why no head shots?


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buy guns
May 7, 2004, 03:46 PM
everytime ive seen targets, which hasnt been very many times, only the torso is divided up into sections while the head isnt. why is this? i imagine just about everyone here uses their guns mainly for self defense and to me it would make sense to practice head shots along with the torso.

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J Miller
May 7, 2004, 03:51 PM
buy guns,

On the face of it you theory sounds good, but in an actual shooting situation it is very hard to hit a small moving target. And the torso is big and centered and filled with vital organs to damage or destroy.

Try this sometime. Go out shooting and get set up. Have someone watch your stuff. Then take off running and run till your out of breath and your heart is pounding. Then come back to the range and see how easy it is to hit that head?
Better yet would be trying to hit a moving target after your run.

Basically the torso is much easier to hit when you are scared wittless.

Joe

Logan5
May 7, 2004, 03:53 PM
You need the head intact to test for rabies. Otherwise, they give you all those shots. ;)

boofus
May 7, 2004, 03:57 PM
Good idea. You should always practice head shots in case the zombies come after you. Torso shots won't stop em. :neener:

You'd need to run a few laps around the range and then take a dump in your pants before you shoot to properly simulate a zombie attack.

Jayman
May 7, 2004, 04:07 PM
You'd need to run a few laps around the range and then take a dump in your pants before you shoot to properly simulate a zombie attack.

Nice. :neener:

The running part isn't a bad idea though, and groups always seem to mysteriously open up once everyone's heart rates are a goin'...

Sean Smith
May 7, 2004, 04:09 PM
IPSC targets have an "A" zone in the middle of the head of the target. I've seen some CCW qual targets set up so you get extra points for a small part of the head, too.

ocabj
May 7, 2004, 04:09 PM
I don't aim for the head. I aim for the eye. Aim small, miss small.

Smoke
May 7, 2004, 04:10 PM
I practice taking head shots. But as alluded to previously, in a real life encounter the odds of you hitting a bad guy that is moving is slim.

The Failure to Stop drills (2 to the chest, one to the head) taught a lot of places are nice drills but do you realistically think that the head is going to be in the same place as a silhoutte after putting two to the chest.

I'm hoping that the two to the pump puts the head on the deck. I can line my shot up then if I think it's still a threat.

DO what J Miller said. Good post J.

Smoke

fix
May 7, 2004, 04:15 PM
I don't aim for the head. I aim for the eye. Aim small, miss small.

I go for the upper lip myself.

buy guns,

You don't practice head shots? :confused:

buy guns
May 7, 2004, 04:20 PM
You don't practice head shots?


i dont practice at all. i dont own a gun yet :(.

stevelyn
May 7, 2004, 04:38 PM
One of the COF in our qualifications is to do timed failure-to-stop drills at the 2 yrd line. The drill is two chest and one head shot. Head shots aren't taken any further away than that because of the likelihood of a miss under stress at longer ranges. We use official IPSC targets with an "A" zone across the eyes.
Although not a part of quals, I have my guys do shove and shoot drills from the "interview" (about arms length and bladed from the target) position. The drill is to aggressively shove the target away from you to get distance while drawing the weapon, pulling your weak hand into your chest and firing from "rock" (hip) position. They also get to shoot from weird postions on the ground to get used to the idea they may not be standing square toe-to-toe with a threat when needing to use lethal force.

M2 Carbine
May 7, 2004, 05:35 PM
During ALL practice shootings with friends someone calls, "only head shots count".:)

http://img44.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/Hostage_target.jpg

http://img44.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/KT380_3_yds_s.jpg

Chipperman
May 7, 2004, 06:00 PM
I practice head shots all the time. The above posters illustrate why they are important. The head may be the only safe target you have in certain situations.

redneck2
May 7, 2004, 06:08 PM
that kinda looks like my ex-wife (the one on the left, thank-you)

next time tap BOTH heads. Never know the trouble you may be leaving behind

:D

Cosmoline
May 7, 2004, 07:05 PM
The great thing about the Mozambique drill is that if the two chest shots worked, the head will not be in your sights for the third shot. Instead the BG will be down. It's my understanding the final head shot is a backup for very close range in case two in the chest didn't work.

Autolite
May 7, 2004, 09:56 PM
Hats off to the gutsy gal in the photo. How did she stand still with all those rounds flying so close to her head like that ???

M2 Carbine
May 8, 2004, 02:24 AM
"Autolite
M2 Carbine ...
Hats off to the gutsy gal in the photo. How did she stand still with all those rounds flying so close to her head like that ???"


She has been hit before so she knows how important it is not to distract the shooter.:D

That's fun shooting.
Sometimes the only accepted shot is hitting the gun or gun hand.

