Does anyone NOT blame the Iraqi people for what is happening?


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priv8ter
May 13, 2004, 04:55 AM
First things first, I wish I had posted this a few days ago, before the ugly beheading incident, because, it was easier to be objective then. But here goes.

As I watch the news each night, and hear about another US Soldier or Marine kiled, it makes me sad. I feel bad for the parents that are losing children, and children that are losing parents. I was in the Navy for 9 years, and I guess I'm lucky I was a submariner that never had to deal with something like this. We cursed our luck when the ice cream machine broke. So, I applaud our service men(and women) over there doing a very tough job.

But...

On the other hand, I'm not sure if I can hate the Iraqi resisitance. With their car bombs and roadside ambushes, aren't they just doing what most of us on The High Road would do in a similar situation? I mean, isn't that why some of us have guns? The 'A Rifle Behind Every Blade of Grass' theory?

Wouldn't we be doing the same thing if Tony Blair had decided to 'save' us from Clinton, and then stationed a squad of troops on each street corner?

I guess what I'm getting at, besides a minor rant that is likely to get me called a traitor and a Troll, is does anyone else sympathize with the Iraqi freedom fighters?

The only things I am not able to sympathize with are the incidents where those mobs dragged our killed people thorugh the street, and now the beheading incident. I really don't see myself able to participate in that kind of thing. But, fighting back against foreign soldiers on our soil? Yes.

greg

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Destructo6
May 13, 2004, 05:22 AM
If the leader of my country was a Saddam/Hitler/Mao/Stalin/... I don't think I would harass even blue helmets.

That assumes, of course, that I did not have a vested interest in re-installing the former leaders (eg ex-SS/Stasi/KGB).
I guess what I'm getting at, besides a minor rant that is likely to get me called a traitor and a Troll, is does anyone else sympathize with the Iraqi freedom fighters?
You're alone on that one. I have no sympathy for these people or the werewolves, NLF or others.

priv8ter
May 13, 2004, 05:34 AM
If the leader of my country was a Saddam/Hitler/Mao/Stalin/... I don't think I would harass even blue helmets.

And, they didn't harass us at first. When we were getting rid of Saddam. It's when we said, Hmmm...I think we'll have to stick around a little bit, and turned into an occupiying Army, that things got bad.

And what depresses me the most is, ITS NOT GOING TO MATTER! Who ever we leave in charge over there, 5 years from now, will have morphed into some form of dictatorship, which will hate us.

greg

killermarmot
May 13, 2004, 05:41 AM
yeah, no, I don't sympathize with the terrorists at all. Reason being is, the vast majority of the people leading them are NOT Iraqis. They are outsiders with a vested interest in seeing 1) the United States fail, 2) the new Iraqi government fail, 3) being the biggest warlord on the block. If these various terrorist or "freedom fighters" (which is a label I think is laughable) got their way and the US, UN, and everyone else left, it would be a massive blood bath (not to mention a liekly genocide of the Kurds) as all the rival groups struggled to take power. I also think the comparison between these people and American revolutionaries is not only absurd, it is a complete logical falicy to compare the two. These people are exploiting a people who are in an undeniably rough transfer from a system that was brutal, yet stable for the most part, they are in virtual anarchy. If they wanted to do their country a favor they would knock this s$#t off so we could get out of there and they could run their country like civilized human beings, but it's hard to exploit people's minds and use them for your cause when they are free to inform themselves in an open democratic society. Not to rant or anything but these people are vermin who have only their personal will at heart, not the good of the nation they are suposedly fighting for.
<breath>

(not a personal attack on you priv8ter I just get into arguments about this almost everyday with my professors and I just think it's time we see these people for what they are. They don't care if some protestor in America supports them or empathizes with their cause, they just want power over the people of Iraq the way Saddam had, now that he's gone they're looking for a promotion.)

dischord
May 13, 2004, 07:27 AM
priv8ter,

You ask a valid question. I don't blame them for fighting us any more than I blame the German soldiers for fighting in 1944. That doesn't mean I think Hitler was good or that we were bad.

However killermarmot also makes a valid point about who actually is fighting us.

Bog
May 13, 2004, 07:28 AM
If the "freedom fighters" in Iraq made even the slightest attempt to limit their killings to military targets, I might sympathise, if not agree.

