[Mil Novecientos Once]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3692741.stm

US lawyer held over Madrid bombs
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40126000/jpg/_40126085_1brandonmayfieldap203cred.jpg

Mr Mayfield is being held as a material witness in the case
FBI agents have arrested a lawyer from the US state of Oregon in connection with the Madrid train bombings which killed 191 people.
Muslim-convert Brandon Mayfield, from Portland, is the first known person in the US to be held over the attacks.

Newsweek magazine reported that the man's fingerprints had been found on a bag that had carried explosives used in the attacks.

Spain has brought provisional charges against more than a dozen suspects.

The 11 March bombings, Spain's worst terrorist attacks, are believed to have been the work of Islamic militants with links to al-Qaeda.

Mr Mayfield, 37, is being held as a material witness in the case, but there was no officials statement on his alleged connection with the bombings.

'No connection'

Newsweek said the lawyer had done child custody work for one of six Oregon Muslims convicted last year of trying to travel to Afghanistan to help al-Qaeda.

Reports say authorities searched Mr Mayfield's home and office.

Mr Mayfield's brother told Reuters news agency his brother had "no connection to terrorist attacks".

"I think the reason they are holding him is because he is of the Muslim faith and because he is not super happy with the Bush administration," he said.

"So if that's a crime, well you can burn half of us."

[Sean Smith]

Fingerprints on the bag o' bombs is pretty hard to explain away... :scrutiny:

[seeker_two]

Fingerprints on the bag o' bombs is pretty hard to explain away...

He'd need a good lawyer to do it...:p

[another okie]

Pretty easy to imagine how he could have handled a bag while doing legal work for someone, but he'll have a chance to explain, or at least I hope he'll have a chance. Maybe they'll just lock him away under Patriot Act for the next 100 years.

[burbanite]

He has a beard, he's guilty....

[itgoesboom]

Another Okie,

I would love to hear you come up with a rational explanation of how a family law attorney came into contact with a bag of detonators while representing a suspected terrorist against his ex-wife in a custody battle, in Portland Oregon, and the bag just somehow managed to make it all the way over to Madrid Spain, and was found in the terrorist's van, with detonators inside, right after the bombing.

Yup.....Sounds innocent to me. :rolleyes:

I.G.B.

Edited to add.....

Also, they don't have any connection between the Madrid bombings and Mayfield's client. His client pled guilty to trying to help the Taliban in Afghanistan. Still a terrorist, but one that was involved in a completly different part of the world, and was unsuccessfull there.

I.G.B.

[Standing Wolf]

That one lends new meaning to the term "assault lawyer."

[Warbow]

another okie said:

Maybe they'll just lock him away under Patriot Act for the next 100 years.

Can you please cite the text of the PATRIOT Act which would allow that?

[Baba Louie]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119282,00.html
FoxNews reported last night that as a "Material Witness" the US Gov't can hold Mayfield indefinitely and not charge him with any crimes, just for questioning purposes.
He was arrested Thursday on a material witness warrant and has not been charged with any crime, according to the senior officials in Washington. A material witness warrant allows the government to hold people suspected of having direct knowledge about a crime or to allow time for further investigation.
This should prove to be another interesting situation combining American Legal System (or lack thereof) with the War on Terror.

Assuming it true that 'his' fingerprints are those found on a plastic bag holding detonators in Madrid, "I'd" sure want to know how "my" prints got on that bag, or how "those" detonators got in "that" bag with my prints halfway around the world and I'd probably be singing like a caged canary if I were in fact guilt free... but to clam up... maybe something about attorney/client privacy privleges or Fifth Amendment rights...?

In the immortal words of Ricky Ricardo, "LUCY, You got some 'splaining to do!" Someone does.

[feedthehogs]

This conspiracy theory that everyone unhappy with the current administration is being targeted belongs in a hollywood movie.


You lay with flea ridden dogs, your bound to pick some up.

[hillbilly]

This guy will be innocent until proven guilty.

And I understand the concerns some immediately expressed over the Patriot Act.

But isn't anyone else troubled by the fact that this guy is a native-born US Citizen who could probably pass any background or profiling check of any kind, and his fingerprints are literally ON equipment used in the Madrid train bombings?????

If you search my posts, you'll find a link to an English newspaper article titled "Terror on the Dole."

It's about Muslims born and raised in the UK who are burning for jihad in London. They are praying to Allah for a nuclear or chemical or biological strike on London to kill hundreds of thousands.

