Dura-Coat -vs- KG Gun Kote ??


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nero45acp
May 19, 2004, 01:02 PM
I have a Parkerized Colt 1911A1 that I'm thinking about having refinished. What I would like to do is have it refinished in that greenish tint that old parkerized guns had when left in cosomoline for a long time. I was wondering if that color could be duplicated using Dura-Coat or KG Gun-Kote? Is the Dura-Coat and Gun-Kote a more durable finish than a parkerized finish? Will Dura-Coat or Gun-Kote obscure or fill in the lettering on my Colt's slide (don't want that)? Of the two, which would you'll recommend.
Finally there is a company named Craftguard that says they can parkerize guns in that OD/olive green tint. Anyone have any experience using them? Thank you.


nero

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CCR
May 21, 2004, 06:57 PM
If you are looking for more of a OD green the KG Gunkote is the one . Both are great but Duracoats greens are not too much like the green parkerized ones. Your Colt is already parerized which is a great base coat for the KG. The Gunkote will enhance the corrosion protection of your gun. Here is a pic of KG Gunkote OD green:) http://www.ccr-refinishing.com/pics/gsample7.jpg

Joey2
May 24, 2004, 10:29 PM
Every gun that I own that will fit in the oven is Gun-Kote'd. Been like that for 4 yrs. with no regrets.

Rocko
May 25, 2004, 08:46 AM
Actually, I've accidentally found out that a good match to the green-tinted park is the grey gunkote, overbaked. The hotter and longer you bake the finish, the more durable it is supposed to be - however, KG warns that more and longer heat can cause discoloration of the finish. In the case of the grey, I found that the discoloration is pretty much the look you are going for, I think. I have a .22 subcal upper for my m11/9 that I did like this - I'll take pics later tonight when I get home.

I also did some things in the OD gunkote - I believe that is much more "green" than you are really looking for. I haven't used duracoat, but a couple of folks "in the know" seem to prefer gunkote for metal parts, and duracoat for plastic (furniture and such), since duracoat doesn't require baking. FWIW, according to Mark Graham at ARS, Duracoat is simply Sherwin Williams Industrial epoxy paint repackaged (and marked up several times, most likely). Do a search for "duracoat" from the username "gunplumber" at http://www.falfiles.com, and I believe he even posted the equivalent SW product codes. In fact, I think it came up in another "gunkote vs. duracoat" thread there.

Rocko

Rocko
May 25, 2004, 05:08 PM
Here's the satin grey gunkote overbaked:

http://www.rock-stars.org/subcal.jpg

As you can hopefully see in the picture, it has got a slight green tint which looks like the vintage park (at least, to me...) that I think you are looking for. Not as obvious as straight OD green, which is here (picture unfortunately a bit dark):

http://www.rock-stars.org/cz52_9.jpg

DeltaGunner
May 17, 2007, 03:22 AM
I am not swearing to any of this being fact, but it is my opinion. You can draw your own. Do a web search for "duracoat" It comes up as a company that makes industrial paint finishes for high wear applications.
As for Sherwin Williams they have the same type of industrial finishes. I have literally sprayed hundreds of gallons of this stuff. On concrete and steel. It's tuff stuff. I have worked in the iron workers trade for a long time, I have used it for my shop floors, to truck trailers, custom truck beds and pipe thats headed for under ground burial and many more applications. the stuff will litterally stick to dirt. I've thrown coarse sand over stair treads and sprayed over it and when the stuff sets up it makes a no slip surface that lasts for years. A local company here uses it for finishing log trailers. They dont do any prime or prep work they just mix 10 gallons and spray it. It seems to gain gloss with the hardener when they use it. They do something else I would never do (do to the fact I don't want to be part of a big bang).... They thin it with gasoline. Now that's just crazy.
Anyway after all that jibberish, I have no proof to tie any of these products together. The name Duracoat on the two paint companies, seems to me the big industrial paint company might have a trade mark issue with the other if there were not some behind the seen brother hood of the two.
Product repackaging is nothing new.
THE REAL QUESTION WAS can the green be reproduced to match the color of aged cosmoline induced green? Yes it can. In todays computorized world, if there is a custom paint mixer in your area, they can scan your gun color and the computor will tell them just what to add to the type of paint you are using to reproduce it. Very popular in repainting crunched car parts to match the faded paint on a wrecked auto.
I have custom built trailers then had the paint colored to match the pulling vehicle with exact results by taking a fuel cover door or some other small part in and using it for the sample.

