Lights on Guns Bad Idea

[Higgins]

I have debated this issue twice now with two separate gunshop sales people, to wit: lights on the end of pistols are just a bad idea.

I contend that a bright light on the end of a pistol merely gives an intruder/perp who may be armed a beacon to shoot at. I contend that the first instinct of an armed intruder who is willing to fire his weapon, when lit up with a bright light pointed in his direction will be to aim/fire at the light. If that light happens to be on the end of your pistol, you're essentially guiding the intruder/perp where to shoot.

I know that in a home-defense situation, a homeowner has a duty to identify a target before firing, hence the need/desire for a pistol mounted light. And, yes, I realize a pistol mounted light frees up a hand that would otherwise be needed to handle a flashlight and now can be used to control the pistol. Despite the benefits, a pistol mounted light make its user a better target. Which I don't want to be for the sake of convenience. It's the same reason you don't walk patrol along a ridgeline or stand in an open doorway being lit from behind or be the third person to light a cigarette on a single match. It makes you a better target.

Someone back me up here.

[fix]

Sorry. No can do. The benefits outweigh the risks. I don't think it necessarily has to be attached to the pistol, but it sure does make things easier. Use a seperate light to search, then use the pistol light to shoot. That's about the best compromise.

[Beav]

Its gotta come down to how its used.

I wouldn't use a flashlight in the situation you described. If I think I'm going to give my position away before I can locate the BG, well heck no, I'm not turning a flashlight on. Heck if thats the case I might as well stick the flashlight to my face and do a Conan O'Brien Year 2000 skit. :D

But if you do know where the BG is and its dark or dim, I don't see how a flashlight would be a bad thing.

[Logistar]

Unless it affects accuracy or control it is NOT a bad thing. Noone SAYS you have to use it. If I am after a BG in my house I might not use it at all. Maybe I can switch on a remote light and both confuse and identify the BG. Depends on the situation.

If I am camping and I hear wild animal noises outside I'll likely use it then.

I WILL positively ID the target before I shoot. Maybe that will get ME shot one day but it beats ME killing my drunk brother-in-law or my night-owl son.

ANY light coming from (or near) your person might be a bad thing in many situations. (Whether a flashlight OR a weapon-mounted light.)

YMMV - a LOT... just my opinion. Straighten me out guys! :)

Logistar

[buy guns]

try this: at night turn all of the lights out in your house. walk around for awhile to get used to the dark. have a friend randomly jump out from behind a corner and shine a flashlight in your eyes. not too fun is it? all it takes is a quick flash to disorient someone. i imagine that would give you a good window to "secure" the BG.

[Grunt]

Buy guns beat me to it. When you look at the weapons mounted lights (no, not the mini-mag light clipped onto the barrel of a shotgun but a real light like the UTL, M-3/6, surefire lights, etc) with 90+ lumens, it's a pretty bright light. When your eyes aer adjusted to the darkenss and that light is suddenly shined in your eyes, you ain't gonna see much afterwards for a little while not to mention the shock to the BG that somebody is wide awake when they're not suppoed to be!:eek: If he is blinded for a moment, that's your chance to fire if needed while being fairly confident that he's not going to see you, just a bunch of spots.
Now do I think that you should search a room with a light? No. After a bit of training in MOUT, matter of fact, I'd suggest NOT going to look for the bad guy in the first place. When you do, you are now on offense and the BG might get the upper hand by sitting still until you come groping along trying to find him. Now he's got you by the short hairs! My best advice would be to stay in one spot, call 911 on the cell phone by your bed (you DO have a cell phone by your bed, right? :scrutiny: ) and wait for the cops to come in and flush him out. In the mean time, anybody that comes through that door is going to get a full magazine coming at him.
However, if you feel that you must clear your house room by room, my suggestion is keep the light off until either sound or movement is detected, hit the switch on your light, ID the target, lights go out line up your sights (that's why I have tritium sights on all of my defensive handguns) fire then move. If you didn't hear a thud, crash, creative cussing or some other indication that the BG is down, illuminate the area once more from your new position and find out what the status of your situation is. Again, he might have buddies so every time you light up the area, move again making it harder to be a target.
Tactical lights on weapons do have their place. However, they also have their limitations. It's just a matter of light discipline knowing when and where to use them.

[fix]

Grunt, agree with all except one point. For me, when the light goes on...it's on until the end of the engagement.

[Correia]

Stand in a dark room, let your eyes adjust, and let somebody shine a Surefire in your eyes. You won't be be able to return fire at the white light because for the next few seconds, your whole world is bright lights.

You have to identify your target to shoot it. Whether your light is hand held or mounted on the gun doesn't really matter. Yes this does make you a better target, but so does your muzzle flash. You have to do what you have to do.