They are English-born, speak the language, live in and know the culture. They would be impossible to detect and stop. And under England's legal system, even after voicing their goals and wishes in public, there is nothing that can be legally done against them.

This guy is a lawyer, and based on his appearance in the photo, no one would ever look at him and wonder whether or not he's an Islamic terrorist.

How long will it take for the reality to sink in that we are in a cultural and religious war that has the potential for destruction unimagined in history?

All it takes is for one militant to get one cannister of a chemical weapon, or one small nuke, or one good container of a virulent biological agent across our porous borders.

They've already killed more Americans in one strike than were killed in the attack on Pearl Harbor. And all they needed to do it was a few box cutters.

How long will it take for us to figure out that the stakes are quite literally either the survival of western style democracies or militant Islam. At then end of this war, one will be left bloodied but standing and the other will be effectively broken and shattered.

Who's your money on?

Everywhere I look I see newspaper articles in which militant Islamists tell us by their words and their actions that their goal is our complete destruction.

But everywhere I look I see Americans who seem completely oblivious to the fact that we are even at war, much less involved in a war for our survival.

hillbilly

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

But isn't anyone else troubled by the fact that this guy is a native-born US Citizen who could probably pass any background or profiling check of any kind, and his fingerprints are literally ON equipment used in the Madrid train bombings?????

Yes

[greyhound]

I have no truck with those that say that attacking Iraq was not part of the WOT, its a valid opinion.

I am worried, though, that there are some who don't believe the is or should be a War on terror.

Like hillbilly said, this guy probably has a background clean as a whistle.
What to we do to combat people like this in our very midst?

[Delmar]

What to we do to combat people like this in our very midst?

Unfortuately, there's not really a whole lot you can do, unless you are lucky enough to catch them in the act of placing a bomb or other violent act, or they are stupid enough to say things like "I don't want to learn how to take off or land, just fly the airplane."

Commercial passenger aircraft are not safer because of taking nail clippers and knitting needles away from little old ladies-they are safer due to the vigilance of the passengers. I think the same vigilance in our daily lives does far more than what the government can do-after all, we be amongst em!

[Cal4D4]

"Muslim-convert Brandon Mayfield"

Another peaceful muslim with ties of some sort to a heinous act of terrorism. All he really wants is to bring the love and grace of Allah to the infidels.:barf:

[J. Garand]

"How long will it take for us to figure out that the stakes are quite literally either the survival of western style democracies or militant Islam. At then end of this war, one will be left bloodied but standing and the other will be effectively broken and shattered." (Quote from hillbilly)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love this board! It is so refreshing to read people that see reality for what it is....real....
hillbilly has this absolutly correct. anyone who wants to dissent is free to do so.(thanks to our great country) but..at the end of the day, "one will be left standing".
Excellent post.

[longeyes]

Hillbilly, you are right.

And I'm betting, in the end, on us.

We are headed toward national convulsion. Unavoidable.

[wingman]

How long will it take for the reality to sink in that we are in a cultural and religious war that has the potential for destruction unimagined in history?

We are so anxious to be pc that we forget much of the world would delight
in seeing America go down, my thought is will we wake up in time.:(

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Our PC desensitization is already occurring. Get the popcorn and pull up a chair.

[ravinraven]

Hillbilly is on the money. This is a religious war we are in. Make no mistake about it. The gov't doesn't want to say so. Probably it shouldn't say so. But, we the people, should KNOW so.

But, if we lose and Islam takes over, the bright side is that all this silly arse women's lib nonsense will come to a screeching halt and the feminazis will be quiet and out of sight.

I wonder why this guy Mayfield converted? Women's lib?? Feminazis??

rr

[longeyes]

The real question for each of us to ask ourselves (male posters only) is how good do we look in a beard and burnoose and do we all really want to be Bedouin warriors with waving scimitars and flashing white teeth?

Yeehawwwww!

[R.H. Lee]

I wonder why this guy Mayfield converted?

Because at his core, he's a self-loathing leftist. It has nothing to do with any "religious" conviction. Islam is just the next mutation of this virulent strain because of its potential for destruction.

[Sean Smith]

What is intersting is that essentially ZERO U.S. citizens who were raised as Muslims have been involved in high-profile terrorist attacks. On the other hand, lots of American-born converts have been directly involved in or implicated in terrorist attacks... and there are alot fewer of the latter than the former. So the rate of nuttiness is much higher in the converts than the immigrants/2nd+ generation Muslims. Millions of people immigrated to the U.S. and brought Islam with them, and they aren't blowing stuff up, but Buffy and Chad who were raised by unreconstructed hippies and convert to Islam are turning out to be quite the nutjobs.

