[Snowdog]

Here's an unusual question: What handgun was typically carried in the early to mid 80's? Undeniably, today's agencies have taken a liking to Glocks and Sigs (who I'm sure have a lion's share of the market).

However, what would the preferred handgun be 20 years ago today? A revolver of some kind? A first or second generation S&W auto? A 70s series 1911?

Does anyone know what the popular duty handguns were 20 years ago?

Also, memory fails me... was Hydrashok born by 84 or 85? Would you find an officer of some department toting a 1911 stoked with 230gr Federal Hydrashoks, or maybe 200gr flying ashtrays?

I just got bit by nostalgia I guess. I just got watching a couple back to back 80's movies (Goonies and Back to the Future) and I'm trying to remember what was "hot" back then.

[gggman]

I would be willing to bet the most popular handgun in LE 20 years ago was a 4" model 19. I don't know what ammo was used in them.

[dfariswheel]

In the Mid-West, the ONLY gun you ever saw outside, of a few big cities, was the S&W Model 66 Combat Magnum.

In fact, in the 70's through the late 80's when the big move to auto's occurred, the S&W Model 66 had an even bigger police market share than the Glock does today.

[El Tejon]

Growing up in the mid-80s IPD (Indianapolis Police Department) carried S&W M66s. Federal 125 JHPs, did carry 158 SPs before that.

[jc2]

First, four inch Model 66--as often as not lloaded with .38 Special 158-grain +P SWCHPs. Second four inch Model 66 (or 686) loaded with .357 Magnum 125-grain SJHPs.

[agtman]

In the early 1980s (i.e., 80-83), the typical street-cop duty piece was a 4" revolver - not an autoloader. Typically, a S&W model 13 or 65, or 66. However, authorized or issued calibers varied; hence, so did the revolvers used. For example, for many years a local Dept near me issued the 4" S&W 25 in .45 Long Colt.

A noticable transition to autoloaders at the state and local level began about 1984 and continued through the mid 90s. The dominate auto caliber earlier on was the 9mm, with significant pockets of 45acp users.

In 1987, Colt's Delta Elite brought the 10mm AUTO out of limbo (after the Bren Ten's maker, Dornaus & Dixon, tanked), and other gun-makers started building pistols chambered for this cartridge. Interest in the 10mm as an alternative defensive round surged, and some Depts/Agencies authorized its use.

In the late 1980s, S&W brought out its large-framed 3rd Generation pistols in 45acp & 10mm. Colt came out with its Double Eagles in the same calibers. Note the initial trend: big stainless steel autoloaders for LE. The late 80s saw the Glock invasion of high-capacity-married-to-light-weight-polymer. Glock's guns were capable of being chambered in any caliber you wanted, and these factors more than any others signalled the eventually demise of heavy, full-size all-steel pistols among a majority of LE users.

Again, the mid-to-late 80s saw LE adopting autoloaders - primarily DA/SA guns, although some depts did allow SA 1911 pistols. And in the very late 80s Glock was starting to make in-roads.

The 10mm took off in 1989-90 when the FBI formally adopted it and the "Commander"-size S&W 1076. Earlier (April, 1986), the FBI experienced the Miami debacle, a lengthy shootout where a Bureau-issued 115gn 9mm STHP failed to stop the main BG armed with a Mini-14 "converted" to full-auto. When the smoke cleared, there were 2 dead FBI agents, 2 wounded and 3 permanently crippled. This caused the Bureau to seriously re-think the 9mm.

The 10mm's role is important here because a down-loaded 10mm variant (sometimes called the "FBI-Lite") parented the next cartridge that LE moved to en masse: the .40S&W.

About 1990, as the autoloader trend continued in LE, the .40S&W was developed as a means of putting low-end 10mm "stopping power" - i.e., a .40cal/10mm 180gn slug @ 950-1000fps - into 9mm-size guns.

Today, LE's use of the autoloader as its primary duty weapon appears to be a given.

