[Monkeyleg]

There hasn't been this level of outrage on THR since the Trade Center attacks. Now it's bubbling up again. People want blood, revenge, nukes, hands, feet, eyes, and anything else they can exact or extract.

In a couple of weeks, this will all be forgotten, and it will all boil down to the same old "Bush isn't as bad as Kerry, or Bush is just as bad as Kerry, or vote your conscience by voting Libertarian."

A week after that, the general public will have forgotten as well. Just wait until the press unveils behind-the-scenes photos of Brad Pitt taken during filming of his latest hit movie.

I watched CNN at 6pm this evening, with a stopwatch in each hand. They gave eight minutes of coverage of the prison scandal for every one minute of coverage of the beheading.

For the first time in over sixty years, the American public does not have the will to fight an enemy who has declared war on us. The US public will only want war when it's being conducted in our own homes, and by then it will be too late.

Must be something in that Starbucks coffee.

[AnklePocket]

.

[kbr80]

For the first time in over sixty years, the American public does not have the will to fight an enemy who has declared war on us. The US public will only want war when it's being conducted in our own homes, and by then it will be too late.


Well said. Sad, but true.


Its hard not to want to lash out about this, I have seen the video, an old army cid buddy emailed it to me, it is violent to say the least. The animals that did this are not, IMO, muslims, or followers of any faith. They, and there ilk must be hunted down and exterminated for the good of mankind.

[billykaldrich]

I am suffering from PTSD tonight. I could just explode!I am deeply hurt and feel like crying but it wont come out I am also so f--king mad I want to ......something.Why I ask do we fiddle fart around. I am so concerned for our boys I dont want them to come home like I did in 1969 to a country divided. It still hurts so much.I live in the biggest liberal town in the U.S. Ratboy grew up here and all these libs in town make my blood boil. Got to keep it cool for now...glad I can vent here.

[Gary H]

Monkeyleg:

You have it right.

We no longer have what it takes to fight a war. This is sad. We must wait for tens, or hundreds of thousands more casualties on our own soil before many in this country believe that there is a threat. Unfortunately, when the big one comes, the response will be over-the-top and we will see this country go overboard in the other direction. For now..just sing songs of peace and hope those that follow the peaceable "Shiek" will sing with us.

[capt_happypants]

The enemy hopes that we'll commit genocide against the Islamist world.

My fear is that their hopes will become true.

If multiple nuclear devices detonate in the West, if car bombings become as commonplace in NYC as they are in Jerusalem, if VX gas turns railway stations into charnel houses, the public will not call for UN involvement, new alliances, or a round of negotiations.

They will ask for Armageddon, and our leaders will release the codes and awaken the fires of Oppenheimer.

The birthplace of civilization will become a nuclear graveyard. And we shall have 1,000 years of peace.

Not much comfort, if you ask me.

[Plinkerton]

I had no idea about the recent murder until a friend called and told me about it. I downloaded and watched the video, and even though the quality is horrible, it is an EXTREMELY powerful, and atrocious video. I didn't even know what to feel after I watched it. Crazy stuff...:(

[R.H. Lee]

None of us know the command and control structure of this enemy. Who can say if this was planned and directed from the "top" or if it was an errant unsupervised group?

First, we need to know how this enemy is organized and how they strategize and communicate. Unfortunately, I do not think that information, if known, is available to any of us. That is the reason for the divisivness over this war. Hezzbolla, Hamas, AlQaida and a myriad of others are mutual sympathizers, but are they coherently related?

We need a lot more information about the enemy in order to decide how to defeat him.

[Carlos]

I agree, Captain Happypants.

[morganm01]

That is if you accept that CNN represents the AMERICAN public.

[morganm01]

If multiple nuclear devices detonate in the West, if car bombings become as commonplace in NYC as they are in Jerusalem, if VX gas turns railway stations into charnel houses, the public will not call for UN involvement, new alliances, or a round of negotiations.

I disagree...here's why.

WE are the nutty patriotic right wingers here. Yet here we are deploring something such as you describe. If we were not going to be forcing that hand...who will? Not the bedwetters. They don't even have the guns:scrutiny:


And I am one raging gun-nut and American today.:fire:

[HBK]

I'm just having an unbelievably hard time with this. I guess I must be a real candyass, cause that video really crushed me. I don't even know how to describe it. I guess it's like something inside me just died. I feel worse than I did after September 11. I'm so angry and sad all at the same time. I'm not sure how to get past it. It seems we are engaged in a war that we will not be able to win because we have to play by the rules. There's is no measure we can take against these people that is too extreme. We need to take the gloves off and kill every terrorist on the planet. Every single one. I feel for Mr. Berg and his family. His death...there just aren't words.

[fjolnirsson]

If you go to Oleg's site, www.a-human-right.com , you can view a poster or two. One of these declares, "Human beings understand reason, compassion, dignity. Predators understand strength."

In many ways, this is the problem we are having in Iraq. Any compassion we show to our enemies is understood by them as weakness. Strength is what they understand, and that is what it will take to "win" over there.
GW's "shock and awe" campaign was a great start, but it did not go far enough. We can not negotiate with terrorists, and we can not pretend they are reasonable.
Where we find these people, we should reduce them to smoking craters. Our people get all teary eyed about some humiliation. Our enemies think nothing of slowly sawing a man's head from his living body.
I know this may offend some, but we need to stop these folks from becoming martyrs. The ground troops should be issued hollow points with the tips filled by bacon grease. Keep them from reaching paradise, and maybe they will think twice about coming against our troops.
Right now, every one we kill is a martyr for the cause. They don't think the same way we do. Any death is acceptable, as long as it is one fighting the infidels. Those people cheering while our troops are ambushed, need to be shot. If they aren't with us, they are against us.
We are fighting against an enemy who believes himself to be engaged in a HOLY WAR! Soft tactics and sensitivity training won't help us here.
Let me put it this way, Who would you be more afraid of, a 250 pound man who wants to hurt you, or a 95 lb mother who believes(wrongly, but with all of her heart) that you have stolen her baby?
I'd fear the mother. Her conviction is absolute, and she has nothing to lose. Same with our enemy.
This is not a war of half measures. If we try to fight as if it were, we WILL be there for decades.
We are contending with a vast dichotomy in thinking. The problem is not Muslims. The problem is fanatics. Same trouble we have with gun grabbers.

[Obiwan]

Unfortunately...

This brutal act does not appear to have put the naked prisoner pictures in perspective.

[molonlabe]

I POSTED THIS ON ANOTHER THREAD. I am posting my thoughts here since i want to follow this thread also.

Being a volunteer firefighter, I have had great difficulty squaring the attacks of 9/11 with the Muslim religion. In the words of my wife the death of over 300 firefighters deeply affected me and filled me with anger and hatred. As the result I took the time to understand our enemy and their tactics. There are many books available on the subject and I would suggest everyone who wishes to understand these issues read them. I am currently reading Inside AlQaeda or how a brave Muslim infiltrated the organization risking death to himself and family to expose its brutality and hatred. I believe as the Soviet Union does that these people are a cancer of society and need to be hunted down and excised. This problem is an abomination of Islam and until more courageous people like Mohamed Sifaoui step forward to condemn the actions of these terrorists groups this misunderstanding will continue in the western world.

Seeing the savagery depicted by yesterdays beheading inflames me to the point of insanity and I have to be careful that my anger is directed in the right place.
That all Muslims are not evil.
That there is good and evil in every group of people.
That we are fighting a specific form of hatred not unlike the NAZI party.
That we are a war, and must direct our attention and our resources at our enemy.