BB93YJ
May 21, 2007, 01:26 AM
I've used GunKote on my firearms for over twenty years, good stuff, but it sure stinks up the kitchen. First heard about it when I was coating the headers on my Kawasaki Z1R-T's with Kal Guard Header Kote back in 1981. KalGuard is the original company that produced Gun Kote.

Started using this: http://www.johnnorrellarms.com/molyresin_about.asp
last year. Great stuff, lot easier on the nostrils when you're cooking it in the wife's oven. The Army uses it to refinish their M16's, if that tells you anything.

Lots of color choices.

Can apply right over a degreased park finish. Matter of fact, that's a preferred base to apply the finish over.

I have no affiliation with this company, I've just had really good results with it. My favorite Springfield MilSpec's got this finish in the flat grey black and it's holding up great to about a years worth of use couple thousand rounds, and several hundred monthly practice draws from a kydex holster and daily carry. Still looks as good as when I first applied it.

Somewhere on their website I believe they talk about the greenish tint a parked finish takes after it's sat in cosmoline for a while, and that they sell a duplicate finish.

Mac's
May 23, 2007, 06:14 PM
Yes, the gray Gunkote can be over-heated to produce the greenish tint but to get an even color over all of the parts, you'll need an oven with a blower in it. It's much easier to mix gray and od green or even buy it mixed from KG Industries. For the do-it-your-selfer's: Use caution when applying and/or curing Gunkote. The application vapors are bad news but the curing vapors are worse. If you use the same oven that you'll be cooking tonights pizza in, be sure to clean it out first. The curing vapors will transfer solids to the oven rack and sides, which can then be transferred to the pizza, etc.
Keep yer powder dry, Mac
Tuff-Gun Finishes. The Name Says It All
Mac's Shootin' Irons
http://www.shootiniron.com

Plink
May 23, 2007, 06:33 PM
I have used various KG product on guns and motorcycles since the 80's myself. I was never impressed with them. In the last couple years I've been using Duracoat and it seems to be much more durable so far. The finish is thinner also, so it's less likely to obscure markings. They have about a bazillion colors. You might take a look to see if any suit your purposes.

The parkerizing on your gun will make a perfect base for either coating. Just be sure to degrease it very thoroughly. Parkerizing has a lot of pores that oil and grease can soak into.

DnPRK
May 23, 2007, 10:44 PM
I like the KG product because it goes on thin and cures hard.

RexDart
May 25, 2007, 02:41 PM
If you use the same oven that you'll be cooking tonights pizza in, be sure to clean it out first.

For the sake of marital harmony, can you explain what it takes to thoroughly purge an oven after it's been used for GunKote curing?

I was planning just to hit the "self-clean" cycle, and turn on every fan I can.

Mac's
May 25, 2007, 05:48 PM
First, if you use the kitchen oven more than once for curing the finish (Any finish), I would make my own racks specifically for that purpose. (Or buy some used ones at an appliance scrap yard) Just tag them and keep them in your shop. You can aslo modify them with little shelves, racks, etc. and not have to worry about explaining that "it can be fixed".
To clean the oven, just wiping it out with glass cleaner, etc. and then running the self clean cycle should be fine. The curing residue will not stick well on a CLEAN oven and should wipe right off. Now, if your oven looks like mine used to in my bachelor days, it'll be more work. You'll have to really clean it.
The curing oven in my shop is black from the residue. It's pretty thick and caked on in the spots that I can't easily wipe off. Granted, it's an industrial job the size of a full sized fridge and gets used a lot but it shows pretty clearly that the curing vapors do deposit residue during curing. Any of that stuff at all on my Grand Daughters pizza is too much!
While curing, be sure to use plenty of ventilation. Put fans in the kitchen windows to blow air out so it'll pull it in from the rest of the house. It'll help to preserve the harmony in the house. That stuff stinks but the strange thing about is that after you breath it for a while, the smell goes away. Brain damage is imminent!
Keep yer powder dry, Mac.
Tuff-Gun Finishes. The Name Says It All
Mac's Shootin' Irons
http://www.shootiniron.com

aubie515
May 25, 2007, 05:59 PM
I would disagree with those that say Duracoat is more durable compared to the thermal cured products such as KG Gunkote and Norrells. An air cured product won't be as durable as one that is thermal cured in an oven. I don't care how many gallons you've used or drank.

