Bhp?


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natedog
May 21, 2004, 02:56 AM
I've seen pictures and descriptions of the BHP and I like what I hear. Slim (for a double stack), accurate, good trigger, and the pistol looks really, really nice. I'd like to add it to my list of "possibilities" for a handgun (I've realized from this whole gun business that I'm a really fickle guy). Only problem is that my local shop never stocks them, and said that they'd only order one if I put money down on it. Anyone know of a gun shop in/around Kern County besides Second Amendmant Sports?

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bountyhunter
May 21, 2004, 01:58 PM
I'd recommend you shoot one before you buy. The one point I would disagree with on a new BHP asessment is your "good trigger" addenda. A new BHP has probably the worst single action trigger on earth. Often in the 7 - 9# pull weight range and very creepy and mushy. They can be improved (gunsmiths have been putting their kids through college for decades doing HP trigger jobs).

If the knothead at your gun shop won't stock them, you might want to order one off Gunsamerica and save some money. Make sure it is one of the kali legal models and you are good to go.

bountyhunter
May 21, 2004, 02:00 PM
"German cultural heritage is not that complex, actually. You drink a lot of beer, eat a lot of Sauerkraut and pork, and every fifty years you get the urge to kick the snot out of the French.", Marko Kloos A British buddy of mine often said about the Germans: they're nice people, but about every 30 or 40 years, they stroll through Europe and re-name all the countries "Germany".

P95Carry
May 21, 2004, 02:44 PM
If you can Nate ... consider lookin out for one of the earlier ones ... I haven't been overly impressed with the latest incarnation. Triggers are usually way better on early ones.

Actually, CDNN's latest flier has (Page 7) ... an FN HP-SFS MkIII showing .. it's the old style ..... in .40 and 9mm .... and a tag of $60.00??????????? can that be right????? They have new models (Belgian FN) showing for $340 D/A-S/A versions. Give em a call perhaps .... 1-800 588 9500 ...... be interested to see if that price is a typo!

In fact for shere value, even a FEG clone is worth a look .. depending on how hard you plan to run it.

MrAcheson
May 21, 2004, 03:03 PM
I'd agree with the triggers. Frankly while Browning and FN guns tend to have much better general fit and finish, the FEG guns seem to have better triggers. This once you take the magazine disconnect out of course. Before that its anybody's guess.

Zak Smith
May 21, 2004, 03:15 PM
The BHP's I've handled have very crisp triggers in the 5-6 lb range, from the factory./

Some work can shorten the reset and reduce the weight to about 4.5#.

-z

BHPshooter
May 21, 2004, 03:51 PM
Browning triggers don't have a ton of attention paid to them out-of-box lately, but to say they're the worst isn't very fair. For example, mine was very crisp but a tad heavy when new. I've got 2000 rounds through mine now, and the trigger is very nice.

Brownings seem to give themselves trigger jobs after about 500 rounds.

Go here for more info www.fnhipower.com and check out the forum.

Wes

bountyhunter
May 21, 2004, 05:04 PM
Browning triggers don't have a ton of attention paid to them out-of-box lately, but to say they're the worst isn't very fair. No, I think of all the allegedly "high quality" handguns (>$400) on earth that are SA only from the factory, the BHP on average would have the worst trigger. I am not including garbage guns, I am saying for the $750 that HP's sell for new these days, that puts them in a class where they are by far the worst SA triggers on the planet. IMO, it is inexcusable because it would not be that difficult to get them better from the factory, and for the money, they should be much better. Compared to a 1911, it's like Yugo versus Lexus.

For the record, my new HP (purchased in 2000) came with a 9# trigger (measured) that let off in three big "jerks" as the trigger was pulled and the sear face dragged across the hammer hook. I have never seen a worse SA trigger on any gun in my life.

RGO
May 21, 2004, 06:13 PM
Brownings seem to give themselves trigger jobs after about 500 rounds.

I agree. Mine has gotten more crisp and lighter after about 500 rounds. It was already good to begin with (after mag safety removal) but it was a tad heavy.

bountyhuner: FWIW, I've never handled a Hi Power with as bad a trigger as you describe. I do wish they came stock with better triggers, or at least no mag safety!

