Cops gun would not go off.

[litman252]

Officer who was stabbed pulled trigger 6 times

(Published Tuesday, May 18, 2004 10:37:36 AM CDT)

By Sid Schwartz/Gazette Staff


Andrew Smith


Justyn Fischer

Original story, http://gazetteextra.com/officerstabbed051804.asp

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Janesville police officer Andrew Smith pulled the trigger on his pistol a half dozen times, but it never fired while he fought with the man who eventually stabbed him in the neck, according to court documents.

Justyn P. Fischer, 28, of 624 Liberty Ave., Beloit, was charged Monday with attempted murder while armed as a habitual criminal. If convicted, he faces a maximum of 71 years in prison.

Police on Monday examined and test fired Smith's .40-caliber Smith & Wesson Sigma semiautomatic pistol.

"The weapon was found to be operating properly," Police Chief George Brunner said. "There were no problems with firing the weapon during the test. The department is continuing to review the situation."

After his arrest, Fischer told investigators he grabbed the barrel of Smith's weapon during their struggle.

John Goepfert, owner of Goepfert's Purchasing House, 1901 Holiday Drive, Janesville, said Smith's gun probably wouldn't fire because Fischer somehow interfered with the weapon's action.

It that's true, the gun's trigger would have remained back and ineffectual after Smith's first attempt to shoot. The trigger would not have reset unless Smith slid the action, Goepfert said.

Every semiautomatic pistol ever made-not just the model used by Janesville police-is susceptible to misfires if its action is interfered with while the trigger is pulled, Goepfert said.

Old-fashioned revolvers are even more susceptible, he said.

"Each firearm design has a weak spot," Goepfert said.

Smith's struggle with Fischer started after Smith was dispatched at 3:51 a.m. Thursday for a report of a vehicle break-in in progress in the 3200 block of Turnberrry Drive on Janesville's far south side.

Fischer later told investigators that a friend had told him about a yellow pickup truck on that street that had a nice stereo system. While in the truck trying to steal the stereo, Fischer saw what he believed was a police officer approaching, so he ran, according to the complaint.

Smith said he chased the suspect through backyards for about a block before tackling him. The two men were wrestling on the ground when Smith was struck in the forehead, causing him to see stars, according to the criminal complaint.

Smith could see the man holding something in his hand, and Smith feared for his life, according to the complaint.

The officer pulled his pistol from its holster, "pushed it towards the subject's midsection and pulled the trigger," but the gun did not go off, the complaint reads.

Smith pulled the trigger twice more without the gun firing before he saw what looked like a shiny screwdriver in the man's right hand.

He pulled the trigger three more times, but the gun still would not fire, according to the complaint.

That's when Smith felt a "strong blow" to his right jaw, and he realized he'd been stabbed with the screwdriver, according to the complaint.

The blade of the screwdriver poked the chain for Smith's whistle and the collar of his uniform an inch deep into his flesh, according to the complaint.

After he was stabbed in the head three or four more times, Smith rolled onto his side to cover his firearm, and the suspect fled.

Smith later was treated and released at Mercy Hospital in Janesville.

Police surrounded the area, but the suspect escaped.

About a half hour later, a car was stolen from outside a home on O'Leary Road about 18 miles west of where Smith was stabbed. The car, which Fischer is accused of stealing, later was found in Beloit, according to Rock County Sheriff's Department reports.

While police searched for Fischer later Thursday, they spoke with a friend of his in Clinton. The friend said Fischer had been calling him on a cell phone, which police traced as being owned by Suzanne A. Bickle, 24, of 13152 Linden Ave., Janesville.

Police executed a search warrant at Bickle's home at 8 p.m. Thursday and arrested Fischer.

Bickle was charged Monday with harboring or aiding a felon. She told police she had driven to Beloit on Thursday morning and given Fischer a ride back to her Janesville home.

Fischer had told her he'd "had a physical conflict with a police officer," and she let him stay at her home while she went to work at a Janesville restaurant, according to the complaint.

In court Monday, Fischer was ordered held in the Rock County Jail on a $50,000 cash bond. He is due in court next at 1 p.m. Monday.

Bickle was released on a signature bond. She is due in court next at 1 p.m. Wednesday.

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What do ya think???

[tc300mag1]

I know it will come up so i might as well say it why the hell was the cop using a sigma? Granted not saying its the guns fault since he just kept pulling the trigger but still :banghead:

[Plinkerton]

That's crazy. My only thought was that when he grabbed the barrel, it put the gun out of battery (that's the right word, right?) But, it seems that issue was addressed in that the trigger would not reset. And being the complete opposite of a gun expert :D I have no idea what could have happened.

