th ID didn't come in through Turkey, forces from the south ad to bypass Fallujah. . . . .the center of gravity of the old regime. The people directly repsonsible for the misery that passed for old Iraq miss the full combat power of American forces. Transformation issue.

Security was bad in Fallujah so some flaming genius said, "OK arm the goons of this Al Sadr clown." The rest is history. Transformation issue.

Then we move the prison scandal. Confused chain of command. Contractors doing interrogation. Intelligence telling MP's to "soften up" prisoners. Two chains of command. Clearly a transformation issue.

I could go on but I'm getting mad about the whole concept. Transofrmation for the military is no different than what corporations are going through. I can tell you from hard experience corporate transformation is not a permanent fix. Simply because to make it work you must cut through the muscle and well into the bone. Sooner or later there will be failures because of the cuts made. Then you get to start to rebuild all over.

Rummy tried to do this was on the cheap. He had to decide what was important and what wasn't. He chose on the basis of the must urgent and the less urgent bit him in the butt. Welcome to the world of transformation. It ain't gonna work long term in the corporate world and it ain't gonna work long term in the military. The prison scandal is merely the first in a long list of Charlie Foxtrots coming our way.

[Malone LaVeigh]

The entire administration needs to go. For getting our troops, and the rest of us for that matter, into a mess like this in the first place.

Every day I get closer to voting for Kerry.

[ninenot]

05/08/04: 1320 CDT, 57% say KEEP HIM!!

[RGR]

Out of curiousity, do you in fact own any firearms? What kind? Where in Austin do you shoot? What's your screen name on DU?
I do, in fact. Or did. I left them out at a friend's property quite awhile ago and we've fallen out of touch. I had a hand-made .22 single-shot target pistol with a super-light hair trigger and an interesting little tongue of metal that wrapped back over the web between the thumb and forefinger. I inherited it from an uncle I never met. I guess I oughta go retrieve it one of these days. I also had a cheap Italian p.o.s. .380 pistol that jammed all the time. I used to go out there every month or so and shoot those guns, as well as my friend's .357 S&W with his home-loaded bullets. What a blast, literally.

I haven't hooked up with anyone in Austin to go shoot with. I go to Carter Country north of Houston every once in a while with a friend who lives there. He's got an AK-47 and something else, I forget. I tried to post a pic of me there, but it doesn't appear in the preview so I won't know if it worked until I actually post this.

I've never been on DU.

Now ... If none of this were true, would it somehow undermine anything I have posted? I got the impression your questions were some kind of test. Did I pass? :D

[SkunkApe]

RGR, its common among some here to attack the messenger and not the message. Just try posting an article from a "liberal" website. Or anything from the mainstream media, for that matter. If you don't worship Bush, the Republicans, and the war on Iraq, you'll need a pretty thick skin to hang out here.

[RGR]

RGR, its common among some here to attack the messenger and not the message. Just try posting an article from a "liberal" website. Or anything from the mainstream media, for that matter. If you don't worship Bush, the Republicans, and the war on Iraq, you'll need a pretty thick skin to hang out here.
Don't I know it! :rolleyes: I'm growing skin as fast as I can!

[armabill]

Voted NO.

[MarkDido]

Rumsfeld is SECDEF when some soldiers far down the food chain abuse and humiliate some Iraqi prisoners and the Democrats call for his head on a stick...

John Kerry ADMITS to commiting war crimes during his 1971 Senate testimony, and the Democrats want to make HIM president.....


To paraphrase Ripley in "Aliens" "Did IQ's drop suddenly while I was away?"

[Unlucky]

RGR, its common among some here to attack the messenger and not the message. Just try posting an article from a "liberal" website. Or anything from the mainstream media, for that matter. If you don't worship Bush, the Republicans, and the war on Iraq, you'll need a pretty thick skin to hang out here.

But he just posted a bunch of leftist propaganda claiming that the ordinary left-wing news media (or that portion owned by Disney, controlled by democratic sympathizer Michael Eisner) is "too conservative," as demonstrated by lone "conservative" John Stossel, who, in spite of nearly every other ABC journalist of note being left to hard-left, doesn't have an opposing viewpoint. :rolleyes: Additionally, it is claimed that Disney, by carrying conservative talk show hosts that actually have a listening audience and can generate revenue, shows a right-wing bias that can only be countered by losing money on tripe like "Air America," which needs to PAY for air-time. If you want subsidized leftist radio, listen to NPR.

