[Nightcrawler]

I know carbines, and nowadays, M4 clones are all the rage. I find the mock M4 carbines a tad funny; that contour in the barrel is meant for an M203 grenade launcher, you know, not something most of us have to worry about. But, it does save weight.

Does anybody acutally own a 20" AR-15 anymore? I think one of the big reasons for their drop in popularity is the insistence of all the major manufacturers to produce only heavy A2 barrels, making the rifles weigh more than they should. I once owned a Bushmaster carbine with an A2 barrel; it weighed noticably more than the 20" M16A1s we have in the Guards.

Also, I think with the Urban Rifle craze, people buy carbines with ideas of using them in close quarters battle. But, from my own training, an M16 will work. Many shooters insist that the carbine is necessary for indoors, though. Ironically, many of these same shooters have 18 and 20" barreled shotguns. *shrug*

In any case, I guess perhaps I'm past my carbine phase. I might get a FAL carbine, but am quite happy with the full rifle. And you get a lot more out of 5.56mm with the 20" barrel, especially if you do long-ranged shooting (again, something not really in tune with the current Tactical Urban Rifle Craze).

So, I have to ask. Anybody out there own a plane jane, 20" AR-15 anymore, or are they limited to DCM competition only?

[Razor]

I do.

[The Plainsman]

Me too. :cool:

[Nightcrawler]

Well, let's see some pictures, then. I've got broadband, let's make the most of it!

[Rockrivr1]

When shopping for my first AR-15 I went back and forth on what I wanted to use it for. When Competition ended up being the primary reason, I went with the 20" A2. Yep, it's heavy to say the least.

If I had decided on another reason besides competition, I would of went with the M4gery with an A3 detachable carry handle.

[Nightcrawler]

Heavy?

That might mean different things to you than it does to me. How much does a 20" AR-15A2 weigh, anyway?

[ACP230]

Some target ARs, or clones, weigh up to 13-14 pounds.
My 20 inch AR clone has been reworked for match shooting but it isn't anywhere near that heavy.

[BigG]

I think the 20" is the best. Mine are A1 type bbls so no muzzle heaviness. :cool:

[Onslaught]

Around here, the only way to get a 20" AR is to order it. The shelves of all the dealers are FULL of the M4geries.

I admit that my AR is a Carbine, but it's a true pre-ban. If it weren't, then I'd have no use for the "fake" telescoping stock, since they weigh more than the A2 stock.

But FWIW, I do not have the M4 profile. Mine's a fluted HBar, which gives me nearly identical weight savings, without all the contour changes.

My buddy's got a 20" free floated flat top HBar. I know that "heavy" is a relative term, but compared to mine, his feels twice as heavy.

To each his own, and if you've got a 20" A2 or a 14.5" M4, it's all good... But for me personally, when I choose a 20", 9 pound rifle, it will most likely be .308.

[Dave T]

My favorite is the original (civilian version is the SP1 Colt). Even with its 20" barrel it is light and handy. With the original 55g bullet it is flat shooting and has reasonable ballistic performance. Most every thing they've done to the AR since then has been down hill, but that just my opinion. YMMV.

[Gewehr98]

Pre-'94 Colt Competition HBAR, 20" barrel:

http://mauser98.com/hbarsmall.jpg

[SodaPop]

I won't go under a 16inch barrel.

I have the 20inch Dinosaur.

[Steve Smith]

In another thread. http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=94085

That's a 15 pound gun right there.

[jem375]

My DPMS 20" bull barrel weight starts out at 9.5 lbs....shepherd scope, and full mag.........probably around 11 lbs......just guessing on the weight............

[Rockrivr1]

Your right, Heavy is a relative term depending on whose using it for what.

By the time I balance my 20" A2 it will be close to 15 lbs or so. I think that is on the more weighty side of ARs.

[Skunkabilly]

I only have a 18" shotgun because I'm prohibited from having a 14" barrel by law.

[Soap]

I know carbines, and nowadays, M4 clones are all the rage. I find the mock M4 carbines a tad funny; that contour in the barrel is meant for an M203 grenade launcher, you know, not something most of us have to worry about. But, it does save weight.

Most commercial 16" barrels have a heavy profile under the handguards. The M4 profile has a tapered barrel under the handguards, not unlike a standard A2 barrel. This saves a certain amount of weight. Plus the M4 profile handles much better for me.

[Art Eatman]

:banghead: That's our own lil Skunk. Brings shotguns to a rifle gatherin'. Shows up at a gunfight with a single-blade Barlow. :D :D

I wound up with a 20" Bushmaster match target. 9.5 pounds with scope and 20-rounder. Bought it on account of it was cheep-cheep, but wouldn't have paid even that much if it were a short-barrelled critter.

20" is already handicapping that little cartridge.

Art

[Nightcrawler]

Okay, question. Why are all the current AR-15s heavy barrels? I carried an M16A2 in basic training; it was heavier than the A1, yeah, but it didn't weigh as much as my FAL does.

So why all the HBARs? Both 20" and 16" barrels would be lighter overall if they were just a tad bit thinner. On a non-match rifle, there's no real reason for the heavy barrel, is there?