Of course, foreign Muslims want to blow us up by the millions, but that is a different story.

[Sean Smith]

Assan Akbar (original name: Mark Fidel Kools), soldier in the 101st who attacked a bunch of other soldiers with grenades in Iraq. Killed 1 and injured 15. Apparently converted to Islam in California.

John Allen Mohommed (original name: John Allen Williams), ex-soldier and convert to Islam who was the DC "sniper." Found guilty & sentenced to death.

Captain James Yee, converted to Islam in Syria, accused of Espionage, looks like JAG botched their case and went for some lesser included offences instead, then gave up. Oddly enough, was big into adultery and downloading internet porn using government computer networks.

Add Ryan G. Anderson (aka Amir Talhah), currently serving soldier and recent convert to Islam who apparently tried to sell secrets to Al-Qaeda.

Now add Brandon Mayfield, whose fingerprints were allegedly found on a bag used to carry the Madrid bombing's bombs around.

EDITED TO ADD: John Walker Lindh, "The American Taliban, "a/k/a "Suleyman al-Faris," a/k/a "Abdul Hamid"
:barf:

[RatFink]

Don't forget John Walker Lindh, the American Taliban.

[wingman]

The question I have in my mind is, if necessary who will they fight for, there country or there religion. I think it's a fair question to ponder on, in ww2,
Japanese/Americans fought for there country as did many other races, however
when it comes to religion, I'm not sure. :confused:

[rayra]

I am. The jihadists will fight for their religion. They are muslims first.
Key Koranic verses call for 'lying to the infidels'. No oath with the West a muslim takes can be trusted.

Not mentioned yet is that this jihadist converted at age 22, either right before or right after his joining the US Army as a Lt. I'd like to read more about his duties in the service - what classified info was he privy to? What military experience with explosives did he have?

http://www.katu.com/news/story.asp?ID=67090


Another adjunct to this story - when arrested, he called a lawyer friend, Tom Nelson (who ultimately refused to come to his aid), who is a principal in the regional group of the Pro-Palestinian group, International Solidarity Movement (ISM). Tom Nelson identified himself as 'a friend and mentor of' Mayfield. ISM is the Left's terror-supporting group, active in the US, Europe, and routinely attempts to interfere with Israel's legitimate self-defense actions in Gaza and the West Bank. ISM has sheltered and assisted suicide-bombers in Israel.

Google results for Portland attorney Tom Nelson lead to (among others) these snippets -

"Other speakers will include Joseph Carr, an activist with the International Solidarity Movement who was present when Evergreen College student Rachel Corrie was killed by an Israeli military bulldozer as she protested in Gaza earlier this year; Tom Nelson, a Portland attorney who is involved with the International Solidarity Movement..."

"according to group member Tom Nelson, a Portland Muslim and an outspoken proponent of a separate Palestinian state..."

The mosque in Beaverton that Mayfield attends has been search three times now, due to connections to other terror(ist) investigations.

Another very disturbing incident that may be connected to this small group of jihadists - Sept 03, a bomb was placed on a OR-WA train. That train made a stop in Beaverton, OR, a hub of this group of people.
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/000066.html


Somebody whine about the 'Patriot Act'? Get real. There are thousands of people in this country RIGHT NOW, looking for ways to kill us all. THey need to be found and stopped. The only concern I have about the Patriot Act is that it be amended to automatically expire whenever a (D) is President.

[longrifleman]

This is another battle in a long war. Islam has been trying to conquer the world since it's founding and will continue until it succeeds or is destroyed.
The basic teachings don't permit peaceful coexistence. Only truces until the next attack.

One of our greatest weaknesses is our own tolerance to other religions. Most people simply can't concieve of anyone who can't be reasoned with.
When the teachings of sharia and dhimmi(sp) are pointed out they say "they aren't serious about that middle ages stuff". Yes, they are.
The secular humanists and athiest seem to be especially thick headed on this point.

I just hope when the time comes we can find another Charles Martel.
GWB ain't him.

[Waitone]

We are snagging fingerprints in the western US from events in Europe. We pat ourselves on the back for being really smart.

Meanwhile, our president (you know, the one who pledged to defend the constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic) makes public pronouncements designed to increase illegal border crossings. Up an estimated 25% in 3 months. We are now at a level of illegals crossing the border to the sum of 1.25 million per month.

