[P95Carry]

We have a good thread running on commercial defence loads ..... but what are your views re roll your own? I guess this might in fact be better suited to the Legal forum because it seems to me that there are risks involved in use of homeloads for defence purposes.

I have for many years loaded (amongst many others) a .38 spl round with 158 cast SWC .. it shoots well and could be an adequate carry round ........ but ...!

So - if you had to use your homeload in a defensive situation .... what might be the repurcusions? (I daresay this subject has cropped up before ... sorry if repetitious)

[Zak Smith]

To get right down to it- Can anyone find a cite to either: a criminal case in which an otherwise "good shoot" was made "bad" by using handloads; or a civil case in which a "good shoot" was made, but the perp or his family got a settlement or larger settlement due to the use of handloads?

Some non-legal aspects of this question: Are your handloads as reliable and consistent as "factory" rounds? Have the terminal effects of your bullet been proven at the velocity it'll go with your load? Do you check dimensions of every round to make sure it'll chamber? Seal your primers?

regards
Zak

[P95Carry]

Zak . to be honest no - I know of know case specifically but - it is something that has often been raised as a ''what if'' question. making me always think that it is safer to use a commercial load (in case).

Re efficiency and reliability . good points . I should add that I do not actually use my own as carry ammo. If I did tho I would load to the same standard as I do for match rifle grade ammo ... attention to detail in all ways.

As for ballistics ...... well I have done tests with the 158 and found it hits hard and is very accurate ... tho no actual tissue tests per se. Much is also going on writings in articles over the years .. mentioning the ''usefullness'' of the 158 swc ...... sometimes tho with a hollow point.

[Steve in PA]

Nothing illegal or criminal about using handloads for self defense........as long as you don't do someting to alter the round.

This argument has been around for awhile........and I'm sure the BG's lawyer will try and make an arguement over what you are using, but my answer would be..........

1) I used a readily available bullet.......the same bullet that would have been in the "factory" round.......had I not chosen to make my own.

2) I make my own because its cheaper than buying factory.

3) I used a powder at or under a published load (name several reloading manuals)

[WESHOOT2]

If one can handload to a sufficiently reliable level one might consider optimizing a load for one's own carry gun.

Me?
Screw 'em all; I carry what I make :neener:

[TallPine]

I don't think it would matter in a criminal case (whether or not the shooting was justifiable).

In a civil case, the BG's lawyer is going to use anything against you that he can possibly think of, including the accusation that because you reload any ammo (even if not the ammo used against his/her client) then you are obviously some kind of weird gun nut ... blah, blah, blah. A good jury will sort out this BS.

I say use whatever you want, as long as you feel it is reliable and it is not some overpowered load or exotic bullet.

I like factory loads for defense just for reliabilty. I reload for target practice and don't bother with stuff like sealing primers, etc.

[Dr.Rob]

Screwing around one day with AA#5 and a Horanady 200 gr fmj flat point .451 bullet, I managed to create a load within saami spec that was clocking nearly 1000fps. I figured that would be a kick-*** 45 acp load in places where hollowpoints are a no-no. It wasn't +p but it was close.

However when I took a CCW class, the instructors ALL recommened FACTORY ammo, not because of legality, but because of quality control & reliability. I know as a reloader I've found the occasional primer in backwards, or burst case as I was loading a magazine/cylinder. You just don't see that in factory ammo that often.

Besides, if you bought 500 rounds of "factory reloads" (say from a gunshop) are you buying new ammo or not? Is a 9mm 115 gr "Venator" any more or less lethal than a 9mm UMC 115 gr? If you re-load Hornady XTP's to practice with, and buy factory XTP's for defense who would know the difference?

If I have to reach for a weapon, reliability is the first and foremost thing on my mind. What's yours?

[Okiecruffler]

Then I realized that my Stevens 311 that sits loyally at the bedside is loaded with a pair of hot #4's from my reloading press. But my pistols get carried with commercial rounds. It's a trust issue, my homegrowns are fine for practice, but I wouldn't trust them with my goodies on the line.
I think the whole legal issue is an urban legend that will be around for as long as people still have a pistol at the ready. Let's all hope that is for a very long time.

[Kahr carrier]

Nope just use factory its easier.:)

[Riphalman]

I agree with Okie. My handloads are for practice. I've been using my loads for practice and range work for over 20 years and I've got plenty of confidence in them...and me. But, I'll wait til I run out of commercial loads before I use them "for all the marbles."

[P95Carry]

Thx for the input guys ........ seems then the legal aspects might be over rated - and that in fact reliability is the key issue.

On that note I would mention that .. I would happily use my homeloads for 38spl or .357 .. but would stick to factory for 9mm (or .45 if I used it) .. the reason there being the headspacing issue and feed etc.

