Okay, I'll pose my question here, then.


PDA






jimpeel
May 17, 2004, 07:16 PM
I posted this on the L&P forum but the thread was closed in six minutes flat essentially bearing stark witness to my complaint.

I was told to put the thread in the Technical Forum but noone ever comes here to see what is being said unless they have a problem. Here is the text of the thread:

Why are topics that are about the news of the day which are germain to the politics and legalities of the war in Iraq and the torture scandal being closed on a wholesale basis? These are not off topic in a forum that is entitled "Legal and Political".

Perhaps we need a forum called "The Lounge" or somewhat that is for "off topic" threads so we have a place for overzealous moderators to send them instead of closing them.

I would like to know what the other posters at THR think of this idea and I will attempt -- note ATTEMPT -- to place a thread to direct them here in L&P.

If you enjoyed reading about "Okay, I'll pose my question here, then." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Correia
May 17, 2004, 07:31 PM
The mass closures you are seeing are a result of the new policy for that forum. Read Oleg's message floated at the top. It wasn't a decision made lightly and the staff talked about it a bunch first.

Basically we were getting tore apart by political topics that weren't related to the RKBA. People were at each other's throats. Mods were trying their best to keep it clean, but it kept getting ugly. Other wise great members would loose their cool and get banned. Basically it just plain sucked and we didn't see it getting any better the closer we got to the election.

So now it is L&P as relating to gun rights and the BOR as it was originally and as it was back on TFL. That is what Oleg decided on, and we all felt that was the best course of action at this point.

And we do check Tech support, and we usually end up discussing any suggestions or questions posted here.

greyhound
May 17, 2004, 07:36 PM
Basically we were getting tore apart by political topics that weren't related to the RKBA.

As someone who often got sidetracked on those non-gun political topics, I can say I agree with the new policy 100%.

Even as I particpated in the Iraq arguments, the "Kerry/Bush is the devil" nonsense, I wished it could just be about firearms and BOR.

I'm very excited to see the new rules.

If I want to argue general politics I'm sure there are places on the net for that!

Moparmike
May 17, 2004, 07:36 PM
I like the idea. However, I would prefer that it didnt become like the open discussion at Mercedes Shop (http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/forumdisplay.php3?forumid=16). I dont figure it will, as that forum is rather poorly moderated and has about 20% of the standards THR has.


In any case, we are one big happy family, and I think that people here like to associate with people here. I personally think that finding a forum that is as well mannered as THR is as likely as me finding a pristene MG42 buried in a PVC pipe in my back yard.


So once again, I emplore the admins here to consider an idea like "The Lounge." Heck, I moderate a small political forum anyway. If no one else wants it, I will volunteer to moderate it.

SkunkApe
May 17, 2004, 07:39 PM
I wouldn't visit these forums nearly as much as I do now if it wasn't for the political threads. (Puts on earmuffs to block out the thunderous applause.)

Most gunowners on this forum are politically knowledgeable, and I value their opinions. How many times can we discuss 9mm vs .45, anyway? The non-gun political debates keep it lively.

SkunkApe
May 17, 2004, 07:43 PM
Oh, I just saw the thread-closing carnage. I'm severely disappointed. Its been fun, guys.

capt. Nemo
May 17, 2004, 07:48 PM
Jim,

As near as I can figure, the "M" word was being used occasionally in a less-than-complimentary manner. We can't talk about the people we're fighting...and who killed 3,000 on 9/11/01...because they're not really -the "M" word - and anyway, it's just a handful of them and the rest of the "M" people all over the world are 100% behind us and are our friends and were apalled what these not-really-"M" people did on 9/11. There's very little support for them in the "M" world and they'll soon dry up and blow away from lack of grassroots support. Isn't that what happened to the Germans and Japanese in WWII?

The threat of being banned from this is wielded like a sword in order to keep us from talking about forbidden subjects and expressing forbidden opinions (however stupid or outlandish).

It's a privately owned public forum. They can sit around all day and moderate each other...I'm gone.