Yea, good work DHS. Keep up the efforts to get the bad guys for Spain.

[hillbilly]

As some have pointed out, converts often have more passion than those who are born and raised in a tradition.

Who loves freedom more? Someone who is 8th generation American, or a freshly minted citizen from Mongolia or Iraq or some other country lately under tyranny?

Who is more passionate about guns? Billy Bob who's been duck hunting since age 6, or someone who didn't get turned on to guns until their 20s?

To use us as an example, how many of us binged on high capacity magazines and flash hiders and folding stocks before 1994?

How many of us plan on major binges Sept. 15, 2004?

It's not surprising that new converts to anything are often the ones most passionate about whatever they've converted to.

hillbilly

[rayra]

I wish and demand our borders be secured, but when it comes down to choosing between pursuing jihadists or cheap laborers...

Waitone - who you gonna vote for - the Pres that's leading the efforts to break up jihadists seeking WMD and the means to use them on us, or the presumptive candidate who would be EVEN MORE friendly towards illegals in this country?

[Baba Louie]

As of 9:15 PM Sat on FoxNews it sure is sounding like Mr. Mayfield is just a man whose fingerprints happened to match a few points on the one found in Spain, that he's ex military officer, loves his Egyptian wife and their kids enough to want them to learn and grow spiritually in the religion he decided to join after much research, he helps the poor who need legal advice, teaches classes... and is having a really bad Mother's Day weekend.

I'd be quite surprised to find that he's guilty of any nefarious behavior except maybe NOT "singing like a canary" to federal investigators, seeing as how he knows something about law and all.

It's both comforting AND disturbing that our gov't is that quick to act yet has the ways and means to hold such a person indefinitely without charging said person with a single criminal act.

Here's hoping that he is innocent of any complicity with the Madrid bombers and that we all remember not to pull the trigger too fast without clearly identifying the eeevil-doer as being guilty of a crime. I don't know, of course, but I don't think being a Moslem Attorney counts as criminal behavior... yet. ;)

[The_Antibubba]

Buffy and Chad are more eager to prove themselves because, despite their new-found beliefs, they are not secure enough in them to resist the fanatics who will never accept them.

Also, remember that Muslims that have emigrated to America have done so despite the overwhelming propaganda of their homelands against The Great Satan, and found that most of it was pure crap. Yes, Muslims face some discrimination from some Americans, but they don't suffer the horrors heaped upon them in Iraq, Iran, Syria, Africa, Pakistan, etc.

But Buffy and Chad don't know about the these crimes against humanity; they are infused with the light of their new identity, somewhat rebellious against whatever beliefs and practices they had before, and can't see past their noses the consequences of their actions-and yet, they know that the results won't be felt where they live. If Chad gives $200 to a "charity" that sends a Syrian to a training camp in Afghanistan, it isn't going to directly affect Chad, and it show others and himself the extent of his new beliefs.
Did you know that a great deal of the weapons and financial support received by the IRA in the late 80's and 90's came from Irish-Americans? There was quite a pipeline of support coming from Boston!


I hope this guy is allowed representation, or else we'll never know the story.

[Sean Smith]

Did you know that a great deal of the weapons and financial support received by the IRA in the late 80's and 90's came from Irish-Americans? There was quite a pipeline of support coming from Boston!

I always hoped, to paraphrase P.J. O'Rourke, that a few British laser-guided bombs would find their way to a few selected bars in Boston...

Also, remember that Muslims that have emigrated to America have done so despite the overwhelming propaganda of their homelands against The Great Satan, and found that most of it was pure crap.

Kind of reinforces my dad's theory that America is great because it gets the people smart enough to leave wherever they are at. :D

One thing to add is that alot of the converts are apparently kids of hippies who considered America the root of all evil anyway.

Actually, the Spanish Interior Ministry annonced that the fingerprints match, Saturday, May 8, 2004 Posted: 11:39 PM EDT (0339 GMT):

A Spanish Interior Ministry spokesman told CNN that Mayfield's fingerprints were found on a plastic bag inside a stolen van left near the station from which the three trains departed before being bombed. Inside the bag were the same kind of detonators that were used in the attacks, which killed 190 people, the spokesman said.

I'm not claiming the guy is or isn't guilty. But it still looks like an open question, and not just a matter of evil JBTs bothering a poor innocent soul for no apparent reason.

[Tamara]

But, if we lose and Islam takes over, the bright side is that all this silly arse women's lib nonsense will come to a screeching halt and the feminazis will be quiet and out of sight.

