[Alan Fud]

How did you decide which self defense ammo to use? What did you base your decision on? What LEOs carry? What gun rags recommend? What gun boards recommend? What was your source of information for making your decision?

[Valkman]

I knew I wanted HP for stopping power and over-penetration issues, the only question was which one for my .45acp. I figure there's not a whole lot of difference between rounds like Golden Saber, Hydrashock, Ranger, etc., and had carried Hydrashocks before. This time though I went with Rangers because it's what alot of LEO's use and I heard good things about it from people I trust. Nothing very scientific about it - in fact I may make up my own reloads to carry when I have the time to work on them.

[Hkmp5sd]

First and foremost, it had to be 100% reliable in my carry gun. Then I read magazines and reports on the effectiveness of each round compared to the others. One that would adequately expand and provide enough energy transfer to do sufficient damage without overpenetration problems.

[cordex]

I got together a thousand rare goats and - while kicking myself for leaving my camera at home - started loading magazines.

[Chip Dixon]

Well, that depends on the gun type. For my 1911 (semi-auto) carry piece, I got 400 rounds of a lot of different types of hollow points (for summer carry). I got Corbons +P HPs, Winchester silvertips, Winchester white box HPs, and hydrashoks. I did not manage to make the gun choke once on any of these loads, so none of them were disqualified by that criteria. So, I picked the one that did the most damage to my targets (fruit and wood) and that I had the most accuracy with.

That was the Cor-Bon 185 gr. JHP 45 ACP+Ps.

When I can find them around here (or I can order some with my next C&R shipment..) I will be trying some PowrBall ammo and Gold Dots to compare. I usually carry FMJ in the winter for penetration purposes, but the PowrBall may be my new choice come this winter if I like it.

For revolvers, less ammo is needed to test for reliablility. Basically, if it ejects easy it is okay to use. I tend to carry my Model 10 as my beater gun, (as the finish is long gone) loaded either with Winchester 125 gr. 38sp+Ps, 158 gr. LSWCHP, or straight up 150gr. lead. (depending on the weather, and therefore what type of clothing I would have to shoot through)

Don't just go make an ammo choice for semi-auto carrying based on hype. You NEED to make sure it doesn't jam up your gun, and that you can shoot accurately with it. 2 guns of the same make and model can have completely different preferences when it comes to ammo. It's kind of like shotgun ammo patterning in that regard. You're betting your life on your ammo choice. Spend the money to make sure you make the right choice. Carry ammo isn't cheap for non-reloaders, but your life is priceless.

Best Regards,

Chip Dixon

[sm]

Thanks a lot cordex...you coulda shared the info. Could've had a goat roast and invited folks :D

I Ran a min of 200 rds for 100% reliabilty with various ammo I checked POI/POA , tested via the "Scientific Mud Test" ( tm) and " I shoot Dirt Test" ( tm)

So I grab what is handy from those I tested.

[OF]

I read everything I could get my hands on, payed close attention to many (many) online debates between people who know alot more about this stuff than I do and from those debates, I decide who I think is making the most sense. Then I look at what they recommend.

Works for me.

- Gabe

[mainmech48]

Pretty much the same as the others. I looked over the published data, bought a couple of hundred rounds of each of the top picks, and tried them in my CCW pistol. When reliability didn't present itself as an issue, I went with the one that grouped best in my gun and shot to POA.

[M2 Carbine]

I test it myself.

For expanding/hollowpoints I shoot a one gallon water jug with a box of rags behind to catch the bullet.

The base line being, if a bullet won't expand in a water jug I'm not interested.
Once in a while I read where a bullet that I rejected does expand in jello. I still won't use it, there's too many other good bullets to use that aren't that borderline.
But mostly over the years my informal tests are close to the jello tests, within reason.
Nothing is perfect.

Then I chronograph the round.

So between how good the bullet expands, how far it penetrates the rag box and it's speed I decide if it's worth a lot of shooting for reliability.

Most all of the modern loads are pretty good.