Bartholomew Roberts
May 21, 2004, 06:32 PM
Browning seems to have gone for some outrageously heavy single action trigger pulls in the 1998-2001 time frame. Some of the first FN-marked pistols share this in common as well (the ones with the fairly basic finish).

I've handled the later production FNs with the better rollmark and finish on them (2002-2003) and the trigger on those was quite nice. Heavier than I would have cared for; but very crisp and workable.

WonderNine
May 21, 2004, 06:52 PM
A new BHP has probably the worst single action trigger on earth. Often in the 7 - 9# pull weight range and very creepy and mushy.

I love fictional posts. More BHP's for me. ;)

JiminCA
May 21, 2004, 07:02 PM
The above posts about the guns giving themselves a trigger job after several hundred rounds are true in my experience. I have 3 HP's, and I'm always watching for a good deal on another.

If you leave the mag disconnect in, know this, it works much smoother with a parkerized mag than a blued one. The latest one I bought (a fixed sight practical) was perfectly awful with blued MecGar mags, but pretty OK with parked. The pad that rides on the mag has to slide on the mag as the trigger is actuated and it was pretty grabby on the polished blue mag.

bountyhunter
May 21, 2004, 08:59 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A new BHP has probably the worst single action trigger on earth. Often in the 7 - 9# pull weight range and very creepy and mushy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I love fictional posts. More BHP's for me. I then direct you to look up the last test report in Gun Test magazine when they did a BHP (maybe a couple of years back). Their "fiction" sounded just like my "fiction". I think their trigger broke at 8#, but that still sucks. And the terrible creep is a designed in feature: the sear has no relief cut from the factory.

If you had ever done a BHP trigger job, or knew anybody who had, you would know getting the creep out requires grinding down the height of the hammer hooks to .020 and adding a secondary relief cut on the sear face to reduce the distance the sear travels before the hammer falls.

Of course, the relief cut also reduces the amount of sear face rubbing on the hammer hook and BHP's are notorious for having their trigger jobs go in the tank after about 1000 round and developing hammer follow because the edge between the primary and secondary cut wore down and the sear could no longer capture the hammer face.

If I had a dollar for every post that started: "I just bought a used HP and when I shoot it the hammer stays forward...."

Sorry to interrupt the thread with a dose of reality. please continue with the love fest for a $700 gun with a $10 trigger.

bountyhunter
May 21, 2004, 09:06 PM
Browning seems to have gone for some outrageously heavy single action trigger pulls in the 1998-2001 time frame. YES, they did. And it was the result of a number of things.

1) Steep primary face cuts on the sears give a solid hammer "capture" but a horrible trigger pull. The sear has to deflect the hammer to the rear as it pulls across the hammer hook, so you are fighting the hammer spring.

2) Ridiculous springs. The stock hammer spring is supposed to be 32#. The one that came in my gun had to be at least 42#. Somewhere a 68 Chevy is missing a rear axle spring that went into my gun.

The heavy hammer springs were partly from '"Lawyer proofing". They installed heavy firing pin springs to prevent muzzle drop or inertia discharges, and so they needed more hammer spring to assure ignition. There are aftermarket spring kits available which will cure this, but HP hammer springs are a pain to change. I also calle Browning and they said changing the hammer spring voided their warranty on the gun (I did it anyway).

P95Carry
May 21, 2004, 09:09 PM
Somewhere a 68 Chevy is missing a rear axle spring that went into my gun. BH ... that's a classic! Bwhahaa! :D :D

Zak Smith
May 22, 2004, 02:06 AM
One need go no further than Ted Yost for the ne ultra plus BHP trigger job. It's durable, too.

-z

Andrew Wyatt
May 22, 2004, 02:50 AM
there's a fellow by the name of mike scales who might be able to set you up. I'll dig up his phone number and whatnot tomorrow.

Marshall
May 22, 2004, 03:15 AM
natedog,

Don't let this trigger thing bother you. I am BHP lover and dare say there is a better semi-auto combat pistol for the money that also has the looks and feel of a Hi-Power. Granted, they don't have the best trigger out of the box but, for $50 to $75 bucks you can get a nice trigger.

I see all kinds of semi-auto's out there that have all kinds of problems, from jamming, not ejecting, stove piping, to FTF's and many cost more than a Hi-power. I have trigger jobs done and have never had a problem or, any of those problems I listed above.