I would also diagree with the person that says Norrell's offers a lot of color options.

Duracoat offers the most colors and camo patterns. People like Duracoat because there is not surface prep such as sand blasting if it's a blued finish. Duracoat does not require baking in order to cure. Duracoat does require 4 weeks or more to fully cure and that is a huge disadvantage for me.

I just started using KG and must say I like it better compared to Norrells. Norrells seems more messy when applying the product on the parts. I also noticed that Norrells smells a lot worst when you bake it compared to KG.

RogersPrecision
May 25, 2007, 11:20 PM
"My favorite Springfield MilSpec's got this finish in the flat grey black and it's holding up great to about a years worth of use couple thousand rounds, and several hundred monthly practice draws from a kydex holster and daily carry. Still looks as good as when I first applied it."

I read something like this and I've got to wonder.
:confused:
I've used KG Gunkote, Norrel's Moly-Resin, Cera-Coat and Dura-Coat. I professionally apply the stuff to properly prepared pistols, manganese phosphated to enhance performance whenever possible, and my results are substantially different.
I'm also familiar with other companies work such as Black-T, CobraCoat and BearCoat.
In my experience, some wear is noted after only 100 presentations from a Kydex holster.
I truly like these finishes. Some of my top-end guns wear them. But in my experience, they are at best 5 or 6 times as durable as a good hot blue.
Someone here seems to be way off base.
I'm not trying to cast doubt on anyone's credibility, but I still got to wonder.
:confused:

Alias56
August 6, 2008, 12:10 PM
Nero, CCRm Joey2, BB93YJ and others,

Man, y,all made my day with your endorcements
of these products as I was dreading having to send
my frames and parts off to be refinished.
My question is, CCR, you said that a Park'd finish such as on
my Springers would be a good base coat whereas Gun-Kote
alludes to the fact that surfaces must be clean. When they
say clean do they reccomend metals stripped down to white or can I
apply over a clean existing factory park finish. Also, I want a dull matt
grey result. Please say it's so.

Alias

Mac's
August 6, 2008, 01:34 PM
There are many firearms finishes on the market and a few of them are actually good. Some, like duracoat may be good (I refuse to use it!) but can't be used for internal mechanisms because they're too thick and tend to "ball up" instead of burnishing. Gunkote will burnish and can be used on internal close tolerance moving parts.

Gunkote must be applied to a properly prepared surface for it to bond well and be durable. Yes, it must be clean but the best surface for it to be applied on is fresh Parkerizing. Now for the bad news!

Parkerizing gets it's durabilty because of it's "sponge like" surface. Freshly Parkerized metal is soaked in oil. That's part of the normal Parkerizing process. The oil soaks into the "spongy" surface and is retained there but without the surface feeling oily.

For any finish to properly bond, the metal must be absolutely clean. Getting all of the oil and other contaminants out of an "old or used" Parkerized surface will be difficult to say the least. That's why most re-finishing shops, us included, will not apply a finish over any Parkerizing unless it's Parkerizing that we've just applied. The chance of contaminants still being in the surface and ruining the new finish job is just to great.

Now having said all of that, I have to add that all is not lost. If you're doing it yourself, you can try cleaning "old" Parkerizing and then applying a spray on finish. Clean it by soaking the parts in Acetone overnite. Then boil it in soapy water and then soak it in Acetone again. If you have access to a sonic cleaner, add that step. Cooking the metal parts in an oven at 300 degrees for an hour or so will show you any remaining oily spots. A final rinse in Acetone, dry it, warm it and apply the finish.