Look at the Armalite AR-180B. 20" barrel, but the thing weighs less than a 16" postban AR-15 carbine.

It seems the AR-15 line is a lot heavier than it needs to be, and that's why people are turned off by the 20". You're right, if I'm going to lug a 9lb gun, it's going to be a .308.

There's no reason a 20" AR-15 should weigh more than eight pounds, unless it's specifically a heavy barreled match model.

Another question: Do all of these HBARs have the same barrel profile as the M16A2, or are they heavier than even that?

[BigG]

20" is already handicapping that little cartridge.
Ain't dat the truth! :cool:

[firestar]

I used to have a 16" bull bbl AR-15 but I sold it because it just never felt right to me. I thought that ARs just weren't my cup of tea.

One day I was in my favorite gun store and the owner showed me an Armalite AR-15 that someone ordered. It had the 20" thin bbl and the triangular handgaurd, I noticed how much nicer it balanced and pointed. This was a real rifle, not some tactical toy! I had to give AR-15s another chance.

I now have a pre-ban vietnam era Colt SP1 with the 20" thin bbl, triangular handgaurd, ect. It is so nice I can hardly see why people fool with them. That triangular handgaurd is one of the most confortable for grips I have ever felt on an assult rifle. Why did they do away with it?

[Gewehr98]

I know that Colt of mine has a decidedly heavy profile underneath the handguard, the barrel gets heavier, it's 1" in diameter as it gets closer to the delta ring.

Bull barrels exist in all the shooting disciplines, I guess AR-15 variants are no different in that respect.

Pretty sad when the poodleshooter weighs as much as the M1 Garand sitting next to it in the safe, ain't it? :D

[Navy joe]

One day I'll own a shorty but with a conventional stock! Right now I am on my second 20" A2 config. If you find the AR heavy, play with a M-1A for awhile, or maybe that's just because my M-1A tips the scales at 12+lbs.

Steve, Love the cleaning stand, one of those things that is so elegantly simple I shoulda thought of it a long time ago. Time to make one.

[Gewehr98]

:confused:


(Methinks the boy has multiple THR threads open in multiple browser windows, truthfully)

[Smoke]

I got the 20". Olyimpic Arms, DCM Profile - PCR-7.

I like it better than the shortys. Just me.

And my choice for CQB is the 12 gauge. My AR will be down the list of choices for any confrontation within 25 yards.

[TracerSpies]

Amen to firestar's comments on the original handguards! To me, the original setup with them and the 20" barrel still is the match made in heaven (and is exactly how my Colt remains today).

[Onslaught]

Another question: Do all of these HBARs have the same barrel profile as the M16A2, or are they heavier than even that?
HBars have a fatter profile under than handguards than the A2's. I think they'd be much better if they were the same diameter all the way, rather than the extra fat under the guards...

A2 Profile:
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/barrel-assemblies/Images/abbl-20a2a.jpg

16" HBAR:
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/barrel-assemblies/Images/abbl-16a.jpg

Here's some handy weight info from the Bushmaster FAQ's (http://www.bushmaster.com/faqs/techdatafaqs.asp)

BARREL WEIGHTS...
For informative purposes (and because we answer these questions all the time!) here are the comparative weights of our barrels.
All weights are in pounds (for a milled front sight, subtract 0.2 lbs.)
10" - Heavy Bbl. - 2.0 / Fluted Bbl. - 1.9
11.5 " - Heavy Bbl. - 2.2 / Fluted Bbl. - 2.0
11.5x5.5" - Heavy Bbl. - 2.6 / Fluted Bbl. - 2.5
14.5" - Heavy Bbl. - 2.5 / Fluted Bbl. - 2.2
14AK" - Heavy Bbl. - 2.7 / Fluted Bbl. - 2.4
14VO" - Heavy Bbl. - 2.7 / Fluted Bbl. - 2.4
16" - Heavy Bbl. - 2.7 / Fluted Bbl. - 2.3
16 Dissipator" - Heavy Bbl. - 3.0 / Fluted Bbl. - 2.6
20" - Heavy Bbl. - 3.5 / Fluted Bbl. - 3.0
24" - Heavy Bbl. - 3.9 / Fluted Bbl. - 3.1
26" - Heavy Bbl. - 4.0 / Fluted Bbl. - 3.2
And our Military style barrels...
XM177 Bbl. - 1.7 lbs.
M4 Bbl. - 2.0
M4AK Bbl. - 2.2
M4VO Bbl. - 2.2
M4 Dissipator Bbl. - 2.3
20A2 Bbl. - 2.5

[Poodleshooter]

I've got a 20"Colt HBAR. I have an AK for my lightweight carbine. The OAL on the AK is MUCH shorter than my AR, and shorter than most 16" barreled AR's with the full size post ban stock sets.
I'll buy a 16" if the ban goes away, but I just happen to think that they look silly with the full size stocks attached.