MarkIII's here cost $602.45, Standards cost $610.00 and Practical's cost $634.00, all with fixed sights and all NIB from a Browning gun dealer. Add a little more for a trigger job and buy it. You might want to shoot a few hundred rounds through it before you let them do the job.

Look at this practically. How many handguns do you try out the trigger on and it sucks compared to a single action 1911? Almost all. HK's, Sig's, CZ's, Smith's, Walther's, Bersa's, etc. Yea, I know they are double action triggers for the most part too. But, what the hell does it matter? A trigger is a trigger, period! On every gun, you squeeze a trigger, who cares what it's called? So, this deal about the worst single action trigger, what is that all about? People love Sig's here and pull a crappy trigger all day long. I believe most 1911 buyers spend at least that on a 1911 and then add all kinds of crap to make it a better gun or even make it work.

If you like the BHP's for the looks, feel, dependability, accuracy, name, history, etc; buy it and enjoy it. If you want a better a trigger, get one. After all, every time we all buy a gun, we spend another $300.00 on holsters, grips, sights and more for it. Big deal if a small amount is for a better trigger?

I'm fixing to spend around $75.00-$100.00 on my J frames trigger. The gunsmith is going to Polish and Radius it along with the hammer and make the double action better too. I think I am going to have him install a XS front NS Dot as well. Actually, the trigger's pretty damn good the way it is, I just want it and the hammer polished to look pretty and I like that radius feel.
:D

bountyhunter
May 24, 2004, 01:38 PM
Look at this practically. How many handguns do you try out the trigger on and it sucks compared to a single action 1911? Almost all. Maybe, but not all require an expensive cutting fixture to cut the sear face angles to get a decent trigger. Buy a Beretta 92FS: the trigger pull SA is not great stock, but all you have to do to fix it is install a 16# hammer spring and polish the sear face (polish, not cut) until it's shiny. It is a square flat face, it's a snap to polish with a fine stone. You end up with a 8# DA pull and a 3# SA pull with no creep for about $3 and 20 minutes time invested.

Same is true for the SW wheelguns: I have done many trigger jobs on them (including the six I own). Same story: no facing of the sears required, no cutting jigs... just polish the right surfaces and install reduced power springs. 7# DA pull, 2# SA pull is easily obtained with a dead smooth pull.

The two children of John Moses Browning have a sear/trigger design that has a long distance of motion across the hammer hook by the sear face. This makes a trigger with terrible creep. The 1911 "cured" this by calling out as standard spec a sear with a secondary (relief) cut on it to reduce pull distance and sharpen the break. Check the Kuhnhausen 1911AI manual and see what I mean: the piece part drawing for the commercial sear shows the cut already there. They come from the factory with it, which is why most 1911's have a decent SA trigger.

Which leaves us at the other JMB child: the BHP. It still uses a sear with a single flat face, and suffers the same long dragging trigger pull with creep that the 1911 originally suffered from. Why doesn't Browning (actually, FN) get with the program and fix the sear? Good question. probably because all the customers keep buying it the way it is and paying gunsmiths to finish the work FN should have done before sending the gun out. Bottom line: as I recommended, shoot a new HP (or at least pull the trigger) before you buy one. And if you don't like it, add at least another $100 to the price for getting the standard BHP trigger job (26# hammer spring, sear/hammer grind) that it will take to fix it.

Marshall
May 24, 2004, 10:33 PM
Bounty Hunter,

That's true, good point.


standard BHP trigger job (26# hammer spring, sear/hammer grind) that it will take to fix it.

$100.00 Is that what you find in your area gunsmiths are charging? Seems High?



just polish the right surfaces and install reduced power springs. 7# DA pull, 2# SA pull is easily obtained with a dead smooth pull.

All S&W revolvers the same? I have a J Frame new model 60, what are the right areas to polish and what do you suggest to do it with? I'll try doing it myself if you can tell me the right way.

JohnBT
May 25, 2004, 08:53 AM
"Often in the 7 - 9# pull weight range and very creepy and mushy."

I bought a new basic model in 2001. Removing the disconnect got rid of almost all the creep. That and a little judicious polishing on everything except the sear & hammer cuts took the pull down from about 8 pounds to about 6. I say about because I don't remember the details - those dern Lyman digitals are too exact with their fraction of an ounce measurements. :)

What's wrong with a pretty clean 6# trigger if you're strong and healthy?