[Logistar]

When I got my 9mm carry gun I bought Winchester White Box Personal Protection HPs at Wal-Mart.

The idea was that I'd use these until I found what I liked best. I then tried Speer, etc. For some reason I LIKED them but the search went on for that KILLER round.

While trying all kinds of stuff, I never found anything I liked any better (even though everything else was MUCH more expensive). THEN I found some tests (AMMOLAB maybe???) and the WWB JHPs ranked right up there in the tests.

I gave up. I am happy with the Winchesters.

1. Feed reliably. (Speer didn't seem as "smooth" in my gun.)
2. Accurate. Plenty good for a short barrel and me behind it! ;)
3. Inexpensive! I can shoot my carry load a LOT and cycle it often!

Works for me!

Logistar

[Chupacabra]

I picked Golden Sabers because the name sounds cool! :D

J/K!

:neener:

Seriously - In the beginning, I had heard a lot of good things about Hydrashocks so I bought a couple boxes for my USP. They worked flawlessly (of course) and I carried those for about a year. Then I bought a 1911 and used Hydrashocks in that. Worked great. Then one day I decided it was time to cycle the carry ammo and I shot all of it up. On a whim, I decided to try the Golden Sabres. Tested them out in both my guns and they work great too. I've been carrying those ever since (165s for the USP and 230s for the 1911). I figure someday I'll decide to try something new again, maybe CorBons, Gold Dots or those fancy-schmansy Ranger SXT's! They're all good.

[cratz2]

Well, back in the day, I always though 230 Gr HydraShoks were the way to go and that probably had a lot to do with what Evan Marshall said would work. And with as many people that took his advice (both citizens and LEAs) that seemed like the round to carry.

Flash forward several years to around 1997, I was on a CorBon/Triton trip. I was mostly into 9mms by then and was a big believer in the faster the better, without much regard to bullet design.

A bit more recently than that, I like Gold Dots and Winchester Talons/Rangers in 9mm, 40 and 45 and Golden Sabers in 40 and 45. They tend to be reliable in modern pistols and seem to be well respected with pretty much any 'authority' including Marshall and his detractors. I figure when both sides agree, they must be on to something.

As long as they are reliable in the gun, I'd feel very condifent with Gold Dots or Rangers. And Golden Sabers in 40 and 45... just not fond of the Remingtons in 9mm.

[Treylis]

230-grain .45ACP Ranger Talons because of the ballistics I've read about and because of their former "evil history" as Black Talons. ;-)

[Mannlicher]

I am always looking at different ammo. I need whatever I carry to be reliable, and accurate. These two are more important to me than terminal performance.
In some of my handguns, I like Factory ammo. I carry HydroShocks in my .45 ACP, and in my BHP .40, and CZ Compact 9mm
I carry handloads in all my revolvers

[Lone_Gunman]

In 45, I pick 230g Hardball in my 1911s. It'll blow your head clean off, you know.

[Treylis]

In 45, I pick 230g Hardball in my 1911s. It'll blow your head clean off, you know.

Yeah, I heard that if you get hit on the pinky of your hand, you'll not only be stone-dead, you'll also do a twisting pirouette in the air as you get knocked back. ;-)

[duckfoot]

Surplus mil spec .45ACP 230 FMJ's. Had to mercy shoot a cow, that was hit by a truck and have seen what hard ball will do, made me a believer.

[BluesBear]

I just watch CSI and pay attention to whatever they dig out of a corpse and then I go out and buy a case.

[priv8ter]

I just watch CSI and pay attention to whatever they dig out of a corpse and then I go out and buy a case.

Then, where did you find the meat bullets? I could use some.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16718&highlight=meat+bullet

In my .45's, I carry 230gr Hardball. The 1911, because it is what is was designed for, and in the Firestorm, because I fear the barrel might be too short to get good expansion out of a HP.

In my wifes .380, we use Federal Hyrda-shoks. They were the first HP's we tried, and they have worked whenever she pulled the trigger. I haven't seen anything ballistically on paper that has convinced me to spend the money to test out anything else.