[krept]

yes, looking for the bad guy isn't really a good idea... BUT... more often than not, I'll bet it was a "WTF was that noise?" situation. I.e... don't really want to call 911 if the cat knocked a basket over... don't really want to crouch from strongside cover waiting for someone to come down the hall because I heard a bump either. So, chances are just grab the handgun and light just to verify what's going on depending on circumstances. Obviously if you wake to the alarm blaring or the sliding glass door then that's a different situation but I digress...

Weapon mounted lights... I don't have one, but think they are a good idea. Having one hand free to open doors, etc. is nice. Being able to call 911 and hold your pistol+light in the other hand is nice. Being able to shoot with both hands in their normal position is nice.

BUT you are correct. A weapon mounted light WILL give your position away. There is no denying that, I just think it's a small tradeoff in light of the benefits.

cheers

[paddykern]

Weather the light is in the hand or on the gun:
1) Light on
2) Quick sweep of room
3) Light off
4) MOVE!

Suspicious area:
1) Light flashed on and off quickly at area of interest (spotting)
2) MOVE!

Around a corner:
1) Light on
2) Quick sweep from far wall to wall standing near
3) Light off
4) MOVE!

The idea is to find and blind the BG. If not found MOVE imediately after the light is off so they can't find you.

paddy
Westland MI

[popbang]

The idea that a bad guy will be blinded by a bright light and simply through his hands up over his eyes does not hold water. An intruder that means you bodily harm has already decided to shoot before the confrontation. The light may blind and cause shots to be less accurate, but rest assured if the bad guy meant to do harm bullets will be coming your way. Even if you use your light in quick flashes if the BG means to do harm lead will fly. Remember they don't care if they miss, they want to stay alive and out of jail.

[444]

Lights mounted on weapons (Good lights that are practical and easy to use) are one of the most significant innovations of the last 30 years.

[Blackhawk 6]

Higgins,

There are a lot of valid arguements that have been put forth regarding the utility of a weapon-mounted light. I would like to comment on another aspect of your post. I believe you are allowing a defensive mindset to influence what is essentially an offensive action.

While I do not care to engage in a discussion regarding the wisdom of clearing your house alone, searching for the intruder(s) places you on the offense. Concern about remaining uninjured dominates a defensive mindset. Not wanting to be shot (or injured in some other fashion) is certainly a valid concern, but should you decide to venture forth from your "safe room" you are on the offense. The number one priority should be the elimination of the threat. This elimination can be accomplished by forcing the person or persons to leave or by subduing them through the threat or use of force. The equipment selected should support that purpose first and foremost.

If you believe that remaining uninjured is the priority, then I would recommend you ensconce yourself in a "safe room," prepare to defend yourself, and call the police. Let them mount the offense.

[shep854]

Paddykern has the right idea. Quick flashes will illuminate an area and help disorient the other person. It will also reduce his night vision. As was said above. a bright flash into night-adjusted eyes will blind them for up to minutes. Also, if the light is bright enough, it will cause real pain to the person's eyes. Even a momentary confusion on the part of the BG is helpful.

Remember, the movies do it wrong!

[tommytrauma]

Higgins, have you taken any low light handgunning classes?

I've taken two, and now have both a weapon mounted light and a hand held surefire, as well as tritium sights.

[Higgins]

I appreciate the comments made, and particularly Blackhawk's comments (echoed by others) about offensive vs. defensive actions in defending a home.

I said nothing about going on the offensive. No where in my original post did I say anything about going out and hunting down an intruder in the home.

That said, my original point stands - whether ensconced in a safe room or out sweeping a home/apartment.

Let's assume you are safely in your "safe room," you've called 911, you've gotten behind protective covering so you can cover the door. It's dark, the intruder (armed and willing to shoot whether in commission of the crime or to defend himself) enters the "safe room" and you immediately light him up with a light. Now, simple logic tells me that by lighting him up with a pistol mounted light, you've done a number of things to help him, mainly, identified to him your exact location in the room and given him a nice bright light to shoot at.

You can't honestly tell me that if you were the intruder, were lit up and were willing to shoot, your first and immediate instinct wouldn't be to fire at the light. Hell, you walk into an unlit room and someone turns on flashlight in one corner, you can't not look. That light immediately becomes the focus of your attention. It's instinct.

Even if you are fortunate enough to get the light right in the intruder's eyes immediately (which isn't a given), he'll still know what direction that light came from and have the first instinct to shoot at the light. And if you are holding that gun, with that light in a two handed grip at eye level - your head and chest are directly behind that light.

Whatever happened to the technique of holding a flashlight out to the side at arms length? Sure it only leaves one hand for the gun, but here is where Blackhawk's defensive mindset helps out my case. If I'm not moving, I'm in my safe room and probably have something to rest my gun on or against anyway, so what if I only have one hand. Are we to assume people are such bad shots that in an 10' x 10' room, with the element of surprise and a pistol rested and ready to fire the chance of missing is so great that we must use two hands and must have a pistol mounted light? And if the perp shoots at the light, which I contend is the natural reaction, with it held at arms length my head and chest aren't behind it.