I was perfectly happy shooting my Marlin Mountie for 40 years until I bought a Lyman digital gauge and found out I had a 6# trigger. I don't recall the trigger being too heavy even when I was 13.

My biggest trigger problem these days is going from a 2# trigger on something like a Single Six or a Cooper to a 1.5 ounce Jewell.

John

rauchman
May 25, 2004, 10:52 AM
I'd have to agree with the concensus here. Out of the box, the BHP trigger stinks. I picked up a 2002 BHP and within 6 months, traded it for a Springfield Loaded 1911...this being my first and so far only 1911. Maybe it's me, well of course it has to be me, but I found the grip too small. I have medium sized hands and the gun just seemed to float around in my grip while shooting it. Don't get me wrong. I've read about some custom BHP's that sound really interesting and that I would probably really enjoy. Having said that, why can't they just make the gun that good out of the box. I know lots of folks do it, but I don't want to be bothered with having to take a gun to a smith to get a good trigger, reliability, etc. Do it at the factory and get it right the first time. For a full size gun, it must be easily concealable though. The gun definitely has it's merits, just not for me though.

BHPshooter
May 25, 2004, 01:28 PM
It's kind of ironic for 1911 guys to be touting, "I don't want a BHP, you need a gunsmith to make it go." :scrutiny:

trigger pull is probably the only issue you'll ever see from an FN or Browning HP. And honestly, as I've said before, it's simply NOT an issue. I've got 2 HPs, and neither has had hammer hooks ground and polished, or the sear face cut into a double angle, etc., yet they both have great trigger pulls.

It's kind of funny that people are willing to deal with reliability issues with other guns until they've gone 500 rounds to break in, but waiting the same amount of rounds for a HP's trigger pull to smooth out is somehow too much to ask.

:confused: It all makes sense now. :uhoh:

Wes :scrutiny:

MuzzleBlast
May 25, 2004, 01:39 PM
In fact for shere value, even a FEG clone is worth a look .. depending on how hard you plan to run it.
Here's a quote from Bill Laughridge of Cylinder and Slide, about the FEG clone and the FN: "They're the same gun."
All I know is, my FEG has had thousands of rounds of all kinds put though it, and it has always ran great. The finish isn't as nice as a Belgian gun, but it only cost me a little over $200. Worth a look? Mine was an honest-to-God bargain.

rauchman
May 25, 2004, 01:50 PM
thefumagtor,

Judging by your post and then rereading mine, I realize I didn't clarify myself enough. Ok, what I meant to say was, why can't the BHP be ready to go like a Sig P series, HK USP series, Glock, etc. . While I really like to shoot a 1911, it is not the gun that comes to mind when I think of a reliable defensive pistol. FLAME SUITE ON!! With the SA Loaded I have, I truly enjoy shooting the gun, but while I have Sigs, HKs, etc, that work perfectly all the time, my 1911 is not such a pistol. The difference for my between the BHP and the 1911 is that 1.) I prefer the trigger on the 1911 infinitely over the BHP trigger I experienced and 2.) I prefer the feel of the 1911 over the BHP. Another thing that bugged me on the BHP was how narrow the trigger face seemed to be. I believe Cylinder and Slide sell an aftermarket trigger with a wider face. By the way, on the BHP I had, I did take out the mag safety and did put roughly 700 or so rounds through it. For the people that like the pistol, more power to 'em. I really wanted to like the BHP, but it just didn't work out.

Hope this clarifies things.
Ken

bountyhunter
May 25, 2004, 02:19 PM
While I really like to shoot a 1911, it is not the gun that comes to mind when I think of a reliable defensive pistol. FLAME SUITE ON!! TRUE. I also own three 1911's. They are great for comp shooting, but I would never bet my life on one. They are designed to feed ball ammo, and have a lot of problems feeding the typical defense round hollow point. 1911's also seem to be infinitely creative in finding ways to not feed or extract at just the wrong moment. The most reliable auto I own by far is a Beretta 92FS. Probably 20k round fired and it has yet to jam.