In my SP-101, I load whatever happens to be cheapest when I need new ammo. For a while, it was 125gr WWB 38 +P. Right now, it's WWB 110 .357. I might move back up in weight the more I hear about the new 135gr load out there.

greg

[Ben Shepherd]

I use handloaded 158gr gold dots in my 357mag sp101.

Chose them because the expand in almost any medium if they're at 1100fps or better. But when you run them real fast(rifle) they still hold together pretty well.

Also in the accuracy dept, they will cut a 5 shot 40 caliber ragged hole at 10 yards all day long out of my sp101. And out of my rifle they run that same hole at 25 yards.

I carry my handloads not because the factory gold dot is bad, but mostly because I wanted just a tad more speed than the factory speer load offers for my snubby. In my 3" security six, or any of my other 357s with a longer barrel the factory round is hard to beat(unless you're building garret/buffalo bore style stuff).

[mspears]

I try to follow what Evan Marshall recommends for a given caliber and barrel length. Since he has documented so many real street shootings, I feel his observations and recommendations only make sense to follow. For example: Evan Marshall AND Masaad Ayoob both recommend Federal (or Remington)125 grain JHP in .357. That's what I carry in my 2.25" Ruger SP101. I figure I can't go wrong with that one. Evan also very highly recommends 158 grain LSWCHP +P's for the .38 special in snubby barrels. I would carry this load IF I could find it, but the manual for my Taurus model 85CHULT UltraLite/Titanium wants me to ONLY shoot jacketd ammo. In this case I've chosen CorBon's .38 110 grain JHP +P's bases on e-mails to CorBon reqesting test information (Mike Shovel at CorBon is very good at replying to e-mails) and running those results by Evan on his web site. By the way, CorBon is releasing a .38 DPX (Barnes X-Bullet) soon and Evan will jello test it and post the results. Bottom line is, I rely heavily on the people I feel really know what to recommend based on real life shootings.

[BluesBear]

...because I fear the barrel might be too short to get good expansion out of a HP. A 230gr JHP should penetrate just fine and it will have less riccochet possibilities if you should miss. FMJ tend to skip and keep going when they hit a hard surface while JHP tend to tumble and slow down rapidly.

If you should get lucky and get expansion then that's all the better.

[Ky Larry]

I use whatever is the most reliable. IMHO, combat accuracy is about the same with most ammo. In a real life gun fight, I'll probably be within bad breath range so a fraction of an inch difference in accuracy at 35 yards is not important. If it won't feed and extract reliably, who cares how accurate it is or if it expands in water jugs or what the muzzle velocity is? If you do your part, the ammo will do its part. YMMV.

[Ben Shepherd]

Ky Larry (and any others following this thread) let me clarify. I agree with Larry on the combat accuracy point, but it's good to know that match grade accuracy is there if needed. I intend to stack the chips as far in my favor as possible.

No flamin' on the new guy(mspears WELCOME ABOARD!!!) . He answered the question asked, and this isn't a Fackler vs. Marshall thread.
;)

[roo_ster]

1. Make sure what you pick is reliable in THAT SPECIFIC WEAPON.
2. Check for reliability, again, just to make sure (use whatever number of rounds you are comfortable with).
3. All else is tertiary if it won't cycle in your semi-auto (revo-packers get by easy).

As to specifics for MY weapons:

SW1911 likes Remmy 230gr Golden Sabers. Reliable, accurate. I carried 230gr hardball until I tested the GS & did not feel I was compromising. If your .45 will only feed hardball, no need to wail & gnash your teeth. HPs are preferred, but .45 hardball will do the trick.

AMT .45 Backup likes 230gr hardball & that's what it gets. I could spend time/$$$ looking for a reliable HP for it, but with a 3" bbl, expansion will be a fluke. AMT may have had spotty quality, but this baby is a case in point that a short bbl doesn't mean short on acuracy. Its kinda scary, actually. FWIW, it will also cycle CCI ratshot cartridges. Uncanny.

