Ping!! Tunner, Old Fuff, SM and others


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bigjim
May 8, 2004, 08:56 PM
Tried a new load today. Its a 230 grain Flat point bullet. The end of the bullet after the ogive is shaped like a pyramid with the top cut off. Hoep that was clear enough. VERY ACCURATE load but........

Created a feed problem in my guns. The round being fed would tend to nose dive into the feed ramp and hang the gun up.

My questiojn is this. Would making the round shorter or longer be more likely to help?

Thanks
Jim

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sm
May 8, 2004, 09:18 PM
What is the current OAL of this new loading?

IIRC 1.250" OAL is the "general "accepted norm.

I would measure a known load that feeds/ extracts - proven in your gun.
Measure this new loading - adjust accordingly.

Now I will wait and see just how far off MY deduction skills are.

Oh...I am guessing you used known magazines, that have worked with known loads. Any difference in how these "seated" in mag. Like how JHP ::mag lips vs hardball:: mag lips .

I'll be the guy in the corner with the dunce hat on. :p

Dave Sample
May 8, 2004, 09:28 PM
This bullet shape is called a truncated cone. I have shot them out of a lead mold, sized and lubed by me, and had good results. The ones with the copper jackets had problems feeding and tended to nose dive for me. I just gave them away and am living happily ever after. I don't really know if they were seated too short or too long, but they were lousy bullets. I don't remember the brand either. Maybe the Copper Jackets did not like my gun but that was a long time ago. Sorry that I can't be of more help. Some shapes are difficult feeders. The lead molds were Saeco iron and they are really nice bullet molds for .40 and .45 caliber. They are reputed to be the best bullet shape for killing meat.

Old Fuff
May 8, 2004, 09:51 PM
Truncated cone bullets were introduced by DWM in Germany in 9mm Parabellum (or Luger). The small flat point tends to strike the feed ramp too low before the magazine lips have released the round. In your case I see two possible solutions.

As previously suggested, you can play with the overall length a bit, but if you seat the bullet out too far the cartridge won't fully chamber.

Or you can play with the magazine lips to get an earlier release.

I've used (cast) T.C. bullets in Colt Super .38's with good luck, but never tried them in a .45 ACP.

Jim K
May 8, 2004, 10:01 PM
I have shot 255 grain lead SWC (for the .45 Colt) out of both a Colt GI and a Norinco with standard magazines and with no problems. I won't say what the powder charge was, but well hit bowling pins don't fall - they just jump backward off the table.

Jim

bigjim
May 8, 2004, 11:14 PM
Jim Said: but well hit bowling pins don't fall - they just jump backward off the table. :D :what:

1911Tuner
May 9, 2004, 04:45 AM
Time was that Hornady was the only company that produced that particular bullet shape. I think Sierra also makes it nowadays. Seems like I read somethin' about its development comin' about in an attempt to make the 9mm more effective with the Hague Convention requirement for FMJ only...and they found out that it was an accurate little sucker. The same thing was done in .45 caliber...and it worked. Whether it thumps harder than 230-grain ball is moot...but it does penetrate a little more in a given medium, given equal velocities.

I've shot'em by the thousands over the years, and never had a feeding problem with anything but a stock GI throat with GI magazines. Try a cartridge overall length of 1.220-1.230 inch and see if it helps. 1.250 is
a little long for that bullet. The magazine release point in factory Colt
and Metalform magazines seems to be about right for that length.

Luck!

Tuner

stans
May 9, 2004, 09:00 AM
I have shot a bunch of these in cast lead format. Hornady suggests an OAL of 1.200" for their jacketed truncated cone 230 grain bullet and the same OAL works for the cast lead version as well. Longer OAL means the bullet nose may contact the feed ramp too soon and the round has no chance to come out of the magazine. Also, you may need to replace your magazine springs. Weak springs allow rounds to nose dive, with round nose bullets the round will frequently just slide up the ramp and continue the feeding cycle, but with SWC, TC, or HP ammo, the flat nose will hang on the ramp.

bigjim
May 9, 2004, 10:12 AM
Thanks a lot guys...