bountyhunter
May 25, 2004, 02:27 PM
All S&W revolvers the same? I have a J Frame new model 60, what are the right areas to polish and what do you suggest to do it with? I'll try doing it myself if you can tell me the right way. The J frames trigger can not be made as good as the K/L/N frame because the J uses the stupid coil mainspring. That said, you can still improve it's smoothness immensely. The main area to polish is the rebound slide faces that ride against the frame (bottom and LHS as you look from the rear). Use a very fine stone or a popsicle stich with 600# paper taped onto it (with oil). The RB slide edges need to be rounded over slightly. Polish the frame surfaces it mates against again with a fine stone or the popsicle stick: snip the end of square and wrap 600# paper over it and use it as a polishing tool against the frame surfaces. Just polish to smoothness.

Some people lightly polish the sides of the trigger and hammer where they ride against the boss pins (again, 600#/oil). Don't try to take off metal, just get smooth.

When reassembling, good lube is key: I currently favor a 50-50 mix of RIG+p stainless grease and FP-10. Lay it on everything except the hammer sides, just use straight FP-10 on that (don't want to drag on the hammer).

I recommend getting the Kuhnhausen manual (Brownells), SW screwdrivers and the SW rebound slide spring tool (Brownells).

bountyhunter
May 25, 2004, 02:33 PM
$100.00 Is that what you find in your area gunsmiths are charging? Seems High? In Kali, they charge a lot more than that and they are back logged for months. On my BHP, I had a smith install the new spring set (because I didn't want to fight the hammer strut "nut" off the thing to change the hammer spring). I think that job alone ran about $75 including the spring kit. I was going to send it to C+S for a trigger job, but they had about a nine month backlog at the time. I ended up doing the trigger job myself. Good result, way too much time wasted. The gun has a good trigger pull, but still won't group worth crap (throws flyers all the time). It needs a new barrel fitted but I have already blown more than $1000 into that dog and I am cutting my losses/

Alerion
May 25, 2004, 02:47 PM
Actually, CDNN's latest flier has (Page 7) ... an FN HP-SFS MkIII showing .. it's the old style ..... in .40 and 9mm .... and a tag of $60.00??????????? can that be right????? They have new models (Belgian FN) showing for $340 D/A-S/A versions. Give em a call perhaps .... 1-800 588 9500 ...... be interested to see if that price is a typo!

Actually it says "$60.00 below distributor cost, call for price" At $60/each I'd take a 100. :cool:

Tom

P95Carry
May 25, 2004, 03:32 PM
Actually it says "$60.00 below distributor cost, call for price" At $60/each I'd take a 100. Oops! Thx Tom .. I really must learn to read properly!:p Explains a lot! :)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re Bounty Hunter's info for polishing RB etc ... that is a pretty good method .... but I'd add one small caveat ..... even when using #600 paper and oil ..... it is likely that a few abrasive particles will detach themselves .. and so it is essential IMO to efficiently flush after the work ... maybe some carb cleaner and compressed air etc .... then re-oil to taste, lightly, on reassembly. If abrasive particles are left behind then it could long term be detrimental.

BHPshooter
May 25, 2004, 04:11 PM
Hey Ken,

No offense intended, my friend. I agree with you -- it seems bass ackwards to make such a beautiful, fine pistol and leave the trigger so unrefined. I also wish they were better out of the box. It is pretty cool that either one of JMB's brainchildren seem to fit 95% of all of the people out there. If the BHP doesn't fit, the 1911 will, or vice versa.

I am a fan of 1911s, but it seems like they throw so many out on the market, they don't take the time to get them running right. Hopefully the Colt that I want will run just fine.

As far as BHPs go, I got pretty darned lucky. Mine is a '94 manufacture, and the trigger was crisp and sweet to begin with. The good news is it just keeps getting better. From what I've read, It seems that the major problem for bad triggers are the ones manufactured from '98 to present. Like someone else said, I think it's a thing to avoid litigation.

Again, I intended no offense by my last post -- re-reading it, it does seem sort of inflammatory. My sincerest apologies.

