[nathan]

Watching today's 60 minutes on CBS, North Korea stands as the 5 th largest army. They have devoted the last 50 years in arming themselves. They showed their army in marching formation with AK plus grenade launchers. Boy, these guys are mean looking.
The bad thing is the SOuth Koreans esp the new leadership wants us out of there. Lots of demos against USA . Whats happening to these young folks? Did n't they know we save their pitiful asses many years ago? Man it looks like we be seeing a united Korea inthe future. Hope it won't be bloody.

[Uncle Ethan]

Apparently S. Korea would rather captulate than face nukes- it's their country, I think we should leave and let them settle it without anymore American blood shed.

[Stinger]

I watched the same show, they are the 3rd largest army. They also have the largest numbers of special forces in the world, but our boys are much better trained and equipped.

More men = more body bags if they want to tangle with us.

What amazed me about that show was the interviews with the South Korean youth. They talked about how they didn't want the US there and were much more afraid of us than the Commie NKoreans. It sickens me because the only reason that they have the right to say such things is because WE gave it to them. But it also makes me proud that we gave them that right.

If we left, the North would roll over the south like a steamroller.

Stinger

[CWL]

If we abandoned S. Korea, they'd be forced to develop their own nukes, as would Japan, followed by Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand. Australia and New Zealand would have to do so just to keep up. -This is why the USA is there in the first place, so the world doesn't go (any more) nuts.

btw, S. Korea just had a "Pro-America" rally today. -So not everyone hates Americans.

The antis in S. Korea are largely fomented by N. Korean intelligence. N. Korea also used to be (maybe still is) the largest counterfeiter of US currency. N. Korea happens to be one principle reason why USA went the way of the 'big head' greenbacks we have now adopted.

[Dannyboy]

If we left, the North would roll over the south like a steamroller.

You don't think 2ID is enough to keep them from doing it anyway, do you? 2ID is really just a speedbump. There are supposedly close to 2000 artillery pieces within range of every 2ID post. It would most likely be the same as the first time. We'd be all the way down by Pusan before we got enough troops in country to do anything.

[JimP]

Hey, Easy on 2ID. I'm sitting at Red Cloud and don't have enough time to hit the bunker when stuff hits. Hope they think we are "unimportant" and concentrate their fire on Seoul.

5 months left. :uhoh:

[Dannyboy]

Hey, Jim, I was at Stanley myself. I know how you feel. As long as they have MLRS at Stanley, Uijongbu is toast. Look at the bright side, though. At least you have a bunker.

[ruger357]

They don't pay you guys enough for being there.

[Delmar]

Was there in 73 Camp Casey and 75-76 when they moved us to Uijongbu to take over the old MASH compound. Unless the ROK army has been severely wussified since I left, the NK's are going to have a very bad time getting anywhere in that country-at least those who survive the initial artillery blast and aircraft. The ROK's can take care of themselves without our help. If need be, the pregnant strawberry (25th ID) is hopefully still in Hawaii and they could reinforce if necessary.

[Powderman]

Talk about speed bumps............

Anybody remember GP 115 and 116?

(alumnus, B Co, 1/31st IN (M) [Bearcats]

78-79

alumnus, C Btry, 2/71st ADA (IHAWK)

80-81

[nathan]

Wow, 2000 artillery guns aim on one post. The NK must have built them for so long they got so much of them. Oh well they are known to be exporters and thats the only thing they do best.
I'm thinking the Soviets must have given them lots of machinery back in Stalins time. Curious to know how well their AK version is compared to Russian and Chinese.
HOw about the Chinese helping them out again when a war breaks out. I hope they don't do the same thing or we see a bigger conflict in the Region. WHAt so you think China will do? They are our partners now in trade. THey don't wanna risk that billions the get from us.

[Bahadur]

I watched the same show, they are the 3rd largest army.Which is completely meaningless.
They also have the largest numbers of special forces in the world, but our boys are much better trained and equipped.I am not going to get into whose Kung Fu is better, but the single element of the DPRK military force that is formidable is its special operations force. It is quite well-trained and fairly well-atuned to the Korean environment.
What amazed me about that show was the interviews with the South Korean youth. They talked about how they didn't want the US there and were much more afraid of us than the Commie NKoreans.Admittedly, younger South Koreans tend to be less appreciative of the US than older ones, but one must remember that "anti-Americanism" is quite popular to bored, prosperous college children in South Korea, as it is in our own college campuses.