I reload 9mm a lot . and in fact cannot remember the last ''dud'' - not with a boxer case.... I have to go way back to when I used berdan primers and now and again they were faulty. I am tho aware of the possibility of a misfeed due to resizing the case etc .. so - as I said, factory there.

38 is different .. I load on a turret press.... so hardly ''automated'' and IIRC, I have not had a failed 38 or 357 (using good components) over many years. I expect them to work and they do.

I may well switch to own loads for .38 in summer but as I have factory left and spare, will continue with that for a while yet.

[Steve in PA]

Since I'm a LEO, I am required to carry dept issued or approved ammo in all my guns......that I would carry. If it was just a "home" gun.....I'd stuff it with my reloads. I have total confidence in my hanloads as far as firing.......if you don't.......then there is something wrong.

Nothing males factory ammo any more reliable than home made stuff........you can get a misfire, dud primer......no powder just as easy from them.

[Edward429451]

Thinking about this, I realize that my semi-autos are loaded with factory Hydra shocks, my revolvers with tailored reloads.

I can get what I want in factory auto defense rounds but not in revolver rounds. Legality never entered the thought process.

[Standing Wolf]

Sheriff Jim Wilson of Shooting Times mentions hand-loaded ammunition in the current issue. I've always carried factory loads because of legal issues, only to discover there's apparently no legal history one way or a dozen others.

Amazing!

[sm]

Here the speil from CCW instructors are to use factory loaded JHP.
Don't recall any cases to cite ...think perhaps a lot has to do with a litigatious society.

That said, I believe in gun fit, reliability of platform and ammo.

Going against my instructor friends-and- my experience in loading shotshells when competed-and- my only lost birds during competiton were factory rounds...

If the shoot is good--the shoot is good.

Object is to survive, I say use whatever works reliably in a platform that allows accurate quick hits...

[Strings]

...although I currently can't CCW (hopefully this year!), I would prefer handloads to factory. Reason being that I use the handloads for practice, and know where they hit. Yes, I COULD go through all the fun of tailoring a handload to hit and feel like brand X, but it's easier to simply stick to handloads...

[M1911]

To get right down to it- Can anyone find a cite to either: a criminal case in which an otherwise "good shoot" was made "bad" by using handloads; or a civil case in which a "good shoot" was made, but the perp or his family got a settlement or larger settlement due to the use of handloads?Of course no one can cite such a case. Legal cases are typically cited when people reference an appeallate ruling. You can find appeallate rulings online. No judge is going to write an opinion that says that Mr. M1911 is guilty of murder because he used handloads. But that, of course, was not the issue.

What people are concerned about is not that a good shoot can somehow become a bad shoot because someone used handloads. What I (and others) are concerned about is an ambitious DA using handloads to try to prejudice the jury against me. I could see the DA saying something like this during his summation: "Factory ammuntion wasn't deadly enough for Mr. M1911. Noooooo. He had to handcraft his own, super deadly Dum Dum bullets. He was just itching to kill someone, yadda, yadda, yadda..."

Now, you're never going to see that kind of thing in Findlaw. The only place you would find it is by getting copies of the transcripts of a bunch of cases and reading them. Not easily done. And if you did, you would not know whether or not that swayed the jury. You never know what caused the jury to decide one way or the other.

In East Texas, I suspect that type of statement by the DA would not make much headway with the jury. Here in suburban Boston, with a jury full of soccer moms who know that all guns are bad and people who own guns are wackos, I suspect that kind of argument could well help the DA paint me in a bad light. Would that alone turn a good shoot bad? Of course not. But in a marginal case, it might be one more straw on the camel's back.

Is it likely that the DA would bring this up? Probably not. But factory defensive ammo is just as good (if not better) than my own, so I use factory for defensive purposes and my own reloads on the range. I'd rather not give the DA any more "ammunition" than necessary. Personally I see no advantages to using handloads for defensive purposes and one possible disadvantage. YMMV.

[Vern Humphrey]

If you shoot someone, youi're going to be sued.

If you don't handload, then you're "irresponsible because you don't practice" (and eveyone knows you have to handload to get enough practice.)

If you handload and used factory loads, it's because "you couldn't whip up anything deadly enough in your garage."

If you used handloads, it's because "you had to whip up something extra deadly."

[Pistolsmith]

I know of several local security companies that have recently been involved in use of deadly force cases and all of them use reloads as issue ammunition.
Massad Ayoob and some other writers has given ample warning to the opposition lawyers that they might have a case against handloads. They hire out as a defense expert witness, and like a psychaitrist, thjey can't cure you of anything unless they have first infected you with it.
It is nothing but a game. The opposition will find out that ;your Grampaw was once arrested for having a flask of bourbon during prohibition and use it against you if nothing else comes up.
When I was a LEO, i carried nothing but handloads. I used new nickel plated cases and copper colored primers and nobody ever knew the difference, including the ballistics expert and the prosecuting attorney. Answer questions with a minimum of words. Volunteer nothing. Forget a lot and refer to your notebook often.