If the "freedom fighters" in Iraq didn't hide on sanctified ground, or behind civillians and fire into our forces, I might have a shred of respect for them.

If the "freedom fighters" in Iraq didn't keep demonstrating their utter contempt for human life - theirs and the lives of those surrounding them, as well as our own troops... well then I might think they were worth saving, or sitting down at a table.

The problem is fanatacism. The problem is that their codes of behaviour and their values make the phrase "The End Justifies the Means" seem like kid-gloves.

I'll qualify, and say "In terms of the information I've seen". For all I know, there have been hundred of "honourably fought", in "our" terms, engagements. I don't trust the news media enough to think that they're not just showing us what we'd see as "cowardly" engagements. You think you'd have heard *something*, though, wouldn't you?

Leatherneck
May 13, 2004, 07:41 AM
killermarmot nailed it. While I was firmly in the camp that said, before the war, "We're going to invade WHO?":scrutiny: I think everything's very different there now. The borders are so porous that every thug, bandit, and terrorist in the Middle East is siezing the opportunity to join the food foght in the cafeteria. Although I find claims that AQ was present in Iraq before we invaded to be dubious at best, I think there's not any doubt that they're there now, in spades.

And yes, I understand that Iraqis, like Americans, don't much like being occupied by foreigners who, in the final analysis, aren't all that likable. Time to finish up and get out, I think. Iraq will be what it will be. Who knows, we may get lucky.

TC
TFL Survivor

edit to clarify: Time to finish up and get out, assuming we're not going to go all the way and really occupy Iraq.

priv8ter
May 13, 2004, 07:55 AM
Bog, you make some good points. When you consider that they are blowing up bombs outside thier own temples...makes it kind of hard to see what point they are trying to make.

In Red Dawn, it was always so easy to fight back against the soldiers. They didn't need to worry about Russian Contractors.

greg

Bog
May 13, 2004, 08:01 AM
I feel the need to clarify... I don't blame the Iraqi people for this. I blame the hate-stirrers who whip otherwise sane people up into frenzied mobs. I blame the religious leaders who , either through "honest" hatred, or the sickening desire for control over other people, use these poor saps as weapons.

The average Joe (or Farouk or whoever) in the street? He's probably as blameless as you or I. Heck, possibly more so, having had no voice in his country's leadership at all. Probably a nice fella.

It's those for, whichever reason, are susceptable to having their brains tied in knots by their leaders who I pity, and the ones who warp their minds with hatred and fear I despise.

Waitone
May 13, 2004, 10:44 AM
Take the violence, pull out all the violence caused by foreign fights, find out which Iraqi's are doing the violence thing, then blame them.

Your average Iraqi is just like your average American. They want to be left alone to live their own lives free of coersion.

If you are dismayed we won't get out anytime soon, you just don't understand what is happening. Our attack on Iraq bottom line was to insert ourselves militarily into the most dangerous, unstable area of the planet. We are in the process of setting up a military infrastructure similar to what we have in Europe. The war on islamofascist terrormongers is the 21st century equivelent of the cold war. Think generations of committment. Think intimate involvement in local politics. Think in terms of a permanent military presence for multiple decades.

Liberation of oppressed people, WMD, killing fields are all valid fig leaves, but fig leaves nonetheless.

fix
May 13, 2004, 11:54 AM
You make the mistake of assuming that the insurgents are in fact "freedom fighters" when they are actually the opposite. They are fighting to prevent freedom, because they are fully aware that they do not represent the mainstream and will be completely marginalized once true freedom takes hold.

longeyes
May 13, 2004, 12:11 PM
Let's not romanticize insurgents battling for the return of Big Brother. They are not fighting for "freedom," they are fighting for the right to control and oppress in the old way. You may not like everything about the American Way but the militants in Iraq represent mankind's past, not its future. Tribalism is not idyllic--except for the few running the show and determining everyone else's options.

oldfart
May 13, 2004, 02:31 PM
The people of the middle east have never known a government like ours. For the past 3000 or so years they have had an endless parade of kings, sheiks, dictators, a few "administrators" and countless warlords. If, by some wild train of events, we were to install a representative government in Iraq this summer, it wouldn't last long enough for us to get our troops out of the country. That doesn't mean the Iraqis are bad, it only means they are relatively ignorant of certain things we take for granted.