Wes

Northslope Nimrod
May 25, 2004, 04:50 PM
I agree with Fumegator - The only issue I've had with my BHP was the trigger. Mine was quite gritty and hard out of the box. However, a polished trigger and removal of the magazine safety ($25), solved the trigger problem. Now, after putting well over 500 rounds through it, the trigger is even better. While I was extremley disappointed with the trigger - out of the box, it is an EASY fix. However, reliability is less easily remedied. I have had ZERO....I repeat.....ZERO reliability issues! Not one failure to feed or stove pipe in well over 500 rounds. I shoot Walmart - Winchesters! (BHP Mark III)

NEtracker
May 25, 2004, 05:10 PM
The Hi Power can be purchased NEW in CA??
Why can't I get one, New? Oh, right, I'm in Kerry country.:uhoh:
The Hi-Power has been banned, well not outright.
We cannot buy new ones, so old Used Hi Powers run $699, $799, and yes I saw a nice used Belgian for $1200.
I have one BHP, and unless I stumble on a great deal, or the lottery, I guess that's it for me!

Back to the trigger topic, mine is excellent, but again, it was used 10+ years prior to coming into my hands!

Bartholomew Roberts
May 25, 2004, 05:15 PM
One thing I would recommend is having any trigger work involving the sear/hammer done by a qualified gunsmith. I've seen a few Hi-Powers (including some of my own) that have had reliability issues from poor trigger jobs.

bountyhunter
May 25, 2004, 05:30 PM
One thing I would recommend is having any trigger work involving the sear/hammer done by a qualified gunsmith. I've seen a few Hi-Powers (including some of my own) that have had reliability issues from poor trigger jobs. AMEN. I did the trigger job on mine knowing it would take a few sear cuts to get the angles correct. I bought a second sear to cut and use in the gun after experimenting on the first one. I did get hammer follow on the first couple of tries, eventually got it right. I only would do this on a newer HP because they have a built in FP blocking safety that blocks the firing pin until the trigger is reset and pulled again. That makes mutiple fire events virtually impossible no matter how much you screw up the sear and hammer. Older HP's don't have the FP block feature, and screwing with the sears on those could be very dangerous.

Marshall
May 25, 2004, 11:03 PM
Bountyhunter and P95, thanks for your information! ;)

Just to reiterate, my BHP's have been wonderfully reliable and feel like I'm holding the hand of GOD. However, If they don't fit, like Ken has experienced, they aren't worth a crap to the owner, nor is any gun.

TheDutchman
May 27, 2004, 04:39 PM
Two words COMBAT HANDGUN


Combat handguns do not have 4.5lbs triggers, the Brown HI Power was designed as a combat pistol, not to have a crisp clean paper punching trigger. It has been the official handgun of over 90 countries and over 10 million have been made. The fact that FN needs to catch up with the times on the trigger might be correct, but the Hi power has been using an external extractor for year’s way before the latest fad with them. FN redesign the Hi Power for the .40 cal s&w not to mention that your SIGS, Smiths, CZ's ,Rugers and a few other use a modified HI Power design. That’s hardly keeping up with the Jones. The Hi power is a very good gun friendly to shot yes the trigger is not match grade, but do not let a few posts discourage you into purchasing one you make the choice

bubbygator
May 27, 2004, 07:16 PM
As others have said, BHP is about reliability and accuracy. When I wake up in the middle of the night, the gun that I have placed to put my hand on is my BHP! I certainly like my other guns in various shooting situations, but BHP in my hand means instant confidence.

Barry in IN
May 27, 2004, 08:03 PM
Wow!
All these people picking on one of my favorite couple of pistols.
Hey, the trigger pull adds "character"!

OK, truth is, it should be better. I love them, but they need help out of the box in a few areas in addition to the trigger. A lot of BHP issues (in addition to the trigger) are a lot like 1911's before Colt had competition.
For the money, yes, they should be better. Of the six I have now, they probably have six different pulls. From OK, to OK but heavy, to poor.
They do smooth out in my experience, but the weight stays.

rauchman
May 28, 2004, 09:52 AM
Wow, in this whole thread, I don't recall anyone mentioning anything about the dreaded hammer bite, including myself. I have to say, that was one of the reasons I traded away the pistol. First time at the range with the BHP and the hammer pinching the web of my hand definitely got my attention. I would love to try a BHP that has been really worked over by a smith. I have to believe that a done up BHP would be one sweet pistol. I believe that Cylinder & Slide offers a welded on beaver tail that takes away the hammer bite problem.

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