Try this thought experiment: Two armed people, A and B (let's say paint ball guns) in a totally dark room facing each other at 20 paces. Each has a light. A is told B has a pistol mounted light. B is told A has a flashlight. At the count of three they are to turn on their lights and fire to hit the other. On the count of three, A knows immediately to aim at the light and that B is standing directly behind it. Where does B aim? A could be lefthanded and holding the flashlight out to the right, or he could be righthanded and holding it to the left. In either case, if B shoots at the light - which he will instintively and really what choice does he have since he doesn't know to which side A is standing - A isn't behind the light. B could guess on which side of the light A is standing and aim appropriately, calculating that most people are right handed, so he should aim to the left of the light. Meanwhile, while B has his thinking cap on and is contemplating where A is or might be and where to shoot, A has already shot B numerous times without having to stop and think at all and merely reacting to the light.

Now, for police and military units who are clearing rooms, and in an offensive mode anyway - not to mention geared with helmets and body armor - yeah, lights on pistols probably are a good idea. But just because it works for them in that situation doesn't mean it's the right solution for home defense for Tom, Dick and Jane. And for every gun salesperson to tell people that it is - because it's the trend de jeur in pistol design - just smacks of irresponsibility. They might as well give people nightshirts with bright, fluorescent neon orange targets on the chest to wear when they use their pistol mounted lights.

For those of you who think I still don't have a valid point and think weapon mounted lights are the best thing since sliced bread for home defense, answer me this one simple question: If someone pointed a bright light at you in the dark and you couldn't see that someone but knew or suspected he is armed and going to shoot you, where would you aim?

[444]

"If someone pointed a bright light at you in the dark and you couldn't see that someone but knew or suspected he is armed and going to shoot you, where would you aim?"

I wouldn't aim. I would know that I was "had" and attempt to move to cover. I might attempt to lay down some cover fire but I wouldn't AIM at anything.
Now let me ask you a question. Knowing what you do, if you were illuminated with a light in a defensive situation, what do you think the chances are that you can hit your opponent by "aiming" at the light before he hits you. Keep in mind that the guy with the light is already aiming his gun right at you. He knows where you are and probably has a sight picture. He has a completely clear view of you and his decision to fire has already been made. You are probably being taken by surprise. In the situation you give (you are in a "safe" room), odds are, the guy with the light is behind cover or at least behind a bed.

[JohnKSa]

There's also another little issue that people who advocate gun-mounted lights don't like to talk about.

The light is pointing in the same direction as the muzzle. If you need to turn on your light to see, the chances are, you're using your light to ID the target as well as illuminate it. That means that you are pointing your gun at something that you have not yet identified.

As far as I can see, it breaks the first rule of gun safety.

Sure, you can shine the light at the ceiling and ID the target with the scattered light, but then you lose the benefit of being able to catch them by surprise and blind them with the light. Also, that will probably illuminate you as well as them.

The whole point of a pistol is that it leave a hand free for something else. That something else is a light at my house. I don't point guns at things I can't see well enough to identify.

[Jeff White]

Higgins,
A light is a tool, just like your firearm. If you don't feel comfortable mounting one on your weapon don't. But that doesn't necessarily make everyone who does wrong. The key thing here is to decide what you are most comfortable with and train that way.

Last June I took Stage 1 Shotgun from Louis Awerbuck. I volunteered to demonstrate how fast you could recover from having your dark adapted eyes hit with the beam from a 6 volt SureFire. Louis flashed the light into my eyes from the side while I was standing at low ready. I was to engage a lolipop type swinging plate as soon as I could after being hit with the light. It took several seconds before my eyes readapted enough to to shoot the plate. It was definately enough time for whoever had the light to take me out if they wanted to.

If you look at the distances in most homes, you'll find that you're well within the maximum effective range of a good 6 volt light. If you hit the subject in the face with the light and immediately move it would be very difficult to hit you. If you look at using the light as another weapon, you might find a use for it mounted on your handgun.

You said;
Try this thought experiment: Two armed people, A and B (let's say paint ball guns) in a totally dark room facing each other at 20 paces. Each has a light. A is told B has a pistol mounted light. B is told A has a flashlight. At the count of three they are to turn on their lights and fire to hit the other. On the count of three, A knows immediately to aim at the light and that B is standing directly behind it. Where does B aim? A could be lefthanded and holding the flashlight out to the right, or he could be righthanded and holding it to the left. In either case, if B shoots at the light - which he will instintively and really what choice does he have since he doesn't know to which side A is standing - A isn't behind the light. B could guess on which side of the light A is standing and aim appropriately, calculating that most people are right handed, so he should aim to the left of the light. Meanwhile, while B has his thinking cap on and is contemplating where A is or might be and where to shoot, A has already shot B numerous times without having to stop and think at all and merely reacting to the light.