[fastbolt]

The first service weapon I was issued in '82 was a M66, and either .357 Magnum 158gr JHP's or 125gr JHP's were handed out. You could provide your own ammunition, as long as it was new factory ammunition, wasn't tracer, and the listed velocity didn't exceed 2,000fps (This prevented the then-available S&W .357 Magnum 90gr JSP's from being used). My agency had just stopped issuing Pythons, although many folks were still carrying them, and a lot of folks were carrying up to 6" revolvers chambered in .357, .44 Magnum, .45 Colt, and at least a couple of older .45 ACP revolvers I remember seeing.

We switched to issuing M686 4" revolvers a few years later, but still allowed different personally owned revolvers (and personally owned pistols for plainclothes assignments, 1935 HP's & 1911's being the most popular, with a few P-38's seen here & there) and then standardized everyone to 9mm pistols in '89/90.

[Jeff White]

When I started in 1985 I was issued a m S&W Model 65. About 9 months later an officer retired and they gave me his issue Model 66. Our PD stayed with the Model 65s and 66s until 1992 when we traded the revolvers in for S&W 5906 automatics. From 88 until 92, I carried a Beretta 92F on a trial basis along with one other officer.

Here in South Central Illinois at the time, the ISP was carrying S&W 5904s, most other agencies were carrying S&W .357s. Model 65s and 66s and Model 19s mostly. The Lt. on the Sheriff's dept carried a 1911, but he was the only deputy to carry on automatic back then,

Jeff

[Josey]

The approved firearms in m agency were Colt Trooper MKIII in 357 Magnum and S&W 686 in 357 Magnum. The oldtimers were grandfathered and some still carried S&W M29 44 Magnums and Colt Single Action Army in 45 Long Colt. Barrels length was anywhere from 2" to 8 and 3/8". Officers bought their own ammunition, leather and firearms. Agency did provide shotguns, Ithaca Roadblockers in 12 bore. The patrol cars had Thompson SMGs in 45 ACP in the trunk.

[DMF]

a lengthy shootout where a Bureau-issued 115gn 9mm STHP failed to stop Yes, but that 9mm shot was ultimately determined to be the shot that killed that attacker. It just didn't stop him immediately. Thus the development of the 10mm (and later the .40 S&W), in an effort to get greater penetration. Also, this caused LE agencies to seriously reconsider the bogus claims of Marshal and Sanow that a light bullet at high velocity was the way to go. Wound ballistics experts knew all along that heavier bullets would penetrate deeper and increase the chances of hitting vital organs, major arteries, and most importantly the CNS.

It wasn't a problem with the 9mm as a caliber, it was the loading that MAY have caused it not to penetrate far enough. 127gr or 147gr may have been a different story.

[Group9]

I know what I was carrying then, a Smith and Wesson model 13 loaded with +p 158 grain lead semi wadcutter hollowpoints. I had two HKS speed loaders and a 2x2x2 pouch. I didn't get my first automatic, a Sig P226, until 1989.

[Sunray]

It depends on where you are. Up here, the flatfeet still had .38 Spec, revolvers using semi-wad cutters. No magnums. No trigger jobs. The only thing allowed was a change of grips. Two similar stories about partners wanting to change grips. Two sets of plain clothes cops come into the gun store I worked in. First pair, the guy's gun was rusted shut. Second pair, had his holster, but no gun. His partner went nuts. Rolled into the range one night and there was a Glock with ammo and mags sitting on one of the positions. We call the locals to come get it. Turned out it was a cop's gun he just left there. Opened a CF range one time after the Provincial SWAT guys had been there playing with SMG's. 9mm brass everywhere, my guys had to clean it up. Laquered in primers too.
Cops were as dangerous with any firearm then as they are now. Good guys, for the most part, but not a lot of interest in shooting as a hobby. Even the so-called 'elite' SWAT teams had more negligent range accidents than any shooting club. Most cops now get hired because of their education.
The days of cops being knowledgable about firearms are long over. They're civil servants that carry guns. And a fireman has a far more dangerous job than any cop.