[Hawkmoon]

Rummy tried to do this was on the cheap. He had to decide what was important and what wasn't. He chose on the basis of the must urgent and the less urgent bit him in the butt. Welcome to the world of transformation. It ain't gonna work long term in the corporate world and it ain't gonna work long term in the military. The prison scandal is merely the first in a long list of Charlie Foxtrots coming our way.

Well said. In fact, the entire post was well stated, but this pretty well sums it up. Rumsfeld IS in fact responsible for the prison screw-up. Not in the direct sense, like he gave the order, or was on the scene and didn't stop it when he saw it. He is responsible because he created a military made up of weekend warriors. I don't say that to demean the individuals, because National Guard and Reserve GIs bleed and die just as much as regular Army, but rather because he set up a structure that guaranteed that the war would be fought by an army of which big chunks were not properly trained for their tasks.

Bottom line is, we simply don't have enough people on the ground in Iraq, and the reason we don't have enough people in Iraq is that we don't have enough people. Period. And many of the people on the ground don't know what to do. One of the NCOs in the prison has been reported to have asked multiple times for guidance regarding treatment of prisoners. If this is true and not just a CYA story on his part, it demonstrates the point -- we called people up and threw them into Iraq without sufficient training, without sufficient support, and in many cases without sufficient or adequate equipment.

The local chain of command at and just above the prison did not cause this ... they were victims as much as the individual soldiers who should have known better, but obviously didn't.

[Malone LaVeigh]

we don't have enough people Enough people for what? I think we have more than enough for defending ourselves. Not enough to build an empire, maybe, but that's a good thing.

[Tamara]

Now ... If none of this were true, would it somehow undermine anything I have posted? I got the impression your questions were some kind of test. Did I pass?:D

Just something I was musing about. Zundfolge apparently had the same idea (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80687).



SkunkApe,

RGR, its common among some here to attack the messenger and not the message. Just try posting an article from a "liberal" website. Or anything from the mainstream media, for that matter. If you don't worship Bush, the Republicans, and the war on Iraq, you'll need a pretty thick skin to hang out here.

Droll. Yup, that's me: GOP Stool Pigeon Tamara. Have you ever bothered reading anything I have ever typed on this site?

Personally, I can think of a lot of reasons to ash-can Rumsfeld, but the actions of some Spec 4 in a Third World basement aren't among them. Anyhow, as a brief recap of the almost 8000 posts you haven't read, I'll not be voting GOP (again), I think the idea to go into Iraq in the first place was a cock-up, and I think Bush is a mediocre president with a poor grasp of the Constitution.

I won't be sneaking around registering at Birdwatching.Com to spread the news though, 'cause, see, I don't birdwatch. ;)

[SkunkApe]

Droll. Yup, that's me: GOP Stool Pigeon Tamara. Have you ever bothered reading anything I have ever typed on this site?

Well, she got me me there. I guess I should have thought twice and posted once. Tamara has written some of the most logical and well-written posts on this board.

[CannibalCrowley]

Hawkmoon He is responsible because he created a military made up of weekend warriors. I don't say that to demean the individuals, because National Guard and Reserve GIs bleed and die just as much as regular Army, but rather because he set up a structure that guaranteed that the war would be fought by an army of which big chunks were not properly trained for their tasks. Not properly trained? No, they knew what they were doing was wrong and chose to ignore it. In fact some of the soldiers normally work as prison guards. If guards who work in our own prisons aren't trained to guard prisoners, that truly says something about our prison system.

[Art Eatman]

Hawkmoon, do you really believe Rumsfeld created this army of weekend warriors? Really believe that?

You're mistaken.

The move toward use of the NG and the Reserves began long ago. Try thinking "the 1970s". It was notably accelerated after the demise of the Soviet empire, particularly in the 1990s.

I leave it to your own research as to who held the positions of President and Sec/Def during the 1990s. :)

Art

[CZ52GUY]

I thought at THR we tried not to feed the trolls...

...the ignore list is a wonderful feature...a couple of trolling anti's I can add.

CZ52'

[Michigander]

Hawkmoon, do you really believe Rumsfeld created this army of weekend warriors? Really believe that?

You're mistaken.

I was going to ask about that. I couldn't figure out how Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld would have been able to pull that off in such a short time.

[M1911Owner]

I won't be sneaking around registering at Birdwatching.Com to spread the news though, 'cause, see, I don't birdwatch.Sounds like Tam needs more shotguns! ;) :evil: