[The Real Hawkeye]

I was checking my baggage, which contained a 1911 type .45 and a box of JHP ammo. First thing I did was to state that I had an unloaded firearm in the luggage. So she calls airport security. He calls the police, and two cops come over. One cop asks me to unlock the case, so I do. He takes it out, sees its unloaded, plays with it for a few minutes, and then puts it back. He searches and finds a box of ammo. He takes them out and looks at them. He asks me if I hunt. I thought he was being conversational, so I said "Yes, on occasion, you?" No reply. Then he says, "You hunt with this handgun?" Of course not, was my reply. "So why the hollow point ammo?" Huh? "The ammo is for the handgun," I said. "Why do you need hollow points," he asks, "they are designed for killing people, not hunting." Now I am really confused. Why is this guy doing this? I said that I carry them in the handgun for self-defense, and that I am authorized to do so, and I showed him my licenses for this state and for the state of my destination. He keeps the ammo and puts the gun back. I ask him if I can retrieve the ammo when I come back. He says, no, it's his now, and that I didn't have any need for it. I told him to enjoy it, and that I can get a new box on arrival at the local Walmart near the airport. You have to wonder what planet some of these cops are from.

[4v50 Gary]

File an IA complaint. He stole your ammo. :mad: Better yet, a small claims court complaint for conversion - substantial interference with the use and enjoyment of the property of another.

[MLH]

In my state that's called stealing!:cuss: :scrutiny: :barf:

[buy guns]

dont let him get away with stealing your ammo

[Steve in PA]

If the story is true, then a complaint should be filed.

My opinion is, something doesn't sound right. First, JHP aren't illegal, unless of course you live in the People's Republik of NJ, and second, there's is nothing illegal abour flying with ammo in your checked luggage as long as it is in a seperate container.

[The Real Hawkeye]

He said that they had to be in the "original box." I only had like 8 rounds, and had no ammo box available for them, but they were in a seperate container just as good as an ammo box. I guess that's how he justified taking them. My main point, though, was the lecture on the hollow points. I also think I should have been able to retrieve them on my way back.

[Hawkmoon]

I don't believe ammo has to be in "the original box" to be checked through. The cop saw some ammo he thought he could use, so he appropriated it.

File a complaint.

You should also file a complaint with the airline for the twit behind the counter calling for security in the first place. You were complying with the rules, there was no reason to involve either airport (in)security or the police.

[The Real Hawkeye]

At most airports, they don't give a damn, so long as you are upfront about it from the start, and affirm that it is unloaded. This must have been an inexperienced employee, who thought that security had to be notified. The security guy said that he had to call the cops because he knew the alarm bells would go off when they put it through the machine, and might as well take care of it all at once. The methods they have for dealing with this kind of thing are really inefficient and stupid, but my complaint regarded being lectured about the HP ammo. I wonder what he carries in his Glock.

[Hawkmoon]

http://www.packing.org/airlines/
Minimum requirements for airline transportation of firearms:

* The handgun must be UNLOADED.
This is probably a federal law requirement.
* The firearm needs to be in a lockable container within the baggage.
I've seen lockable gun-cases for as little as \$20-40.
* The luggage needs to be lockable
Some airlines seem to require "hard" luggage like a sampsonite-type that gorillas jumped on in the commercials some time ago.
* The ammo should not be in the same baggage as the firearm.
Think if someone does open your baggage, do you want to provide them with everything?
* Don't try to carry the ammo onto the plane.
I was once stopped at the gate and made to "surrender" a keychain of a 5.56 dummy round. No weapon-like objects on planes...period!

Packing.org also has a link to the TSA web site for further information.

[Baba Louie]

He says, no, it's his now, and that I didn't have any need for it. Anyone else witness this besides the second officer? So now, you're left with a gun and no ammo upon your arrival. Nothing more useless than an empty handgun should you need it.

I'd be so P.O.'d, I'd probably miss my flight, find his shift supervisor AND call my attorney, the newspaper all the while jumping into a locked death spiral... should that happen to me... But then I'm stupid about things like that. Those were MY JHP's. Who knows WHERE they might end up? YMMV

[armoredman]

Tork him off completely - place him under citizens arrest on the spot for theft of explosives.
File complaints immediately, get him fired, reimmburse you for stolen merchandise, and mandatory SENSITIVITY TRAINING FOR THE ENTIRE AITPORT!!!:D

[The Real Hawkeye]

Anyone else witness this besides the second officer?I think the security guy was there, but no one else.So now, you're left with a gun and no ammo upon your arrival. Nothing more useless than an empty handgun should you need it.I know. The first thing I did was ask someone where the nearest sporting goods or Walmart was. Went there first, loaded up in the lot, and then continued on my way. It was near the airport.I'd be so P.O.'d, I'd probably miss my flight, find his shift supervisor AND call my attorney, the newspaper all the while jumping into a locked death spiral... should that happen to me... But then I'm stupid about things like that. Those were MY JHP's. Who knows WHERE they might end up? YMMVI tend to try to avoid trouble, myself. Not worth it for 8 rounds.

[Hawkmoon]

I tend to try to avoid trouble, myself. Not worth it for 8 rounds.
It's not the 8 rounds that are at issue here ... it's the principle. You were robbed by an officer acting under color of law.

This time he liked your ammo. The next one might like your gun. "I'll just take this off your hands, sir, since you won't be needing it on the flight."

[deanf]

And this was at which airport?

[ZekeLuvs1911]

Hawkeye, confront the officer. I once told off a cop (in a very polite manner) why he shouldn't bust on me in a book store just because I was reading a gun rag.

[fjolnirsson]

my vision is now clouded by the RCOB.
What an A$$Hat! A disgrace.

[La Pistoletta]

Go to court.

[DMF]

If the story is true, then a complaint should be filed.

My opinion is, something doesn't sound right. First, JHP aren't illegal, unless of course you live in the People's Republik of NJ, and second, there's is nothing illegal abour flying with ammo in your checked luggage as long as it is in a seperate container. I concur.

[Coronach]

If that had happened to me, I would file a complaint in a heartbeat.

Most areas of an airport have security cameras. If filed soon enough, either a complaint or a warrant could provide the plaintif with access to those tapes. I imagine, however, that they are erased and reused on a regular basis.

And the correct response to "they are made to kill people" is "well, no, actually, they are designed to reliably stop, not necessarily kill." ;)

Mike ;)

[Sean Smith]

The cop is a thief. Treat him as such.

[The Real Hawkeye]

And the correct response to "they are made to kill people" is "well, no, actually, they are designed to reliably stop, not necessarily kill."I guess I come off on the internet like a real confrontational fellow, but I tend not to mess with cops. If they want to, they can make life very difficult for you. I prefer peace and quiet. Well, there goes my rep. :D

[Hawkmoon]

And the correct response to "they are made to kill people" is "well, no, actually, they are designed to reliably stop, not necessarily kill."
I disagree with your disagreement. IMHO a better response is "They are not designed to kill, they are designed to avoid over-penetration and injury to innocent bystanders."

God save us from police officers who don't even know why they are issued the ammo they use.

[Standing Wolf]

He says, no, it's his now, and that I didn't have any need for it.

That cop is a thief. He not only doesn't belong in uniform, but belongs in jail for abusing his authority to commit theft.

[Cap Gun]

In todays 'climate' I think you were wise to let it go.

I wouldn't even attempt to take ammo on a plane trip these days. Walmarts and other junk merchants abound in our 'Land O' Plenty'...

Sorry to hear you got robbed though... :(

[veloce851]

"Officer I carry HPs so that in the aweful situation that I may have to protect myself, I can be sure the round will completely stop the criminal in one or two shots. Thereby minimizing the potencial for collateral damage. The HP is used to be sure the round doesn't fully penetrate the criminal and thus preventing any potential risk to bystanders. Don't you load your service pistol with HPs? No? You should. Now place them back in my bag and have a nice day. Oh and thanks for your service. You are appreciated. You want them? sure $13 otherwise you can risk a mark on your record which no doubt is spotless." *insert smile*

[Jokerman]

I really don't think the cop did that because he "wanted the ammo." It seems more likely that he has this notion that a citizen can have too much firepower. It's a common notion shared by anti-gun liberals, and, at least, some cops. Why? Because they are not gun enthusiasts and are uneducated on the subject of self-defense. They automatically assume you must be up to no good, even if they can't prove it.

The implication of that officer's perspective based on his statement that "they are made to kill people" is that you must be a killer, or a would-be one, if you're carrying them. And in his mind, he was thinking: Well, I can't follow this guy around but I can at least take these off him.

[angrywalkindude]

I would go back with a box of sabotaged hollow points and hope he took them as well. Its hard to be a police officer missing a hand.

[greyhound]

I really don't think the cop did that because he "wanted the ammo." It seems more likely that he has this notion that a citizen can have too much firepower

That's what I thought when I read it too....

I sometimes have trouble with the fact that as a nation we revel in movies and other entertainment that pretty much revels in firearms, yet a large percentage of the population freaks out when the "average citizen" has them!

[Art Eatman]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I gather from reading various stories about airport complaints, nobody in the system cares. The exception seems to be cases where there were witnesses to corroborate the complaint.

I've not read anything to indicate that anybody who complains about this sort of thing is treated otherwise than as some sort of criminal.

Art

[gyp_c2]

...I think he did it because he knew he could...He's never been called to task for it and never will be unless someone confronts him and puts a stop to it. I couldn't ignore that...had you heard of stuff like that from this airport before?

What airport?

[Esky]

This sounds awfully familiar to me, except I had a lot more than 8 rounds.

I was flying out of Florida toward Calif, leaving from the Orlando Intl. airport last July. I'd been to a gun show in Fla and had bought (IIRC) 200 rounds of .38 Special which were packed in 2 sealed plastic bags. Didn't have any firearms at all, the rounds were for my Taurus wheelgun which was back in CA.

I also was upfront about having ammo, and declared it when checking in. The gal at the counter immediately called TSA, and a uniformed TSA agent was with us in seconds. He looked at the bags of ammo (these were sealed, not stapled- impossible to get any rounds out without breaking open the bag.)

He gave me the same story that TR Hawkeye got- that they had to be "in the original box"- I pointed out that they were in the exact same packaging as they were when I bought them, and I had a receipt for them too, showing exactly how many rounds were there and what I'd paid for them. My ammo wasn't HP, it was ordinary FMJ, so I didn't get any lecture about how bad they were. :rolleyes:

And even though I was (and am!) unhappy about losing my ammo, I must say that the TSA agent was very civil & polite about the whole thing- but he was adamant that I couldn't take them on my flight (American Airlines, if that makes any difference.) The fact that they weren't in a box seemed to be the only thing that mattered.

I would have liked to have left them with my sister (who lives there in FL and could have shipped them to me) but due to the security she hadn't been able to come with me to the check-in desk at that airport. So I thought I had no option but to accept the situation with as good a grace as I could muster, and I told the TSA agent that he could have them for practice, or give them to his friends. He thanked me and told me that they would definitly be used, that he could use some more practice himself! :cool:

Now my hindsight is a good 20:20, so now I wish that I'd asked to see that rule/regulation in writing, and if my flight had occurred after I'd read this thread maybe I'd have said or done things differently. At the time, though, I was only concerned with missing my flight.

So what's with the "original box"? Can anybody point to any written regulations on this point, or does the TSA make it up on the spot?

Esky
who wonders what ever happened to the friendly skies

[txgho1911]

Maybe a cell call to your lawyer at the time and just leave the phone on your belt. Let your lawyer listen in and/or record it. May be all the evidense needed for a write up. Some state's laws would require you to inform all parties of the recording.
I guess I need to ask my lawyer if his phones are recorded in any fasion.
Read a story where a Black man felt he was being profiled and shal we say got rough treatment by the same cops regularly. It all stoped when he left his cell phone in a call on his dashboard where the offending *&^%$ could not mistake it for anything else.

[mrapathy2000]

he said the ammo had to be in the "original box"

ask him to site what title,chapter,section of the law it says that.

what if its handloaded ammo? handloaded ammo doesnt come in a box.

dont let him get away with it. its been done before lookup winchester black talon ammo. number of cops have stole or tried to steel that now fairly rare ammo because of the hype around it.

[Fly320s]

The FAA sets general guidlines as to the transportation of firearms in checked baggage.

Individual airlines may have more stringent requirements to transport firearms and ammo.

Some airlines do require the ammo to be in it's original manufacturer's box; other airlines allow other ways to transport the ammo, such as in plastic or metal or cardboard containers designed to transport ammo.