Adios...oops! Does that have religious connotations?

Sindawe
May 17, 2004, 07:54 PM
I concur with jimpeel and his suggestion for a general type sub-forum here on THR. I too log in primarily for the political conversation. While I like firearms, own several of various types and greatly enjoy defeating hords of invading paper targets and blood thirstly jugs of water :D my primay focus is on the legal/political side of firearms (get enough tech stuff in my job).

I'll also volunteer my time as a mod for such a sub-forum, should other, more experienced folks be lacking.

Moparmike
May 17, 2004, 07:59 PM
Well, after even a light-hearted Clinton joke that only 3 people out of 11,000 would have had a problem with was locked up per the new rule*, I can safely say that this place wont be as fun as it was. I hope that the old THR spirit will carry on in TFL, where there will hopefully be those that allow us to live up to the TFL L&P forum's description: Round table discussions range from the Bill of Rights, to concealed carry, to general political issues.


<sigh> :(




*Coronach, I am not taking issue with you. Just the new policy.

joab
May 17, 2004, 08:05 PM
I whole heartedly agree with Skunkape.
I believe there is more to the current line of moderation than has been stated.
A quick review of the posts that brought moderators admonitions will give you a clue as to what that is

Ian
May 17, 2004, 08:05 PM
Edit: post removed. I'd misunderstood the new rules.

SkunkApe
May 17, 2004, 08:05 PM
The Firing Line is open for new posts again? Where? Same old place?

DKTyork
May 17, 2004, 08:10 PM
I highly look forward to the opinions developed here. It would be a shame to have an extremely narrow focus. If someone doesn't like Legal & Political - they can just keep to othere topics. There is a cultural war going on in this country. If we don't get our 'own pro-gun house' together - we are in trouble. There have been excellent politcal discussions. If the moderators are not up to it - then they aren't. There are other topics. Of course they might become extinct in 20 years because of the current political trends!!! :banghead: :D

fjolnirsson
May 17, 2004, 08:14 PM
Like Skunhkape and Sindawe, I spend a lot of time on the LandP. Or I did, at least. I am not as knowledgeable about firearms as I would like, so I lurk at the other boards a lot, and post very little.
I greatly enjoyed my time discussing all manner of legal/political topics with a wide variety of folks, from Libertarians, to the occasional Democrat, to the rare late night visits by trolling anti-gun radicals.
Those times appear to be over.
I recognize that THR is not a democracy. I understand that this is Oleg's decision. I can't change it.
I think it is very sad that such lively discussions have come to an end because a few people could not keep their cool.
In the last several days, I have seen several people leave this forum, and thought it was somewhat silly, in a way. Now I am not so certain.
Until now, I thought that way.
I don't know if I will be around as much. I don't expect weeping, or calls to return, merely stating my position.
It isn't so much a case of taking my ball and going elsewhere, it's more like the basketball nets were removed and we are being told to play baseball instead.
As I understand it, L&P was traditionally reserved for RKBA issues. All I know is how it was when I came here. I observed no tendency toward trouble until the recent upheaval.
If our members can't be trusted to remain civil on general political issues, why stay here? The high road isn't something to be followed only in the best of times, when it isn't a sore subject. It is a way of life.
Thanks to Oleg, and all of the mods for the hard work keeping this site up.
I haven't yet decided to stay or go.
We'll see.
Just wanted to state my position, and my support for a general political forum. :(

c_yeager
May 17, 2004, 08:16 PM
If and when a thread gets out of control why not just delete it then? Rather than deleting anything that MIGHT be controversial preemptively?

Antlurz
May 17, 2004, 08:21 PM
As a moderator on another firearms website, I am fully aware of how close some people are to the general politics subject. The way I see it, this year may be the most important one in my entire life when it comes to the direction this country is to take and being silenced is not a good thing.