I wonder why this guy Mayfield converted? Women's lib?? Feminazis??

Sometimes I have to look at the top of the page to make sure I haven't accidentally clicked a link to knuckledraggertalk.com. :rolleyes:

I am. The jihadists will fight for their religion. They are muslims first.
Key Koranic verses call for 'lying to the infidels'. No oath with the West a muslim takes can be trusted.

Seeing as how the owner of the server this board runs on is an American-born convert to Islam, hopefully he will keep his oath with you to not ban you unless you've specifically broken one of the rules. Why don't you thank him for spending all his own personal time, effort, and money for providing you a place to talk trash about him, huh?

The only concern I have about the Patriot Act is that it be amended to automatically expire whenever a (D) is President.

Because an (R) would never do anything bad to us, right? They're our buddies! :rolleyes:

[JohnBT]

NY Times -

"A senior Spanish counterterrorism official said that investigators from Spain and the United States differed on whether the fingerprint on the bag conclusively matched those of Mr. Mayfield, who was identified to the Spaniards only as a military veteran who had converted to Islam. Though a Spanish police report described the forensic evidence as a match, the official said, F.B.I. officials had raised some questions."

[p35]

This guy definitely has some 'splaining to do, but it's premature to make him out to be a terrorist based on this. Forensic scientists talk about the "transfer theory"- that anything you come into contact with will leave traces on you and vice versa. About 80-90% of all US hundred dollar bills have detectable traces of cocaine (old number but I think it's still true). Does that make anyone who has one a crackhead?

In one article I read on this, a "Justice" department official made a comment to the effect that "We can pick someone up on a material witness warrant even if they haven't done anything, then they usually lie to us somehow and we can charge them with that." Did you know that if a Fed asks you "did you do X crime?" and you say "no", they can charge you with lying to a Fed? No one in his right mind talks to the Feds in this situation.

[Hawkmoon]

I find it more than a little frightening that so many of you, who supposedly espouse the rights enumerated in our Constitution, are so quick to be willing to suspend them in the case of an individual not even accused of any crime, simply mentioned as a "material witness."

Assuming it true that 'his' fingerprints are those found on a plastic bag holding detonators in Madrid
Why would you make that assumption? It didn't come from the article linked in the original post. That article said nothing about a "plastic bag holding detonators." It just said a bag. That's a rather generic description that covers everything from a gym bag to a briefcase to a small suitcase to a grocery bag from the local supermarket.

Is there a more detailed article somewhere that you read and I haven't seen, or are you extrapolating?

I thought this site was supposed to be The High Road?

[Tamara]

Assuming it true that 'his' fingerprints are those found on a plastic bag holding detonators in Madrid

Are we sure it wasn't the same bag Richard Jewell put under that bench?

Just asking... :uhoh:

[Baba Louie]

Why would you make that assumption? It didn't come from the article linked in the original post.
This thing called google search... it's amazing what you can find if you actually type in something :D

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119378,00.html

On Thursday, the FBI arrested an American lawyer, Brandon Mayfield (search), 37, in the United States as a material witness in the case.

Spanish officials say at least one of Mayfield's fingerprints were found on a plastic bag containing detonators of the kind used in the attacks. The bag was found in a van left near the station from which three of the four trains bombed on March 11 departed. U.S. officials said a single print of Mayfield's was found on the bag.

The newspaper El Pais (search) reported Saturday that Spanish investigators have serious doubts as to whether the print is Mayfield's. They have no record of him traveling to Spain recently, and experts found only eight points of similarity between the print and the one of Mayfield held in U.S. files because of his status as a former member of the Army. The FBI said it found 15 such points, El Pais said.

[another okie]

He may be guilty. I couldn't care less about the guy. But why don't we wait for a little more evidence than a fingerprint on a bag, not on the detonator?

One poster above seems to feel there is no conceivable way a fingerprint could get on a bag while doing legal work for someone. When I practiced law my clients brought records in in bags all the time, which I handled and then returned to them. Fortunately none of my clients were terrorists, as far as I know.

As far as the Patriot Act and what provision we're talking about, I guess that would be the same provision under which Jose Padilla, a native-born U.S. citizen, was held incommunicado and without a lawyer in a military prison.

[Cal4D4]

The best part is we can all demand he be summarily lynched and it shouldn't matter a whit because we are a nation of laws and I would hope he ultimately gets due process. The PA seems to suspend some of that on an emergency basis and is troubling just like the last half century of disregard for Constitutional protections on taxation w/o representation (it's just a use fee), RKBA ( it's not an infringement, just reasonable control), Congress in the loop for acts of war (it's a police action) and so on.