At least the cop was okay.

[Old Fuff]

There are a number of reasons the S&W Sigma might not have fired ...

But there is no good reason the officer shouldn't have been carrying a back-up ... just in case what happened did.

He is lucky to be alive.

[Standing Wolf]

If convicted, he faces a maximum of 71 years in prison.

He'll be back on the streets in five.

[natedog]

Another shining example of why a backup gun is a good idea.

[BWC]

Possibly "pushing the weapon towards...the midsection" might have actually put the front of the weapon up against the perp, the pressure holding it (slightly) out of battery, and not allowing it to fire ?

Just my $.02.......

[pauli]

anybody happen to have a sigma and a perp handy?

[BluesBear]

If convicted, he faces a maximum of 71 years in prison. The minimum should be at least 70 years. But somehow I doubt it is.

I wish the reposters would give us a reasonable number, such as the Minimum number of years he must serve. 71 years is just a feel good number so most clueless citizens will think the system works.

[stevelyn]

My guess also is that muzzle contact with the perp pushed the slide out of battery and failed to fire due to trigger not resetting. The wrestling match on the ground prevented the officer from being able to do an effective two-handed FTF drill.

[sturmruger]

After reading the story My first guess would be that the gun was out of battery.

I am curious to know why the Janesvill PD is still using Sigmas? My Dad has a Sigma in 9mm that is a decent gun for the money, but you would think they could spend a little more and get themselves some better guns. My vote would be for an XD or maybe a Glock. My expierence with the Sigma is they have allor more recoil then most of the other polymer guns I have fired. I don't remember if the Sigma is a striker fired, or DAO gun. If it was a DAO you would think as soon as it was not contacting the bad guy's body he would have been able make the gun fire. If it is a striker fired gun her would have had to done a FTF drill which in most cases does require two hands.

[TarpleyG]

TAP, RACK, BANG!!!

Although, the officer may not have had the time or space to do that.

GT

[chrisb507]

From the article: "Every semiautomatic pistol ever made-not just the model used by Janesville police-is susceptible to misfires if its action is interfered with while the trigger is pulled, Goepfert said.

Old-fashioned revolvers are even more susceptible, he said."

Really? Are they? Why are revolvers more susceptible? (I really have no idea...)

[Plinkerton]

Chris, my thoughts were the same as yours. Why would a revolver be more susceptible...

The only thing I could come up with is that they are saying, "if its action is interfered with while the trigger is pulled". Maybe, because on a revolver, you have a "big" cylinder, they could just grab it and keep it from rotating to the next shot?

I really have no idea. Anyone more knowledgeable than us know why?

I do know that revolvers are capable of being pressed HARD into a person, and multiple shots can be fired. There is no chance of it going out of battery.

I'm stumped why they would be more problematic...

[sturmruger]

Chris are you using a little sarcasm with your statement or would you like me to explain the how easy it is to stop a revolver fired double action.??

[Plinkerton]

Explain it to me. The things I could think of are grabbing the cylinder, or grabbing the hammer. THough, that wouldn't seem possible on an enclosed hammer.

[Henry Bowman]

Wheel guns (revolvers) are more susceptable to this specific problem in that if you grab the cylinder tightly enough, it will not rotate. A DA revolver must rotate BEFORE it will fire.

Any chance that the cop was carrying (intentionally or unintentionally) with the chamber empty? There are some DA pistols that will recock the striker each time the trigger is pulled even w/o cycling the slide. However, if the chamber is empty, only racking the slide will fill it.

[sturmruger]

Plinkerton you are 100% correct in your assumption. If someone is trying to pull the trigger on a double action revolver it is impossible to pull the trigger if someone is holding on to the cylinder. Even a child could stop you from shooting a double action revolver by holding the cylinder. DO NOT TRY THIS IF THE REVOLVER IS COCKED it will not work you will get shot. If the gun is cocked your best bet is to get something between the hammer and the frame.

[blfuller]

I suppose if the BG had his hand around the cylinder on a revolver and grasping it very tightly it would be very difficult to squeeze the trigger hard enough to get the cylinder to turn. I'll have to give it a try.

There are devices available that attach to the pistol frame that support a plate which goes in front of the muzzle. So when the muzzle is pushed up against a soft object the slide will not go out of battery and have the disconnect do what it suppose to. I have seen them on SIG pistols but I cannot remember who made them. They also had a laser built into them.

[XD40EZO]

...oh man good thing I didn't settle for and sigma.