The current topic of discussion is the only reason I ended up here to start with, and now that it has been run through the dip tank to kill off the parasites, I really don't know where I will end up. I am FULLY aware of how big a headache moderating can be...as I said... I are one..and would be willing to do extra duty on another site as well.. but from MY perspective, I spend 14-16 hours a day online and to put it plainly, too narrow a focus can be a death knell to an otherwise good site. I really have a LOT more to say about it, but I'll keep it short and simple for starters.

Ron

Sindawe
May 17, 2004, 08:23 PM
I suspect the moderators have a different take, but from my perspective closing a thread, and stating WHY its been closed, specialy if the reason os more than just being OT, is far more instructive that just deleting a thread. Other who were participating, or just lurking can learn from errant behaivor that way, lessing the chance that such events would need to be repeated.

c_yeager
May 17, 2004, 08:26 PM
I find a bit of irony in the idea that a GUN forum of all places has decided that due to the failure of existing rules (civlility etc.) that what is needed are MORE rules rather than better enforcement of the existing rules.

Sound familier to anyone else?

Gary H
May 17, 2004, 08:35 PM
We have proven that we are not able to handle emotional topics. I should say that some of our posts could easily be used against our interests. How can hotheads be trusted with guns? Why listen to people that want to kill so many civilians? Shall issue CCW may not look so appealing to the public when its proponents seem so violent. Look at how childish we appear. Why let good members fall prey to banishment? My memory isn't what it should be, but I'll include myself in the criticism.

I would support the establishment of an adjunct site to civilly discuss such topics and would be happy to participate in its formation. I am a political junkie/history buff and really enjoy the very topics that we can no longer have, but giving up those topics is a small price to pay for a more respectable presentation.

cordex
May 17, 2004, 08:50 PM
The poliical discussions were a large part of why I spent so much time here, as well.

Oh well.

It's sort of a lose-lose situation for Oleg & Co. If they let the tangental discussions continue, tempers will be lost, long-time members will leave and some potential members will be chased off. If they lay down the law (as they have chosen to do), long-time members will leave and some potential members will be chased off.

When performing triage, one must consider who one can save as well as who one wants to save. It's not always an easy choice.

Don't Tread
May 17, 2004, 08:58 PM
I was wondering, There was a thread on a gun "Buy Back" in Iraq that was closed down because it was "off topic", It seemed to be a RKBA thread to me, It may be international but it is still RKBA in my opinion.

Wildalaska
May 17, 2004, 09:00 PM
The Board that I moderate on hads Banned politics plain and simple, becasue people cannot be civil...simple as that..

And quite frankly, I see a post advocating rampant killing, I have trouble being civil myself.

WildtryingtobeaniceguyAlaska

greyhound
May 17, 2004, 09:02 PM
I am not as knowledgeable about firearms as I would like,

That's EXACTLY why personally I am thrilled at the changes.

As a fairly new gunnie (and a conservative) it was much more familiar and easy to argue about the 2004 election or Iraq than to wade into the other forums that dealt with techical gun stuff I didn't know much about ( I did but I always got bogged down in L&P, and there is only so much time in a day!).

Now, I can feel free to go learn about rifles and black powder shooting, 2 things I know nothing about, but now that railing about John Kerry or Howard Dean is not an option I will actually do.

I spend a lot of time perusing blogs (web logs of conservative or liberal editorial comment) and that combined with THR L&P was starting to
really be depressing; now I feel like I have a place to get away from non-2A politics.

Shovelhead
May 17, 2004, 09:07 PM
As a moderator on another site, I watched this same thing happen following 9-11-01.
As emotions took control, we had to spend much more time critiquing every thread, locking many and losing some folks in the process.
(members weren't too happy with the change):fire:
Some members who chose to leave, came back later. Others chose not to.

As time passed and emotions took a backseat to normal civility, we could start to ease up on the tight reigns.