Kel-tec P40 likes Federal 165gr Hydro shoks & thats it for HP.

Kel-tec P32 will feed & fire any .32ACP I have stuffed into its magazine.

[sturmruger]

I guess I have never cared to much about my carry ammo. I tend to buy whatever is on sale. I mostly carry HPs becuase I know it is better to get some expansion out of them. The last three rounds of a mag I will often put in FMJ. I like the idea that if I go through 7 rounds and can't hit what I am shooting at then maybe i can use the FMJ rounds to shoot through whatever might be blocking my shot. I thought about buying some tracer ammo and using that at the end of my mags so I know when i am getting close to being out of ammo maybe that is just a gimic I don't know if that would help.


I do test a mag or two of whatever ammo is sitting in my CCW piece to make sure it feeds properly.

[lycanthrope]

I load mine myself. It allows me to find what the gun likes and I can afford to run several thousand through it to determine reliability.

I don't care what any lawyer says. I deserve the best ammo for my gun and I htink that only comes through the custom shop in my house.

Currently, it's .40 SW, 125gr Sinterfire Frangibles at 1400fps.

[forquidder]

eenie-meenie-mynie-mo :D

[Smoke]

I walked into a store and said "What's the cheapest 45acp on the shelf?"

Smoke

[OF]

We won't get into it here, but I humbly suggest you run a search here (http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=78) for 'marshall' or 'sanow' and read a bit before relying on their recommendations for ammunition. There's also plenty of discussion on the topic in the archives right here at THR worth reading, too.

- Gabe

PS: Welcome to THR!

[blades67]

I load my own. My practice/competition ammunition and my carry ammunition both come off the same press. I trust me.

[Alan Fud]

GRD, I own a few books by Marshall and am familiar with his one-shot stop statistics. I am also aware of Fackner's [sp] work which deals tissue damage instead. Both present very interesting arguements. Both usually are on opposite sides of the field. Both can't be right.

[Hypnogator]

I chose Hydra-Shoks after seeing autopsy and recovered bullet photos accompanying a paper presented at the American Academy of Forensic Sciences annual meeting when they first came out. They've been 100% reliable in any gun and caliber I ever used them in.

I currently carry 230-gr Hydra Shoks in my .45, but carry 60-gr Cor-Bons in my P-32 because they are loaded hotter than the Federal loadings.

Will probably try the 200-gr Power Ball when Cor-Bon comes out with it. I'm not married to any of these cartridges, and wouldn't feel under-gunned with any of the premium JHP ammo now on the market.

[Rickstir]

I shoot JHP's in .38 +p in my .357 and 9mm. Same round the local sheriff department uses. No "evil" rounds in my mags Mr. Lawyer.

[SapperLeader]

I usually research which loads are good within a give caliber, and tend to prefer hp over fmj. There are exceptions, as I use fmj in .32, and am still debating on which to use in .380. For 38 special and 9mm and up, I use hollow points though. Once I find a certain load i like the ballistics of, I test it in my gun. If the gun seems to like it, I buy a lot more, and see if the gun will feed over 200 rounds. If thats the case, its my carry load. So far gold dot 124 gr standard pressure has worked in all my 9mm carry guns but my star bm which prefers the winchester white box 115gr jhp. Im about to upgrade to 124+p and just recieved a case worth to start testing each gun. Reliability is key in my guns, but I also take into consideration its paper ballistics.

[OF]

Both can't be right.Yup. Research the topic enough and it starts to become very clear who's right and who's blowing smoke. When I decided to figure out what ammo I wanted to depend on, I started reading. The great thing about online forums is you can actually watch the two sides debate each other, mull it over and then decide for yourself who you think has the better argument. An invaluable resource.

- Gabe

[BWC]

When they first came out I shot a bunch of .45 Hydra Shoks, liked them, they were reliable, and carried them.

A couple of years ago I got ahold of .45 +P Rangers (formerly Black Talons), shot up a bunch of that and liked it as well, and made the switch to that, even though it has become a bit hard to get in quantity.