An unfortunate side efeect of that same 3000 years has been their utter dependence upon totalitarian rule. It's all they've ever known and the only thing they respect. In our country and our society respect is a good thing. Over there 'respect' is another name for fear.

Recently I read of some city in western Iraq that was held by U.S. Marines. In answer to repeated hit and run attacks by snipers, the Marines took off the silk goves and went door-to-door, kicking down said doors, finding and confiscating weapons and arresting their owners. When the fun was over, the Marines were surprised by the friendly actions of those whom they had just rousted.

In my own experience, I have had bullies pick on me until I got fed up with it and stood up to them. In at least one case, the bully not only stopped bugging me but eventually became a friend.

We are going to be fighting in Iraq for a long time, but better there than here.

foghornl
May 13, 2004, 03:02 PM
My 1/50 of $1:

The overwhelming majority of the Iraqi people are like people everywhere else...They are honest, hard-working Good Guys, that just want to go about their lives (life, liberty & persuit of happiness) without worrying about going POOF! in the middle of the night for criticizing the .guv.

Publically saying something like "The King is a Fink!" would get you:

1. Immediately shot
2. Tortured untill you died
3. Other 'select' members of your family would get the same.

That being said, there is a very miniscule percentage that are the 'trouble-makers'. And lots of 'outside instigators', too. I remember seeing something a few weeks back that most of the insurgents being killed/captured were from other countries, Syria being a leader in that aspect.

Short answer, the Iraqi people per se are NOT the bad guys.

Quartus
May 13, 2004, 03:03 PM
There's plenty of blame to go around. Look at how often we've been bitten by our little habit of supporting scumbag dictators against OTHER scumbag dicators who happen to be biting us at some point it time.

If we'd never started messing in the affairs of other sovereign nations, we'd have saved some American lives.

bountyhunter
May 13, 2004, 03:18 PM
I guess what I'm getting at, besides a minor rant that is likely to get me called a traitor and a Troll, is does anyone else sympathize with the Iraqi freedom fighters? It's a complex question. In fact, the major content of what you refer to as "freedom fighters" are the remnants of Saddam's republican guard now fighting with Al Qaeda. The RG are not fighting for freedom, they are fighting to maintain control of Iraq and it's enormous wealth in oil. They were top dogs under Hussein and will lose that spot if a representative government is in place because the Shiites are the majority of the population (not the Sunnis, of whom most RG are composed). I have little sympathy for them, as they have clearly shown they will happily vaporize their own citizens to get at US targets. I don't think "freedom fighter" is an appropriate title... more like hired thug trying to keep power.

As for the large Al Qaeda element now in Iraq, they are simply there to kill Americans and destablilize the government so they can install an Islamic regime like in Iran.

I don't see any freedom fighters in Iraq.

However, I think it's likely true that the majority of Iraqi citizens just wish that Al Qaeda and US forces would all go home so they could just try to get through the days without being shot or bombed. I don't think most Iraqi's are our enemy, but I think they do blame us for the mess we made of their country. And I would have a hard time disputing that opinion.

Destructo6
May 13, 2004, 09:07 PM
And, they didn't harass us at first.
Just what and who do you mean by "they"?

If you mean Baathists, they did...you know, the Republican Guard. No reason for them to stop now.

If you mean Iranian agents who would like to annex the south, they weren't there, "at first."

If you mean the average Iraqi, I don't think they are against us.

seeker_two
May 13, 2004, 10:34 PM
killermarmot got it in one....:cool:

Most of these "freedom fighters" (:barf: ) are terrorists from countries like Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and other Middle East nations who'd rather have Saddam (or worse) back in power than see a representative republic allied w/ the US develop in Iraq. And they crossed the sparsly-guarded Iraqi border illegally to act out their evil terrorist plots (sound like any other country we know?...:scrutiny: )

Also remember that these same terrorists are killing Iraqi citizens too.

One thing about the situation---it makes picking out other nations in need of "liberation" easy to do... :evil:

rayra
May 13, 2004, 11:25 PM
On the other hand, I'm not sure if I can hate the Iraqi resisitance. With their car bombs and roadside ambushes, aren't they just doing what most of us on The High Road would do in a similar situation? I mean, isn't that why some of us have guns? The 'A Rifle Behind Every Blade of Grass' theory? Better do some investigation priv8ter, becuase you've bought the media's / anti-war / Dem / Michael Moore lies about 'Iraqi insurgents / militiament' hook, line, and sinker.