This is a No-Win situation. :banghead:

Shovelhead

Joe Demko
May 17, 2004, 09:07 PM
I think it is an excellent idea to limit discussion at this board to topics directly related to firearms. Things were getting really ugly here the last few weeks and none of the ugliness was spawned in a firearms or RKBA thread.
If you want to rant about genocide that you think is necessary, there's StormFront and HardCoreTalk.
If you want to talk to a very intelligent group of people about various and sundry topics on an intellectual level (including guns from time to time) may I suggest The Straight Dope Message Board. It is the only board other than this one where I am an active participant, albeit under a different name. A couple caveats before you go there. First, it isn't free. It's about $4 a year to belong. Second, anything you say there in some of the forums you had better be prepared to back up with some darned good citations. There are some incredibly intelligent and erudite members at that board and they mercilessly vivisect people who engage in faulty logic or sloppy debate.
IAC, this is Oleg Volk's board and there is, therefore, nothing to discuss about any rules he chooses to put in place.

7.62FullMetalJacket
May 17, 2004, 09:10 PM
I find a bit of irony in the idea that a GUN forum of all places has decided that due to the failure of existing rules (civlility etc.) that what is needed are MORE rules rather than better enforcement of the existing rules.

Sound familier to anyone else?

Yep, it sure does.

I have been contemplating the challenge with L&P over the weekend. I do believe that it is a mistake to narrow the focus. We are a group of like-minded individuals with our love of firearms as the centerpiece. Certainly we need to discuss political issues amongst our larger family so that we can trade thoughts, ideas, opinions and share news.

Obviously I do not pay anything for this forum other than the time I spend here and I have appreciated the opportunity to participate.

I do believe that the Moderators had a decision to make: keep the gunnies happy or bow to the altar of inclusiveness. I think we know who won. The DU-types invaded this happy family, rent it asunder, and precipitated a draconian change in the discussion. Divide and conquer, infest the "enemy" camp. We know that several of the party crashers had no interest in guns or the RKBA.

The DU terrorists have won the day. There is one less political forum for gun owners to preach to the choir. This beacon of free discourse has been manipulated. Political speech has been squelched as a result of the acts of a few. The enemies of freedom and RKBA are dancing in the streets celebrating their victory.

It is true that some of the actors here presented very offensive arguments, and they were banned. Others steered clear or condemned these offensive arguments, and now we are all barred from any political discussions save the narrow confines of RKBA.

It was not religious discussion that was the problem. On May 15th, religious discusion was prohibited. It is still prohibited. The tools were in the tool box to correct that little problem.

So, what are we left with. Which 1911 is better? Did you hear about the new Glock KB? How is that new Mosin Nagant? What about the new Spyderco I saw at the show? What is the funniest thing you heard at a gunshow? My .45 acp can beat up your .40 S&W? So I was at the range today......

All of these topics are interesting once in a while, but even the most devoted must tire from it all. L&P, in its old form, allowed a more engaging forum for the lulls and dupes in other forums.

Politics, however, requires involvement. The RKBA does not stand alone. The power structure in Washington will determine the fate of RKBA. The power structure in the states will affect the RKBA locally. The elections will too. As will issues that affect both the politicians and the elections. I think we adults could have found a way to discuss all things politic, save the verboten subjects, with a little moderation, tact and maturity. But instead we have our spectrum narrowed, in my mind, unnecessarily.

I do believe that a large part of the success of this forum has been L&P. Other gun boards do not have near the subscriber numbers as does this board, nor do they have near the variety of opinions, points of view, solutions, or just plain old information, links, etc. I believe that this was a place to pull up a chair, read, learn, talk about guns, knives, RKBA, and have a roundtable concerning politics in general. That was part of the magic: one-stop shopping, all the needs met, all part of one family.

