[Badger Arms]

While I'd seen the advertisements, I had never seen one of their guns until yesterday. I'm stuck in San Antonio (Beautiful City) and I saw an ad for a gun show at a Jewish Temple... alright, I went. It was a very nice show. There was Ron, who said he owns Arsenal USA and Global Trades. I picked up one of the rifles and I was amazed at the workmanship. We had a very interesting discussion and I had the opportunity to pick his brain. The finish on the rifle and furniture was impecable. The parkerizing all matched and was smooth. All of the parts were newly finished. Everything on the barrels was straight and lined-up with the receiver perfectly.

One thing that I did discuss with him was the assault weapons ban. SHHHHhhhhh. He did say that he is ready to assemble legal folding-stocked rifles rapidly and get them on the market. He wasn't too enthusiastic about his chances of being able to do it, but he was ready if he could.
http://www.arsenalusa.com/image39.jpg

[Tropical Z]

I wanna know what the real world price is gonna be on these bad boys.I'm guessing in the VEPR range.

[Badger Arms]

He had some at the show. Around $550 was what was on them. I think they are worth it, but I've already got my AK tastes satisfied for now. IIRC, the VEPR has to have some extra holes in its receiver plugged. I prefer the Parkerized finish over painted finishes or even powder-coating as some are claiming their paint is.

[SteyrAUG]

$550 is about right. The current ones have blond wood and NEW Polytech barrels on a Hungarian Receiver.

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0QwDeAuESI2WspxQy4GJhyH0DlHi8P1Q4fhgn8osaI1qnv7ghJS0yw3JdDDwFxKMT8oh7EDXZuIcrwPbddY9vMfeVOYsEPHNTjSnEyrllzzs/ak010.JPG

If anyone want one, just email me. I'm getting them in all the time.

[Bahadur]

Is the length-of-pull/stock length the "traditional" AK size or the "American adult" size?

[SteyrAUG]

American Adult if you bet the blond wood. I think the synthetic is Bulgarian.

[Badger Arms]

Is the length-of-pull/stock length the "traditional" AK size or the "American adult" size?I asked Ron the same question. He stated that it was the "Same as the Chinese gun" and that you'd "Get used to it." While I disagreed with him at the time, I did notice that they appear to be about the same length, but the Chinese and original Russian style guns had a severe drop. The new Bulgarian furniture he is selling on the guns is much straighter. The effect of this should be lesser muzzle rise. The length didn't feel bad to me even though I'm 6'3" tall. I know that some American stock makers are using a greater length. I don't think they are needed. My kids shoot the guns more than I do anyhow.

Notice the differences below:
http://www.arsenalusa.com/image46.jpg
http://www.arsenalusa.com/image38.jpg

[Badger Arms]

In case I didn't make it clear, the blonde, stained blonde, and plastic furniture is all made in Bulgaria. The way I know this is by looking at the sets Ron had for sale and noting the "Made in Bulgaria" inscribed on them. :)

[Bahadur]

... that you'd "Get used to it."Judging from the popularity of some American-made longer stocks, that is apparently not the case.

Besides, if we all just "got used to it," we wouldn't need a lot of improvements that have been made, would we?

In any case, I'd like to be the judge of what I get used to, rather than let the product manufacturer declare so for me.

[AK103K]

I have an Arsenal SSR-85C. It has the nice blonde wood and a great park job. Its the "prettiest" AK I have. It's also the longest stocked AK I have. The stock is just a "tad" longer than a standard AK stock, maybe 1/4-1/2". I personally think the standard stock is the way to go. All combat rifles are "short stocked". The AK is the exact LOP as a M16/M16A1. It looks a lot shorter than it is. The M1/M14's, and most of the military bolt guns are also short stocked. The "get used to it" comment is basically a true statement. Once you do get used to it, you'll wish all your "working" guns were short stocked. They are much quicker to shoulder and get on target, and are a lot easier to use when you have winter clothing on. Give it a shot, it's not costing anything, and I think you'll find you will "get used to it". :)

[Badger Arms]

While I was just qouting Ron on the "You'll Get Used to It" statement, I'd like to put my .02 in. On my pre-ban M-4gery, I installed one of the new, fancy extended 6 position collapsing stocks. When I first started using it, I liked the ability to put it out a bit further than the standard stock. Most of the time now, though, I slide it forward one or even two positions. I also like the ability of the stock to adjust and let my kids shoot with it. What I'll usually do is let the kids shoot the little gun and I'll shoot the AR-10 or L1A1. In fact, I have gotten used to shorter stocks. With a 1" extention, even my pre-Ban Chinese AK feels good to me.