That’s my two cents.

[Thumper]

None of us know the command and control structure of this enemy. Who can say if this was planned and directed from the "top" or if it was an errant unsupervised group?

You might be saying that tongue in cheek, but it's not clear. This is entrenched behavior among some groups in the region.

Also, I hope members are actually watching the video before commenting.

[Derek Zeanah]

A lot of us are having trouble finding it. If someone wants to send me a copy (preferably the full-sized one) I'll set up a bittorrent mirror.

For those who don't know, Bittorrent is a free program/protocol that has everyone share in the process -- every downloader is also an uploader, so the longer you leave it open, the better download speeds everyone else sees...

E-mail is the best way to get my attention. Firstname at lastname dot com. :D

[Derek Zeanah]

I've found a small, edited version. It's available via bittorrent here (http://66.80.73.50:6969).

Note that this is not THR material. Personally, I think it's violent, vicious, degrading, insulting, and infuriating. It's in the news though, and as such should probably be available for people to make their own minds.

Mods: correct me if you think I'm wrong.

(Note that I prefer the Azureus client (http://azureus.sourceforge.net/), but the original Bittorrent (http://bitconjurer.org/BitTorrent/download.html) might be easier to install.

[Thumper]

There's a mirror at www.ogrish.com

Boats posted a link to the full version yesterday, but it's down now.

[buy guns]

heres a link i just downloaded the video from.

http://temp.eyecannon.com/iraq2vediom.wmv

i wasnt going to post it but since it came up i will. mods i fully understand if you want to delete it.


In many ways, this is the problem we are having in Iraq. Any compassion we show to our enemies is understood by them as weakness. Strength is what they understand, and that is what it will take to "win" over there.


this is what ive been saying since the war started. they have the same basic mentality as a street thug. you cant sit down with them and sign a peace treaty. if they hit you, you hit them until they are down for good.

[horge]

I've seen my share of beheadings, even those done by al-Qayyida operatives and wannabes here in the Philippines. Nothing was ever quite as brutal as what was on that horrifying video.

Those al-Qayyida animals took their time, prolonging Nick Berg's suffering.
God have mercy on that poor man's soul, and may He steel the hearts and sinews of the warriors who even now seek to bring the claws of justice upon his inhuman murderers.







.

[Bog]

This whole thing worries and appalls me.

I'm on this board because I beleive in the principles of self-determination, mutual respect and love of human life that private gun ownership symbolises.

Whatever my politics and beleifs, the core principles that I live by simple: Respect others. Never initiate force. Oppose tyrrany.

I don't have an answer to what's happenning in iraq, and in the minds of fundamentalists of any creed... but when a person's belief system is such that they are compelled to murder - as horribly as possible - anyone who doesn't share their belief system... ach. It's no different, in absolute terms, to killing a rapist or murderer. This is a person who needs to be killed - so with neither hatred nor fury, let that person be killed.

It's devilishly hard to hang onto one's dispassion with this sort of thing looking one in the face. But it's that dispassion - the process of acting without rancour, to do what's right without embracing hatred - that will save us as a civilisation.

Those who breed this belief that murdering people is God's will need to be cut out of the body of Humanity, the way cancerous lesions would be cut from a human body. Otherwise their message of hatred and slaughter will grow and fester, as any contagious meme does.

This truly is a hard time.

[BigG]

I think we need to lash out against the media, myself. :scrutiny:

[R.H. Lee]

More information is emerging about Nick Berg. Apparently he was roaming around Iraq by himself looking for work :confused: If true, that would be like blue-eyed me roaming around Watts during the riots. Makes no sense.
Also, it is alleged that the U.S. Government never held him and in fact warned him to leave.

It may take awhile to sort this out.

[newman32]

I watched it last night, and I am glad that I did. Sitting here in suburbia, its easy to forget how brutal the world really can be. I really admire the good people who but their lives on the line to do something they beleive in, in spite of the great risks.

That said, I was sickened by what I saw. I can't imagine the horror that he must have experienced and I feel awful for his family. They must be suffering.

I don't know what we need to do. All I can think of is that we need to start assembling serious death squads or something that hunt these bastards down and kill them. They need to fear us. They need to know that death can come for them at any time.

[CannibalCrowley]

Iraqis Shocked by Beheading, Despair Over Violence (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5119272)
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Most Baghdad residents on Wednesday condemned al Qaeda's beheading of a U.S. civilian in Iraq, but many said his death was just the latest atrocity in a cycle of violence that is driving them to despair.
(continues) (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5119272)


Well, that's what so many people wanted. Not all Iraqis approve of the beheading, just like most rational people believed.

[R.H. Lee]

my quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
None of us know the command and control structure of this enemy. Who can say if this was planned and directed from the "top" or if it was an errant unsupervised group?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thumper's response:

You might be saying that tongue in cheek, but it's not clear. This is entrenched behavior among some groups in the region.

What I meant is: Are we dealing with one large cohesive organization directed from the top down (like Nazi Germany), or, is the enemy comprised of a group of warring "tribal chiefs" with sometimes conflicting strategies and goals (like Afghanistan)?

[Thumper]

No, I don't believe it's one cohesive organization. In fact, I don't know of anyone who believes that.

[R.H. Lee]

If it is not one cohesive organization that is more evidence it is not driven by religious zealotry, but a cultural anomaly of the Arab world. We need to find and exploit its weakness, rather than deferring to the religion it is hiding behind. We need to publicly emphasize these terrorist/tyrants/killers are NOT Moslems, and we need the help of the world Moslem community to do it.

[grnzbra]

and even though the quality is horrible, it is an EXTREMELY powerful, and atrocious video. I didn't even know what to feel after I watched it. Crazy stuff...

Perhaps that's why all the networks, who showed some pix of some naked guys and a guy with underwear on his head which sooooo outraged everyone, were sooooo considerate of our sensitivities that "of course we won't show the beheading".

[gyp_c2]

They need to know that death can come for them at any time.

I think most of them have lived with that knowledge all of their lives...That's the real world they're in 24/7...It's our wake-up, not the other way around...

It's always been a terrible world, just put on hold for most of us ....

...No one should have to live that way...

[Norton]

I just watched that horrible video....if those so-called people want to make me hate them, then they've succeeded.

I, for one, will not forget this young man or September 11.....:(

[mvpel]

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Most Baghdad residents on Wednesday condemned al Qaeda's beheading of a U.S. civilian in Iraq, but many said his death was just the latest atrocity in a cycle of violence that is driving them to despair.
(continues)


Well, that's what so many people wanted. Not all Iraqis approve of the beheading, just like most rational people believed.

The "cycle of violence" is a catch prase well-recognized in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which usually is code for the notion that actions taken in defense of the innocent are morally equivalent to cold-blooded and brutal murder of the innocent.

[junyo]

If it is not one cohesive organization that is more evidence it is not driven by religious zealotry, but a cultural anomaly of the Arab world. We need to find and exploit its weakness, rather than deferring to the religion it is hiding behind. We need to publicly emphasize these terrorist/tyrants/killers are NOT Moslems, and we need the help of the world Moslem community to do it.Terrrorist organizations learned a long time ago that having a top heavy central command structure was impossible to maintain. They disperse and compartmentalize the organization so that catching one leader doesn't compromise the the whole, or even greatly effect it. People have to understand that with an organization of this type, the only way to kill it is to kill the members. They won't be dissuaded, or reasoned with or deprogrammed. And as long as they're out there, a couple of them is enough to form a cell and commit a terrorist act.