Something very significant has happened. I wish I could see the bright side. After 3 days of thought, it only gets more depressing.

capt. Nemo
May 17, 2004, 09:17 PM
Come on fellas',

It's all about political correctness. We can't say anything controversial. We can't say anything that might offend anyone. We can't say anything that could be construed (or misconstrued) as anything except that which fits with current politically correct don't-hurt-their-feelings "freedom of speech".

cordex
May 17, 2004, 09:23 PM
It's all about political correctness. We can't say anything controversial. We can't say anything that might offend anyone. We can't say anything that could be construed (or misconstrued) as anything except that which fits with current politically correct don't-hurt-their-feelings "freedom of speech".
Was a time that this was called "politeness". Wasn't all that very many years ago at all that my mother told me pretty much the same thing and gave me what-for with a wooden paddle when I was rude.

Just because I'm a little bit older doesn't mean I shouldn't remember those lessons.

hso
May 17, 2004, 09:23 PM
On a site that is identified from the start as a firearms related site I prefer to keep the discussions limited to firearms related topics. L&P skirts the margins of the limits as it is. There are a huge number of other sites that other areas of interest can use up server resources.

Old Fuff
May 17, 2004, 09:24 PM
As I understand it, The High Road is supposed to be dedicated to the discussion of firearms issues – technical, legal and political. If it goes beyond what I see as reasonable limits – especially during an election year – it may descend into chaos. Without doubt there are those who have no affinity for guns or gun rights who are making posts with the goal of accomplishing our self-inflected demise. I would hate to see anyone leave, but by the same token I think we need to remember why we are here. Oleg was good enough to provide us with this forum. Many have benefited as a result of what they have been able to learn. Often the information wasn’t available elsewhere, or apparently so. The High Road has a reputation of being the best of its kind, and I hope it stays that way.

Joe Demko
May 17, 2004, 09:26 PM
We are a group of like-minded individuals with our love of firearms as the centerpiece.

No, that is how you wished it would be. There was always a majority of conservative Republicans here, so they were always the loudest voice heard. The next largest group, which included a number of moderators, would be Libertarians; they were like-minded with the conservative Republicans on some matters, but not others. There was always a smattering of liberal Democrats, those that were thick skinned enough to carry on through the constant use of perjoratives like "Demo-rat' and "Demoncrat" and other childish nonsense. The only thing they had in common with the rest was the belief in RKBA. Despite that relatively diverse population, things were reasonably civil here until the last couple months. Then, because of the war and the election, there was an enormous elevation in rhetoric from the leftists and rightists alike. DU agents? Give me a break. This place probably doesn't even register on their radar, despite the number of member who went trolling over at DU. Just like there were new leftist members who were confrontative, we had an influx of conservative members who were just as ugly. Plenty of blame to go around.
None of which matters.
Oleg's board = Oleg's rules.

7.62FullMetalJacket
May 17, 2004, 09:27 PM
On a site that is identified from the start as a firearms related site I prefer to keep the discussions limited to firearms related topics. L&P skirts the margins of the limits as it is. There are a huge number of other sites that other areas of interest can use up server resources.

Call me a newbie and powder my behind. Exactly where can someone talk politics amongst other gunnies?

Don't Tread
May 17, 2004, 09:32 PM
Am I on everyone's ignore list??

What about the closure that I mentioned, The way I see it a thread on a gun "Buy Back" in Iraq is definitley a RKBA issue, Why was it closed for being "Off Topic"??

Gary H
May 17, 2004, 09:33 PM
How about adding to the float in Legal with links to firearms sites with hot general political forums? That might help ease the pain for some.

Gunsnrovers
May 17, 2004, 09:43 PM
I've been relatively silent as I've got much to learn and little to add. That being said, I tended to drift over here as the other boards I belong to tend to be rather dry. The threads I found offensive, I ignore. Those I found interesting tend to provide good reading. All in all, I thought it was a good mix, especially considering the sheer number of members.

Based on what's going on, I guess it's time to move on. The tech information and legal news I need can be gained on my other forums.

:(

Diggler
May 17, 2004, 09:45 PM
Mods, could we at least hear that this may not be a permanent solution to a temporary problem?

If we all have to keep our heads down on the desk for a while, fine. I think everyone's found that article that made them think, "The guys at THR will get a kick out of this," and come straight here to see if it's been posted, and submitting it. Now you come here, look at all the lock icons (even on seemingly non-controversial topics), shrug and leave to surf the internet.