[DMF]

And a fireman has a far more dangerous job than any cop. Well that is not true. According to Dept of Labor stats for the Calender Year 2002 there were 140 LEO fatalities, and 52 firefighter fatalities. So actually being a cop is almost 3 times as dangerous as being a fireman. http://stats.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cftb0159.pdf

As for cops being lousy with guns, some are some aren't, but before you go knocking all cops you should know there are many cops who are very good at weapons handling and marksmanship.

Got any more BS cop bashing you need to get out of your system? :rolleyes:

[JimC]

In the mid 80's my department was issuing the S&W M65 4" HB. We also had some left over M10 4" HB's which were complete issue for many years.

Issue ammo was the Winchester .38 Spl. 158 gr. LSWCHP +P load (FBI load).

It wasn't too long after that we transitioned to the S&W 669 9mmx19 (POS) with poor sights.

[BluesBear]

In the early to mid 1980s the revolver was still King for uniformed duty. Usually a four inch barrel in .357 or .38. Six inch barrels were not uncommon and five inch could still be found in the holsters of old timers who appreciated them.

My department issued the 4" S&W Model 58. We could carry any double action S&W or Colt of .41 or larger with a 4" to 6½ barrel. Off duty was any revolver or semi-auto you could qualify with.
The county police switched from any privately purchased double action S&W or Colt revolver in .38 special or larger with anything from a 3½" to 6½" barrel

The mid to late 80s was the dawning of the semi-automatic dominance.

It took the developement of the DAO pistol to finally nail the lid on the coffin of the revolver as a mainline issue police duty weapon.

[Marko Kloos]

Well that is not true. According to Dept of Labor stats for the Calender Year 2002 there were 140 LEO fatalities, and 52 firefighter fatalities. So actually being a cop is almost 3 times as dangerous as being a fireman.

I don't have the statistics handy, but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that there are at least three times more police officers than firemen employed by the various municipalities. The statistics total can be misleading if you only count total fatalities, not adjusted fatalities (deaths in the line of duty per 1,000 or something similar.)

So, being a cop is only 3 times as dangerous if there are exactly as many firemen on the streets as there are cops.

No cop bashing here, just some statistics logic.

[DonGlock26]

In the Mid-1980's, the revolver was still King in the Detroit area. The most popular pistols were the M-66 and M-686 .357 Magnums. I joined a PD in 1989 and I went through the Academy with an issued M-10 .38spl. Our carry load was the .38spl+P silvertip. We had to have a 12 rnd beltloop ammo carrier, but I was allowed to also have 2 HKS speedloaders. So, instead of 18rdns, I carried 30 rnds.

Once I was through with probation, I was allowed to buy a 9mm G-17 1st. gen. The Glock was hated by the Old timers but feared by the street thugs.:D I had to use 115gr silvertips(1990) Sig P-226's were also being purchased privately. Berettas started with LAPD in the mid 1980's but we never saw them much in Detroit.

In 1992, we transitioned to the new P228DAO. Great gun but the trigger pull was 12lbs+. It was a nightmare getting people qualified every year. We were issued 147gr. hydrashocks. Later, we transitioned to 147gr. Golddots with excellent results.

This year, we transitioned to the P-220R with N.S.:p . We use 230gr RangerT. This Sig is DA/SA and everyone is thrilled. My qual target was one big hole with a few close flyers. Did I mention, I like this pistol. I have put hogue grips on(no grooves). We still use rem 870 shotguns, but AR-15's are on the way for some. We used to use #4 buck, but now we have Fed Tactical 00Buck and slugs.

When I think back to the mid-1980's, I remember the M-686, 125gr JHP's in beltloops, and Black Basketweave leather gear. I bought a 686 but later sold it. I still regret it. Someday......