Religion is a part of it because religious fervor is what creates the foot soldiers. Men with an inadequate grasp of their own Scriptures and a discontent over their life. If the US has failed anywhere over the last 50 years it was in supporting repressive regimes in the MidEast that suppressed any expression or freedom outside of the mosque. Western history has the same parallel; during the middle ages, if you weren't born into nobility the only place where you had any measure of intelletual freedom was the Church, and so the Church became a center or learning and knowledge, and controled that portion of the populace that the crown couldn't control by force through religion. When the knights got rambunctious, the priest concieved of chivalry. When there were too many knights, they were sent off on Crusades - better to have them a continent away killing infidels than running around Europe armed and hungry. Oil princes made the same deal, they gave imam's freedom in exchange for their promise to help them control the people they oppressed. Unfortunately, this ain't the 16th century, and so there was not gradual shift toward Reformation and Renaissance. It's too easy for those people to see they're living in a sh'thole compared to the rest of the world. Which is a hard concept to square witha belief that you're God's chosen. And then some guy comes along and tells you that the reason is you, personally, have been picked by God to help correct that. That, that makes sense. Everyone knows that they were born to greatness. And that's how they recruit. You want to meet the most cynical, amoral, nonbelieving person on the planet? Talk to Osama. Religion is purely a tool, a means to an end for him.

So what has to happen is the hard cynical core, the ones who know the con, those guys need to die. And Islam needs a moderating movement, that pushes down to the lay believer the idea that violence isn't acceptable (as Christianity has moderated it's view on the use of violence). Arab countries need more opportunities for creative energies to be channeled into productive areas. And Arabs in general need more freedom and prosperity. One tends to mind it more when your neighbor's activities will get your house bombed if one actually owns the house.

[Rockrivr1]

I also just watched the video and I can't even begin to imagine what that poor soul must have been feeling while he was able to.

While watching I went through the whole gambet of emotions. Anger, disbelief, sadness, outrage. Anger and outrage have pretty much taken over at this point. I have a feeling for Revenge so bad I can taste it. But as posted previously, who should this feeling of revenge be applied against?

It's easy for some people here at home to say we are doing wrong over there as they sit on their couch eating take out. Last week my state's senetor, Kennedy, called the pictures of prisoner abuse in Iraq an attrosity. If those pictures were an attrocity, then I wonder what he thinks of this video.

I for one believe we are doing the right thing. Wiping out this type of thinking is the right course.

[RealGun]

I see this incident backfiring badly on the supposed al-Qaida message. It has strengthened our resolve more than anything and at a time when that resolve was very much in question.

I see a couple things that will result in the aftermath, and some were already in motion for various reasons.

1) Civilians and contractors need to get the heck out of there.

2) People will understand that al-Qaida is indeed part of the Iraq picture, although direct involvement by other countries may be hiding behind al-Qaida, an enemy with no country upon which to retaliate or hold accountable with clear justification.

3) Taliban = Radical Muslim = al-Qaida = jihad, when it comes to response. Who cares where they are from.

4) Any country which accepts the presence of terrorists or their like is accountable. If they do not actively attempt to get rid of them or ask for help, it's like GWB said..either they are with us or they are with the terrorists.

5) This would be happening in the US, if we allowed it.

6) The US will be in Iraq indefinitely if not permanently, just as Great Britain cannot extract themselves from Northern Ireland, and just as Colin Powell supposedly warned President Bush about the Iraq decision. You conquer it, you own it and all its problems, whether you intended to or not.

I have no problem with playing rough. I would have a problem with out of control troops or atrocities on our part.

[BigG]

Junyo is right, imho.

The guys participating in the terrorist cells are a whacked as the guys who were waiting for the spaceship that was hidden behind Hale-Bopp. "Heaven's Gate" The organizer is like the guy who gave them the order to self immolate. Can't reason with em, gotta squish em. All of em.

[ravinraven]

"They gave eight minutes of coverage of the prison scandal for every one minute of coverage of the beheading."

And why is this? Simple. Everytime the media hypes this pseudo outrage over harrassing murders, rapists, thieves, thugs and terrorists they get to pound one more nail in the coffin of American liberty.

Running a video reminding people who the real enemy and the enemy's enablers are is counterproductive in the war on liberty. Terrorist, etc. are really the military field arm of the crowd of b*st*rds we have right here in America attacking the BoR at every turn. I don't need to list them for you.

When we finally win this war on terror we will have to spend maybe a hundred years tracking down and killing the terrorist remnants. We are still, technically, chasing Nazis even though the few left are damn feeble. The Nazis will die out naturally if we miss the rock any are left hiding under. The terrorists, on the other hand, will keep being produced in hiding until the entire spore is burned out. During this time of hunting down terrorists, there should be an army of liberty loving citizens hunting down every terrorist enabler here in this country.

rr

[Lightsped]

So? Our pics showed some of their soldiers naked. That gives them a excuse to kill one of ours? We need to get real. We need to stop playing with these animals and start cleaning house. You can NOT reason with these animals. No amount of peace treaties, love, or kisses will solve this. I say pull the Iraqi civilians out, and lets turn Iraq into a giant K-Mart parking lot.

Only brute froce will solve this issue. Brute force is all these animals understand.

Might I suggest this?

http://www3.niu.edu/newsplace/t-b52.jpg

[ravinraven]

"They gave eight minutes of coverage of the prison scandal for every one minute of coverage of the beheading."

And why is this? Simple. Everytime the media hypes this pseudo outrage over harrassing murders, rapists, thieves, thugs and terrorists they get to pound one m

[Joe Demko]

Brute force? I'm all for using it if any one of you calling for its use can explain specifically how it is to be applied, to whom it is to be applied, and how that will solve our problems in Iraq.
Mainly, I hear a lot of hollering for revenge.

[R.H. Lee]

junyo, thanks for the well thought out historical analysis. It leads me to believe that GWB is on the right track and that the invasion of Iraq was the best option. If we can't ignore them and can't protect ourselves from them, we need to take the battle to them-draw out the combatants and kill them. Remain in the area to dilute the festering problem by slowly changing the culture, if that is possible. If that is not possible it may result in the annihilation of much of the Arab world.

[R.H. Lee]

junyo, thanks for the well thought out historical analysis. It leads me to believe that GWB is on the right track and that the invasion of Iraq was the best option. If we can't ignore them and can't protect ourselves from them, we need to take the battle to them-draw out the combatants and kill them. Remain in the area to dilute the festering problem by slowly changing the culture, if that is possible. If that is not possible it may result in the annihilation of much of the Arab world.

[R.H. Lee]

junyo, thanks for the well thought out historical analysis. It leads me to believe that GWB is on the right track and that the invasion of Iraq was the best option. If we can't ignore them and can't protect ourselves from them, we need to take the battle to them-draw out the combatants and kill them. Remain in the area to dilute the festering problem by slowly changing the culture, if that is possible. If that is not possible it may result in the annihilation of much of the Arab world.

[R.H. Lee]

junyo, thanks for the well thought out historical analysis. It leads me to believe that GWB is on the right track and that the invasion of Iraq was the best option. If we can't ignore them and can't protect ourselves from them, we need to take the battle to them-draw out the combatants and kill them. Remain in the area to dilute the festering problem by slowly changing the culture, if that is possible. If that is not possible it may result in the annihilation of much of the Arab world.

[R.H. Lee]

Damn! My computer went full auto:what:

[Thumper]

Brute force? I'm all for using it if any one of you calling for its use can explain specifically how it is to be applied, to whom it is to be applied,

Not arguing for or against, but I think "brute force" really doesn't concern itself with such niceties.

