narrowing the choices...


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cameramonkey
May 14, 2004, 01:42 PM
This is my first post here. First and foremost, I'd like to thank all the members for their informative posts. I have been searching the boards for the past 2 months and reading up on many topics. It has been a great and enjoyable research tool. After all of my lurking, I've finally decided to join the ranks and post a question.

I've decided to purchase a semi auto handgun for home defense. I've picked it over a shotgun and a revolver for multiple reasons:

1) I live in the Maryland D.C. suburbs and the only places to go shooting are a few local ranges. They're aren't too many places to shoot shotguns and getting lots of practice time at the range is important.
2) I'd like to try and find a place to shoot IDPA to improve my skills.
3) I've always wanted one.
4) Revolvers just don't give me the "warm fuzzies" when I shoot them. They're cool; I just personally like shooting semi autos better. This is just a personal preference, so please don't take this as a flame. It's probably due to my "newbieness."

After doing all of my research on message boards, I've gone to some local ranges, took some lessons, and rented various types of guns in different calibers. Getting to the point, I fell in love with the .45 acp and the 9mm. I suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome and the .40 s&w and the .357 sig really aggravated my condition for some reason. After about 50 rounds, my wrist was feeling it. But I was easily able to shoot the 9mm and the .45 for 150+ rounds w/o a problem. So caliber requirement for this semi auto is either .45 or 9mm (weird huh?? Since these 2 seem to be constantly contested by many loyal followers here).

I rented and tried almost everything I could get my hands on. You name it: Sigs, HK's, glocks, 1911's, XD's, etc. But here's the kicker. Living here behind Maryland's Iron Curtain, you can only purchase a newly manufactured handgun that has an internal lock installed at the factory unless it was manufactured before 01/01/02. It may be 01/01/01??). So for a new gun, I can only buy the following: glock, taurus, HK, Springfield 1911, S&W. Talk about limitations. I need to move to Virginia. There are some Sigs (mostly refurbished) and a few CZ's, but most everything else is sparse.

So based on my range time and message board lurking/research, I have decided on the following as options:

1. Glock 17 or 19. It shot well for me and handled the recoil nicely. I think the low bore axis really helped. It was as accurate as I could shoot it, and the controversial grip angle didn't bother me at all. Didn't fail at all w/ all types of ammo that I tried. My only concern is that it lacks a "true" safety. This may be a training issue, but it seems like if I was to keep one on my nightstand and went to pick the gun up after being woken up abruptly by an intruder and accidentally grabbed the gun and squeezed the trigger, there would be no real resistance from causing an AD. I know you're supposed to keep your finger off of the trigger until ready to shoot, but people do strange things when woken abruptly. A gun w/ a safety or a DA pull may offer more "preventives" against this kind of accident from happening.

2. HK USP .45 - This gun was awesome. I think the buffer system really made it comfortable to shoot. The muzzle flip was a little more than the Glock 21 (again I think a bore axis issue), But it was more accurate that the Glock 21 that I tried (for me at least). I also like the fact that it holds 10 rounds in the magazine. I like the safety decock feature also. The only con is the High price. It costs 825 here. The glocks are 550. And money is tight right now.

3. Sig 220, 226, 229 - Hands down the sigs fit my hand better than anything else. They shot well for me and were very accurate. They seemed to have more recoil than all of the other guns (bore axis? aluminum frame?). The decoker seemed to be well placed for my hands. I also like the fact that Sig claims this gun has a 2nd strike capability (the striker fired weapons do not). I don't know if this really makes a difference, but I'll mention it nonetheless. Here again, cost is the issue. Refurbished guns start at 800 dollars. YUP, 800 dollars. Maryland gun laws drive the prices wayyyyyy up.

4. Springfield 1911 - It was fun to shoot this piece of history. I can see why people like them. The one I shot had one FTE. I cleared it, and it kept on going. My only concern about the 1911 is all the debate about the MIM stuff and the need to possibly have to get the gun worked on to be a reliable defense gun (hollow point feeding). I'd really like the gun ready to go out of the box. Again this is a cost issue for a gunsmith to have to look at and tune the gun.

5. CZ-75bd - I shot a friend's. It felt really, really nice. Probably second to the Sigs. It was reliable w/ FMJ ammo. The problem is that his has been really finicky about hollow point ammo. Also, the recent stories of CZ's customer service kinda turn me off.

6. Springfield XD - Very cool gun (I'd love to have one of all the above - who wouldn't?). The problem is, I can't find one anywhere because of the gun laws.

What I'm asking for is some helpful advice to help me narrow down my choices. I'm really kinda' leaning towards one of the Sigs, HK's, or glocks since they seem to have less out of the box issues. If the XD was available, it'd be on the list too :( . I'll probably wait to purchase a 1911 in a FREE state (I really like the STI from what I have read). But for now I have to do what common sense and finances dictate and pick the one semi auto that will be great for personal/home defense.

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McNutt
May 14, 2004, 01:51 PM
I have a 1911 and a CZ-75B. Both are great and you will love them. Personally I'd get a .45 for defense, so I'd be leaning towards the SA 1911. That would be my first choice. The MIM parts on the SA aren't an issue for me. All of the guns you've mentioned are very good. I don't think you'll be upset with any. I don't particularly like polymer guns, so I rule them out (personal preference only). Just shoot as much as you want and decide which one gives you the best feeling. But if you just need a deciding factor, I'd go with a .45.

MikeJ
May 14, 2004, 02:05 PM
Let me be the first to welcome you to the finest firearms board in the universe, THR. You have certainly come to the right place for knowledge, advice and civility. As to your choices, they are all very good ones, with my favorites being the Glock 19 and Sig 229. I have the Glock 23 (40 S&W) and a Sig 229, also in .40. I think the Sig 229 is one of the finest handguns ever made in terms of fit and function, very subjective opinion of course. I never cared for the USP, but once again that is only my opinion, they are very fine guns in terms of quality. The issue you have with the Glock not having a safety is a legitimate one but I always keep my 23 in a holster, thereby eliminating the problem of grabbing for it and having an AD. Best of luck and I have a sneeking feeling you will get a just a few more responses.;) Mike

Chris Rhines
May 14, 2004, 02:16 PM
Man, there's just a panopoly of Maryland shooters here lately. What's up with that?

First, welcome to THR!

I've had some trigger time with each of the guns on your list. My favorites are the CZ75 and the Springfield 1911. Both are easy to shoot, both have potentially excellent single-action triggers. I've had some reliability issues with one of my CZs, all related to a worn extractor. Replaced the extractor, problems went away. I've never had a problem feeding HP ammo with my CZs.

Glocks I can't warm up to - they don't fit me right. If they did, I'd have no qualms at all about using one as a defensive gun. Sigs are the same. I can't shoot them for beans, but they're first-rate handguns.

The HK USP is a very good gun, but the trigger ain't great and it always struck be as a bit top heavy. As you may be able to tell, I consider the "feel" of a gun to be very important.

The Springfield XD40 - I put a few rounds through one belonging to a friend. I was all set not to like it, but ended up impressed. Very good trigger for a striker-fired gun. Good handling, no malfunctions. I would buy an XD40 over a Glock.

Your final decision is going to be grounded in a lot of personal preference, so it really doesn't matter which gun you buy as what you do once you have it. You mentioned taking lessons - excellent! There are some very good gun schools in the DC area. Avail yourself of training and you'll be far better off than if you just plink at the range. You also mentioned IDPA, which is a very good idea. There are many good IDPA, IPSC, and 3gun clubs around. Practical shooting competition is a great way to practice fast, accurate shooting under stress.

Anyhow, good luck, and good shooting.

- Chris

ruger357
May 14, 2004, 02:25 PM
SA1911.