I think there's a big difference between "Nuke all Muslim" threads and "WMD Found in Iraq". And to tell you the truth, although it got harsh at times, I can say that I learned some stuff from the religious debate. Several of the threads were definitely harsh and needed be closed, and some members deserved a good spanking. But I think the potential was definitely there to educate some good people who had some misconceptions.

If it's in your thoughts that the reins may be loosened a little in the future after the worldwide tension settles down, this crackdown would be a lot easier to swallow.

hso
May 17, 2004, 09:48 PM
7.62 FMJ,

Try here -

http://www.uspoliticsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2960

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=5

and even

http://liberalforum.org/liberalforum/index.php?showtopic=523

jimpeel
May 17, 2004, 09:53 PM
The problem we have here is that we are able to post a thread on what type of firearm was used to execute a prisoner in Saddam's prison; but we are restricted from expounding on the moral repugnance of that act.

We can speak to the issue of the types of firearms being used against our troops; but we are restricted from speaking about how those firearms are being fired from Mosques to inflame the religious fervor of the populace.

We can speak to the issue of how taxes affect the ownership of firearms; but we are restricted from speaking about how our taxes are being used in other ways to abrogate our civil rights.

In each example, there is a mixture of firearms politics and general politics. The moment one strays from the former to the latter, the thread is closed as "off topic". Some call this hijacking; and some call this natural progression. The interjection of "Yeah, but what about ..." will see a closure even though that segue may be germain to the discussion.

cropcirclewalker
May 17, 2004, 09:58 PM
I've only been on for a week or so, so I don't know if I have been doing the wrong stuff. I usually stay the hell out of the warmonger, peacemonger threads. Is that what got turned off?

What is a DU?

Marshall
May 17, 2004, 10:05 PM
I enjoy this site and all it contains. I will continue to be a part of it and contribute.

However, it appears to me, and I assume a lot of others, that the main reason the threads started being closed was because of people referring to the "M" religion in a way that was sensitive to the owners/moderators of the site. I respect their right to do whatever they want to do in relation to how this forum is run, it's theirs.

I personally happen to believe that if the threads were sensitive to a religion other than "M" there would not be the amount of closed threads and heavy handedness there has been.

I only say what I am saying to give some insight to the moderators of how I believe many forum members see this. I think the site will loose a lot of members and credibility because of this. I sure hope the site decides to offer a political forum that can cross into religious matters when in a relevant topic. It's much better to offer a subject we all share an interest in than to forbid it, ban it, etc. like government bans and regulates many things we all hold dear.

There are too many classy people on this site that would like to have an avenue for discussion, with each other, to make a rule that precludes any discussion on these topics. It's kind of a slap to think we can't and a slap to the moderators to think they can't moderate it well enough. After all, free thought, speech and expression are what we fight for and one reason this site exists! Keeping people orderly is a different ballgame, if they can't be orderly warn them then, boot them off. Instead, the stance is being taken to protect members from getting booted by managing what they can talk about and discuss. I see that decision as extremely ironic given what we all hold near and dear.

If the reason though, is like I said it appears to be, then so be it. I enjoy the site regardless.

Thanks for offering it and keeping an open mind.

Marshall :)

Gary H
May 17, 2004, 10:29 PM
I guess that I wrongly thought that this site was about firearms and our rights with regards to firearms.

It did bother me that some members never ventured outside of the “Legal” forum and only touched on topics not relevant to firearms or firearms ownership. Clearly, some members posted to get the majority riled up and unfortunately, some took the bait and then provided Michael Moore with material for his next movie.

If we lose the folks not interested in firearms and our rights, then so be it. If you find the remaining discussions boring, then by all mean come back when you have a question regarding a firearm, or, god forbid, when your unarmed love one is mugged. A board can not be all things to all people.