Inherent in the definition, I think.

[Plinkerton]

More information is emerging about Nick Berg. Apparently he was roaming around Iraq by himself looking for work If true, that would be like blue-eyed me roaming around Watts during the riots. Makes no sense.

I have no agenda to place blame, but when I first heard he was out there by his own accord, I couldn't believe it. There are better places to look for work than an insane warring coutry. While he of course, didn't deserve any harm to come to him, I would imagine he took into consideration at least some of the possible present risks.

Also, another thing I have been thinking about is that, if indeed this was retaliation for the prisoner abuse, I honestly hope that the few stupid troops that were involved in the incident take Mr. Berg's death to heart, and consider the posibility that their atrocious actions, even though thought of as benign at the time, were the main cause of his horrible death and suffering.

If it is fact a retaliation, I hope that smug bitch in the pictures, pointing, smiling, and giving a "thumbs up" feels plenty bad about what she has done. I hope she serves time, and I hope she serves it happily, for the fact that she didn't end up like Mr. Berg.

I realize that war is war, and it's not fair, and it's horrible and barbaric, but people need to take responsibility for their actions.

That's what I think.

[mvpel]

I have no agenda to place blame, but when I first heard he was out there by his own accord, I couldn't believe it. There are better places to look for work than an insane warring coutry. While he of course, didn't deserve any harm to come to him, I would imagine he took into consideration at least some of the possible present risks.

He was a well-to-do individual working to help the Iraqi people rebuild their nation's infrastructure. He wasn't a hippie bum looking to pick vegetables or the like.

[ojibweindian]

Faulting him for his own death while looking for work in Iraq is somewhat similar to saying that a woman's rape was her own fault because she shouldn't have walked the two blocks to the convenience store for a pack of cigs at 2300.

In other words, that is complete and utter crap.

[HBK]

I don't care who he was or what he was doing, it's immaterial. He was an American citizen and he didn't deserve what he got. He was trying to make Iraq a better place and paid for it with his life.

[grampster]

________________________________________________________
"The problem is not Muslims. The problem is fanatics. Same trouble we have with gun grabbers"
_________________________________________________________

I concur. The operative word is "fanatic". They come in all sizes, shapes, colors, sexes, locations and religious backgrounds. As for whether the claim that this was in retaliation.......bullS***!....This was for shock effect done by evil men for their own perverted reasons attempting to shift some of the stone age evil that they spew toward the forces of Western civilization. It is not our fault! we did not start this! We don't want your countries, your people....or anything except to peacefully do business with you. We are capitalists not colonialists. There is a difference, but most blissninnies don't understand this. These fanatics want us all DEAD and they want the REST OF THE WORLD under their dominion, period. They are the colonialists. Methods or reasons don't matter.

To lend some moral equivilancy to stripping men nude, posing them and making them wear women's underwear or scaring them with a leashed barking dog, with sawing a living man's head off while praising what passes for their god is absolutely without merit. To suggest that the dumb a** troop that participated in the humiliation should take some blame for the barbaric murder of Mr. Berg (a Jew, by the way) is beyond belief and I am ashamed that anyone on this board would even think let alone say this.



:banghead: grampster:fire:

[ojibweindian]

To lend some moral equivilancy to stripping men nude, posing them and making them wear women's underwear or scaring them with a leashed barking dog, with sawing a living man's head off while praising what passes for their god is absolutely without merit.

I completely agree.

[Sean Smith]

Americans have become so far detached from the barbarism that is most of the world's way of life that the obvious shocks us. We are fighting religious fanatics and the Arab equivalent of deposed Nazis, and the fact that they like to murder unarmed Americans is somehow shocking? This is reality, folks. Look into the face of your enemy as he saws that man's head off.

Then tell me that he's morally equivalent to us, that his cause is right and ours is wrong. :rolleyes:

[gunbot]

Violent, animalistic behavior on the part of terrorists justified by Koranic verses taken out of context is a cancer on the religion of Islam and the human beings who peacefully practice their faith.

In humans, many cancers will, if left untreated, progress to the point where the patient dies; usually following a protracted, pain filled struggle.
We seek the treatment modalities of surgery, chemotherapy, radiation therapy or a combination of them. To my limited knowledge, cancer has never been effectively treated by negotiation, bargaining or capitulation.

This cancer is running rampant in the Islamic world. Unlike other cancers, it is contagious. We are attempting surgery with little if any progress.
Perhaps a more aggressive treatment approach is necessary; chemo or radiation. Otherwise, the patient will die and perhaps take us with them.

[Plinkerton]

Just in case any of you missed it. THIS is what I said:
I have no agenda to place blame, but when I first heard he was out there by his own accord, I couldn't believe it. There are better places to look for work than an insane warring coutry. While he of course, didn't deserve any harm to come to him, I would imagine he took into consideration at least some of the possible present risks.

I didn't say he deserved it. I didn't say it was his fault. I didn't say he was a hippie bum picking vegetables. What I said was that I have NO agenda to place blame . This means, I am not blaming anyone. None of his execution even came remotely close to being justified by whoever did it.

What I am simply stating, is that I would hope he was at least AWARE of the possible risks to his health and livelihood. If he wasn't, THEN I will go so far as to say he was living in a bubble. None of that matters though. He had every right to be there, and every right not to be killed or hurt. I'm just saying that there are better, safer places to go.

If I were an independent contractor, my job, and money, would not drive me to go to a place where many of the people hated Americans, and were known for extremely barbaric ways. I'm sure being there, besides his horrible demise, was a great experience for him, and I would imagine it made him much more thankful for his life here in America. It's a shame that it ended the way it did.

To lend some moral equivilancy to stripping men nude, posing them and making them wear women's underwear or scaring them with a leashed barking dog, with sawing a living man's head off while praising what passes for their god is absolutely without merit. To suggest that the dumb a** troop that participated in the humiliation should take some blame for the barbaric murder of Mr. Berg (a Jew, by the way) is beyond belief and I am ashamed that anyone on this board would even think let alone say this.

I am not comparing the two. I'm not stating that the troops should take blame. I think that the murder was done purely to cause trouble. I think while they may have disliked what the troops did to the prisoners, but I doubt that was the only reason to go find an American and kill them. For this reason, I don't think the troops should feel responsible. IF, the sole reason for the murder was because of revenge for the abuse of prisoners, I may think different, but I don't think that was the case.

Either way, I DO hope that the event of Mr. Berg's death can show the troops who commited the abuse that certain events have the possibility to lead to other, much worse events, even in a roundabout way.

Also, I'm not sure if all the facts are out yet, but it seems like there were possibilities of more than just making the prisoners be naked, wear women's clothes, and "scare" them with a barking dog. That alone may not be a big deal to us. But, if the other things that have been accused are true, there is a different problem. There is no justification for pissing on people, sticking things in their as*es, letting dogs bite them, tying wires to parts of their bodies and possibly their genitals, and beating them with sticks.

Also, we should take into consideration the fact that cultures are different. For us, being humiliated by a woman is not the end of the world, but for other cultures, it bears a MUCH stronger moral and mental atrocity.

Not that ANY of this, no matter how bad it got can be justification for the brutal murder, but, if more is true than just "simple" humiliation, I don't think it should be glossed over.

Also, if I think it, I will say it. I have no reason to hide behind my opinions, because other people don't agree with me. I think you may find I am not the only one who thinks this way.

Lastly, why does it matter if he was a Jew?

[sendec]

Moral outrage over the mechanics of killing someone misses some point. Why does this death bother us more than any other?