The Detroit Police Dept. issued a 5" .38spl S&W M-10 in the Mid-1980's. No JHPs allowed. LRN 158gr ammo was issued, but seni wadcutters could be used. Officers could buy their own revolver or semi-auto but it had to be American made and DA/SA. Most DPD cops bought a .357mag S&W revolver with semi wadcutters. Some bought S&W .45 long colt revolvers. Now, that was a big bullet! Others bought S&W 9mm or .45ACP pistols loaded with FMJ ammo. DPD SWAT used H&K P-7's.

[DMF]

Mr. Kloos,

You are correct that with a percentage it is a impossible to tell, and I shouldn't have made the 3x more dangerous comment. However, my point still stands that the post previous to mine was BS cop bashing. LE can be and often is very dangerous. Also, just because a handful of LEOs that Sunray has seen have allegedly had poor gun handling skills, does not make that true of all LEOs. It was cop bashing, nothing more nothing less.

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's All-

Snowdog, this is a fun and interesting question! As
you can imagine, since 1977 I've carried a variety of
duty weapons. Thinking back, I guess the original
Smith & Wesson model 19 .357 magnum went on
patrol with me until I could afford a then hard to
find model 66. I can think of carrying two model
19's during this period; a) was a 4" barrel with
full target accessory's and carried in a basket
weave Sam Brown rig, and b) was a 6" barrel
with full target accessory's carried in a John
Bianchi "high ride" holster.

I was a late bloomer on the auto's for duty scene.
Even though I loved and cherished my S&W model
39-2's, our department wasn't quite ready to make
the switch! So, in 1988 I bought two weapons NIB;
a) West German .45 caliber SIG-SAUER P220A, and
b) a series 80 Colt Combat Elite in .45 ACP. The use
of SA auto's got ruled out, and that left me with the
world class SIG; which I'm very pleased to say, I'm
glad it worked out that way. And after becoming a
master of the SIG's DA first shot capeability, I've
never, ever looked back!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[4v50 Gary]

Twenty years ago most LEOs carried wheelguns. Typically it was your Smith, Colt or Ruger. A few smattering of agencies authorized the 1911. San Jose PD had the S&W M39. More progressive agencies allowed for the Browning Double Action (Sig P220 w/European release). The era of the Wondernine was just dawning upon LE in those days.

BTW, SFPD issued S&W M19s and the SF Sheriff issued M67.

[jc2]

DMF -

You might have missed the post that upset you was from Canada. His statistics and observations might be appropriate for his location.

[BluesBear]

And a fireman has a far more dangerous job than any cop. Well yes and no. There's a whole lot more to that opservation than simple statistics.
Both are noble professions.
Both are dangerous.
But, in almost every call a fireman gets there is something there that will try to kill him. Fire is a ruthless adversary. The heat, the smoke, the weakened structure, the explosions all are constantly trying to grab someone's soul.
Let's not trivialize either professions dangers nor their bravery.


We now return you to your regulary scheduled thread.

[Boats]

Most cops in most of the United States should still be carrying .357 wheelguns, but hey, they are spending other peoples' money.

All I have noticed over the years is the increasingly exponential number of shots fired and shots missed since police carrying autos became widespread.

[WT]

My town's small PD started around 1967. They issued Browning HP's in 9mm. I remember seeing them walking around, cocked and locked. Kept them for over 20 years.

Of course, the chief and most of the new officers were former Marines.

[greyhound]

Haven't seen any mention of the Smith Model 64 .38.

When I bought mine I was told it was a "police trade" (and it does have what looks like a tracking # engraved on it).

I have a sneaking suspicion that it must have been a trainer, since it has no holster wear.

[Sodbuster]

My father was just ending his third term as a sheriff in the early eighties. His duty weapon: Colt Python with 6" barrel. Off-duty weapon was a Charter Arms .38 snubbie. He still has the snubbie but returned the Python to the county when he left to become police chief of the county seat. The county originally bought his revolver for him.

[NMGlocker]

All I have noticed over the years is the increasingly exponential number of shots fired and shots missed since police carrying autos became widespread.
That is because instead of firearms training, Police recruits now spend that time on "cultural sensitivity" training.
Give 'em revolvers and they'll still miss the majority of their shots, just 6 at a time.