Regarding: "Also, I want a dull matt grey result. Please say it's so". Gunkote matte Charcoal sounds like what you're looking for. Keep yer powder dry, Mac.
Tuff-Gun Finishes. The Name Says It All
Mac's Shootin' Irons
http://www.shootiniron.com

RogersPrecision
August 6, 2008, 02:54 PM
Mac,
Did you read my post above? Concerning wear?
It's an old post but my experiences have remained consistent.
Consider if you will, a 5" 1911 carried in a Kydex inside the waistband holster at the 4 o'clock position. Steel frame and slide, blasted with fresh 120 grit Aluminum Oxide, manganese phosphated and coated with GunKote Matte Black applied with a double action airbrush and a .5mm auto touch up gun. Oven cured in a temperature verified oven per manufacturer specifications. Kydex is shiny side in, holster will retain the pistol when inverted. Secure retention, but no struggle to draw and reholster.
Can you very roughly estimate the number of presentations before the end of the slide would show wear to base metal?
I'll stick with my earlier approximation. :)
One thing I've learned over the years is that wear will and can occur even without much in and out. In my case it's most evident when 4-wheelin' in my '74 Chevy with my 1911 carried IWB. Each 'bump' shifts the gun ever so slightly in its holster. Add in airborn particulates, and you have a version of the Tabor Abrasion Test occuring with every tankful of gas. :cool:
The 'new, hi-tech' PVD finishes such as those offered by IonBond may provide a partial solution. My understanding is that they provide only minimal corrosion protection. PVD over hard chrome should help.
The melonite/tenifer finishes require temperatures that will have a metallurgical effect on modern gun steels.
Currently I'm preferring Cerakote applied over manganese phosphate. I find it to be noticeably more abrasion and chip resistant than the GK products but significantly more difficult to properly apply.
Long post.....work is calling. I'd enjoy a reasonable discussion on this subject.
More later, if indicated.
:)

Mac's
August 6, 2008, 10:54 PM
Rogers Precsion...I wasn't arguing with you! My post didn't concern wear at all, only the application of the Gunkote finish.

Regarding wear: I don't know the number of presentations before slide leading edge wear begins to show but I can't and wont disagree with your findings. Much depends on the type of holster used. However, I have found that (under Gunkote 2400 Molly Series) Zinc Phospate Parkerizing gives a better base resulting in improved adhesion versus Manganese Parkerizing. But even 100% perfect adhesion will not prevent holster wear.

I've been using Gunkote Molly base resin for close to thirty years now and my application technique is markedly different from the manufacturer instructions. My application temps for both the metal and the Gunkote vary, depending on the metal and which coat is being applied. The spray pressures vary depending on which coat is being applied. The curing is done in five stages. All temperatures and times are computer controlled.

I'm reasonably sure that there are better finishes available...for specific requirements. Gunkote fits my requirements perfectly and those of our Customers. It's been around for a very long time and is still being used by quite a few militaries around the world. As such, it has a very extensively documented testing history. I have on two seperate occasions been asked if our finish using Gunkote will show any ill effects from the de-icers in aviation fuel. It's easy to find the answers to questions like these. Try finding that out with most of the other finishes on the market. Keep yer powder dry, Mac.
Tuff-Gun Finishes. The Name Says It All
Mac's Shootin' Irons
http://www.shootiniron.com

mtnmedic11
August 6, 2008, 11:20 PM
I've had good and bad run ins with spray ons. Like stated before application can be tricky, just follow the instructions and I find spraying the weapon clean and not dunking helps make sure to get that oil and residue off. The teflon moly seems to work well and also protect weapons. As far as covering up engravings or stamped characters...a heavy enough coat can start to fill them in. The weapons I own that I have put spray on "non-OEM" type finishes on them are all tools, and I use them as such. When it wears off, which it will with hard use, I refinish and reapply.

RogersPrecision
August 7, 2008, 11:09 AM
Mac,
I never thought you were arguing or even disagreeing. :)
I was just curious if your experiences were similar to mine.
Chuck

raz-0
August 7, 2008, 12:42 PM
I'm also familiar with other companies work such as Black-T, CobraCoat and BearCoat.
In my experience, some wear is noted after only 100 presentations from a Kydex holster.
I truly like these finishes. Some of my top-end guns wear them. But in my experience, they are at best 5 or 6 times as durable as a good hot blue.
Someone here seems to be way off base.


Well, I have gear that has these types of baked on finishes. The black-t wore off just like you said I'd probably put it at about 2x as good as decent parkerizing for waht it stood up to. On the other hand, I have a SA 1911 with armory coat, and it has lasted much longer than I ever expected given the use it has been put to. Over 10,000 rounds of live fire, and a couple years of dryfire practice with lots of draws and it just started to develop some dignified holster wear near the end of that.

So, even with similar products, results can apparantly vary.

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