[ojibweindian]

Why does this death bother us more than any other?

Put your head and the chopping block and you might be able to answer your own question.

[fix]

sendec,

In some ways I feel the same way you do. I've been exposed to some pretty nasty things in my short 30 years on this earth, and my wife says that's the reason I am not as utterly horrified over this incident as many are. Maybe the same applies to you.

[DonP]

The whole thing had kind of a weird human sacrifice tone to it, IMHO.

They are cutting the poor man's throat, while he screams his life out, and all the while they are chanting and shouting "Praise to Allah", "Allah is Great". I guess their particular brand of Allah appreciates human blood.

The whole thing felt like I was watching a human sacrifice on some old movie. Part of a "normal" ritual by some primitive religion making a sacrifice to Baal or other graven image.

Not meant as an indictment of Islam as a whole, unless of course the Islamic rulers or major spokespersons just sit down, shut up and don't comment on the atrocity. In a case like this silence is not an option. After all they were all very quick to be vocal eailer iin the week about "humiliated" prisoners.

[HBK]

Plinkerton, I wasn't directed my comments toward you at all. It is a good point that he didn't use very good judgement. Walking around Iraq probably isn't a smart thing to do if you're an American. I am still in shock at the brutality of it. I've seen some bad things, but never anything like that.

[Plinkerton]

HBK: Thanks. I wasn't specifically aiming at you either.

Overall, everone, I think it's all crazy. It was so brutal, but I don't think we should focus on that. He is dead, and I doubt if he cares what happens now, being dead and all.

Something definitely needs to be done, and I have nothing against some sort of aggression towards certain people in Iraq.

Overall, everything is being handled somewhat well, and I have no specific argument with anyone.
The prisoner abuse? Big deal. it happend and its over with. War is war, and sh*t happens.

Sometimes though, I get a little sick of the "holier than thou" attitude that America SOMETIMES seems to have.
Whether they actually do or not, it just seems that way sometimes.

I don't know where I'm going with this.

[sendec]

Plinkerton-

I think you are on to something about the attitude typical Americans have. We see war as a sterile video feed of a JDAMS going through a precisely chosen window, or FLIR from an Apache. Getting beheaded by a tomahawk or a Tomahawk still results in the same thing, we just prefer our carnage clean. We are outraged by the Berg killing, but we should be outraged by all the killing, not one in particular because it is so ugly.

Video of people being beheaded is'nt new, or news. It is fairly common in the Mid- and Far East. But when it happens to a blond hair blue eyed American we seem to all of a sudden realize that maybe we are'nt as invincible as we thought.

For all of us crying for blood from the safety of our PCs, maybe we should stop and think about what it looks, and sounds, and smells like when somebody dies violently. I'm guessing that Bush and Rumsfeld have not experienced it.

I am a big fan of violence - it is an incredibly useful tool. But there is a certain truth to reaping what you sow. If we dont have the stomach for it we need to find a better way. Cause otherwise it is not gonna change. There'll be more Bergs, and more cyalumes up asses, until we focus and get the job done, or get out.

[Monkeyleg]

sendec, I believe you just reinforced my point.

[horge]

sendec,

There's a big difference between accidentally involving non-combatants,
and specifically targeting them. War is war and ugly stuff happens to innocents, yes,
but it is the intentions and best efforts that separate us from those animals.

America has quite a legitimate claim on the 'more righteous than thou' standpoint:
the coalition has gone to great pains to not merely avoid civilian casualties,
but to extend aid and redress to those affected, and to the general Iraqi population.

The enemy offers them incitement of hatred and a renunciation of their humanity.



-----------
Let's not try to dilute the evil of the Berg murder.
There ARE many beheading videos perpetrated and disseminated by Muslims,
but many of these are in conjunction with Sharia court judgements.
The convicted are sometimes even given the benefit of a sedative/soporific,
and the cut is clean and quick.

Not so, this murder of Berg:
this was a deliberate kidnapping, torture and murder of a KNOWN innocent.

[Mr Kablammo]

The element of human sacrifice...consider that the Shaheeds in Israel make videos and their 'martrydom operations' are sanctioned by clerics as a valid method of delivery, detonation, and dispatch. Human sacrifice has again been unloosed as a form of worship. According to the rules of the clerics, sin is expiated by killing and dying in Jihad. Therefore, as the targets of Jihad we are the sacrificial animals whose blood gains paradise for the warriors. Until you understand this basic interplay of sin, guilt, sacrifice, and being the sacrificial animal, you do not understand the true nature of this war. Once you understand that you and your family are useful to our enemies as sacrificial offerings, you will understand that this a war to your finish; or that of the enemy. Read on the prophet Elijah and learn.

[GSB]

For the first time in over sixty years, the American public does not have the will to fight an enemy who has declared war on us. The US public will only want war when it's being conducted in our own homes, and by then it will be too late.

Too true, I fear. I just had a discussion along these lines with a guy at work today. We came to the sad conclusion that the public won't wake up until terrorists start shooting up kindergartens on U.S. soil, and maybe not even then -- many will still be wringing their hands and asking what America needs to do to be loved by these savages.

It's not like it's any big secret what these psychotics have in mind for us. They've declared their war on our way of life. They've more than amply demonstrated that they have the will and intent to slaughter us like sheep, and that all they lack at the moment is the means to deliver on that promise. But most Americans, being basically decent sorts, naiively continue to believe that nobody could be THAT bad, that nobody is really EVIL, that if we just reach out to them, understand them...

Bull. Maybe this video will wake a few people up before it's too late, before we are just another footnote in the history books, the modern Carthage.

[capt_happypants]

Ultimately, the logistics of small-unit terror aren't hard, so the question begs to be asked: Why not?

I'm guessing that a holy warrior hell-bent on his 72 pieces of eternal bliss is far more likely to pick up his AK and cross the border into Iraq, instead of flying to DIA. If there's one bright spot in the WoT, this is the one. Iraq is the Big Target, and thank God that we send about 10 of them into the afterlife, for every one of ours.

I dread the day when that scenario comes true. But I think it's inevitable.

[ravinraven]

"Then tell me that he's morally equivalent to us, that his cause is right and ours is wrong."

Sure the terrorists pigs are morally equiv. Their cause is just ours is not. Just ask anyone from Looneywood, most anyone from any University and about half to three quarters of the news media perverts along with the terrorist enablers in congress.

And another interesting thought. There are tons of Muslims around the country. Way up here 75 miles north of the USArmy's Artic Training Base, we have many of them. One is a drinking buddy of mine who has a house in Baghdad. [And we don't drink RC] But, how many are capable of grabbing people off our streets right here and doing the Osama boogey with them? How do you tell the difference between those who never would do such a thing and the others? What do we do if that happens.

This WOT sure has endless possibilities for people with great imaginations.

rr
__________________

[gulogulo1970]

I don't like to hate. But I do truly hate this enemy. I hate when they murder in their gods name. I hate their cowardly tactics of shooting from holy ground and hiding among civillians and shooting at our soldiers. I hate how "our" media will soon forget this murder and then will still dwell on the dishonorable actions of our MP's. It fills me with an uncomfortable rage. My emotions are very post 9/11 right now.

The only good is it reminds us that we are still at war with an enemy that has to be destroyed. The sense of detachment is over for alot of americans. I feel powerless to help. I see no national war effort. My question is what can the aveage american do to help the war effort? Is there anything we can do other than get angry and hate the enemy?

[amprecon]

This was the most sadistic and brutal thing I have ever witnessed.

Their god is satan.

If I were President Bush, I would withdraw every Allied trooper.