It used to be that South Korean students demonstrated against the military government there, but now that Korea has more than a semblance of "democracy," they found something more fashionable to demonstrate against.
It sickens me because the only reason that they have the right to say such things is because WE gave it to them. But it also makes me proud that we gave them that right.Well, while the ingratitude bothers me, let's not forget that we were there for OUR interests, not theirs. Furthermore, South Koreans must be given a lot of credit for their hardwork and sacrifices for both their newfound prosperity AND voice in their governance (because, to be quite honest, we supported their military dictatorships when they suited our interests).
If we left, the North would roll over the south like a steamroller.If this were the 1960s or even the 1970s, I may agree with you. But in 2003, South Korea outspends the North in defense by a considerable margin. South Koreans are pretty self-reliant on most defensive measures, with the possible exception of satellite and other recon means. Not surprisingly, one of the high priority goals for the ROK military planners is the acquisition of independent means of advanced information gathering, including satellite capability. They will have it sooner rather than later.

BTW, South Korea will soon have a fleet of F-15's (F-15K) to complement their F-16's. That will put them at a different league than the North (whose main fighter is still an export variant of the MiG-21, despite a handful of export MiG-29 variants that defend Pyongyang). Was it Israel's Ytzhak Shamir who said that a country with an F-15 is in a different league than one that does not? Or was he talking about a AWACS aircraft? South Korea is going to have those very soon, too.

Either way, ROK is not the rickety thing that the North Koreans steamrolled over in 1950.
If we abandoned S. Korea, they'd be forced to develop their own nukes, as would Japan, followed by Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand. Australia and New Zealand would have to do so just to keep up. -This is why the USA is there in the first place, so the world doesn't go (any more) nuts.There is some food for thought there. ROK refrains from developing nukes and ballistic missiles because of its defense relationship with us. If the latter is gone...
btw, S. Korea just had a "Pro-America" rally today. -So not everyone hates Americans.A bunch of older folks, many of them former veterans of the Korean War and Vietnam War (ROK had a total of about 300,000 men fighting for the US/ARVN in Vietnam, and maintained a force of about 40,000 men, whose AOR was often considered to be the most safe by many of our guys; and conversely the most dangerous by the NVA/VC).
The antis in S. Korea are largely fomented by N. Korean intelligence.Some of it is. Some of it isn't. The newly elected president is from the current ruling party (left-leaning). It was being beaten up badly by the more conservative (pro-American, too) candidate for the inefficacy of the "Sunshine Policy." This policy is much ballyhooed by the lefties in the US, but was quite unpopular in ROK.

Then this accident with the school girls happened, and when the expression of "regret" from President Bush was not forthcoming (he relayed this regret through the US ambassador there), the ruling government seized on the "opportunity" to foment anti-Americanism in order to boost the chances of its candidate, who was identified with much more anti-American stance. It worked too. The polls shifted and the ruling party candidate won... by the barest of the margin.

[Dannyboy]

Wow, 2000 artillery guns aim on one post.

Not exactly 1 post. Although, most of it is probably aimed at 2 posts in particular, Stanley and Casey.

I watched the same show, they are the 3rd largest army.
Which is completely meaningless.

I'd have to disagree with that. We're not talking about Iraq. If the NK's decided to go south the best chance for the ROK's and 2ID is going to be the bridges and rock drops they have set up. Of course, that's if they even have a chance to blow them. Like you said, the NK SF guys are pretty good and God only knows how many are already in the ROK.

Then again, if our guys have time to get out of the motorpools it would be totally different.

[Bahadur]

I'd have to disagree with that. We're not talking about Iraq.Where is the disagreement? I agree that we are not talking about Iraq.
If the NK's decided to go south the best chance for the ROK's and 2ID is going to be the bridges and rock drops they have set up.Indeed. That is why the North has tons of river-crossing equipment and a massive tunnel digging operation.
Of course, that's if they even have a chance to blow them.Perhaps, perhaps not. Still, their conventional forces, except for the arty, are not a serious threat. And as I stated earlier, the arty threat is a one-shot affair for the North.
Like you said, the NK SF guys are pretty good and God only knows how many are already in the ROK.They are probably not in ROK in large numbers (we aren't talking about sleeper spies here). They might be pretty effective in preventing ROK reserve mobilization however. Then again, I tend to view ROK reserve units (or North's reserve units for that matter) in less than positive light in the context of modern warfare.
Then again, if our guys have time to get out of the motorpools it would be totally different.We win either way. The question is, how much damage will Seoul take?