[BluesBear]

We were taught that if someone has grabed our revolver and the cylinder wouldn't turn to pull hard on the trigger. Push the gun toward the assailant and then twist the revolver back and forth. As soon as the grip was relaxed there would then be a loud boom usually followed by the assailant relaxing his grip even more.

The other way is to pull hard on the trigger while pulling the hammer at the same time. You can get a fair amount of leverage that way.

No matter what you keep jabbing the assailant with the muzzle.

[sturmruger]

XD40EZO if you do have a XD I would say you are a whole lot better off then settleing for a Simga.

[MrAcheson]

To take another tack, its also possible the cop hadn't done proper maintenance on his gun. If the primers on his carry ammo went bad because of prolonged exposure to sweat or cleaning compounds, then he would also be up a creek. Fresh ammo at the lab would have worked fine though. I've known more than a few cops that never changed their ammo or cleaned their guns unfortunately.

[chrisb507]

Ah, OK, that makes sense (thanks, Sturm, and no sarcasm intended, I'm just a little slow.... :D) By holding the cylinder, you can keep it from turning and firing.

I guess the article implied there was a way to "knock" a revolver out of battery...it seems you would need to apply constant pressure to the cylinder to keep it from firing, but one well-placed knock and a semi can be rendered unfireable.

[Tropical Z]

Id vote for the "he probably didnt have a round chambered" theory.A lot of LEO's are really clueless about the tool they expect to protect their life.If there had been a round chambered, doesnt a Sigma have second strike capability?

[BluesBear]

The Sigma is a Safe-Action pistol just like a Glock (in fact S&W was found guilty of infringing on the Glock patents) so it doesn't have second strike capability.

[orangeninja]

"But there is no good reason the officer shouldn't have been carrying a back-up ... just in case what happened did."


I got news for you, a lot of Dept.'s will not allow their Officers to carry a backup weapon....Known in political circles as a "throw down gun". My Dept. is one example.

Secondly, a Dept. can buy a Glock 17 for under $300.00 pretty easily. All it takes is Dept. letter head. My guess is that this was the Officers personal weapon.

Brinks Armored in Dallas would not allow Sigmas to be carried due to failures in the weapon. Same with a few other Private Security Companies.


Sigma=dead good guys. I don't care how inexpensive the gun is or how accurate, or how cool....RELIABILITY IS #1 and always MUST BE in a defensive fire arm.

[Treylis]

I got news for you, a lot of Dept.'s will not allow their Officers to carry a backup weapon....Known in political circles as a "throw down gun". My Dept. is one example.

What's the reason behind that idiotic policy?

[La Pistoletta]

Should've had a .357 snubbie for backup.

[orangeninja]

"I got news for you, a lot of Dept.'s will not allow their Officers to carry a backup weapon....Known in political circles as a "throw down gun".

One word = LIABILITY....my Dept. is paranoid about the liability involved in having a gun that is not theirs in the mix.

Some Departments also have that policy to prevent the "temptation" that an Officer might face if involved in a shooting with an unarmed person. He might decide to "arm" the now deceased perp.....no kidding....I've heard that used before.

[Plinkerton]

He might decide to "arm" the now deceased perp.....no kidding....I've heard that used before.

That seems to happen in movies all the time... :p

[another okie]

I think the "trigger reset" comment in the original article is probably a red herring. The article doesn't actually say the trigger was reset, just makes a general comment about reset.

I doubt if it reset and then wouldn't fire again. Much more likely that it was out of battery due to either being pushed into the bad guy or by the bad guy grabbing it.

[litman252]

Well guys, Sigmas are fresh from the Dept. I don't know how long they have had them, around 1 year i think???? They replaced the rugers, they also just got the Mod. 94 30-30's replaced on the swat team :scrutiny: I don't know about the leagal part of a backup, but I'm sure he wanted one at that time.
Best part was the swat team, they decided not to mess around:D .
Tony

[sturmruger]

If he had a Ruger he could have kept pulling the trigger until the slide was back in battery then we would have a dead bad guy.


I hope the Janesville PD SWAT got the 94s with the black stocks. Everyone knows that SWAT has to be all black!! What kind of amatures do they have over in the JPD.:D

[Coronach]

What's the reason behind that idiotic policy?Its the same general logic behind the AWB and most 'sensible' gun legislation. Political leaders make dumb feel-good laws, and they put pressure on their underlings in police departments to make dumb, feel-good policies.

I have always liked the 'throw down' argument. It is idiocy given verbal form.

"Yeah sarge, he had this S&W 640...yeah...huh? Whaddaya mean the S/N is recorded as belonging to me by the Ordnance Unit? Dang...he musta burglarized my house, too!"