Then I would muster every flyable aircraft in our arsenal and load them down with napalm and MOABs and then wax that entire rectal region of this earth and all it's inhabitants.

May our God busy his hands sorting out the innocents.

Prison scandal? That wasn't even noteworthy college initiation material.

I say we're fighting the wrong war, we need to be kicking these liberals out of our country, send them to Iraq.

[CannibalCrowley]

amprecon Then I would muster every flyable aircraft in our arsenal and load them down with napalm and MOABs and then wax that entire rectal region of this earth and all it's inhabitants. So killing innocent people is right when it's done by the U.S. ?

The tactics of the terrorists have been implied by many groups throughout history, yet some people act like it's the first time it's happened. Sure we know more about what's going on, and the propaganda can be more efficiently distributed; but other than minor differences these tactics have been used before.

We can't fight a "standard" war and defeat this enemy, history has proven that much.

[Plinkerton]

"Our" media really needs to forget all the sh*t that goes on. The only thing they do is skew it in their own strange ways for one side or the other. EVERYONE has an agenda, no matter what it may be, and it can't help but bombard us through media.

If we didn't have the stupid media, blowing things way out of proportion, or not blowing them up enough, things would be a little saner.

My question is what can the aveage american do to help the war effort? Is there anything we can do other than get angry and hate the enemy?

Yes. You can join the army, and try your damndest to get sent over there so you can "KILL SOME IRAQI'S!" If you can't join the army, I suppose you could start a group, and then you could teach people how to hate Iraqi's and then they could spread the hate. Maybe if enough people hated them, more people would join the army, and then they could kill more of them.

It gets a little sickening to hear all the hate spewing from people's mouths all the time. Why don't we just kill all those as*holess, because that's what they are doing to us. What's the point of pretending we are any better than them? Let's just nuke the whole goddam country.

We could, as was so eloquently stated, "wax that entire rectal region of this earth and all it's inhabitants."

Mmmm... doesn't that make you feel all warm and happy inside? I don't consider myself completely Liberal, but if spouting off all this nonsense is what it means to be a Conservative, I'll be a fu*king hippie Liberal any day.

[HBK]

I know you liberals would love to just give them all a nice big hug, but there's a reason people are saying what the stuff you find so distasteful. It's because the Muslim fanatics only understand ugly, painful death. Anything less is regarded as weakness. :rolleyes:

[johnr]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1133927/posts
-The Berg Beheading- some links--

[Joe Demko]

The tactics of the terrorists have been implied by many groups throughout history, yet some people act like it's the first time it's happened. Sure we know more about what's going on, and the propaganda can be more efficiently distributed; but other than minor differences these tactics have been used before.

You got that right. Guess a lot of folks here have never read about the wars between white men and red men right here in North America. Guess those same people never read about the various African wars of the 20th century, too. The only difference this time around is that it gets spread around the world in living color and stereo sound instantaneously.
Those screaming that we just need to use more of our military might need to read a little history and rethink what is going on here. Can you kill an idea with guns and bombs? Look at the Nazis. I challenge you to find anybody more brutal in repression of partisan activity than they were. Yet (surprise!) they were still troubled by partisans. If murderous, evil a-holes like the Nazis couldn't deal with irregular forces through the ruthless use of military strength, why do you think it will work for us?

[ravinraven]

I understand fully the hate thing. The kill 'em all thing. Hitlar tried it. Stalin. Pol Pot. Idi Amin. Abortion clinic bombers. It just doesn't work. If it did we'd probably all be gone. Herod tried killin' 'em all to get the Christ Child.

But that raw emotion is a good starting place because it keeps reminding you that there are people out there who hate you enuf to kill you right now without even knowing your name. There happens to be an ocean and your anonimity protecting you. That's all.

What can be done by the average person is to constantly be aware of what is going on and talk to people pointing out truth as opposed to media hype. Don't let yourself be consumed by blind hatred or blinded by media agendas and the agendas of terrorists enablers in congress, hollywood, the media, etc. Always keep both feet on the ground.

Be ready to study and support or criticise every item you hear about regarding the WOT. When deciding who to vote for for the next century, ask yourself : "Who would Bin Laden [or whoever] vote for?" Vote opposite. Right now it appears that Bush is a bigger danger to the vermin world both here and abroad. But as Liberals set lower and lower standards for political candidates, Repubs may find it necessary to run some one sleazier that the Dem choice. Again, who would the terrorist vote for?

We are going to have to develop new intelligence techniques and technologies, me thinks. A question I have is: "Why don't we implant a global positioning chip in several of the people who might be kidnapped? Or have them wear some item with such a chip installed. Another question is why can't people who might be kidnapped wear explosive belts? If it looks like you are finished, take some of the b#####s with you. That's way better than being tortured or praded in front of the world. Why aren't we running decoy convoys and lone vehicles with the purpose of attracting an attack and taking out the attackers?

These sneaky tactics and devices will do more than blind hatred.

You'd be surprised how speaking against hatred makes me boil. It sure would be nice to take 'em all out. But it won't work.

Taking them all out would mean doing away with some great Muslim people I know. I even have an old friend who drove a tank for Germany in WWII. Sure glad we missed him.

It's politics. And politics seems to always be someone else's idea of what should affect your life. Alas, blood is the currency of politics. If it was only votes or money, life would be grand.

rr

[RealGun]

Those screaming that we just need to use more of our military might need to read a little history and rethink what is going on here.

How much of that history applies when you combine a tribal culture with the wealth of oil? Without some effort to effect cultural change, we would just be waiting for their next Saddam or a radical theocrat (Iran). I agree that it is time to end the world threat from such cultures. There will be no quick fix. Fight or help them there or fight them here.

[Joe Demko]

I agree that it is time to end the world threat from such cultures. There will be no quick fix. Fight or help them there or fight them here.

How do you fight a culture? As I said in another thread, I'm all for the use of brute force provided someone can cogently explain how it is to be applied, to whom it is to be applied and how it will solve our problems in that region.

[RealGun]

Far be it from me to have a comprehensive answer, but I do know that we have been influential in that area before re Shah of Iran, for example. Afghanistan provides more immediate evidence. The Shah thing was less noble, but we do have our influence. One way is to not insist upon a quick fix, the equivalent of instant gratification with a credit card. I would say, settle back for about a 20 year project.

There is no way the June date is going to hold up for turning over power to an interim government in Iraq, because their chieftains do not want to give up influence to a functionally apolitical structure proposed by Brahimi (UN) with US backing. That is cultural resistance, and it will take time to soften it.

There is a good story on this in today's Washington Post, which can be read on their website, if you register (free). See washingtonpost.com. Look for "Iraqi Politicians Press for Wider Role" once you're in.

[Joe Demko]

The Shah thing was less noble

That's one way of describing it...

[Thumper]

Obviously targeting those calling for the destruction of the infidel would fall under the category of brute force. Pouring a ton of ordnance on la-Sadr and his followers, even on a religious Friday ( :rolleyes ) would be ok with me.

Also, understand that "brute" means "brute." Innocents are gonna die and/or lose their homes.

[Joe Demko]

From a revenge aspect, that would be fine with me as well, except for the deaths and injuries to innocents. Property damage can be dealt with financially if necessary. I would still like somebody to address the questions of how one goes about killing an idea or fighting a culture.

[Thumper]

Not from a revenge aspect for me.

If someone says they're gonna kill me or mine, and they have the means, I'm gonna take it to 'em. That NAP crap can take a flying leap.