[Stinger]

We win either way. The question is, how much damage will Seoul take?

I think most people would agree with that.

But how is John Q. Public going to feel when GI JOE's start coming back in body bags?

Stinger

[WilderBill]

Given the situation, I think that the US has something up it's sleeve in that area. I doubt that we'd just sit back and wait and talk of diplomacy without havng some force in the region.
My guess is that since you don't see carriers off the Korean coast, there must be some missle carrying subs there. Sometimes what you don't see is more important.

[fallingblock]

****************************************************"If we abandoned S. Korea, they'd be forced to develop their own nukes, as would Japan, followed by Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand. Australia and New Zealand would have to do so just to keep up. -This is why the USA is there in the first place, so the world doesn't go (any more) nuts."
****************************************************
There would be a greater stimulus for nuclear proliferation in the region than ever before. Certainly Japan & Taiwan would be feeling the need, and even the Indonesians could probably scare up a few nukes, as well as Malaysia and Thailand.:what:

But... New Zealand:eek:

They just got rid of their tactical airforce:rolleyes:

What about their "no nuclear" policy?:scrutiny:

No, the best the kiwis could likely manage is a "haka" on the beach....:D

[Lennyjoe]

JimP, I know how your feeling. Even though Im a little farther south than you I think our base will be a primary target. They cant win without neutralizing our airpower so I thing we might catch one of them their nukes or fugas.

Maybe Kim whats his nuts will see the light and stand down. If not, I hope we hit him where it hurts and hard too.

4 more months to go for me!

[Dannyboy]

Where is the disagreement? I agree that we are not talking about Iraq.

Funny. The disagreement is that while Iraq has one of the largest armies, they were a joke. NK would not be a pushover like Iraq was.

Still, their conventional forces, except for the arty, are not a serious threat. And as I stated earlier, the arty threat is a one-shot affair for the North.

Uh, yeah, sure. If you say so.

[Bahadur]

Dannyboy:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where is the disagreement? I agree that we are not talking about Iraq.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Funny. The disagreement is that while Iraq has one of the largest armies, they were a joke. NK would not be a pushover like Iraq was.If you studied Clausewitz, you'd realize that there is a great deal of uncertainty in war. That goes for both North Korea AND Iraq.

I put no stock in "the world's largest armies list," because they are meaningless. ROK, for example, can supposedly mobilize some 6-7 million reservists. Big whoop if this were 1914. In the era of satellite communications, GPS-guided weapons and computerized C4I, a minimally trained rifleman is less than useless in high intensity conventional warfare. As Liddell Hart put it once, "mass serves to confuse."

I agree wholeheartedly that North Korean military is more formidable than the Iraqi force in the aftermath of Desert Storm. But that's like saying that a musket is more formidable than an ancient matchlock. They both pale in comparison to a modern rifle (not to mention "stealthy" aircraft with guided munition).

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Still, their conventional forces, except for the arty, are not a serious threat. And as I stated earlier, the arty threat is a one-shot affair for the North.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Uh, yeah, sure. If you say so.I spent a significant part of my life analyzing the military capabilities of DPRK. I'd be happy to engage in an extended discussion about our respective knowledge of the KPA.

Let me give a crude sense of scale. The CIA publicly estimates the North Korean defense budget at about $5 billion (FY2001). That's about a third of DPRK GDP. South Korea spends about $13 billion (FY2001). That's under 3% of their GDP.

The US? It spent about $280 billion in 1999 (a bit over 3% of the GDP). It is considerably more now. It's not even a comparison.

Operationally, any significant size mechanized force operating in constrained mountain terrain (that channel movements into a handful of valleys and passes) cannot sustain itself very long without air superiority. North Korea operates MiG-21 as its main fighter aircraft. It is unlikely to attain air superiority against South Korean F-16 and F-4 aircraft, let alone the soon to be F-15K. And I haven't even started discussing the level of training among the North Korean air crews.

To be accurate, the North does maintain a small number of export variant MiG-29 aicraft, but they are assigned to air defense role over Pyongyang.