[denfoote]

This is just an educated guess, but I believe it was something along the lines of this!!! ;)

http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v22/denfoote/Mod_28-2_left.jpg

[Dr.Rob]

I know a couple of ex-Denver cops that carried the SW model 66 .357, but those who could afford it packed a Python. The Colt Gov't model .45 auto was on the approved list way back then too, still is.

[9mmepiphany]

when i started in '79, the issue weapon was the smith m-15 with the issue ammo being the 125gr .38spl +p loading. guys who were using personal weapons were carrying the m-66 or colt python...i stroked my python with speer 140gr jhp .357mag loads.

after probation, we could carry our own 1911 as an option...i carried a lightly customized combat commander loaded with the federal 185gr jhp

as the "wundernine" era was coming in, our union finally got the department to upgrade to the smith m-13. but they were still issuing the +p .38spl loading with the 125gr .357mag jhp as an option. the m-13 was our standard until they swithed the department to the sig 225/226/229.

i carried an hk p7 and a sig 226 until the department when to sigs...then i started carrying a beretta 96 :neener:

[Checkman]

My father began his career as an LEO in 1970. His first handgun was a nickle plated S&W Model 15 with six inch barrel. In 1973 he was hired by the Idaho State Police and was issued a Pre-28 Highway Patrolman with 4" barrel. It could shoot, but was badly out of time and the barrel was getting close to being a smoothbore. He purchased his own M28-2 (and recieved no reimbursment from the state). In 1979 ISP switched to the Model 65 and in 1990 went to the S&W 4586.

ISP issued Winchester 110 grain 38+p+ hollowpoints (the so-called Treasury load) for the revolvers and when they went to 45 they issued 230 grain Hydra-Shocks.

[Rabbi]

The other posts have accurately answered the question re issue handguns, so may I jump in on the other question about Hydra-Shoks?

Hydra-Shoks were originally marketed as a .357 diameter lead wadcutter with the hollow point and center post. They were sold as a reloading component only in green boxes of a hundred rounds and only came in a 146 gr. weight. I bought 500 rounds initially and did a lot of experimenting in both .38 special and .357 brass. They mushroomed and kept pretty much all their weight from about 900 fps until they tore apart at about 1200. I cannot recall the inventor/manufacturer whose name was on the box as this was in 1977 or 1978. They were very consistent in cast weight and accuracy was phenomenal.

Another ammo manufacturer, S&W I think, bought the patents first and then sold them to Federal who really took them to the jacketed versions in various weights that are available today.

As soon as Federal came out with the 230 gr. in .45 acp, I started buying them and still carry them today.

Rabbi

[BluesBear]

Rabbi, What you are referring to was called Scorpion and it was later sold only as loaded ammo by the Hydra-Shok Corporation in Watkins Glen, New York.
I was a distributor for them starting in the summer of 1978. It was touted as the .60 caliber .38 Special.


It was Ny-Clad ammunition that was a S&W development that was later to sold to Federal when S&W divested itself of it's non-gun holdings. Somewhere I still have a box of that old purple bulleted S&W ammo.

[Rabbi]

Bear,

Thanks for the reminder about the Scorpions. I don't suppose you have any of the old lead w/c bullets laying around, do you?

And you're absolutely right, it was the Ny-Clads that went to Smith first and then Federal.

Good memory, Hoss ............................... better than mine.

Rabbi

[P-35/53]

In 1979 I carried a S&W Model 10, sometime in 1980 I switched to a Model 19 S&W . After that my department authorized the Colt Govt. Model 45 auto amd I switched to that late 80 's had to return to a revolver or double action so I went to a S&W Model 39. Other people on the departtment carried Colt Pythons or S&W model 27 or 28's. I remember one guy carying a Ruger Speed Six. The favored back up gun was a Chiefs Special or a Walther PPK. Also popular was the Hi-Standard derringer in 22. One guy I knewe carried a Charter Arms 44 Special Bulldog.