The winner is going to be the person who knows how to employ his light. It's not going to matter if the light is hand held or weapons mounted, the one who sweeps his opponents face with his bright light is going to win. Once the pupils start dialating looking into the light to aim at it is just going to speed up the process. All hge's going to see is a big red or blue blob in his eyes and the light. He's not going to be able to focus on his sights to aim at the light for several seconds. He's actually going to have to turn away from the light to get enough night vision back to see the sights on his handgun. A hit in the face with the beam from a good light will temporarily incapacitate your opponent. Naturally this won't work as well at distances where the light is diffused. But then again, how big is your house?

Jeff

[gyp_c2]

Sounds like everyone has the right idea...I would just mention that it's tactics and how you use what you have with a little preparation that will swing the odds in your favor.
Like most things, it's not what you have...it's how you use it...

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/bandit.gif

[Blackhawk 6]

Higgins,

Thank you for clarifying the conditions under which you plan on employing your light. Obviously, I misunderstood the context. That said, I think the scenario you presented is unrealistic. Unless you are planning some sort of "wild west showdown" in your bedroom at 3 a.m., these are not the conditions underwhich you will employ your light. A more accurate scenario for the two men equipped with paintball guns is as follows:

Shooter A is outside a locked door. Behind that door, in a darkened room, whose layout he is unfamiliar with, waits Shooter B. Whether shooter B is armed is unknown. Whether Shooter B has a handheld or weapon mounted flashlight is unknown. For whatever reason, Shooter A must enter the room and shoot Shooter B. Inside the room, behind cover and with a field of fire that covers the door, is Shooter B. He knows that Shooter A is somewhere outside the room. Once Shooter A comes through the door Shooter B must shoot him.

In this situation, I believe the type of light one selects is largely irrelevant. The advantage clearly lies with Shooter B and as far as light is concerned he could have the lights in the room turned on and still have the advantage. Shooter B is only going to have to determine whether or not to shoot and in some cases that decision may have already been made when the door is breached. Shooter A has to orient himself to the room (at least in a general sense), orient himself on Shooter B, bring his weapon to bear, and deliver a hit all in the same amount of time that Shooter B has to pull the trigger.

Try this scenario. At the range set up two targets. One target will be a fully exposed silhouette, the other a partially exposed silhouette, say 1/2. First stand in front of the partially exposed target with your back to the target. On the signal, turn, draw your pistol and shoot the partially exposed target once. This roughly replicates the conditions the man entering the room will face. Then stand in front of the other target with your weapon on target. On the signal, engage your the fully exposed target with two shots. Which run was faster? Now repeat the engagement sequence for the fully exposed target, this time you fire one-handed. Compare the speed and quality of your hits from the first run to those of your second. Of course, this drill is flawed. Any debilitating effects of light are discounted and the requirement for your "opponent" to orient himself on the target has been crudely replicated. Still, I think it is a fair approximation. Who knows, perhaps you validate you point of view.

Your comments regarding military and law enforcement personnel are valid but only serve to reinforce my point. The reason that they need weapon mounted lights and body armor is because the "defender" has such an overwhelming advantage. They know that it is difficult to locate a person rapidly in a strange room so they use more than one person to reduce the amount of space an individual is responsible for scanning. They know they are likely to be shot, hence the body armor. They know that if they are fortunate enough to shoot first, they can not afford to miss, hence the weapon-mounted light.

In any violent confrontation, the key to success is the seizure and retention of the initiative. While the attacker will generally always begin with the initiative, when entering a room it is incredibly difficult to retain it.

HTH,

Kevin

[BluesBear]

I have debated this issue twice now with two separate gunshop sales people, to wit: lights on the end of pistols are just a bad idea. Higgins,

If you feel lights ain't your cup of tea then don't use them. It's your family and your assets on the line. The real key is in training and mindset. You must be familiar and confident in your abilities.

You do it your way and I'll do it mine. But don't try to tell me that my way is either wrong or stupid.

[shep854]

I prefer a light in my off hand and using the Harries Method of aiming light and gun. OTOH, if I needed to use my off hand, a mounted light would be helpful. One problem with the "FBI" method of holding a light to the side is difficulty in putting the beam directly onto the target. Also, experience has shown that sidescatter can light up the user enough to be targetted.

What everyone here pretty much understands and hasn't directly mentioned is that there is usually enough background light even at night to see relatively well without a flashlight. A flash should be for ID'ing the unknown.

[Higgins]

A few quick responses to everyone's comments:

Bluesbear and J. White, nowhere in any of my posts did I say using a pistol mounted light was wrong or stupid. Careful about putting words into places they aren't. I've already acknowledged that pistol mounted lights have benefits and uses. My point is simply that pistol mounted lights may have a drawback, a potentially significant one. It's a perfectly legitimate point, and at least a few other posters seem to agree. What gets me is the sales people and some posters who imply I am foolish for questioning the "pistol mounted light gospel" and speak heresy for suggesting that it is anything other than perfect and there can be no other satisfactory method.