[carpettbaggerr]

As far as the Patriot Act and what provision we're talking about, I guess that would be the same provision under which Jose Padilla, a native-born U.S. citizen, was held incommunicado and without a lawyer in a military prison.
The detention of Jose Padilla is not authorized under the Patriot Act. His detention is in violation of the Constitution and Federal law.

An unambiguous federal statute and the U.S. Constitution both prohibit the executive branch from doing to Padilla what it is now doing. More than three decades ago, Congress passed Title 18, section 4001(a) of the U.S. Code. It states, "No citizen shall be imprisoned or otherwise detained by the United States except pursuant to an Act of Congress." .

http://www.cato.org/dailys/08-21-03.html

[Baba Louie]

Speculating some here... place yourself into the first person below...

I'm an attorney, married to an Egyptian, have converted to her religion, I provide legal service to anyone, some of whom worship at my mosque, someone in particular who, it turns out, is an Islamic Fundamentalist and has links to bad guys in the mid-east or other points outside the US (maybe). I may or may not have handled a plastic bag with files in it brought to me by said client, now said bag is found at the scene of a crime far away. A horrific crime. My country is at War on Terrorists who happen to share my religion and are willing to kill innocent people to further their cause.

Should I be able to identify said plastic bag as being one brought in by a client or handed to said client (maybe I had the bag and put his paperwork in it on a rainy day for protection, whatever)... am I violating the ethics or canon of attorney-client privelege of privacy by identifying that bag and linking it to that client?

Will I be disbarred for doing so?

Worse still, will my wife's family in Egypt or my family here at home come to harm should I do so?

Factor in, I am now in the custody of the US Gov't who has no obligation to release me or charge me with a crime since they're holding me as a material witness, not as an accused suspect.

I was raised in a liberal town, I've served my country, believe in education and the process of law, have never committed a criminal act, but have defended guys who have, I KNOW how the game is played... on ALL sides.

Ethical dilemna... what DO I do?

Conversely, put yourself in the shoes of the gov't agent in charge of trying to solve this puzzle... what do I do? How can I resolve this? The guy's not talking, I don't have much of a case unless he does. He's an attorney, he KNOWS how the game is played.

I'm trying to leave religion out of the decision making process, but I don't know if one really can, either one believes and has faith or one doesn't.

Whatever happens, happens? IT is the will of Allah and Uncle Sam?

I don't expect anyone here to answer, but I'd suspect that these thoughts would be running through my head if I were this particular attorney right now.

[Cal4D4]

Bend it the other way and put yourself in the investigator's role. I find a bag of explosive related items in an abandoned car near the place where 191 souls were just blown apart. A set of prints were on the plastic bag. No matchs in my database, but I throw it against an international one maintained by whatever police organization. The only match in the world is against a guy who has joined Islam - that religion common to most 21st century terrorists - has defended terrorists, hangs with members of a radical pro Palestinian group (the Palastinians have been known to commit terrorist acts), and worships at a mosque that several search warrants have been obtainable against for evidence of terrorist links. I think I would be remiss if I didn't pursue this lead. He should not be held 'till the second coming of Christ without charges, but we should look at the bottom of his shoes to see what he has been walking in.

[itgoesboom]

Another Okie,


You keep missing certain important facts.

Fact. Mayfield defended Jeffery Battle in a custody dispute with his ex-wife, who was also in jail on terrorism charges.
Fact. Battle has been in jail for how long? Well over a year.
Fact. Battle was arrested for trying to help the Taliban in Afghanistan. Not spain. Afghanistan. And he failed there.
Fact. When Mayfield defended Battle, Battle was already in jail.

So please answer my question that I posed earlier.

How did a bag, with Mayfield's fingerprints get over to spain, holding detonators? How did Battle manage, while he was in US custody, to send a plastic bag halfway around the world, where it was used in a crime?

So somehow, after being taken into custody by the FBI, Battle somehow turns over a bag containing fingerprints of his "innocent" lawyer to other terror groups, or terrorists, and more than a year after all this, that bag ends up being used to hold detonators that were used in a terror attack across the globe.

Yeah, that sounds probable.

His fingerprints link him to the terror group responsible, if not directly to the crime. That is why he is being held as a material witness, he has information.

Do you remember when Mike Hawash was detained as a material witness? Everyone complained, its unfair, he didn't do anything wrong, he's an innocent man.