Top_Notch
May 14, 2004, 02:33 PM
It's great that you did your homework. The fact that you have done your homework and still can't decide means that whatever you choose, you'll have made the right choice. From the list of firearms, I don't see a rotten apple in the bunch.

One thing not always mentioned is that the purchase is one thing, but feeding is another. I think 9mm makes a great first firearm caliber because the cost of target rounds is inexpensive (Read: WWB at $11/100) but for self-defense there are a plethora of hotter loads at decent prices.

I found that 45, since I don't reload, is expensive for me to shoot, and hence I don't shoot it as much as my nine. I now plan to add a 22 rimfire, mainly because I love target shooting and wish to extend my range sessions and not deplete my pocketbook. Plus, variety is the spice of life.

Of your list, I'd be partial to the Glock 19 and/or the S/A 45 1911. Why? Because I've had a great experience with mine, and I would hope your experience would be the same. However, that is not to say you couldn't have great experiences with another brand. My first firearm was my Glock 19.

cameramonkey
May 14, 2004, 04:30 PM
Thanks so far for all the replies. I think for now I'm going to wait on the 1911 :( . But I will definitely get one one day!! So far The running is still between the glocks, sigs, HK, and SA XD. Any fellow Marylanders know where I can find an XD? Right now I think the only hope I have for finding one is used, and that's not so likely to happen. But I'll keep lookin'. Maybe we'll get lucky here and Springfield will put their internal locks in the XD (to the chagrin of the rest of the free world...please don't flame me for even suggesting it :uhoh: ).

sundance43.5
May 14, 2004, 05:42 PM
I think your only option is to get one of the HS2000's. This is exactly the same gun as the XD, just before Springfield started importing them.

Chris

phorvick
May 14, 2004, 06:05 PM
If it is for home and range (and not to carry), the Glock 17 is my choice. You mentioned that one concern you had is that you may inadvertantly pull the trigger in a stress situation; keep in mind that in the same stress situation it is equally as likely that you will forget to release the safety on a different gun.

It all comes down to training and learning your weapon.

cameramonkey
May 14, 2004, 11:18 PM
In reply to what phorvick said: That's a good point about the safety if the intruder busts into a room and suprises while sleeping. I just tend to be very groggy when I wake up and not clear thinking. If I go the glock route, I'll just have to develop very good gun habits. Think Finger off the trigger until I'm ready to shoot.

Regarding the HS2000, those are almost as scarce around here as Conservatives are in the State of Maryland. But if I saw one, I'd be sure to try and snag it.

Flashpoint
May 15, 2004, 11:13 AM
Welcome

I would say Sig 229, if it shoots as easy than my p239 then you could shoot it all day. Mine is very accurate and reliable.

cameramonkey
May 15, 2004, 04:52 PM
Alright. It look like the final contestants are the glock 17/19, The HK USP, And a Sig 220, 226, or 229 (228 if I can find one). The only reason the Springfield XD didn't make the cut is because they are just not available in MD anymore :( . I'm somewhat leaning more towards a full size gun. I know that I can get a Sig 220 or 226, G17, or HK USP no problem. Any more advice????

Al Thompson
May 15, 2004, 04:53 PM
CM, you really have to develpe that safety mindset regardless of the firearm. :) When you find yourself with a straight finger when you pick up a drill, you are about there as far as hardwireing goes. :D

IMHO, the Springfield 1911 in 9mm deserves a very hard look. I recently fired a Para in 9mm and the combination of 9mm and the 1911 is extremely nice. Good power and low recoil !! If Springfield doesn't chamber 9mm (not up on Springers), look for others. :)

1911Tuner
May 15, 2004, 06:28 PM
OOPS! Sorry Al. I hit EDIT instead of REPLY.:rolleyes:

You said:

If Springfield doesn't chamber 9mm (not up on Springers), look for others.

Springfield 1911s in 9mm are available. A friend of mine has two, and loves'em.