The reasoning, I presume, is that loose rounds have a greater potential to be accidently fired. Loose rounds, not protected by a specially-designed box, may have the primer struck hard enough by another object in the suitcase causing the round to fire.

You and I know that a cartridge that is fired outside a chamber of a gun is unlikely to generate enough speed/energy on the bullet to cause a penetration issue with the aircraft. But the ignited primer and powder may cause other items in the suitcase to catch fire.

So, it all boils down to safety. It's what the airline can due to be safe and still allow the customer to transport the gun and ammo.

This is what my airline says about ammo transport:

"Additionally, no more than ten (10) lbs. of ammunition for personal use per passenger will be transported. Ammuntion must be securely packaged in either a fiber, wood or metal box. Ammunition with exploding or incendiary projectiles will NOT be accepted for transportation."

HTH.
--------

As for the LEO, I think you should press charges. He had no authorization to take the ammo, as the airline sets the rule for transportation. Besides, he needs an attitude adjustment.

BTW, which airport and airline?

[Hawkmoon]

Still looking for a link I had once seen to the TSA, but the following is from Delta's web site:
When checking a firearm, you must:

* declare to the Delta representative that they are checking a firearm (If a Security Checkpoint is prior to the Delta ticket counter, you must declare the existence of a firearm to security personnel.)

* present firearm(s) unloaded and sign a "Firearms Unloaded" declaration

* lock the firearm(s) in a hard-sided, crush-proof container and retain the key or combination

* maintain entry permits in your possession for the country or countries of destination or transit

* ensure small arms ammunition is packed in the manufacturer's original package or securely packed in fiber, wood or metal boxes

Their rules do require that ammo be boxed, but they do NOT require the manufacturer's orignal box. They also do NOT require that the ammo be in a separate suitcase from the handgun, or even that it be in a separate case from the handgun.

"... fiber, wood or metal boxes" would appear to eliminate plastic ammo boxes favored by reloaders, however.

[Hawkmoon]

Direct from the TSA web site:
Q: Can I transport guns or firearms?

A: Guns and Firearms are NOT permitted in your carry-on baggage, but depending on the policy of your airline, they may be included with your checked baggage. Check with your airline or travel agent to see if firearms are permitted in checked baggage on the airline you are flying. Firearms carried as checked baggage MUST be unloaded, packed in a locked hard-sided gun case, and declared to the airline at check-in. Only you, the passenger, may have the key or combination.

Q: What about ammunition?

A: Ammunition is NOT permitted in your carry-on baggage, but depending on the policy of your airline, may be included with your checked baggage. Check with your airline or travel agent to see if ammunition is permitted in checked baggage on the airline you are flying. If ammunition is permitted, it must be declared to the airline at check-in. Small arms ammunitions for personal use must be securely packed in fiber, wood or metal boxes, or other packaging specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition. Ask about limitations or fees, if any, that apply.

It rather appears that the TSA regs are fairly general, and that they defer to the individual airlines for much of the specificity.

[Treylis]

I would have been royally torqued off, and would have immediately asked to see the rule in writing. What that cop did was theft, plain and simple. I do agree that he probably felt that you had "too much firepower" with the HPs--when you're shooting back in self-defense, you shouldn't make the "victims" who attacked you too dead, you know.

Plus, I've been in conversations with people about how evil hollowpoints are, and have a number of snappy responses. Be conversationally armed in case there's a next time. ;-)

[Warren]

Could it be that this guy supplies himself with ammo by doing this?

Given the number of travellers he gets to see he might have developed a little system of getting free ammo.

Keep what he uses and sell off to his friends what he does not need.

[natedog]

they are designed for killing people

To be frank, some people just need to be killed (IE the ones that are trying to do the same to me).

Ask him to drop his magazine and show you what's in it. 8 rounds of .45ACP says that it's JHP!

[Wildalaska]

To be frank, some people just need to be killed (IE the ones that are trying to do the same to me).

O and whos trying to kill ya there fella?:eek: :rolleyes:

WildrhetoricpoliceAlaska

[wasrjoe]

O and whos trying to kill ya there fella?

The theoretical person he is using his gun in SD against? Did I miss something? I guess I don't get the :rolleyes: smiley added after that.

[natedog]

I'm not saying that someone's trying to kill me this very moment- instead, I'm simply stating that someone who is trying to kill me/cause extreme bodily harm is going to get shot- and hollow points are better for shooting people.