My only point is simply that pistol mounted lights have a potentially risky drawback, one that shouldn't be ignored or glossed over. You disagree and feel comfortable standing directly behind a bright light, and feel the advantages outweigh the risks, fine. But I'm not calling anyone wrong or stupid.

Blackhawk, of course my hypothetical was ridiculous. It wasn't meant as a real situation. It was a hypothetical meant to highlight a point of discussion. Namely, a pistol mounted light tells someone exactly where you stand, a light held to the side doesn't. Yes, you set out the more realistic and likely scenario, but how does it speak to my point? Also, your shooting range drill ignores my point that being in a safe room would undoubtedly give you the opportunity to brace, rest, steady the pistol on something. You wouldn't be spinning and firing free hand as in your scenario.

As for the debilitating effects of a light, I don't disagree. But nowhere did I advocate not using a light. My only point is where it is held - on the end of the pistol or out to the side in a hand. Either way, the debilitating effect is retained with use of the light. But if I can use either method to satisfactory result, why choose a method that puts me directly behind the light? All else being equal, why choose to stand directly behind a beacon?

Blackhawk wrote: "In any violent confrontation, the key to success is the seizure and retention of the initiative." And the opponent not knowing where you are is part of achieving and retaining initiative. The other side can't accurately shoot at you if they don't know where you are. Which is why armies take such pains to hide their movements and don't send up flares every so often to announce their position to the enemy. A pistol mounted light is like a flare that gives up an advantage.

444, point well taken. Chances are once illuminated, you or I would dive for cover. Assuming you made cover and were able to return fire, where would you then return fire? Where you saw the light, I would guess. Also, perhaps "aiming" is the wrong term, more a matter of shooting in that direction after being blinded by a light.

Now maybe this is all a debate akin to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Assuming we use a light, whether on a pistol or at arms length, the distance difference is what, 3 feet? But, still, a 3 foot difference in the perps aimpoint at room-sized distance isn't insignificant to his chances of hitting you. When we're talking getting shot at, I'll take every advantage I can get.

If concern about standing directly behind the light is of no concern, then why did the technique of holding the flashlight out to the side develop at all?

[Graystar]

I think a blinding gun-mounted light and laser sight are the two best additions you can make to your home-defense gun. The light blinds and illuminates (so you don't shoot a sleep-walker) while the laser helps keep the shot on target (so you don't shoot through a wall and hit someone that's sleeping.) You also need the light to see what the laser is on, as lasers can't illuminate the target.

[Blackhawk 6]

If concern about standing directly behind the light is of no concern, then why did the technique of holding the flashlight out to the side develop at all?

While I can not claim to be an expert in the evolution of flashlight techniques, I believe the technique you champion was originally developed by the FBI in the 40's or 50's. Flashlights were not very bright and were unable to project their beam any distance of consequense. Based on the technology of the time, this was probably the way to go, but as we know, the technology has improved significantly.

I offered a drill which I thought would help you understand some of the advantages that a weapon mounted light would provide within the context you specified. Evidently my powers of written expression have failed me in this regard. I am at a loss to help you conceptualize that your concerns over a weapon-mounted lighted are, in my opinion, misguided.

It seems you have decided upon a technique which works for you, as each of us must do. In the end, the best technique will be the one you are most comfortable with. Hopefully, neither of us will be required to use either method.

[fix]

For those advocating the "on and off" method of employing the light, you should be aware that your night vision is diminished (although not as much as the opponents) once you turn it on the first time inside a house. That's why I advocate turning it on and leaving it on until the threat is removed.

[Aikibiker]

What was that safety rule about not pointing a gun at something you don't want to put a bullet into?

It is worth remembering that the flashlight is mounted on a weapon not the other way around.

At least one firearms trainer has spoken out against people with weapons mounted lights using the light on the weapon as a general flashlight. And incidentally pointing the weapon at things the operator most likely didn't want to put a hole into.

I can certainly see the utility of a weapon mounted light for dedicated offensive action, but I would also want to have a spare flashlight to provide illumination of things and people I don't want to shoot.

YMMV

[Higgins]

Blackhawk, your points were well made and well-taken. The firing drill you suggested also was well-taken and understood. I do not disagree with the points you were making about the usefulness and utility of a pistol mounted light and the incredible disadvantages to an intruder in the given situation.

My only point was that pistol mounted lights come with a potential drawback. To you and others that drawback may be de minimus and worth accepting for the advantages offered. No problem. Maybe I am making a mountain out of a mole hill and am misguided, as you suggest. it wouldn't be the first time. But I think it is equally misguided to simply dismiss as wholly irrelevant and unimportant the potential advantage (however small) a pistol mounted light gives an armed intruder of immediately identifying a home owner's location and getting a shot off at that light. Especially when that advantage can be eliminated by using a technique that doesn't place the user directly behind the light.