I have also tried and like the 165 & 185gr +P CorBons, but have never carried it........ And I am considering the Golen Sabers as well.

Pick something that should do the job, shoot it enough to get comfortable with it, then carry with confidence. But still keep your eyes & ears open for something better......things are always changing.

[DonGlock26]

I use the heaviest round in that caliber. Then, I use the ammo that performs the best in FBI style testing. I use RangerT and Golddots.

[standingbear]

to make a long story short-I tried several handguns in various calibers to see which ones I was most comfortable with and most accurate with-they had to fall within a certain pricerange and be affordable to me.I then went with testing them on a groundhog hunt(fast lil boogers aint they?).tested the choices for expansion and penetration in a variety of things like fiberboard in layers and clay(and a few tree trunks-both wet & dry- cut in sections).tested the accuracy in ranges from 5 feet to 50 yards to see how the bullet was going to react after hitting various obsticles and where it was going past the initial target.prolly not the best way to find a selection of defensive carry ammo but it was how I did it.

[Wildalaska]

Its all the same, whatever shoots best in your gun


WildchoiceschoicesAlaska

[themic]

i picked out:

9mm 115gr JHP by S&B. Tried it out because it was cheap, and i like the sealed primers. Reputation for hard primers, though. So I ran a whole bunch through my RAP and had no problems. Hard primers NOT a problem for that gun, jeez, with that trigger pull.

.45 ACP 230gr JHP CCI Blazer. "The Flying ashtray." Again, picked because it was cheap, tried it through my Colt 1991 and all worked fine. So I kept it.

On both, I picked stuff that was cheap enough to practice with on a regular basis, they both went through the ringer and work fine, and so I keep them.

I am also an apartment dweller, so I picked them for shallower penetration. Don't want to shoot through the walls and nab an innocent. The 9mm is a lighter bullet, and the ashtray is so ridiculously wide open that it should pretty much dump it's energy fairly well. I hope. Haven't seen too many gel tests with it. Or none. And neither are +P or anything like that. Just good solid cheap reliable (in my guns) JHP ammo.

[gbelleh]

I choose defense ammo much like most others. There is plenty of data online (velocity, gelatin penetration, expansion, etc. for most barrel lengths). I've also done some informal tests out in rural Kansas. Based on research and personal testing and experience, I usually pick one of the heaviest Speer Gold Dot rounds available for the caliber. Gold Dots have always performed consistently in my specific guns and all recovered bullets have been perfectly expanded. Accuracy has also been very good. I've also had very good results with Remington Golden Saber.

My current carry rotation ammo includes:
Speer Gold Dot:
9mm (124gr +p)
.45 (230gr)
.38 sp (125gr +p)

Remington Golden Saber:
.45 (230gr)
.380 (102gr)

Federal:
.38 sp (158gr +p SWCHP)

[Smoke]

Maybe I should clarify my feelings:

It is less important what you hit them with, than that you hit them.

Smoke

[Dave R]

Here's what I did.

First, I shot for group size/accuracy.

Then, I shot wet newsprint media so I could see with my own two eyeballs what kind of expasion/penetration I would get.

Yeah, I know--its perfect if I get attacked bywet newsprint...Right, its not the same as the terminal performance in a body, but it allows me to see differences between one kind of ammo and another. And it allowed me to see how many layers of denim were required to keep it from expanding.

So I feel pretty comfortable that I know how my chosed ammo will perform.

[shooter1]

Pretty much any of the premium factory loadings are good in the mid to heavy weight range. I stay away from the magic bullets, like the 90gr .45 bullets at warp 2, that penetrates 2" of armor plate and then expands to .70 in a grape. You know the ones!
str1

[threefeathers]

I go to ammolab.com and look at the results. Then I look at what the local police use. I however am most impressed with the consistance of Taurus Hex in 45 ACP. I use Golden Saber in 9mm, and Corbon in 40 Smith. Am going to test my new Sig in 357 Sig and see.