NateyouknowwhatimeansoletsnotargueoversemanticsDog

[cropcirclewalker]

So what was the airport?

[cropcirclewalker]

I got arrested for committing a lawful act at the St. Louis Airport.

Just over a year after 9-11 while dropping my wife off to fly to San Diego, I pull into short term parking where there is a sign....."All Vehicles Will Be Searched."

Back in yon days of yore, in MO if you carried in your glove box it was considered concealed, which was considered a felony. I took the weapon out of the glove box, laid it on the seat (MO is an open carry state and on the seat is legal) and told the garage guy at the gate that I had a weapon in the car, would I be able to park there?

To make a long story short, I spent 2 hours chained to a bench in the airport police station, while my wife had to check herself in alone, (A nice young cop rode up to her on a bicycle and told her that I had been arrested for having a gun and that I thought she shoud go on alone). She flew to San Diego thiinking that I was in Orange Coveralls.

One of the cops in the airport cop shop tried to buy my piece. a nice little makarov. I told him he would have to get permission from his CLEO. They HATE guns in St. Louie.

Anyway, after the two hours of trying to figure out what to charge me with and coming up empty, They hadda give me back my piece and send me on my way.

I'm done flying till they let me take my shootin' iron aboard. Yeah, don't hold yer breath.I hope all the airlines go broke.

[Gray Peterson]

Can the poster PLEASE state which airport and airline this occured in? It's vitally important.

[Treylis]

Anyway, after the two hours of trying to figure out what to charge me with and coming up empty, They hadda give me back my piece and send me on my way.

I think it's pretty reasonable to say that any time you can't come up with whether or not an action is legal and the rationale behind it in 60 seconds of thinking or less, it's a bad law and shouldn't be in place.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Anyway, after the two hours of trying to figure out what to charge me with and coming up empty, They hadda give me back my piece and send me on my way.You gotta love that.

P.S. Regarding the guy who keeps asking which airport and airline, my answer is that the complaint that was the topic of my original post had to do with the attitude of the P.O., not the airline policy or the airport. I have a personal policy not to give specifics on the Internet that could connect me with any particular location. Sorry.

[EOD Guy]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
he said the ammo had to be in the "original box"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



ask him to site what title,chapter,section of the law it says that.

what if its handloaded ammo? handloaded ammo doesnt come in a box.

While Federal regulations do not require the ammunition to be in the original box, it must be packaged in a container which protects the primer from accidental ignition. The plastic ammo boxes used by many reloaders are sufficient. The Dept of Transportation regulation is 49CFR173.63(b)(2).

[mfree]

In those "minimum rules" posted above, the one thing that stands out is that it states that ammunition shouldn't be in the same bag as the firearm.

If that's the case, you could have had any kind in the bag with the gun and they'd have taken it. The cop just decided to be a dick and give a lecture while doing it.

I'll bet if you'd had JHP in there he'd have confiscated it and given you a lecture about overpenetration and collateral damage. No-win situation.

[La Pistoletta]

Even if you can't take the ammo onboard, does he have the right to steal it from you just because of that?

[Steel]

He must fry!

you owe it to yourself and US!

[Bruce H]

Well if you aren't going to name specifics then is is just a story. It is real easy to sit at a keyboard and make statements to get reactions. No specifics that can be checked makes this nothing but a war story. What is to say it really happened? Run along now and tell another board another one.

[The Real Hawkeye]

He must fry!

you owe it to yourself and US!Ok, I just remembered his name and badge number, so I called his superiors, and he's on unpaid leave while an investigation is undertaken by Internal Affairs. NOT. :neener:

[The Real Hawkeye]

Well if you aren't going to name specifics then is is just a story. It is real easy to sit at a keyboard and make statements to get reactions. No specifics that can be checked makes this nothing but a war story. What is to say it really happened? Run along now and tell another board another one.I must have a very vivid imagination. :rolleyes: Like anything else anyone says, you can take it or leave it. It is exactly zero skin off my nose either way.

[dance varmint]

The story doesn't hold water with me, since the top poster won't respond with any specifics. Taken separately, elements of the story are believable, but it's a little unbelievable that the airport staff are so inept and criminal. Nobody is supposed to handle firearms but the passenger, and especially not the police, or for that matter any airline or TSA agent.