I am currently loading them at about 1.25 With a powder charge of 5.4 grains of 231. This is a full power load but still easy on the brass. I like it and it is accurate as you could ask for.

I don't want to go shorter with the OAL length if I don't have to. I do notice the rounds will tip forward and the many of my mags have been used for years and the mag springs are weak. I think I will order a bunch of the wolf replacement mag springs.

Thanks for all the advice fellas. I will advise on my progress from time to time. Buy the way I knew about the "truncated cone" but I thought those projectiles had a shoulder on the bullet. These Bear creak Molly coats do not.

Here is a picturehttp://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=987874

Dave Sample
May 9, 2004, 01:36 PM
Very good thread. I am sure many of you have a good experience with this bullet shape. I am not much for fixing something that works so 99% of the bullets that have gone through my 1911's and six guns have been cast, sized, and lubed by yours truly. I used a semi wadcutter out of Hensley and Gibbs molds for years and then switched to Lee 6 Cavity semi-wadcutter molds to speed up production. By using two at a time, I can produce about 1000 bullets in an hour. I have made my own bullets for 20 years because I never could afford bought ones. My casting days are almost over now but I really liked that part of my hobby. I have a box left of this shaope around somewhere and If I can find them, I will give you the OAL that worked good for me. I have shot very little factory ammo in my gun building days and making a 1911 that would feed my semi-wadcutters was the supreme test for reliabilty. If a gun will feed them, it will feed anything!

sm
May 9, 2004, 02:17 PM
Okay I'm learning something here. Thanks!

Now understand I have reloaded LOTS of shotgun shells, I had 8 reloaders up and running at one time. I let my buddy do the metallic. We just felt it more efficient ( time and space). I didn't have bullet shapes, I did have crimps, sizing...related concerns with SG shells... So I can relate ...


So IIRC the old standard load was 5.0 gr Bullseye, 200 gr H&G #68 LSWC ( sized .452) - right? I thought the OAL was 1.250. This feed for me from USGI, Old Colt mags.

Looking at the pic posted the trunated bullet is "less sharp" in the angles. So is this little of a difference causing that much of a problem? 200 gr vs 230gr?

OAL , mags or both the culprit?

Dave Sample
May 10, 2004, 01:59 PM
I set my Semi-wadcutters at about the same as mentioned. 1.260 is the magic number for most loads. I will shoot some pictures when I get a free few minutes.

1911Tuner
May 10, 2004, 03:48 PM
With the 200-grain cast semi-wadcutter commercially available, that OAL
will generally do fine if the throat and ramp are right and the magazine releases the round at the right time. Factory Colt, Metalform, McCormick
magazines do that. (Isn't that bullet an old H & G design?)

Once in a while, you'll run into a chamber that's a little out of spec, or the headspace isn't on the money, and the bullet shoulder will hit the rifling
before the round is seated. If yours is one of these, seating the bullet a
little deeper will usually do the trick. The throat and magazines will still
sork with the shorter round down to about 1.200 OAL, but you'll have to
reduce the powdr charge by a tenth of a grain for every .010 deeper
that you seat the bullet.


The truncated cone 225 cast bullets tend to do better when seated to about 1.220-1.230 inches. The jacketed Hornady 230s can be seated a little deeper at 1.200-1.220.

Luck!

Tuner

BluesBear
May 11, 2004, 09:03 AM
Using a round nose seating stem in your seating die, run a 230gr FMJ GI Mil-Spec rouind into the die.

Snug the seating stem down to the bullet. Don't overtighten.

Then seat one of your TC bullets using that setting. The ogive of the TC nose will now match that of the FMJ.

If you want to use the RN plug you're done.
But...
If you wish to use your SWC seating stem then you need to;

Change to your SWC seating stem.

Run the previously loaded TC round into the die and then snug the SWC stem against the bullet and lock it down.

With a good taper crimp, you ammo should now match the profile of a FMJ.
And they should feed just as well.



Profile is MUCH more important than OAL.

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