Yeah, well that innocent man has now plead guilty to helping the Taliban. Funny how all those protesters stopped protesting after that.

I.G.B.

[johnr]

Here's my master list of links:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1132469/posts
-Portland, Oregon- hub of terror? Some Surprising Connections--

[Warbow]

another okie said:

As far as the Patriot Act and what provision we're talking about, I guess that would be the same provision under which Jose Padilla, a native-born U.S. citizen, was held incommunicado and without a lawyer in a military prison.

Can you please cite the specific text of PATRIOT which permits people to be held indefinitely? :)

[mvpel]

quote:
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I am. The jihadists will fight for their religion. They are muslims first.
Key Koranic verses call for 'lying to the infidels'. No oath with the West a muslim takes can be trusted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Seeing as how the owner of the server this board runs on is an American-born convert to Islam, hopefully he will keep his oath with you to not ban you unless you've specifically broken one of the rules. Why don't you thank him for spending all his own personal time, effort, and money for providing you a place to talk trash about him, huh?

Nowhere in that post was any specific individual mentioned, and the term "jihadists" wouldn't likely apply to anyone posting on this board.

As for the particulars, here's a recent quote from an Imam:

Imam Abu Hammid Ghazali says: "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible." (Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, The Reliance of the Traveller, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, amana publications, 1997, section r8.2, page 745)

The term for this is "taqija" - this means, essentially, "to dissimulate" and is used when serving the propagation of Islam or benefitting a Muslim compared to 'infidels' - the "praiseworthy goal." Lying to 'infidels' is officially acknowledged and is religiously motivated.

I have no problem with - and I expect that most people have no problem with - Muslims who disregard Koran Surah 5:51, to wit, "[b]elievers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another," among a variety of others.

It's the Koranic literalists seeking to impose Sharia law and the burkha around the world, the "Islamists" or "Jihadists," who should concern all of us who love freedom, Muslim and non-Muslim alike.

[mac41]

Guess all those who were calling for the beheading of Mr. Mayfield can read the following in dissapointment.


PORTLAND, Ore. - Portland attorney Brandon Mayfield, who was arrested exactly two weeks ago in connection with Spain's worst terrorist attack, was freed after Spanish authorities said fingerprints found on a bag of detonators were those of another man.

Mayfield's release on Thursday brought new scrutiny of the material witness statute, under which the attorney was held without being charged since May 6.

"It's a huge embarrassment for the Justice Department," said Michael Greenberger, a former senior U.S. Justice Department official who now heads the University of Maryland's Center for Health and Homeland Security. He called it one "in a long line of mistaken detentions."

The Justice Department has portrayed the material witness statute as a powerful tool to round up terrorists, giving authorities the right to jail suspects for weeks or months in complete secrecy.

Civil rights groups have said the net is cast too broadly, and innocent U.S. citizens are now simply disappearing into jails with no accountability, or right to mount a defense.

Grasping a Quran and a Muslim prayer rug, 37-year-old Brandon Mayfield was freed on the steps of the federal courthouse in Portland.

<http://katu.com/news/images/story2004/040520ouhnane_daoud.jpg> His release came hours after Spanish officials said fingerprints found on a plastic bag near the bombing site in Spain were those of an Algerian national, Ouhnane Daoud.

U.S. authorities had previously said Mayfield's prints were on the bag, which contained detonators similar to those used in the March 11 bombings that killed 191 people and injured 2,000 others.

Holding his wife Mona's hand on the steps of the courthouse, Mayfield called his two weeks in the Multnomah County jail "a harrowing ordeal."

But he took time to thank jail officials for having provided him with a green-covered copy of the Quran and a prayer rug.

In Arabic and then in English, Mayfield, a convert to Islam, recited the Muslim prayer: "God is great. There is no God but God."

The family was indignant from the start - "Either charge him or set him free," said Mayfield's younger brother, 35-year-old Kent Mayfield.

Within two days of his arrest, the balance seemed to be tipping in Mayfield's favor after Spanish officials began to voice strong doubts that the fingerprint found on the bag was really his.

Spanish investigators told the Madrid newspaper El Pais that they had found only eight points of similarity between the print and Mayfield's - instead of the 15 required for an exact match.

In addition, Mayfield's family challenged authorities to check his passport - saying the attorney had not been out of the country in at least 10 years.

But the FBI refused to budge, said two senior law enforcement officials in Washington, D.C., who spoke on condition of anonymity.