[Destructo6]

The only reason I bought the 1" longer Kvar stock is that's all they had in a US-made buttstock at the time. I would have preferred the standard-length Chinese version.

The shorter stock seems to jump into my shoulder faster.

[Bahadur]

All combat rifles are "short stocked".Sorry - one size fits all humanity might do for the government, but doesn't do it for me.

Then again, I suppose if the rifle is worth it, I can always switch out the stock set (still, it annoys me that I would have to, given that the rifles were originally designed for much smaller bodies than typical American adult males of today).

[AK103K]

Then again, I suppose if the rifle is worth it, I can always switch out the stock set (still, it annoys me that I would have to, given that the rifles were originally designed for much smaller bodies than typical American adult males of today).

What, you mean people in shape without a belly and an extra chin? :rolleyes:

If you want a longer stock, knock yourself out, you should have what you want, its your gun. I was just pointing out something that is a fact, and seems to be misunderstood by a lot of shooters today, especially as it pertains to the AK rifles. I dont believe that the AK was designed for people of small stature. I believe if you look at the former USSR that they were pretty much a melting pot like the US. They, like us have people of all sizes. Size of the person really has nothing to do with it. If all you do is shoot from a bench, it really doesnt matter, you wouldnt know the difference or why. If your a hunter or soldier where quick snap shots are the norm, you appreciate the fact that your rifle has a short stock.

[Carlos]

(Homer Simpson voice)

Mmmm, Arsenal USA AK. :)

Didn't know that about the longer stocks. Damm, I am much more enthused about getting one of these now.

In fact, I'm getting a bonus this week and now it's narrowed down to - VEPR, G3 or Arsenal USA AK. Thanks for the info.

[SteyrAUG]

Carlos, VEPR is good but kinda funky looking if you ask me.

The so called G3 in that price range is Century Arms GARBAGE. If ever someobody give you one for free, make sure and give it a proper burial. It is a pipe bomb with a pistol grip. If you own a boat it does however make a interesting anchor.

Get the Arsenal AK. ;)

[Bahadur]

AK103K:
What, you mean people in shape without a belly and an extra chin?No, I mean people with access to a more nutritious diet heavy in protein and fat. I am not of European ancestry, but I am completely an American in cultural terms, including diet. I have neither a big belly nor an extra chin. I just happen to be on the tall side with broad chest and long arms. Unlike my old world ancestors, I got to eat lots of milk, cheese and meats.
I dont believe that the AK was designed for people of small stature. I believe if you look at the former USSR that they were pretty much a melting pot like the US. They, like us have people of all sizes.I don't know what the intention of the original designer was. But even though the USSR was a "melting pot like the US" its diet was never as good as that of the US. It's not ethnicity that determines size. It's a combination of INDIVIDUAL genetic factors AND diet (the average Japanese height increased by over 4 inches in the last couple of decades or so).
If your a hunter or soldier where quick snap shots are the norm, you appreciate the fact that your rifle has a short stock.First of all, I doubt that the AK stock was designed with hunting in mind. As for the rest, if that idea is taken to reductio ad absurdum, then why not have a 1-inch stock (or no stock at all)? Obviously, given a certain average size of a population group at a given time, certain compromises have to be made to fit just about everyone (fast shot or no). It makes no sense to say that the stock size has nothing to do with average body sizes.

An average American adult male of 2003 is substantially larger than just about any average person of 1947. The difference becomes even more acute if one considers people with poor diets.

So, if the market is made up mostly of American adult males, why not adjust the stock size appropriately?