And like I said, maybe it's all just academic debate akin to angels on pinheads and we'll both die old men who never had to fire a weapon in defense.

[sturmruger]

This is an interesting issue. I just purchased a M6 laser light combo to mount on my HD gun. I am using a SA XD40 loaded with 11 rounds of HPs. I keep the light mounted on my gun for any bump in the night situations. IMO this combination is my best bet for home defense.

I think we can all be honest here and admit that if you are shining your light on an armed intruder he is going to have a better idea where you are. The point I would like to argue is that the probabilities of that armed intruder being able to hit you because of your weapon mounted light are very slim. The chances of you getting shot at in your own home are so minimal it is hard to even gauge. I think that in the case of an intruder in your home he is most likely going to be fleeing not sticking around to see if he can get a shot at whoever is behind the light. The majority of people that use WMLs are LEO or Military. I have never read of a specific incident that went bad because someone had a WML. Because of Murphy's Law I am sure there is a good guy somewhere that got hit because of his WML, but the chance of you being the next get to hit are too small to measure.


I guess my point is the good outweighs the bad in this situation. Being able to shoot from a good sturdy weaver stance is more important to me then worrying about getting shot behind my light.

[Jeff White]

Higgins,
I didn't put any words in your mouth. In your first post you said this:

I contend that a bright light on the end of a pistol merely gives an intruder/perp who may be armed a beacon to shoot at. I contend that the first instinct of an armed intruder who is willing to fire his weapon, when lit up with a bright light pointed in his direction will be to aim/fire at the light. If that light happens to be on the end of your pistol, you're essentially guiding the intruder/perp where to shoot.

I took this to mean that you were against the idea of a weapons mounted light. The rest of the post said this:

I know that in a home-defense situation, a homeowner has a duty to identify a target before firing, hence the need/desire for a pistol mounted light. And, yes, I realize a pistol mounted light frees up a hand that would otherwise be needed to handle a flashlight and now can be used to control the pistol. Despite the benefits, a pistol mounted light make its user a better target. Which I don't want to be for the sake of convenience. It's the same reason you don't walk patrol along a ridgeline or stand in an open doorway being lit from behind or be the third person to light a cigarette on a single match. It makes you a better target.

Someone back me up here.

I understood your post to mean that you were looking for other people to give you support in this position. All I did was present you with the other side of the coin.

The important thing here is to have a light and know how to use it. I said that in my first post in this thread. When it comes to these types of tactics, techniques and proceedures there aren't really too many right or wrong ways to do things. You're right if you have the foresight to have a good light, either handheld or weapons mounted. Your right if you train to employ it. You're wrong if you don't have a light and know how to use it. The guy on the other side of the counter at the gunshop probably isn't the person to be taking advice on an issue like this from. After all he has a vested interest here, in selling you a light.

There are disadvantages to weapons mounted lights. You do have to point the weapon at someone you might not have to shoot. But then you don't know that until you've ID'd the threat. I am aware of at least one incident during a SWAT operation where a suspect was accidentally shot because the officer was using a weapons mounted light to illuminate the suspect and had an ND. I think there was a thread on it at TFL. You have to remember that you don't have just a flashlight, you have a weapon. Every police department I know of that authorizes patrol officers to use weapons mounted lights has policy in place that forbids them to be used as flashlights. I'm aware of one dept that even issues a seperate SureFire light and provides new DL123 batteries every month so an officer has no excuse for using his weapon as a flashlight.

The key thing is to have a good light and to know how to use it. If you're not comfortable with a weapons mounted light, don't let anyone tell you you're wrong. Especially the guy at the gunshop.

Jeff

[Blackhawk 6]

Being able to shoot from a good sturdy weaver stance is more important to me then worrying about getting shot behind my light.

As it should be.

[another okie]

There is no drawback whatsoever to having a light on your weapon.
There are occasional drawbacks, in some situations, to using it.
Don't use it if the drawbacks, in those situations, exceed the benefits.
That doesn't mean you should promptly remove all weapons-mounted lights.

In other words, the arguments against the lights assume that they are always on or always used. They are an option. It is possible to have a light on your gun and not use it.

[Higgins]

I appreciate your points, J. White. Nonetheless, what you took me to mean and what I wrote are not the same thing. Just to reiterate, no where did I write that anyone was wrong or stupid for using pistol lights. I did not write that because it is not what I think, nor would I say such a thing about anyone just because my view on such a subjective matter differs. Perhaps the error was mine in poorly making my point in my first post or being a bit too loose with my language. No harm meant, and no harm done.