:rolleyes:

Mike

[Big_R]

Just out of curiosity, do Sigmas have a magazine disconnect? Maybe the perp managed to release the magazine?

Ryan

[Grump]

Sounds like we are all assuming that something happened after the first trigger pull.

With the disconnector activated, I believe that your trigger return spring continues to work and the stiker never falls.

That's why I like the retention position for firing at arms-length distance. I'm getting well-trained to not poke my opponent's gut with my sidearm.

[SAG0282]

All that officer has to do is replace "ma" with "sauer" and he's good to go. :)

[strambo]

The root of the problem is that the officer thought he had to fight the perp with his gun only. A fight is a fight, weapons are just accessories. Once his gun FTF for whatever reason, while wrestling there isn't time to diagnose it, or probably grab a backup. His Sigma became a club, it's club vs screw driver. Take the opponent out by any means necessary, don't fixate on trying to get one particular type of weapon working. Gouge an eye, rip off an ear, smack a temple with your new Sigma-club...but keep fighting the threat! :eek:

[AngryBassets]

I'm pretty sure my Glock 23 would have gone off. If not, then the odds of my 27 failing during the same incident are even more slim.

I am glad he's gonna be ok, but CARRY A BACK UP GUN!!!

[BluesBear]

When you're wrestling, on the ground, drawing a back-up gun is not always possible.


As for many departments disallowing the use of a BUG because it could be used as a BUG as a "throw-down" is severely flawed logic. Most departments require the officer to document what weapon(s) they will be carrying off-duty/BUG.

[Roadkill Coyote]

My agency used to have a policy that classified all backups as "throwdowns". Fortunately the current Sheriff, god bless 'im, changed it. But, that was the policy for many years before he did. So shortly after the change, a buddy and I were in the squadroom discussing guns, when another Deputy walks up and asks for our advice. But the only place she's worked is here, she's not a gun enthusiast, and the entire time that was the terminology used in the policy manual. So with a completely straight face she asked "hey, can you guys help me pick out a throwdown?"

It took quite a while before either of us could stop laughing long enough to even explain it to her.

[MK11]

At that range and speed, some good empty hands techniques might be even more important than a backup gun.

[deezulsmoke]

Tactical folder, flashlight, finger to the eye, etc.. BUT when you are panicking and you think that you are going to die, sometimes you can only think that you must respond to deadly force (perceived or not) with deadly force. I am sure at the time that the only thing the officer was focusing on was being killed and trying to respond with deadly force. From what I read here, we can all armchair quarterback this to death, but I think we all know how you can get tunnel vision and not think when under deadly pressure. Sounds to me like the whistle chain saved his life. He probably would not have had time to tap rack bang since the other hand was busy keeping the BG from stabbing him. He may have been able to toss the weapon and pull a backup weapon of some kind, but I am sure that all he could see was that screwdriver heading for his face. How may times have witnesses or victims only been able to describe the "big black gun" and never the physical of the perp?

Deezul

[ny32182]

This situation is exactly why I will not carry a gun that doesn't have second strike capability.

[Coronach]

Well, second strike capability is nice, but its not a panacea. For instance, you can bang on a dud round all day, it ain't gonna go off.

Mike

[Model520Fan]

This discussion is far too constructive. To add a little spirit, it should be posted on the revolver forum.

Auto: Click, Tap, Rack, Bang.
Wheelgun: Click, Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang.

[firearms_instructor]

My NRA Training Counselor (who is also the chief RO for a local municipal PD) told us a story about a detective who showed up at the dept range and tried to fire his revolver. Every shot misfired, and the RO examined gun and ammo - every primer was properly dented, and the ammo looked brand new. So the RO commented that the ammo looked brand-new, and the detective mentioned that it was several years old, but HE KEPT HIS AMMO CLEAN WITH WD-40...

Good thing for the detective that he wasn't trying to defend himself with said ammo!

I also know a cop who owned a new, unfired HK-93 and discolored the plastic on the forearm by cleaning it with WD-40... ouch...

[Grump]

So, uh, have any of us actually tested these many theories?

Reminds me of the ancient Greeks who wasted half a day arguing about how many teeth were in the mouth of a horse. Not one would step outside and actually look in a horse's mouth. :rolleyes: :neener:

[Dienekes]

Bluesbear: Interesting technique to break the gun loose from a BG's grip, and one that sounds simple and forceful enough to actually work. I like it...

I don't see enough info in the article to really establish what might have actually happened; typical for a media account of a hairy event.

In any event, the kind of thing that nightmares are made of.