Now, is the traditional AK stock adequate for me? Yes it is. But it'd be nice to have something more than adequacy. After all, the rifle supposedly has a better finish than the traditional AKM whose original finish was certainly adequate.

[AK103K]

So, if the market is made up mostly of American adult males, why not adjust the stock size appropriately?
The rifle is a combat arm. It was designed with that in mind. Look at any other and you will see basicly the same stock LOP. If it bothers you that much, change it or dont buy it. I think no matter what you buy in this type of weapon, your going to have the same problem and still be bitching. Even the M16A2 only added about 1/2" to the original length of the A1 stock, the one what has the "exact" LOP as the AK. In case you havent noticed, the M16 was designed by Americans for Americans, so the argument about body size isnt valid. You are always going to have extremes on both ends of the spectrum when it comes to size. If your on either end, well guess what, your **** outta luck when it comes to something that fits 95% of the rest of the people. Like I said before, its your gun, then change it if you dont like it. But just because your in the minority, dont expect them to accomadate you, when it works for the rest of the world.

An average American adult male of 2003 is substantially larger than just about any average person of 1947. The difference becomes even more acute if one considers people with poor diets.
As for this, I dont know where your from, or what the average size person is there, but most of my family is around 6' in height, some as tall as 6' 5"(that person was in WWII and Korea). The majority of the older boys fought in both WWII, Korea and Viet Nam. Last I heard, 1947 was about the time of WWII and Korea anyways. About the only "substantially larger" adult American male I see these days, is larger around rather than tall, and your right, poor diet is the cause.

First of all, I doubt that the AK stock was designed with hunting in mind.
If war isnt hunting, I dont know what is. Its also some place you need a gun that will come up quick and point fast, especially since this "quarry" tends to hunt back.

Look at it this way, you bitch because the stocks are to short, and I usually chop my hunting rifle and shotgun stocks down because they are to long for anything but hunting things like woodchucks. Maybe we ought to swap stocks from all our new guns from now on, huh? ;)

Back to the topic, Arsenal puts a nice AK together at about the mid range of price. They are one of the nicest looking AK's out there reguardless of price. They shoot ok, and the weakest link in them is the US parts. You may have the normal trigger problems associated with them. My disconnector broke around 200 rounds, but they sent me a new one and its been fine since. Even the little bit of "slap" it had is now gone.

[Bahadur]

AK103K:
The rifle is a combat arm. It was designed with that in mind. Look at any other and you will see basicly the same stock LOP.Except the LOP is not the only variable. Ergonomics has much to do with fitting different sizes of people. I think there is fairly near-universal agreement that the AR-15 design, whatever its merits or demerits, has superior ergonomics.

Besides, would your argument (that a military arm has to have a "certain" LOP) remain the same if people were, on average, taller by 6 inches and have correspondingly longer arms?

One more thing. While the original AKM stock might have been fine for shorter people wearing thick (extra bulky due to poor insulation material) coats in the Northern and East European winter, I don't go AKM shooting with a thick, bulky coat most of the time. Is the modern "American" civilian AKM being marketed to people who equip soldiers in the arctic or casual American shooters?
If it bothers you that much, change it or dont buy it. I think no matter what you buy in this type of weapon, your going to have the same problem and still be bitching. Even the M16A2 only added about 1/2" to the original length of the A1 stock, the one what has the "exact" LOP as the AK.See my response about ergonomics, above. BTW, I see the kind of request I make as "marketing data" rather than "bitching." Businesses that fail to accomodate to the changing circumstances and customer demands, and just go on calling them "bitching" do not survive very long.
In case you havent noticed, the M16 was designed by Americans for Americans, so the argument about body size isnt valid.So your argument is that the average body size has NOTHING to do with stock sizes, and that there is some sort of a magic LOP for all combat rifles no matter what the average physical attributes of a given population group?
But just because your in the minority, dont expect them to accomadate you, when it works for the rest of the world.Actually, in this example, I would be accomodated by another manufacturer that does offer an "American adult male" size stock set. But then again, that's the beauty of competition.
As for this, I dont know where your from, or what the average size person is there, but most of my family is around 6' in height, some as tall as 6' 5"(that person was in WWII and Korea). The majority of the older boys fought in both WWII, Korea and Viet Nam. Last I heard, 1947 was about the time of WWII and Korea anyways.What's your argument? That the average height hasn't increased in the US? Or that there is no average height disparity between Soviets c. 1947 and Americans 2003?
If war isnt hunting, I dont know what is.It can be, and much much more.
Look at it this way, you bitch because the stocks are to short, and I usually chop my hunting rifle and shotgun stocks down because they are to long for anything but hunting things like woodchucks. Maybe we ought to swap stocks from all our new guns from now on, huh?Or perhaps a clever manufacturer that actually listens to its customers "bitching" can take advantage of the market place to accomodate the needs of the customers.
Back to the topic, Arsenal puts a nice AK together at about the mid range of price. They are one of the nicest looking AK's out there reguardless of price. They shoot ok, and the weakest link in them is the US parts. You may have the normal trigger problems associated with them. My disconnector broke around 200 rounds, but they sent me a new one and its been fine since. Even the little bit of "slap" it had is now gone.I'll take your word for it.