[Mostly Harmless]

I have trouble taking that video at face value. There's a bunch of stuff in it that makes me think of those staged snuff videos that you can probably still find. On one level it looks hideously real. On another level it just tweaks my TruthSense meter.

Alex Jones has a bunch of stuff on it:

http://www.infowars.com/print/iraq/berg.htm

Not that I believe everything he says.

It does fit nicely into the "wind up America with increasingly horrific outrages against US citizens" scenario that seems to have been going on for a while.

If we're lucky some of us will be around in 30 or 40 years when the truth does finally come out.

[Thumper]

Hey Douglas Adams...you did know that the video showed up first on an al qaeda site?

[WIG19]

From molonlabe:
Seeing the savagery depicted by yesterdays beheading inflames me to the point of insanity and I have to be careful that my anger is directed in the right place.
That all Muslims are not evil.
That there is good and evil in every group of people.
That we are fighting a specific form of hatred not unlike the NAZI party.
That we are a war, and must direct our attention and our resources at our enemy.
After reviewing all these posts several times, including the missing ones from mvpel in other threads now that he's been banished, (I guess some posters calling for wholesale bombing of everything with a beard, though, is OK), the above is one of those worth thinking about. Thanks also to Thumper for posting the extract of Soldiers' Common Tasks which answers whoever it was posted that just because they aren't signatories to the Geneva Convention means we "technically" don't have to behave as well..

This is an interesting forum with some sharp, interesting people posting on it. Just hope the "High" part doesn't mean that only certain people get the "high" moral ground. When I see Molonlabe's last thought from an obviously heartfelt post I think back to the cold war, which I was involved in deeper than I can go into here and that one thing we kept in mind, that seems applicable here, was this:

"Never forget that the Russian knows the fable of the wolf and the sheep. And he expects us to know what happens to the sheep."

A difference now is that they don't care whether we know what happens to the sheep or not.

Be well. And mods might want to count to 86,400 before pulling the plug on someone.

[Tamara]

If someone says they're gonna kill me or mine, and they have the means, I'm gonna take it to 'em. That NAP crap can take a flying leap.

Read what you wrote. It's pretty funny, actually. ;)

(Why wouldn't you Thump 'em before they made the threats and before they had the means? You little NAPster, you. :D )

[ojibweindian]

mvpel is banned?

[Thumper]

Why wouldn't you Thump 'em before they made the threats and before they had the means? You little NAPster, you.

Only 'cause I probably couldn't get away with it.

Shut it, Tam. ;)

While you're paying attention, send me a link to something Randian that deals with national defense. I know you have something good.

[ravinraven]

"I would still like somebody to address the questions of how one goes about killing an idea or fighting a culture."

It's going to have to be sufficient to just kill the ones who are coming after us before they can do any damage. It looks like a century or two of work. Hope all the while that they will change their own culture to something a little less deadly to us infidels. Hope also that we don't somehow become worse by adopting their culture as they dump it.

So we're back to intelligence techniques and technology coupled with stealth attacks. Maybe this type of war will make the bomber and the tank obsolete.

rr

[Plinkerton]

I think Raven and Golgo have some good points.

Personally, I am not AT ALL against brute force, and the possible deaths of civilians, their side, and our side. War is war, and it's ugly. There will be horrible losses, and disgusting deaths.

I have no problem with the war itself, and definitely think some aggression can be helpful.

The thing I dislike is the over-the-top HATE from people. Much of it is illogical, and stereotypical. The "kill anything with a beard" statement comes to mind. It does sometimes seem like that, and that isn't good for anyone.

I didn't see a different video than you, when I watched Mr. Berg get his head cut off. I think it's as insane as you do. The difference is that we have to figure out WHO is doing WHAT. We can't start generalizing and sticking everyone in the same boat. Because, as was said, someone here has a friend who was on the German side in WWII. Now, you can look at him, and value his friendship and wisdom, and are probably quite grateful to know someone who was on the opposing side. You get to hear different opinions, and different recounts of events.

If there are people like that in Iraq, that means there is at least SOME WORTH to the civilians over there. I realize they fight dirtier than we do, but that is a problem we are going to have to face. We are a very industrialized society, and we have morals and values and laws. When we go up against an enemy, who has none of those things, they will be willing to do things to us, that we would never be able to do to them, morally, and legally.

If that is how we want to be as a country, we can't go around blowing sh*t up all the time. It's just not the right answer. It drops down to "their level". If we are so adamant about calling them animals, barbarians, and savages, why would we even consider doing to them what they are willing to do to us?

Emotions are great things, but don't let them get carried away. Think, be logical, and make smart and wise decisions. We've had enough persecution, hate, and stereotyping in our world to last lifetimes.

Guns, bullets, grenades, etc. Just fine by me.

MOAB'S and nukes? I think there's a better way.

We should use a scalpel, not a machete.

[Paco]

Well Spoken Plinkerton.

[RepublicanMan]

Saying that not all of them are evil or bad is correct, but some of them are.
It's those that are the problem. As sad (or fascist as I'm sure some of you will label me) as it sounds, I believe it's us or them and my vote is for "us" thank you.

When you have a kidney fail you don't isolate it down to the individual cells in the kidney and remove them, it's not possible. When you have an entire religion, based on the premise that they are the only true believers and all others must convert or die, you can't just remove the individuals that promote these acts, it's not possible. Muslims are the kidney, fanatical Islam is the cancer........

[auschip]

Republicanman said:

When you have a kidney fail you don't isolate it down to the individual cells in the kidney and remove them, it's not possible. When you have an entire religion, based on the premise that they are the only true believers and all others must convert or die, you can't just remove the individuals that promote these acts, it's not possible. Muslims are the kidney, fanatical Islam is the cancer........


Did you not read the "kill em all post"? You are working on a faulty premise, and because of that drawing incorrect conclusions. To use your own analogy you wouldn't then remove the other kidney because it "might go bad", would you?

[RepublicanMan]

No, but I would remove the kidney that had the few bad cancer cells.....I fail to see how you could misconstrue my meaning. And no, I didn't read the post you referenced, it apparently has been deleted.

[Joe Demko]

We aren't talking about cancer or kidney cells. We are talking about human beings. People. If you are willing to sacrifice all in order to deal with the tiny minority that are behind the terrorism, then (to quote Marko Kloos) you are human only biologically speaking.

[auschip]

I didn't miscontrue what you said, I simply expanded on the theory behind it. First, you are working on the incorrect premise that Islam requires or even encourages members to kill infidels. Second, the thread I referenced said (paraphrasing) to suggest we should remove Islam the religion is an attack on at least one of the owners of this board and won't be allowed. The reason the thread was deleted was because a large portion of the posts where from people who had been banned because of it.

[GSB]

If we are so adamant about calling them animals, barbarians, and savages, why would we even consider doing to them what they are willing to do to us?

Since things have gotten really heated, I'd just like the opportunity to clarify that when I used the word "savages" in my post, I was referring specifically to that particular group of people in the world who commit these sort of acts (and I'll gladly apply that label to people who necklace helpless peasants in Africa or drag black men to death behind pickup trucks as well). I hope no one was under the impression that I was referring to all people of Iraq, or all Muslims, or "all" of anyone except the terrorists.

Some have mentioned that it is somewhat silly to be horrified by this sort of thing when it happens in every war. Yes, it happens in every war. In Vietnam, men had their genitals sliced off and were allowed to bleed to death, and in Japan people were boiled alive slowly -- the list of cruelties visited by mankind upon itself continues long and horrifically from Cain down. I think we're all aware that such inhumanity by man to his fellow man is not unique to this enemy at this time. But I think it is a measure of our humanity and decency that we can still be horrified by such hideous acts of degradation of the value of a human being. If we ever stop being collectively horrified by this sort of thing, we are well along the road to being lost as a people. It is one thing to be strong enough as a nation to do what must be done to survive, it's quite another to become what we fight. As Nietzsche said, "He would would fight monsters should look first to himself that he does not become a monster".