[Cosmoline]

What that officer did was THEFT and he needs to go to jail. Sadly this will never happen, but there is a circle of hell reserved for those who abuse positions of authority. The ninth. I'm sure he'll enjoy it.

[The Real Hawkeye]

What that officer did was THEFT and he needs to go to jail. Sadly this will never happen, but there is a circle of hell reserved for those who abuse positions of authority. The ninth. I'm sure he'll enjoy it.The guy was a jerk, but I think I would personally spare him the pains of hell (or even jail time, LOL) for what he did. As for the taking of the 8 rounds, I think he believed he did it for lawful reasons, mistaken or not. That didn't bother me as much as his using his position of authority to hold me there while he lectured me on my choice of HP ammo. That's what burned me the most. The loss of ammo was an inconvenience, at most.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Nobody is supposed to handle firearms but the passenger, and especially not the police, or for that matter any airline or TSA agent.The TSA agent didn't handle it. I didn't know the cop wasn't supposed to handle it. Apparently he didn't either, because he picked it up out of the case, racked the slide back, looked at his partner with an expression on his face like he admired the gun, and continued holding it for a few minutes while talking to me. Even if I knew of a reg that said he couldn't touch it, I was so nervous at the time (that kind of situation makes me very nervous) that I wouldn't have said a thing about it. I was just happy it finally ended, and I was able to make my flight.

[Esky]

Bruce H--

I can accept that The Real Hawkeye has his own reasons for not responding to your question about specifics.

But I do accept his story, because as I said earlier, IT HAPPENED TO ME TOO.

For your enlightenment: in my case it was leaving Orlando International Airport in Florida on the 9th of July, 2003. I was flying to LAX on American Airlines Flt 204, which departed Orlando at 10:40 PM. When the flight took off I was in seat 18A. (I've still got the boarding pass, if you don't believe any of MY story.)

Sorry, but I didn't write down the name of the TSA agent, nor did I get the color of his underwear, but I can assure you that it did indeed happen.

I too was told that ammo had to be "in the original box" and wasn't given any reason why, or alternate ways that I could repackage the ammo to be in compliance with the law/regulation/whim/whatever. And I expect you know that you can't just drop ammo into the nearest trash can to dispose of it. So I "donated" my ammo to the TSA guy & tried to make the best of a bad situation. As I also said earlier, if I'd read this thread before my flight, I probably would have done things differently.

The differences between my case and Hawkeye's are mostly that I didn't have a gun, or HP ammo, so wasn't hassled about that; and my TSA guy had a pretty reasonable attitude and was nice & polite about it all, but he was adamant that I couldn't take my ammo with me the way it was packed.

Now how about you telling the rest of us what your "vitally important" reason for wanting to know is?

I'd hate to think that you are just looking for attention.

Oh, and dance varmint- gee, I sure have met a lot of inept, unqualified, and generally incompetent staff at airports. Dunno about criminal. One of that type caused me to miss my connecting flight from LAX --> San Diego the following day. So please recommend me to an airline or airport which has NO inept and/or criminal staff, I'd love to know it!

Esky
who gets ticked off at slimy insinuations

[The Real Hawkeye]

Thanks, Esky. I appreciate that. By the way, the TSA guy was a perfect gentleman from beginning to end.

[Bruce H]

Does things like this happen? Yes on a daily basis in several walks of life. Taking the "don't want to cause trouble for anybody" attitude is what sucks. Why do you think they can get away with this kind of behavior? You let them.

[Esky]

T R Hawkeye,

The pleasure was all mine. <bows> :D

BTW- I love the PS in your sig, but I expect we both know that the reason it wasn't in the movie is that it's both too relevant and too non-PC. I recommend it to anyone who hasn't read it.

Esky
feelin' better now

[F4GIB]

I continue to be amazed that the NRA can't get these money losing airlines to sit down in a conference room someplace and work out 1 (or at most 2) uniform policies that (a) make sense AND (b) are practical. I'll bet they've never tried. Many of the policies read like they were written by someone who had no familiarity with firearms at all (probably airline lawyers).

[Art Eatman]

dance varmint, IMO you're a bit of an optimist about the behavior with respect to rules on the part of bureaucrats and security people. Just becaused they'renot supposed to doesn't mean they won't.