I love politics, but part of politics is staying focused on what you are about. The political side of this board is about promoting our rights as gun owners. It also provides years of firearms related experience. My wife will applaud this change, because I spent way too much time falling prey to my love of politics and history. I probably managed to post on 70% of the off-topic threads. Perhaps TFL will step up and provide just the political environment that so many are seeking. Best to all.. I'm staying.

griz
May 17, 2004, 10:36 PM
Hey guys, put yourself in Oleg's place. He wants a nice board about guns and related issues that will showcase how reasonable and polite gun people can be. L&P starts this way and is given tremendous latitude due to the demonstrated good behaviour and the complexities of the issues. Along comes a dirty little war and people get rowdy. Even if you don't agree that "kill em all" threads make the posters, and by implication gun people, look bad, you have to agree that he has the right to get tougher to bring L&P back in line. What else do you expect him to do?

I never even saw the thread in question, but I suspect that when we show that we can be trusted with keyboards again the rules will slowly loosen back up a little. Let's play nice and see what happens.

jimpeel
May 17, 2004, 10:56 PM
It has been expounded that TFL held to the firearms line. This is patently untrue. A couple of examples:

I started a thread there called John Walker has done NOTHING wrong (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101133). It had nothingb to do with firearms other than the mention he was captured with one. It had 110 replies and 1,936 views.

The third highest response (tied at 315 responses with "READ BEFORE POSTING! World Trade Center Terror Attack?") ever at TFL was a thread about the Ms. Boards. Perusing the Ms Politics forum and....... (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88006) with 315 responses and 5,561 views.

In fact, of the ten top responded to threads in TFLs L&P, seven were about subjects other than firearms. Here they are by title. The first number is the number of responses and the second number is the number of views.

Why the difference in murder rates between Europe and US? 681 / 13,714

Weapons don't kill people. People kill people 320 / 3,900

READ BEFORE POSTING! World Trade Center Terror Attack? 315 / 15,321

Perusing the Ms Politics forum and....... 315 / 5,561

Who Needs A Palestinian State? 290 / 4,270

Draft 248 / 2,962

5000 rifles turned in in Maryland? 240 / 12,660

origin of the "right to keep and bear arms" 239 / 2,739

How much longer will the superpower USA last? 218 / 2,770

Pledge of Allegiance Ruled Unconstitutional 210 / 3,346

So what happened between the last day of TFL, and today at THR, that so many of us who are TFL alumnus went from gentlemen and ladies to cads?

The fact is that we are having the same debates now as we had then but we have allowed a few interlopers, agents provocateur as it were, to invade the site and harangue the site owners into restricting what always was.

Nothing changed but the attitudes of a very few who were unable to carry on a decent debate without epithets and vitriol.

Get rid of the agents provocateur and let's get on with the debates!

pax
May 17, 2004, 11:07 PM
If and when a thread gets out of control why not just delete it then? Rather than deleting anything that MIGHT be controversial preemptively?
c_yeager,

This isn't preemptively. Preemptively would be if we hadn't tried leaving such threads open and just dealing with misbehavior.

Fact is, we tried it that way. It worked for awhile. It doesn't work now, because emotions are running so high with the war in Iraq and election season upon us.

No one of the moderators has 26 hours in a day. None of us wants to spend all of our online time chiding, haranguing, rebuking, or banning people who should know better (and who do know better, when emotions aren't running so high).

I do believe that the Moderators had a decision to make: keep the gunnies happy or bow to the altar of inclusiveness. I think we know who won. The DU-types invaded this happy family, rent it asunder, and precipitated a draconian change in the discussion.
7.62FMJ,

I frankly don't believe it'll be the shooters who go elsewhere when the board focuses more on shooting. *shrug*

As for the "altar of inclusiveness," THR has never pretended to be anything other than a venue where gun-loving folks of all ages, all sexes, all nationalities, all religions, all political persuasions, and from all geographic locations could come and talk about their shared interest in guns and gun rights.