[Wildalaska]

Just as an aside I was playing with a Type 56 today (full military configuration) and talk about short!!!

But it was sure nice to see that second notch on the receiver!

WildbalstemAlaska

[AK103K]

Bahadur,
I guess your just one of those people that wont ever be happy, even when what you ask for is available. Since the longer stocks are available, you can have your wish. Most people I know that buy an AK, do so because they want an AK, not something that has be changed to the point its no longer an AK. If you dont like its ergonomics, buy something else, nobodys forcing anything on you. There has always been bitching about them by some American shooters, mostly by those who have never owned or dont like them or both. I guess you fit into one or all of these catagories. If you think the AR is that much better, by all means, get an AR. If thats the case, I guess you'll be bitching about the stock length on them too as they are pretty much the same as the AK. I have owned just about every type of military type rifle out there. The stock length on everyone of them was pretty much the same. M1A, M1, HK91, HK MP5, FAL, AK, AR, etc, they ALL are short stocked. These are not rifles from one county or design group and they all seem to have the same thought in mind as to stock dimentions, and that is SHORT. Since there are probably at this point, billions of these types rifles out there, it appears to me the dimentions of the stocks must work for the "majority" of people in the world. Maybe you need to find another type of rifle to fit your needs and body. Or if you really want an AK, quit crying and put a longer stock on it, JEEZE! :rolleyes:

[Bahadur]

AK103K:
I guess your just one of those people that wont ever be happy, even when what you ask for is available.You guessed wrong. I can be quite happy when manufacturers pay attention to their customers.
Since the longer stocks are available, you can have your wish.Yes, you are correct. A number of makers and conversion companies do offer complete AKM-style rifles with longer stocks. My original question was for information-only regarding the stock on the Arsenal rifles. When I objected to "get used to it" attitude from a maker, this entire debate ensued.
Most people I know that buy an AK, do so because they want an AK, not something that has be changed to the point its no longer an AK.I wasn't aware that making the stock a tad bit longer turned it into something that is "changed to the point it's no longer an AK." Gee, if that were the case, I wonder what you think of the "changed" finish and fire-control parts.
There has always been bitching about them by some American shooters, mostly by those who have never owned or dont like them or both. I guess you fit into one or all of these catagories.You guessed wrong again. I do own an AK-style rifle and happen to like its simplicity and ruggedness quite a bit. But the "the customers are just clueless" defense is interesting.
If you think the AR is that much better, by all means, get an AR. If thats the case, I guess you'll be bitching about the stock length on them too as they are pretty much the same as the AK.I don't think the AR is "that much better." But I see that you jump to conclusions based on ONE positive thing I wrote about the AR-15.

I see strengths and weaknesses in each rifle. Either one is perfectly fine for the intended purpose IMO. The AR-15 fits me better than an AKM in the "standard" configuration, but it is by no means the best-fitting rifle for me. My favorite rifle is actually the Daewoo K2 (which, of course, has its own set of flaws).
The stock length on everyone of them was pretty much the same."Pretty much the same," eh? Can you define that for me? This would be interesting particularly since an inch or so can make a big difference. Furthermore, some rifles may have similar stock lengths and yet fit better due to better ergonomic arrangements.