I'll yield the soapbox now.

[RepublicanMan]

GSB,

If becoming a monster is what it takes to ensure the continuation of our way of life then I much prefer doing so to bowing down and seeing it ended.

[Plinkerton]

GSB.

Since you quoted me, I guess I should respond. I actually did not notice you saying that they were savages. I was just referring generall to many people's opinions of the people of Iraq. I agree also, that the few people over there who are actually doing the savage acts are the ones who are savages, not the others. I have no problem calling savages what they are. But, just for clarification, none of that was directed to you, or anyone else on this board specifically.

[GSB]

But, just for clarification, none of that was directed to you, or anyone else on this board specifically.

Thanks. I just wanted to address it because message boards can often be a terribly imprecise medium of communication. It wouldn't have been the first time that I meant one thing and been construed otherwise.

[Joe Demko]

If becoming a monster is what it takes to ensure the continuation of our way of life then I much prefer doing so to bowing down and seeing it ended.

If we become monsters, then we are not continuing our way of life and we have lost.

[GSB]

If becoming a monster is what it takes to ensure the continuation of our way of life then I much prefer doing so to bowing down and seeing it ended.

I'm sorry, you missed the point of my post if you thought I was suggesting we roll over and die. I believe victory can be had without becoming what we fight. If you don't believe so, I can't change your mind, but I prefer to have more optimism in our character as a nation.

[amprecon]

I speak as a White Conservative Patriotic American.

It is appalling to me, as an outraged American, to be told by other "Americans", who claim to have taken "The High Road", to control my anger and emotions and that we need to fight fair and justly.

Let me say that I believe we are fighting the wrong war and in the wrong place. Our deadliest enemies live among us.

For so-called "Americans" to not be disturbed and outraged by the cowardly acts against our own people is seditiousness in it's most naked and flagrant form.

Because of our love for our country and all the freedoms and liberties which we and others before have imposed upon ourselves, we feel that our lives are worth more than those anywhere else on this planet.

I understand that this may appear flamboyant and that those that dispute it will have exposed themselves as who they truly are.

I am willing to sacrifice non-combatants to secure peace and life for my fellow Americans who are sacrificing their liberties and lives to secure mine. For those of you who cannot justify the sacrifice it is then understood that they don't value their own lives and the lives of their fellow countrymen. I don't like them or trust them any more than the terrorists.

The icons of their political affiliation were just in their actions to carpet bomb cities which did not contain any military value, day after day, month after month. And Americans revelled in it. We not only bombed non-military (civilian for you non-P.C. people) targets with high explosives, but added some extras like incendiary devices.

Eventually another of their political icons decided to add a little more spice to the nightly bombings of cities and so became "Little Boy" and "Fat Man". And Americans were crazy with enthusiasm and joy. However, there is a significant difference between the beliefs of their icon in Harry S. Truman and themselves today. You see, one of Truman's motivations was the salvation of thousands of fellow Americans, a motivation lacked by the followers of his party today.

This is a war for the survival of our country, for the survival of all peoples of the world. We must deny the murderers of Nick Berg and the rest of their ilk the very thought of obtaining power anywhere in this world. They must be destroyed, those "innocents" who have stood by in complacency and allowed their brethren to be brainwashed into the belief that brutality and inhumanity were just and righteous goals that must be achieved world-wide in the name of their god are not so "innocent".

I expect the onslaught from the "other" side for this post, but they will be doing me a favor and exposing themselves as who they truly are. If killing 10,000 "innocents" saves one American, they'll have my vote and I would hope that I would be in gracious company.

[Plinkerton]

If killing 10,000 "innocents" saves one American, they'll have my vote and I would hope that I would be in gracious company.

This is who I truly am. I do not and will not ever think that the lives of 10,000 innocents is worth one American life. What a pompous, arrogant thing to say. I see that you have the word "innocents" in quotes. If you are insinuating they are not truly innocent, then, to a point, I won't disagree with you. But for the ones who ARE truly innocent, their life is worth every bit mine is. Does that mean I think we should be so worried about killing them, that we as a country are hurt? No, not at all.

As far as I am concerned, WE come first. We have every right to protect ourselves and our country.

Let me say that I believe we are fighting the wrong war and in the wrong place. Our deadliest enemies live among us.

Do you have a remedy for this? Why don't we ship all the Liberals to Iraq like was suggested earlier? Should we lock up every person with a differing opinion than you have?

I guess I disagree with you. I think we are fighting the right war, in the right place. But, there is no reason for us to become monsters. I will never let myself become a monster. If I do, I would have no reason to even pretend to exist in a world of harmony with other human beings.

They must be destroyed, those "innocents" who have stood by in complacency and allowed their brethren to be brainwashed into the belief that brutality and inhumanity were just and righteous goals that must be achieve world-wide in the name of their god are not so "innocent".

I completely understand where you are coming from, BUT, they do not know any better. Are you a Christian? "Forgive them, for they do not know what they have done" (more or less). The "innocents" ARE part of the problem, but they were raised that way from BIRTH.

Here in America, for example, we have racists. MANY of them are that way, because of their parents. They have it so ingrained in them that anyone who is not white, is less than themselves. If you've ever talked to a racist, they speak to you as if they are right, and as if what they say is completely just and correct. They see no moral problem with their views. Many of them are also Christians, and believe that God agrees with their racist views.

The "innocents" of Iraq, believe everything they believe because of religion. They do not know any other way. Their God speaks to them through their "Bible" and that is the word of Allah.

America's racists have killed before in horribly brutal ways in the past. Dragging people behind their trucks until they died. Do we kill all the racists in our country? No. Are all of them guilty of hatred? Probably. Why should we kill all the "innocents" in Iraq? Many of them may have indirectly contributed to the problem, but what about the ones who didn't?

I agree that they are part of the problem, but I do not think they all deserve to die because of that.

[amprecon]

Thank you Plinkerton......next.

[Plinkerton]

Next? I'm not trying to disuade any opinion you may have. You are entitled to yours and I AM entitled to mine, no matter how much you may dislike it. Don't try to turn this into a petty contest.

I never intend for your opinions to match mine. I'm sure we will never agree. But, lets be adults, and agree to disagree gracefully. You are talking at me as if you have the superior views. That's just fine, and as I said, you are completely entitled to think so. Don't try to turn something as simple as a disagreement, into a little game for you to "win".

I just typed a whole lot, but I just deleted it. I believe it will fall on ears that do not care for my words.

Nevermind. I guess I will continue to be your deadliest enemy.

[RepublicanMan]

To sum it up Plinkerton, there is no room for "half assed" solutions.....whether we like it or not, this is a war for cultural survival, not just with Iraq but with the entire Islamic culture. I will try and find the appropriate passage in the Koran but in short, their "bible" instructs them to convert, kill or enslave all "non-believers"......that is all I need to know about them in order to realize that it's us or them.

Those that choose not to practice such an extreme form of Islam are more than welcome to step up to the plate and help put down those that do, but until they do they are on the wrong side of the line and thusly are valid military targets.

Had the United States held the same beliefs in the 1940s that some seem to be trying to cram down our throats today we'd all be using chopsticks to eat and speaking German.

[TheBluesMan]

Closed. Thread veer into religion.