Luck!

Tuner ...(who is such a bad marksman that he can't even hit a button with a
mouse.)

Clean97GTI
May 15, 2004, 11:26 PM
I'm surprised that you found the USP in .40 to be that bad on recoil. If I could afford the price tag on a USPc in .40 or .357SIG, I'd pick it up tomorrow.

I'm going to vote for either the USP or the Glock.
I don't care for the grip of a Glock (just not comfortable for my hand) but they are undeniably good guns. In the 9mm class, the G19 is probably one of the most versatile handguns on earth. Good capacity (after the ban dies) and light weight and decent accuracy make for a good carry weapon. The gun is still big enough to be comfortable when defending your home. They seem to feed all the defensive ammo out there with no problem.

The USP, ahh, what a sweet gun. I have fired several models and actually like the compact in .40 the most. In fact, my most accurate grouping ever came from a USPc in .40. The full size models are very nice too and even the big .45 seems to be tamed by the recoil reduction system. They are far more comfortable in my hand and with a rail, you can attach a light for more versatility.

The CZ75 is nice, but only if you can find one. If they are legal in your state, you can probably order one online and set up an FFL x-fer.

Oh, for my last bit, I'm gonna dump a little personal bias and suggest the FN Forty-Nine. Mine is chambered in .40 (only cause they didn't have a 9mm on hand) and it is the most comfortable gun I own. The recoil aint bad (should be better with 9mm) and the balance seems very good. Trigger pull is about 8 or 9 pounds but does smooth with use. The feature that sold me was the repeatable secure striker. The striker and trigger are totally at rest until you start to pull. After the DAO shot, the entire mechanism returns to full rest, rendering the pistol totally safe. Just a little personal bias showing ;)

Feanaro
May 15, 2004, 11:34 PM
I know that I can get a Sig 220 or 226, G17, or HK USP no problem. Any more advice????

This isn't really something you can get other people to pick for you. You've tried everything you mentioned here, pick from that. Cost might be an issue with the USP/Sigs(The ones you seemed to like the most) but an expensive handgun that fits great is better than an inexpensive handgun that doesn't.

The Sig might be easier to CC but you can conceal a USP depending on your body type and the clothes you wear. Depends on how much you are willing to change.

cameramonkey
May 16, 2004, 01:24 AM
Feanaro said: "This isn't really something you can get other people to pick for you. You've tried everything you mentioned here, pick from that."

I agree totally. I'm just trying to make the best investment since I probably wont be able to afford another gun for some time. I'm just looking for owner input that will help me purchase a gun that will serve the role of protection, reliability, that is enjoyable to shoot, and good for IDPA. I think all of these guns meet that need. Just looking for user opinions. Thanks for the response. I 'm also a big believer in the "You get what you pay for" theory. Although it is hard for me to figure out why the HK costs so much more than the glock, both being polymer and all. I guess your paying for the "elite commando" factor of the HK or something.... the gunstore gucci tag. Thanks as always.

arinvolvo
May 16, 2004, 03:54 AM
personally, something simple...glock or sig...the xd is also a fine choice.

and get 9mm...you will shoot it more.

take a look at the Steyr M9 just for fun. IMHO superior quality to the glock, at half the price.

Ala Dan
May 16, 2004, 04:21 AM
Greeting's All-

cameramonkey my friend, looks like you answered
your own question! I agree $800 bucks for a refurb SIG
is expensive; but if the SIG Classic P-series pistols fit
your hand; that is what I would get. The bottom line
would be to: SAVE $$$$, and more $$$$ to finally you
get enough in the piggy bank to get the SIG. I prefer
either the .45 cal P220A; or the 9m/m P228, as both
have the "American" style grip angle. I find the
P225 and P226 with the "European" grip angle
to be too awkward for me. And the P229 seems a
bit "top heavy" when compared to the perfectly
balanced P228! :uhoh: :cool: :D

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan. N.R.A. Life Member

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