444
May 8, 2004, 03:08 AM
You should be training yourself to shoot for the center of mass of whatever is visible to you. If all you have is a head, you shoot for COM. If all you see is a foot or an elbow, shoot for COM. It doesn't matter that the head of a target doesn't have scoring rings. Your shots should simply be placed COM of the head.
In several of my Gunsite classes, Louis Awerbuck made a big point of shooting COM. Dispite listening to him say this numerous times, I found myself doing exactly what he told me not to. For example, when doing various drills, in my mind's eye I imgaine shooting for the area around the eyes. The problem comes about when the target isn't facing you straight on. For example the guy is looking at a 45 degree angle to you. Instead of shooting for the COM of what I can see, I still tried to shoot in the area of the eyes. This very well might result in a periferal hit. Instead of thinking about eyes and facial features you instead need to just see a mass and shoot for the center of it.

Nightcrawler
May 8, 2004, 05:22 AM
I wonder who that guy is, that got immortalized in that very common terrorist hostage target? :D

Treylis
May 8, 2004, 06:06 AM
You know, I've never practiced with a poster like that one, but I'd be terribly tempted to give in to my inner Keanu and just go "shoot the hostage!" while blasting away. ;-)

WonderNine
May 8, 2004, 06:47 AM
I shoot pop cans at 30 yards with my pistols. Does that count? ;)

Nightcrawler
May 8, 2004, 06:52 AM
You know, I've never practiced with a poster like that one, but I'd be terribly tempted to give in to my inner Keanu and just go "shoot the hostage!" while blasting away. ;-)

Funny story. Last summer, we were at Impact Guns in Ogden, Utah. I rented an H&K UMP45 submachine gun. My buddy had his Ruger P89. He had one of those hostage targets like the one pictured above, and was doing okay with it.

I said "let me try". "Okay", he says. With the submachine gun, ripped 25 rounds into his target, drilling the hostage more times than I hit the terrorist, but I got 'em both.

"I got him!" I announced, beaming.

"If I'm ever taken hostage," he says, "leave it on semiauto."

We laughed. :D

M2 Carbine
May 8, 2004, 10:58 AM
"Treylis
You know, I've never practiced with a poster like that one, but I'd be terribly tempted to give in to my inner Keanu and just go "shoot the hostage!" while blasting away. ;-)"


:D In the interest of getting full use from expensive targets the hostage usually becomes a bad gal before the shooting is done.

I like the small target the best.
It's on 8x11 inch paper, making the head about 1 3/4 inch.
It's a good challenge from about 5 yards. It's about like shooting the full size target from 20 yards.


The usual scenario is the hostage was on the way to buy you a new SUV, so you have a vested interest in not hitting her. :)

Each shot is a "win" but you still have to empty the magazine without hitting the hostage or missing the BG or you lose.

A couple weeks ago I was on a roll, not missing a shot with 2 magazines, with of all guns a Polish P-64 9x18.

I got a SUV, new pickup, P51 Mustang, Spitfire, Bell 407, Thompson, UZI, Barret 50 cal, Browning 30cal MG, 50cal MG, a million bucks and a million sent to the Fort Worth animal shelter.:cool:

The hostage was very rich:D

NavajoNPaleFace
May 8, 2004, 11:26 AM
You're going to start seeing more and more bad guys wearing body armor, particularly with those in inner city gangs.

The facts and statistics are beginning to rise.

Some are beginning to teach head shots and, believe it or not, groin shots with the idea a good solid hit in the groin is going to produce a lot of bleeding, if nothing else.

Just my thoughts.

Pumpkinheaver
May 8, 2004, 12:13 PM
2 shots to the head, if ineffective one to the head.

seeker_two
May 8, 2004, 01:08 PM
Why, in a Mozambique drill, is it just ONE shot to the head? If the body shots aren't working, I'm using the rest of my ammo on his head...:evil:


Realistically, if you can shoot a small group on the torso (or a generic bullseye), you should be able to shoot a small group in the head area. A stationary target is a stationary target---and a moving target is a moving target.

Get your accuracy down first, then start calling your shots. :cool:

Mark13
May 8, 2004, 03:31 PM
I think practicing headshot-type accuracy is good for just that, practice.

In a real world gunfight, most likely it will be very close, with lots of movement. You will instinctively shoot center of mass until your gun is empty, unless your assailant drops first. You will be moving, your opponent will be moving, and both of you will be shooting. The only head shot I think you would be doing is if both your guns ran dry and you stepped forward and smacked him on the head with your pistol.

Don't disregard my advice, I know what I am talking about, I watch COPS all the time, and that other one, Americas Funniest Convienence Store Holdups.

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