It's Sunni Baathists - the family-clan that got thrown out after 30+ yrs of rule.
It's Saddam's Fedayeen - gangster's, thugs, criminals, and the truly insane of his 13 different 'security' forces.
It's fanatical Islamic jihadists coming by the buslaod from Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Egypt, Saudi Arabia - article after article from DURING the first 3 weeks, and ever since, of waves of attackers being cut down, yielding their NON-Iraqi identification papers / passports.
It's the jihadist terrorist organizations, several of which are documented as having had ties to IRaqi Intelligence BEFORE 9/11 & since. Several were hosted in the country, several were captured in the country AFTER 3/20/03

Lastly, it's a cross-section of the poor thugs in the Shiite community, leavened with Iranian trained and backed forces, that were parading around as Sadr's 'Mehdi Army' - Sadr himself with Iranian backing and funding. We've been killing them pretty steadily the last few weeks.

NOWHERE in there are 'average Iraqis' 'rising up to throw out the Occupiers'.

There have been several polls, some by Left-leaning media orgs like BBC & ABC seeking to bolster their Anti-US propaganda, and all of them show a clear large majority of Iraqis of ALL types WANT us there, NEED us there.

You need to start looking at warblogs, military blogs, Iraqi-citizen blogs, and other legit internet sources to put together what is REALLY happening in Iraq. And what AP / Reuters / Time-Warner / and the rest of the Liberal media are reporting is NOT what is really happening there.

7.62FullMetalJacket
May 14, 2004, 02:00 AM
It would be very difficult to make the parallel between a foreign power invading the US and a world power invading Iraq. Whatever the purpose was is irrelevant. We removed a brutal dictator which held all the power of government. This made a large pool of "losers" after the liberation. Add in foreign mercenaries fighting for "a" cause. Stir. Set oven on broil. ;)

The insurgents are not freedom fighters. They are antithetical to freedom. They are in a power grab in a perceived power vacuum, or foreign pot stirrers. The bushel of apples has a few bad ones.

The US (We) must alter the strategy and follow through on the promise of liberation. The Iraqi economy is growing, the Dinar is stable, all of the infrastructure is nearly rebuilt or, in some cases, better than it was.

Preacherman has some Iraqi blogs posted

here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81766)

Iraqis are working, starting businesses, have freedom of association, there are an estimated 1,200 newspapers, radio is starting up, etc.

All indicators are looking up. If we can just hold it together, the rout the rabble, then I think the Iraqis have a good chance at freedom.

BTW, bountyhunter, good post.

;)

Art Eatman
May 14, 2004, 02:27 AM
If those shooting at us were indeed "Freedom Fighters", they would quit shooting. The sooner the shooting stops, the sooner we quit interfering with Iraqis doing an Iraqi thing insofar as selling oil and running their own affairs.

Sure, we'd like to have bases in some part of western Iraq, away from their population and agricultural centers. But those would be of no more harm to Iraq than our past bases have been in Germany or England.

Art

4570Rick
May 14, 2004, 03:10 AM
No. In a word, no, I do not blame the people of Iraq. That would, in my opinion, mean I blame every man, woman, and child in Iraq. I watched the video yesterday and I'll admit my first feeling was GLASS* Iraq. Then I thought about the Spec Opps Marine I met just after the 1st of April. He told me some stories of the people he met there and about the Iraqi who threw himself in front of a suicide bomber dying to save some soldiers he didn't know. So having given myself 24 hrs to process all the info of the last few days, I can say with a clear concience; I wish the most painful, God awful, merciless death on those who perpetrate acts of terrorism against any people and not against Iraq.

atek3
May 14, 2004, 05:26 AM
but if germany, england, or iraq told us to take our bases and shove them, we'd leave right?

atek3

RealGun
May 14, 2004, 11:31 AM
does anyone else sympathize with the Iraqi freedom fighters?

I do not regard them as "freedom fighters". I believe them to be jihadists, many from other countries or influenced by them. I don't for a moment believe they have any noble purpose, nor do I think they represent the Iraqi people, the Muslim faith or any other belief except violent radicalism, a pox upon this planet. I make no real distinction between an armed and dangerous felon on the loose and your "Iraqi freedom fighters". I believe it behooves us all to put an end to it or support those whose job it is to try.

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