BTW, I note that you conveniently failed to answer my logical questions such as:So your argument is that the average body size has NOTHING to do with stock sizes, and that there is some sort of a magic LOP for all combat rifles no matter what the average physical attributes of a given population group?andWhat's your argument? That the average height hasn't increased in the US? Or that there is no average height disparity between Soviets c. 1947 and Americans 2003?and instead berate me as "bitching" and "crying." It says something about your line of argument, I think.
Or if you really want an AK, quit crying and put a longer stock on it, JEEZE!I wasn't aware that I took orders from you. "Jeeze" or not, you are impolite.

[AK103K]

Bahadur,
For the sake of bandwidth and not to put these boys through anymore of this silliness, you win. ;)

[444]

Thank God



Maybe the reason the AK has a short stock is that it was intended to be fired with heavy clothing on. Similar to the use of collaspable stocked ARs and body armor ?

What is the story on switching out stocks on an imported AK. Someone was telling me something about the imported rifle having to have something like 6-7 American parts so you couldn't switch out stuff with imported parts........................... I don't know. It sounded crazy to me at first, but then I realized that we were talking about a gun law and anything no matter how ridiculous and stupid was possible.
What are some sources for aftermarket AK furniture ?

[BHP9]

As for this, I dont know where your from, or what the average size person is there, but most of my family is around 6' in height, some as tall as 6' 5"(that person was in WWII and Korea). The majority of the older boys fought in both WWII, Korea and Viet Nam. Last I heard, 1947 was about the time of WWII and Korea anyways. About the only "substantially larger" adult American male I see these days, is larger around rather than tall, and your right, poor diet is the cause.

Amen, Amen, Amen, Ak103. I could not agree more with you. When I was in some of the European countries I was shocked at how good a shape physically they were all in especially the poorer countries of East Europe. When climbing up a very tall hill which we here in the U.S. would call a mountain three 35 year old American men had to stop and rest several times on the way to the top while an 83 year old resident went right to the top with out stopping. I might add that I was the only one who kept up with him (I am 54) maybe due to the fact that I exercise and keep the weight down. I do not think that all the other people of the world are all suffering from bad diets or inferior diets , in some cases quite the opposite.

By the way I have long arms and have no trouble at all when shooting my Ak's or SkS rifles. I like them just fine the way they are.

[goon]

Does anybody have an accuracy report on the Arsenal rifles?
I know it is an AK, so I shouldn't expect a whole lot, but I would still like to know.

I know where there is an SA-M7.

[Correia]

You guys play nice now.

I look at it this way. It is your rifle. Fit it to you. If the manufacturer doesn't provide a stock that fits, find a different one. Everybody is different. That is the beauty of capitalism, if somebody wants it bad enough, somebody else will build it.

And just a point. Shorter stock doesn't neccesarily equal faster aquisition. Ask any hard core competitor (especially shotgunners, they are fit fanatics). Good fit for that shooter equals faster target aquisition.

Why do countries go with shorter length of pulls. I think I can guess some answers to this one. Because the little soldiers can use a shorter LOP, but a longer LOP is impossible to mount and get a good weld with. (especially with web gear on). Average size shooters can use either. Big soldiers will shoot the longer LOP better, but they can still manage the shorter LOP by getting real "snuggly" on that stock. Shorter soldiers are kind of out of luck as they only have so much adjustment.

So the contractor makes the shorter LOP standard. So the small, and average are happy, and the big guy makes due.

Also soldiers are going to be wearing webbing. Webbing is thick and takes up space on your shoulder. As do ruck sacks and other pieces of kit.

And Bahadur is statistically correct. People are getting taller. Not just here, but all over the world. It is a fact. No personal stories or anything, just look at the actual numbers. Heck the average Viking skeleton was just over 5 feet tall and they were giants in their day. Go to a museum and take a look at the suits of armor, and remember that these guys were the warriors of their day. Troops in the civil war were extreamly short compared to the average American now.