Now, however, lets put this dead horse to rest and stop beating on it. I was of a certain view and asked for others' opinions, and you all provided quality responses. I can see that the weight of opinion is contrary to my thinking. So, perhaps I am misguided, as Blackhawk suggests. As I said, it wouldn't be the first time, and the first step to correction is recongnizing the error of one's ways. Maybe I'll even run out and buy the latest Sig 226R and a light and sign up for a low-light class as tommy trauma suggested. In any case, this was educational.

[Stingray]

OK, after reading this post I got curious, and as curiosity gets the best of me I decided to go to the range and test the theory.

Quite simply I kept the down range lights out, had my friend mount a light on the target and he sent it down 25 feet. I kept my head down with my eyes closed, then looked up and fired at the light. I missed completely, realized I am unsafe, and put the gun down safe while waiting for my vision to clear. Those lights are BRIGHT!!!! I could not find the target, and was so stunned by the light that I had difficulty even knowing if I was firing straight.

Here is what I learned, a big ol bright light in the eyes do not give you something to shoot at, all you see is light, not a specific point of light.

The other thought I have on it is that if you are shooting without a light, at shadows...how can you tell if you hit the guy? Maybe he just dropped to the floor when you fired and he is now waiting for you to move or make a sound so he can fire back? Maybe you just wounded him and he is laying there getting ready to spray a bunch o' bullets in your direction.

I want to see what I am shooting at, I want to know if I hit it, and I want to make sure the BG is dead when I am done.

[BluesBear]

I think I was misunderstood. I didn't try to put word in anyone mouth. What I said was, "You do it your way and I'll do it mine. But don't try to tell me that my way is either wrong or stupid." My intent was for no one to tell anyone else their way was wrong or stupid.

As for me I do it differently that anyone else here has advocated. While I think that weapons monuted lights have a purpose, you will NOT find one on my handguns, EVER!

Having had to clear a house. And having actually found an intruder I am glad I didn't have a light on my weapon. I use a good combat light in my off hand. Let me tell you why.
What makes you think that an intruder will be operating alone? If you do come across an intruder and you "light him up" the rest of your house is in still in the dark. If your only light is on your handgun then if you sweep the room looking for anything else you no longer have him covered.
I prefer to keep my muzzle trained on the known threat and use my light and preipheral vison to scan for any other threat. I think that this is where a laser is an advantage. You can keep the laser trained on the known threat, and the threat will know he is covered. If you have the intruder on the floor waiting for the local constabulary to arrive you need to keep them covered. You might need the light to see what's what elsewhere in the room.

All of this "don't point your gun at anything you don't intend to destroy" is all fine and good 99% of the time. But there are times when it just can't be helped. Deal with it. We're not talking about checking out the new super-dooper poly blaster at the local gun shop.
When clearing a house you point your weapon where you are looking. You do this because you need to be able to engage any threat immediately. This, friends and neignbors is where miliseconds really DO matter. You sweep the room with your weqpon because you are WILLING to destroy anything that may try to destroy you. If the person lurking in the shadows of the living room turns out to be one of your children trying to smuggle your latest copy of Shotgun News into their room for a little late night drooling then you disengage and point the weapon somewhere else! IMMEDIATELY. (Your family should know better than to pad around the house in the dark anyway.)
But if that lurker turns out to be a local druggie looking to steal your daughter and rape your baseball card collection then you need to have control of the situation. Right there and then!

Now those of you who use a shotgun for home defense don't have an extra hand for an off weapon light. Y'all will have to figure out what's right for you.

The bottom line is that we all need to figure out what is right for our needs. There is no on cure fits all. Find out what suits you and learn it. Practice it. Live it.

[Rob62]

Put me down on the side of lights on guns are good. I believe the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

Everything else has been pretty much said above.

Rob

[BWC]

There have been times at night when I have needed a light (and a gun too), and couldn't find the "bedside flashlight" (someone moved it, I used it some other time, etc....). But since my weapon is secured, I always know where it is. Having the light attached to it just simplifies things......

[SapperLeader]

I love weapon mounted lights on long guns, as Im not coordianted enough to manipulate a unatached light. I like the idea of a handgun mounted light particulary for a bedside gun. A handgun with nightsights and a flashlight attached, very well might be the perfect grab and go tool for when Im asleep in bed with the shotgun over in the closet. When I say perfect, I mean for me, not everyone :). For ccw, I definitly prefer a seperate light to my handgun for various reasons. So while i think it can be debated on the location of the light, having a light is a must for me, as I never intend to be aiming at someone I know.

[zaijian]

This is an interesting issue. I just purchased a M6 laser light combo to mount on my HD gun. I am using a SA XD40 loaded with 11 rounds of HPs. I keep the light mounted on my gun for any bump in the night situations. IMO this combination is my best bet for home defense.

Dang Sturmruger, did you break into my house and steal my gun bag?? :)
I've also got an XD40 Tactical w/ M6.