U.S. Public Defender Steve Wax said that a gag order issued by a federal judge remained in place, preventing officials here from discussing details of Mayfield's release.

It is not clear whether the investigation against Mayfield has been dropped.

Beth Anne Steele, a spokeswoman for the FBI in Portland, said she could not comment because "it is a pending grand jury matter."

She would not say whether the grand jury was weighing an indictment against Mayfield. Justice Department officials in Washington also declined to comment.

Mayfield's release has served to shine the light on the flaws in the material witness statute, said Robert Precht, assistant dean for public service at the University of Michigan Law School.

"It goes to show that it's subject to abuse by overzealous prosecutors who don't have enough evidence to bring formal charges, but use the statute to jail people who they have simply a suspicion about," said Precht, an expert on the statute and a defense lawyer in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing case.

Samer Horani, a board member of the Islamic Center of Portland, called Mayfield's arrest and subsequent release a stark example of the FBI's profiling of Muslims.

"Ethnicity doesn't matter. If you are Muslim you are suspect," he said.

In Madrid late Thursday, authorities said the fingerprints found on the plastic bag belonged to an Algerian, Ouhnane Daoud. The Europa Press news agency reported Daoud had a residency permit to live in Spain and had a police record.

"The extensive and meticulous work of the Spanish scientific police has determined completely that the fingerprint identifications are of the medium and thumb fingers of the Algerian's right hand," Spanish authorities said.

After his release, Mayfield went to his home in Aloha, a suburb of Portland. Mayfield's mother was there waiting for him.

"I'm just elated," said his 63-year-old mother, Avnell Mayfield in a telephone interview. "He's much taller than I remember him being."

His children gave him the gifts they had made for him - origami boxes, lemon cookies, a sewing project.

Samir, 10, and Sharia, 12, had started crocheting yellow and tan socks, but had not finished them in time for their father's surprise release. "Dad, you got out sooner then we thought," the 10-year-old told him, according to Mayfield's mother.

Tom Nelson, an attorney and Mayfield's legal mentor, said the FBI has a lot of explaining to do.

"Even if the angels came down from heaven and sung his praise, it wouldn't remove this stain," said Nelson. "We need to think now of how we get back to normal - what is this going to do to his long-term client base?"

[ravinraven]

You sound like my ex-wife.

Actually I filed my knuckles so they don't drag any more. But it was a "drag" if you'll pardon the pun.

rr

[org]

Richard Jewell. Instead of owning up to the error the FBI stonewalls. Didn't work then, isn't gonna work now. Wonder how long before the lawsuit is filed? It can't be soon enough.

[Tamara]

Are they sure those weren't Richard Jewell's prints on the bag in Madrid? :uhoh:

[another okie]

I was wrong. He wasn't being held under the Patriot Act, but as a material witness.

[p35]

The only reason this guy's free now is that the Spaniards redid the fingerprint work and discovered that the fingerprints weren't his after all. We all know how eager the Feebs are to own up to mistakes like this. If it wasn't for the Spaniards, he would probably be spending another six months to a year in jail before charges were dropped with some face saving excuse about "he's probably guilty but we have to protect our secrets."

Things have come to a sorry state when an American has to hope for a foreign government to protect him from the "Justice" Department.

[ravinraven]

Now that we find that the lawyer was "jewelled" I have to ask what kind of a coincidence is it that causes the fingerprints of some guy in where, Algeria[?] to be mistaken for the prints of this particular man?

If the prints were mistaken for just some old boy randomly fingered by fate, that's one thing. But for the mistake to snag a new convert to Islam who apparently had some connection to one or more of the terrorists is, to say the least, profound.

I can think up all kinds of conspiracy theories that could go with this episode. 1] Spain wanted to make us look foolish, 2] The guy had help over there trying to set up a situation where he could sue the pants of the feds, 3] his prints actually were there and Spain decided to change their story.

Something smells sortta odd. It smells expensive too. Methinks lots of money will be changing hands before long.

rr

[Sungun09]

I have heard that "fingerprinting" is more art than science. Does anyone have any professional experience with this ?

[steelhead]

The original fingerprints only yielded 8 points of contact and not the 16 that is usually required for a positive match. The FBI went ahead with 8 even though it was inconclusive.

As for the lawyer, he was already on a "watch list" (a known defense attorney for muslims charged with terrorism) and when the prints were run he became the perfect suspect with all the pieces falling in the right holes. Only trouble is that you can't see if the round pegs are falling into round or square holes when you operate in the dark and on incomplete info.