Years ago I had a similar run-in over a forgotten 1911 magazine full of Silvertips. The two airport cops' facial expressions through our little dialogue seemed to me to indicate a total lack of familiarity with 1911s, .45ACP or hollowpoint ammo. They even went more blank when I mentioned gunsmithing and IPSC shooting.

I just said, "Enjoy!"

As a thread, this old horse is on its last legs, particularly with any thinly-veiled insults...

Art

[Valkman]

My first thought was what natedog said - you know as a cop he's carrying JHP's and there's no way he's carrying ball ammo. I would have asked to see his ammo and if JHP is so bad why do police use them? I hate guys like this who know it all.

[Fudgie Ghost]

The few times that I've flown with a handgun and ammo, I've ALWAYS had a copy of the airlines regs with me at check in. And read them over several times, and, hopefully understood them.

From my experience both Delta and AA have regs that state ammo must be in "original packaging", that it can only be put in checked baggage, and seperate from the handgun, (although they don't make clear if that means in a seperate suitcase/bag than the gun, or just not 'with' the gun---I put the ammo in a different bag anyway).

If the original poster was trying to fly with the ammo in his carry on, then I think that's not going to fly (no pun intended). If he was trying to fly with the ammo in his checked baggage, then he was violating the airlines regulations, but not, actually any LAW. I just put a box of 20 rounds in the suitcase, and I was fine. Well, I had a couple of hiccups, which I have related in pasts posts, so I won't bore people here again with them.

However, having the lecture and confiscation of these JHP rounds is another story--the airline regs make NO mention of JHP/FMJ consideration or prohibition.

[HankB]

When I've traveled with firearms, upon checking with the airlines beforehand I was made aware of the rule that ammo was supposed to be in original packaging or equivalent. Since I handload, I've found that those plastic Midway ammo boxes are OK, especially if you wrap them in cellophane to make them look "shrink wrapped" and include things like labels ("HankB Company Custom Sporting Ammunition") that look "official."

Putting on a price tag helps, too. ;)

I've also heard - from several sources - of people that put in one "special" load, unmistakeably (but not obviously) identified, which will cure an ammo thief who later shoots it of his bad habit. (Usually the "special" load involves a full case of Bullseye powder.)

As far as the original post of this thread is concerned . . . I hope the crooked cop enjoys his "free" ammo. One bad apple like this will overshadow 100 "good cop" tales. I'd still make a complaint.

[Firethorn]

HankB, what do you mean by bullseye powder? It looks like standard smokeless on google. I'd think that a full load of genuine smokey black powder would be the best. :evil:

Just imagine the fun the SOB would have cleaning his nice semi-auto...:neener:

[MeekandMild]

Robert Heinlein would have been disappointed if he'd found you were flying commercial. :rolleyes:

[Jokerman]

Actually, the same kind of thing happened to me. I was walking through checkout at the airport with a Krispy Kreme donut in my hand, and a cop saw it and came right over. He took me aside and asked, "Are you a cop?" I'm like, "uhh...no." Then he asks me if eat these things often? I thought he was being conversational, so I said "Yes, on occasion, you?" No reply. Then he says, "You call this a nutritious meal?" Of course not, was my reply. "So why all the extra sugar on them? Huh? "Why do you need these, he asks, "they are designed to kill people, not provide you with your basic nutrients. You will get heart disease and bad dental caries." Now I am really confused. Why is this guy doing this? I said that I was eating them because I was in a rush and missed a meal. He keeps the donuts and gives me a coupon for a salad somewhere. I ask him if I can retrieve the donuts when I come back. He says, no, it's his now, and that I didn't have any need for it. I told him to enjoy it, and that I can get a new box on arrival at the local Krispy Kreme near the airport.

He said that they had to be in the "original box." I only had like 8 donuts, and had no Krispy Kreme box available for them, but they were in a seperate container just as good as a Krispy Kreme box. I guess that's how he justified taking them. My main point, though, was the lecture on the nutirition. I also think I should have been able to retrieve them on my way back.