Yes there also has been an increase in average size since WWII. I wish I could remember where I had seen it, but I recall an Army report that detailed troop size during physicals from WWII to the present. The average is getting bigger.

And earlier there was some talk about size vs. fitness or strength. They are totally different things, not to be confused. I'm 6'5", and I've got some 5 foot tall Portugese dairy farmer ancestors who would have been able to whip the snot out of me on my best day. :)

[AK103K]

444,
Here are a couple of places that have aftermarket, or surplus furniture. You may want to look or ask around over at AK47.net too. As far as I know, you can have original stocks and handguards, but due to the parts count, the grip needs to be switched out. I believe the parts that are changed are the trigger, hammer, disconnector, gas piston, and pistol grip.

http://www.arsenalusa.com/

http://www.k-varcorp.com/index.html

http://www.ironwooddesigns.com/index.html

[AK103K]

Goon,
My SSR-85C shoots about 4-5" at 100 yards.

[444]

"... but due to the parts count, the grip needs to be switched out. "

That is what brought up the whole subject. A buddy of mine bought some kind of AK clone, I think it is Romanian but I don't know. The furniture is the standard orangish color except the pistol grip which is black plastic. Can he legally change out the furniture ? What if the furniture is American made ? This may be the stupidest gun law yet if what I think is happening is in fact happening. Is this stuff pretty much interchangable or does he have to worry if it will fit his particular rifle ?

[AK103K]

If he has the required number of parts, he can change and use non US made furniture, except for the grip. He can also use all US furniture, including the grip. Kvar, and others have different furniture, wood and synthetic, in black and OD, maybe some others. There are also other makers who make grips that look like HK and FAL grips for the AK's, if your into that. Here's a web page that has a lot of info about AK's on it that may offer some help.

http://linx310.nothingbutguns.com/

I'd also ask around over at AK47.net.
http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=77

[Bahadur]

BHP9:
Amen, Amen, Amen, Ak103. I could not agree more with you. When I was in some of the European countries I was shocked at how good a shape physically they were all in especially the poorer countries of East Europe. When climbing up a very tall hill which we here in the U.S. would call a mountain three 35 year old American men had to stop and rest several times on the way to the top while an 83 year old resident went right to the top with out stopping.You seem to be confusing apples with oranges. I was referring to HEIGHT, not fitness level.

Nepalese sherpas can climb frigid mountains all day on flip-flops, carrying loads of stuff while us fat Westerners struggle with our warm clothes and nice boots. But that doesn't make the Nepalese tall or well-nourished in comparison to Westerners.
I might add that I was the only one who kept up with him (I am 54) maybe due to the fact that I exercise and keep the weight down.Good for you. I was the only one out of my group able to keep up with the Nepalese on one of my trips. Hey, then again, I train about 3-4 hours a day doing Muay Thai, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Kali and cardio work (jump-roping and running 5 miles with my two dogs), and go climbing/hiking every weekend three seasons out of the year. I guess that makes me a supermen among my fellow big-gutted and extra-chinned Americans.
I do not think that all the other people of the world are all suffering from bad diets or inferior diets , in some cases quite the opposite.Again, apples and oranges. We Americans now live in one of the most automated societies in the world. Holding all other variables constant, people who drive everywhere and ride elevators all the time are less likely to be fit than people who walk and climb more (people from less automated societies as well as American of yore). That does not make the fitter people taller.

When I referred to a "good" diet, I meant "nutritious" - as in high caloric intake, particularly from protein and fat. Arguably, some of the foreign diets (Asian, Mediterranean, whatever) are healthier for the modern man who spends all day in a cubicle, but for a long period of human history, the vast majority of people suffered from limited caloric intake and scarcity of protein due to *poverty* and poor economic circumstances rather than by choice ("dieting"). Such circumstances persisted up to the recent time in many parts of the world outside the economically well-developed areas like North America, Western Europe and Australia where meats were readily and inexpensively available.

Correia:

Excellent points, all around.