Our members come in a lot of different colors and nationalities. They describe themselves as Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, libertarian, anarchist, anarcho-capitalist, Green, Constitutionalist, liberal, conservative, neo-conservative, gay, straight, bisexual, Christian, Catholic, Mormon, JW, Muslim, Buddhist, Pagan, New Age, Wiccan, atheist, agnostic, and dozens of others I haven't mentioned.

Those who are bothered by the idea of rubbing shoulders with -- and being polite to -- people in all the above categories are more than welcome to go away and stay away. Nobody is going to weep for the loss of bigots who depart because they got called on their bigotry, nor will we apologize for saying that genocide and religiocide are beyond the pale and will not be tolerated on THR's bandwidth.

Don't Tread -- I'll drop you a PM a bit later.

pax

Don't Tread
May 17, 2004, 11:09 PM
Nevermind, I posted at the same time as a response, This was going to be about me being ignored

Hawkmoon
May 17, 2004, 11:23 PM
After reading some of the comments in this thread, I went back and re-read the forum rules:

1.) All topics and posts must be related to firearms or civil liberties issues.
2.) Multiple user registrations are prohibited.
3.) As a family-friendly board, we ask that you keep your language clean. If you wouldn't say it in front of your dear old Grandma, you probably don't want to say it here.
4.) Spamming, trolling, flaming, and personal attacks are prohibited. You can disagree with other members, even vehemently, but it must be done in a well-mannered form. Attack the argument, not the arguer.
It would appear that those rules, or portions thereof, which I highlighted were quickly forgotten when people felt their view was more important than anyone else's view. Aside from the topics getting away from firearms and civil liberties, there WERE personal attacks, there WAS flaming, and people WERE attacking the arguer rather than the argument.

Why does anyone think it will be any different on a new, adjunct site? Isn't the definition of insanity continuing to do the same thing while expecting a different result?

joab
May 17, 2004, 11:24 PM
I think there's a big difference between "Nuke all Muslim" threads and "WMD Found in Iraq". And to tell you the truth, although it got harsh at times, I can say that I learned some stuff from the religious debate. Several of the threads were definitely harsh and needed be closed, and some members deserved a good spanking. But I think the potential was definitely there to educate some good people who had some misconceptions. I have been trying to find the words to express this sentiment. But I don't think it matters much they have made up their minds and it's their forum. I think a very valuable aspect of THR's personality has been lost to PCness. Maybe it'll come back, maybe I'll come back. Time will tell.

Don't Tread
May 17, 2004, 11:55 PM
BTW, my nevermind in my previous post is because I was rephrasing my question and decided to erase that post, I am still interested in an answer to my earlier question

txgho1911
May 17, 2004, 11:59 PM
I edited my earlier post today with:
If you are including a joke. You may state as much. L&P seems to be very sober of late. If you joke and it is questioned or ridiculed then so be it. I did not start a thread for contention. It was intended to be informative and speculative on future finds and evidence.
If you don't have something to add except negative bickering then go away.

This note didn't work. Mods can delete the thread "Sarin IDD detonated".
May save a little space. I can agree with the changes. I'll miss some of the eye openers I have read in L&P.

I would have to request that links to the more contraversial subjects that THRers may have intrests in be allowed. high roaders will just have to refrain from negative bickering and other kind sympathies. Other possible avenues allready mentioned may be the way to go.
Another way could be. Spend the thousands to open and then maintain a site of your own. Sell some advertising and maybe add to your career. Present management does not want to expend energy or funds on the hotest subject content in my life time. Thousands of corners have been turned throughout most of the states. RKBA could be found as full compliance of the 2nd Amd in my lifetime. People in this world are at WAR with my country and I GET IT.

Kaylee
May 18, 2004, 01:04 AM
1. Oleg has made his call on L&P:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82260

2. A general "current affairs/anything goes" forum has been proposed in the past, but the consensus in staff was that it was not the best interests of the forum.

3. The call is made.

-K

If you enjoyed reading about "Okay, I'll pose my question here, then." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!