[DMF]

Well yes and no. There's a whole lot more to that opservation than simple statistics.
Both are noble professions.
Both are dangerous.
I agree 100%.

But, in almost every call a fireman gets there is something there that will try to kill him. Fire is a ruthless adversary. The heat, the smoke, the weakened structure, the explosions all are constantly trying to grab someone's soul.
Yes, and while the fireman face that very real danger, it is usually a known danger. Where the police face unknown dangers in every encounter. Even the person believed to be a victim can be a killer. For example:

His throat was slashed when he answered a call for help.

COBOURG -- A "cop's cop" who specialized in disarming suspects became the first-ever Cobourg police officer killed in the line of duty when his throat was slashed early yesterday. Sources said Const. Chris Garrett, 39, was attacked after coming to the aid of a youth who allegedly posed as a victim of a knife-point robbery.

Garrett, a father of two and one of the force's most experienced officers, managed to fire several shots as he lay wounded, hitting his assailant in the leg, sources said.

An 18-year-old, who lives about two blocks from the shooting scene, was arrested at a local hospital where he had gone to seek treatment with his mother.

Garrett, an 18-year police veteran, died at the scene.

"This is the most dedicated, loyal police officer I've worked with in 31 years," said Cobourg police Chief Garry Clement.

"He gave his 110 per cent every time he went out on the road," Clement said. "He was a leader (who) had the respect of all his peers and superiors."

As the chief spoke, Garrett's wife, Denise, stood at the back of the room, hugging several of the force's 35 officers who gathered to hear the announcement.

"This is a very close-knit police family," said Insp. Paul Sweet. "Denise wanted to come, despite the tragedy that's occurred, to be with the extended family."

City police called in the OPP, who refused to provide details yesterday.

However, sources said Garrett and other officers were dispatched to the city's now-abandoned Northumberland Health Care Centre around 3 a.m. after receiving a call from someone who reported he had a knife held to his throat.

The other officers cleared the scene as Garrett took a statement from a young man, who said he was the caller.

"He thought he was harmless," one police source said.

Garrett was stabbed once before his neck was so severely slashed that a source said he was nearly decapitated.

The officer fired several shots as his attacker fled.

"I heard nine shots. They were very clearly gunshots," said area resident Brian Moffatt. "There were about five shots and then four, with a brief pause in between."

Officers who rushed to the scene found an empty ammunition clip on the ground from what's believed to be Garrett's service weapon. His gun belt was found five metres from his body.

The arrested teen's name and charges were not released yesterday. He is expected to appear for a bail hearing tomorrow.

Garrett lived in Grafton with his wife, his son, Ben, 14, and stepdaughter, Britney, 9.

Garrett, who spent five years on the Peel Regional Police force before joining Cobourg, specialized in use-of-force training and officer safety.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/LondonFreePress/News/2004/05/16/461311.htmlLet's not trivialize either professions dangers nor their bravery.Again, agreed. Both noble professions that can be very dangerous.

[45 Carry]

When I started in 1979 I was issued a S&W Model 10. Later that year the Department got S&W Model 19's. We were only authorized to use 38 Special ammo. I don't remember the type the issued.

[Joe Demko]

My dad was still a police sgt. back then. The standard issue gun was a stainless Ruger Speed Six .357 w/ (I think) a four inch barrel and loaded with a .38 spl +p hollow point. They had purchased the Rugers a few years previously to replace a mixture of aging Colt and S&W .38 specials. I do mean aging, too. Some of those guns were 30 or more years old even then. A few years later they replaced the Rugers with Colt manufactured 1911s in .45 acp. When my dad retired around 1991, he was presented with both his Ruger and his Colt, as well as a S&W Chief's Special that had been issued to him for his duties as crime-prevention officer.
Last time I was up there to visit, I saw a local cop in uniform wearing some kind of Glock in his holster. Either they replaced the Colts or officers can now provide their own guns, I guess.