[MrPink]

I carry an S&W340PD loaded with Proload's "Tactical Lite" 357 125 grain Golddot. I like the Golddot bonded technology and seems to have good tests, press, etc.

I got to this load because full power magnums REALLY HURT in this gun. The 130 grain Federal Hydrashok Personal Defense load I use to carry was selected for the same reason - but that is even stiffer than the Proload.

Speer is now out with a Golddot 38+P that I'll try and probably use. I'm trying to go for the hardest hitting, lightest kicking round and like the fact that its specifically designed for snubbies with a large HP.

[Mil Novecientos Once]

Personal Defense Ammunition Functional Reliability Test for Semiautomatic Handguns (http://www.firearmstactical.com./briefs25.htm)


A Simple Method for Testing Bullets with Your Guns

http://www.firearmstactical.com./briefs3.htm

A quick and easy method to determine bullet or shotshell performance out of any handgun or shotgun is to gather several (and we mean several -- about 30) cardboard half-gallon milk cartons (plastic won't do).

Fill them full of water, line them up side-by-side three abreast, in three rows of 10 (each carton should be in contact with its neighbor). Back-up several feet and shoot a bullet from your handgun into the center row of cartons.

Count the number of water filled cartons the bullet penetrated, including the carton where the bullet came to rest. Multiply the number of cartons times 2.5 to determine penetration depth in inches. This will give you a SWAG (scientific wild-ass gauge) of how your gun/cartridge combination will perform in soft tissue (both bullet expansion and penetration).

The data obtained and averaged from three test shots should give you a fairly accurate SWAG. Remember to observe all safety rules when handling your firearm.

[Chewie]

First test is reliability, it's got to go bang EVERY time. I've always read good things about Cor Bons in every caliber tested and I've never had a misfire. I carry them because they're accurate enough, reliable, penatrate and expand well. I carry them in 45 aurto, 44 special and will in 9mm once the gun is broken in.

[Blackhawk 6]

For my primary carry gun the procedure is as follows:

Academic research:

I consider major manufactuters for loads that have approximately 400 ft/lbs muzzle energy, high weight retention and ood expansion using the FBI protocols. This usually narrows the field to 3 to 5 loads.

Market research:

I check the local gun stores for availability and cost. While most things can be purchased via the internet, I prefer to be able to lay my hands on a box or two when I want. Cost becomes a factor only if one load is substantially more expensivce than another. Generally, this reduces the field to 2 or 3 loads.

Range testing:

I buy 50 rounds of each of the prospective loads. At the range, I chronograph each load out of my carry gun to confirm the manufacturers data. I then put between 200-250 rounds of ball through my carry gun. I then shoot my standard practice regimen with each load and my carry magazines. Any stoppages disqualify the load. Finally I compare my times and accuracy with each load. The best load becomes the carry load and I buy another box or two on the way home from the range.

After my gun and magazines are cleaned, each round is "chamber-checked"
in the barrel of my carry gun before being loaded in one of my carry magazines.

I repeat the range testing portion with my carry load each time I rotate ammunition.

I can not speak to the scientific validity of my method, but the results of my crude methods have been echoed by ballistics experts.

Current carry weapon and load: SIG P-229 9mm w/ Speer 124-grain +P Gold Dots.

[shooter1]

Wow, Blackhawk, I'm thinking our Special Ops pepople might want to adopt your ammo selection process! Me, I just carry the Ranger SXT stuff in my duty guns. Usually Gold Dots or Hornady XTPs in my CCW guns. I do chamber check all my carry ammo though! Just lazy I guess!
str1

[cxm]

I just found a bullet design I like (Remington Golden Saber 230 gr.) bought a thousand of them and loaded them to duplicate factory ballistics.

Once I got the load I wanted worked up, I cranked up the Dillon and turned out 900 more of the load.

This allows me to afford to practice with the same ammo I carry. When I shoot up all but a couple hunders, I get another 1,000 and load them. I then shoot up all the ammo I have been carrying and replace it with new ammo.

FWIW

Chuck