Here's an interesting exercise I did to test the viability of the WML - I had my roommate start off on one end of the house, and me in the other. Lights at normal sleeping levels - that is, maybe a single hall light on. I had him use my XD40 (unloaded, of course) with the M6 on it. As soon as he spotted me, I whipped out my index and thumb in the classic pseudo gun shape (I only own one gun :)) and aimed at where I thought he was.

The results were pretty interesting. I was pretty blinded and disoriented from that light (It's freaking bright) and my initial point of aim was several feet away from where he actually was. With a light that bright, it's really hard to tell where exactly it's coming from - all you can tell at that point is a general direction. Meanwhile, he had me firmly in his sights.

Distance plays a pretty great role in this scenario, tho - this was from about 15-20 feet away, and I couldn't see squat. I imagine that if the distances were more like 50+ feet away, the effect of the light would not be so intense, and allow the BG to make a more accurate shot.

Another thing to consider is if the BG has any warning at all - if it's a burglary-type mission, they're probably hoping for no confrontations at all, which means shining a light on them would cause them a slight heart attack, giving the defender a few extra seconds to deal with the issue. But, seeing as how IANA burglar, this is all conjecture on my part :)

[Oboeman]

While there has been some pretty interesting discussion here, apparently this question has plagued law enforcement as well. A recent gun mag reported on a test done by a police department using no light, with the gun mounted light constantly on, and using a technique whereby persons with M6-type lights flashed the high intensity light on and off while moving. I cannot recall all of the parameters of the test (which was conducted in the basement of a church with lots of furniture, etc.), but the technique using flashes of light at the subject while continuing to move was reported by far the most effective technique for both blinding the other side, and avoiding the aim of the "bad guys". No light came in third as I recall. Every circumstance is different, so this may not work in some situations.

[john l]

If you have a weapon mounted light, and you are in your own home, then you don't necessarily have to use your light. But it is there if you need it.
As far as the barrel pointing the same way as the flashlight, keep your finger off the trigger. M3s are nice because you can activate the momentary switch with your trigger finger. If it's there, it can't be on the trigger, too.
Then there is the arguement that a separate flashlight is better because it is not aiming the same place as your weapon. Hmmm. Sounds like hooey to me. If you got up at 3 am to noises that justify you getting your gun and light, I doubt you would keep your pistol pointing downward while your flashlight is pointing straight ahead. Possible, but unlikely.
In the daytime, flash a Surefire in your eyes, I guarantee that you won't be reading fine print for a while, so I agree with the thoughts about the flashlight itself being a weapon.
A gunfight is a crapshoot anyway, so it is up to us to pick the weapon system that will give us an advantage. Night goggles anyone?
Lastly, those of you who have actually shot at night/lowlight know that if you are holding a flashlight in one hand and shooting a pistol in the other, it is really just a strong-hand excercise, and then when you need your free hand to do something else, guess what? your other hand is full. What do you do, put it down? Yeah, you can, but why have one then?
The most advanced method is the weapon mounted light, use it when needed, keep your finger off the trigger, and you can shoot two handed when and if you need to.
john l.

[XavierBreath]

I have an acquaintance who shot and killed his teenage daughter in his own dark living room a few years back. He shot her once through the chest with a .357 magnum, and she died in his arms before EMS could arrive. You can say he was stupid for shooting at a target in the dark. He would agree with you. You could say his daughter was stupid for entering his house without turning on the lights. If she could, she would probably agree.

No matter what spin you put on the shooting, he shot before he had identified his target. His aim was excellent. His S&W revolver worked as advertised. The one non debatable fact is the apple of his eye is dead by his own hand, and he will never be the same.

I tell of this not to belittle this man, but to illustrate why I have a light on both my house pistol and my home defense shotgun. Rule #2 is to never point your weapon at something you do not wish to destroy. How can you possibly know if you want to destroy it or not if it is in the dark? A person always has the option of lying in wait and ambushing a threat instead of doing a house clearing. A person also has the option of using a light or not using a light if he has one. If you do not have a light, you too, may end up shooting in the dark.

Imagine burying your child because you made a single mistake when you were scared out of your wits. My advice is to buy a light. Learn to use it effectively. Know the areas of your home where you can observe and set up an ambush. Know how to clear your house safely and effectively if necessary. Most of all, though, continue to follow the four rules, even in a home defense situation. Your children's lives may depend on it.

[dustind]

What about just turning the house lights on? I guess this would work better if you could turn the lights by the intruder on, but leave the ones by yourself off. You could also have a light located so that it shines in the other person's eyes, and not yours.

[doofus]

Aside from the primary benefit of helping to identify your target, tac-lights provide a tactical advantage, in that they ruin the night vision of your attacker in low-light situations. Looking into a (presumably) bright light actually helps to conceal your body.

This leaves only the light itself to aim at, which of course, the attacker has to look directly into in order to aim at it. All-in-all, if you're talking about close proximity, your chances of being hit aren't significantly increased.