[Edward429451]

. But factory defensive ammo is just as good (if not better) than my own

(tongue in cheek) Say, you have'nt been reloading very long have you?:D

[M1911]

I know of several local security companies that have recently been involved in use of deadly force cases and all of them use reloads as issue ammunition.That's a different issue. They're buying commercial reloads. That's conceptually not the same as a person reloading their own. That is, what they're using is commercially available.
Say, you have'nt been reloading very long have you?Oh give me a break.:rolleyes:

[blades67]

I roll my own Gold Dots, and I'll load my own Hydra-Shoks as soon as Federal makes the bullet available.

[Pistolsmith]

No, sir, it is not the same. According to Federal law, the company must supply the fired cases and the reloader can only reload the exact cases given him by his customer. He is not allowed to supply ANY cases. Therefore, it is precisely the same as reloading their own...which two companies I know of do regularly.
In cases I've witnessed, origin of the ammunition has NEVER ben brought out in a criminal case or in the civil suits that always follow. Of course, the lawyers may be hungrier in other states.
I think you are refering to those companies that sell interstate to LE agencies and only have reloaded ammo. That would be considered "commercial". However, since they only sell to LE departments, it is not available to the public. Those that sell to anybody meet your criteria.But, I think you'll find lots of security companies and police departments have bought a Dillon 550 or 1050 to cut down on ammunition expense. During the '30's and '40's, it was Star presses they bought, since only .38 special ammo was issued.

[Edward429451]

Oh give me a break

It was a joke, guy. Its no trick to reload more accurate ammo than factory though.

[blades67]

It would appear that maybe it is for some.:neener:

[WhoKnowsWho]

I have read a couple of things about not rolling your own, that is why I mentioned it on the original poll. I guess I should have checked the history of cases or asked here, since this seems like a natural source of all info.

Seems like many do it. I think I would still prefer factory rounds even if I don't have the danger of being labeled the crazy loader in court. I think the companies, at least most of them, have put enough money and time to create a good defensive load for me to purchase. Though I wish Taurus would hurry and get the Hex line into 9mm. I guess in the meantime, I could make my own!

[Gary H]

I'm heading out tomorrow to shoot my 480 Ruger for the first time. It will stay with me while I'm in the woods and I have every intention of carrying my own loads. I don't know why factory ammo would be better than your own. I have been concerned after reading legal posts, but never heard of someone who was convicted because he reloaded. I've also had some CCI primers that didn't want to do their job.

[WESHOOT2]

I've seen the Hydra-Shok bullet offered by Midway (last year or two, way pricey).

Of course, the R-P Golden Saber and Speer Gold Dot are available, too.

[BHP9]

I would agree in principle that it is probably a good idea to use commercial loads rather than reloadsBut, But, But If you think they are more reliable you may be in for a surprise.

A good test is to select about 6 cartridges and throw them in a can of oil (thin oil) for a week and wipe them off and see if they fire. Many brands will not fire.

That is why I like to oil proof my own handloads or reoil proof my commercial ammo. It can get quite involved such as using mouth sealer or it can be left simple by just painting polyurethane varnish on the primers and round the case mouths.

[buzz_knox]

I once had a wrongful death case that was ultimately decided on whether one of the employee's we had in charge of the project cursed or not. If he did, the jury would believe he gave the fatal order. If he didn't, the jury would believe the grieving grandparent had mistaken our employee, for the contractor actually responsible for the order. The jury thought our guy didn't cuss, so they found that we didn't issue the order and weren't responsible for the death. You think you'll find any case law out there saying that cursing can lead to liability? Don't even bother to try.

The argument that lack of case law indicates no possibility for liability/conviction demonstrates a profound lack of understanding both for trial process and how cases are reported.

[M1911]

Its no trick to reload more accurate ammo than factory though.Agreed. But I've found that the premium defensive rounds have been just as reliable as my reloads and the accuracy differences were not enough to make me worry. Sure, they're not bullseye loads, but then, I'm not a bullseye shooter and I'm not carrying a bullseye gun. My reloads are better than some of the cheaper commercial FMJ stuff out there.

[Edward429451]

I've never did a semi-scientific comparison of my reloads vs factory accuracy wise but I carry the factory hydra-Shocks instead of reloads because of bullet design. The HS's have a good track record for stopping power. I load 90% lead bullets, so it stands to reason that the HS's would be better in that department.

[sm]

I hear what your saying. I'm not an PA.
Time spent as juror (more than once over the years), took a B-Law class years ago, consulted for defense, and been a 'expert witness".

Only thing I know for sure about court...nothing is for sure.

[Vern Humphrey]

Do the responsible thing, have your lawyer spayed or neutered.:D