[gun-fucious]

Most barrels are HBARS
because less time on the lathe
is more money in the makers pocket

[Hkmp5sd]

20" barrels on both my AR-15 SP1 and M16A1. Of course, I *DO* have a 14" Bushmaster M4 upper and Collapsible buttstock for my M16. Gotta have that coolness factor! :)

[Nightcrawler]

A friend of mine wants to build an AR-15. Wants a 20" barrel, he says, but would prefer an old school A1 profile barreled upper.

Does anyone make such a critter anymore? A complete upper receiver with an A1 profile barrel (post ban)?

[Skunkabilly]

My shotgun reply was in reference to the original posts:
Many shooters insist that the carbine is necessary for indoors, though. Ironically, many of these same shooters have 18 and 20" barreled shotguns. *shrug*

[Rob96]

During my time as an Air Force SP I carried a 20" M-16 pre-forward assist with triangular handguards. I own a 16" carbine with a heavy barrel. I just prefer the feel of it. I like the handiness of the carbine length, and for me the little extra weight seems to balance it all out just right. Like I say, that is why there are so many different firearms, something that fits and appeals to everyone.

[SodaPop]

I have big ape arms and my Bushmaster XM15E2 feels like a toy compared to my FAL. I still find the M1A and my Winchester Model 70 to be my ideal firearms. Everything else feels small.

[Atticus]

Mines a 20" A2. As other have already said, it's a lightweight compared to the FAL ( I currently have) and the M1A (I used to have). I do like the M4 set up though, and will eventually get another upper in that config.

[bad_dad_brad]

I opted for the 16" hbar. Almost a pound less than the 20" hbar. My intent was to replace my Mini-14, so I went with the carbine. I really like the way my shorty handles.

A friend of mine was a Lt. in the Gulf War, and he recently bought a 20" hbar. He commented on it's heavier weight than his service M-16. He still likes it though.

I plan on someday getting an upper in 20" or 24" for target and varminting.

[Robby from Long Island]

Ten years ago bought a pre-ban Colt Sporter HBAR, but that's the way I wanted it.

I liked the heavy barrel, but maybe that's because I already had 5 bolt action heavy barreled varmint rifles.

[thumbtack]

Mine's 20 inches. ;)

[Andrew]

Ok so i'am one of the last to post in.
Now i will say my AR15/M16 is a 20" Colt Match Target HBAR and i love it.
And the only other AR15/M16 i would give it up for would be a real Colt/FN M16A2;)

[Nightcrawler]

Does ANYBODY make an M16A1 or M16A2 (prefer in that order) weight barreled upper receiver anymore? ANYBODY?

Or are they all these heavy barrels that are heavier than M16A2 ones?

[dadman]

kurt's Kustom Firearms turns down HBAR's to the gov't profile for approx $50.
20" is the way to go.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Bushmaster sells the A2 profile barrel. They also have their lightweight barrel profile (A1) and are announcing an expansion of that line of barrels at the upcoming SHOT show from what I understand.

There are also plenty of surplus A1 barrels out there if you don't mind being limited to 55gr by the 1/12 twist. I think Century Arms has a big bundle of A1 parts from down south.

[Kharn]

I have one 20" A2 profile (Colt) and one 20" very-HBar profile from Oly (a full 1" diameter under the guards, not tapered like Bushmaster's HBars). Everyone needs at least one 20" A2-sighted rifle (barrel contour is up to the user).

Kharn

[Jeff White]

...20" barreled AR15s. Only one heavy barrel though. One Colt AR15 SP1 (original light barrel), one Colt AR15A2 HBAR, one EA lower, Bushmaster V-Max upper with Colt USGI contour 20" barrel, one Bushmaster lower, A2 upper with Diemaco C7 20" barrel.

I think that the whole M4gery thing is what's selling the short barrelled ARs right now. Everyone wants a kewl looking carbine like they see our SOF troopers carrying on the news.

Jeff

[trvlr905]

Got a Rock River 20 incher. Like it a lot and can shoot it relatively well. I do eventually want to get a RR 16" carbine with midlength handguards and an ACE stock. No, it won't be as light as an M4, but I'm sure I can make it hit what I'm aiming at.

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

I bought my Comp HBAR in '96 or so...time flies when you're having fun. Looks a lot like Gewehr98's, except mine has no bayonet lug so I can't do any drive-by bayonetings on the rifle range. It also has the removeable carry handle, which I like. I have a 6x24 mil dot mounted on mine, which adds even more weight.

He's right about it being as heavy (or maybe heavier) than a Garand, too. Seems to me like it 'feels' heavier.

Regards,
Rabbit.

[4v50 Gary]

I've got a Colt HBar with Colt Delta cheekpiece, scope base & Tasco 3x9 with integral rings. Also got an Oly 20" HB upper.

[444]

I own two 20" rifles. A Bushmaster, and a Colt SP1.
I enjoy them, but life doesn't stop there. I also have several 16" rifles. They all have their place. If I could only have one, it would be a 16", but I certainly enjoy shooting my 20" rifles also. I also have an M4orgery. I like the look of it. Heck, after the first couple you are buying the rest for looks.

Oh, and I have three shotguns with 18" barrels.

[slick slidestop]

Count me in as another 20 incher..... I love mine