[gunsmith]

in the 70's and 80's lots of cops took my weed and told me to move along,later on as I got older I would meet cops at parties and they were smoking pot they had gotten using the same method.
Maybe it was just the NYPD but i don't think so.
this is not meant to slam cops,my brother and late father are/were cops.
this behavior was accepted by the public and the chief law enforcement officers.
IMHO it leads to corruption but I am also glad that the cops would let me go for weed rather then bust me...It's not the 8 rounds that are at issue here ... it's the principle. You were robbed by an officer acting under color of law.
I believe this principle is extremly important. To not fight against this abuse is to condone stealing,it has to be confronted,if you are the type who does not confront evil then don't carry a gun. ***look at this story***
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?id=3567
if you stand your ground it is better for you and for eveyone else.

By being afraid to rock the boat,to demand your rights,you leave the door open for corruption and crime.
This mind set allows fake cops to rob,rape and steal.
There was a rash of fake cops robbing people in CA last year,the people who demanded to see proper ID and to talk to superiors were left alone,the meek inherited a loss of property and rape and sometimes death.

evil prevails when good people do nothing

[The Real Hawkeye]

I'd think that a full load of genuine smokey black powder would be the best.

Just imagine the fun the SOB would have cleaning his nice semi-auto...LOL

[The Real Hawkeye]

Actually, the same kind of thing happened to me. I was walking through checkout at the airport with a Krispy Kreme donut in my hand, and a cop saw it and came right over. He took me aside and asked, "Are you a cop?" I'm like, "uhh...no." Then he asks me if eat these things often? I thought he was being conversational, so I said "Yes, on occasion, you?" No reply. Then he says, "You call this a nutritious meal?" Of course not, was my reply. "So why all the extra sugar on them? Huh? "Why do you need these, he asks, "they are designed to kill people, not provide you with your basic nutrients. You will get heart disease and bad dental caries." Now I am really confused. Why is this guy doing this? I said that I was eating them because I was in a rush and missed a meal. He keeps the donuts and gives me a coupon for a salad somewhere. I ask him if I can retrieve the donuts when I come back. He says, no, it's his now, and that I didn't have any need for it. I told him to enjoy it, and that I can get a new box on arrival at the local Krispy Kreme near the airport.

He said that they had to be in the "original box." I only had like 8 donuts, and had no Krispy Kreme box available for them, but they were in a seperate container just as good as a Krispy Kreme box. I guess that's how he justified taking them. My main point, though, was the lecture on the nutirition. I also think I should have been able to retrieve them on my way back.ROF LMAO :D :D :D

[Treylis]

in the 70's and 80's lots of cops took my weed and told me to move along,later on as I got older I would meet cops at parties and they were smoking pot they had gotten using the same method.

It seems like that kind of thing is extremely, extremely common... "Uh, yeah, I'm going to... confiscate that. Just run along now. Don't let me catch you with anything again."

[Chuck Jennings]

Did you receive any sort of receipt for the confiscated property?

[The Real Hawkeye]

Did you receive any sort of receipt for the confiscated property?If you're asking me, no I didn't. I asked if I would be able to retrieve when I came back in 10 days, and they seemed to think it was funny.

[Gray Peterson]

Hawkeye, which AIRPORT did this take place at?

[geegee]

When I first started flying with a handgun, I was aware that it needed to be checked in a locked case, with the ammo separately packed. I figured it was no big deal, so I just slipped a loaded mag under the foam and offered the gun in case with the slide locked back. The counter agent would look at it, give me the tag to fill out, and I went on my way. Until the last time I tried it.

I placed the case in front of the ticket counter agent (a pleasant enough young lady), who confidently picked up my .45, checked the chamber, and then lifted the foam and saw my loaded magazine. Oops. :o

She said "Well, look at this!" She then proceeded to quickly eject the rounds into her other hand and said "I guess this will just be a contribution to "the airport police ammo fund." Uh, yeah...sure thing. Glad to, in fact!

She gave me the tag to fill out, smiled at me, and returned the locked case to me. No more cute stuff for me, and I counted myself fortunate that she handled it the way she did.

From that point forward, I always packed a 20 round box of unopened ammo inside a small triangular Doskocil case, with a lock.

In another Doskocil case went the pistol, also with a lock. I was never hassled about it again, but then I haven't flown with a gun since we were attacked. The hassles with the airlines are just not worth it to me if I can avoid them, and with the majority of my travel, I can and do.

[HankB]

Firethorn:HankB, what do you mean by bullseye powder? It looks like standard smokeless on google. I'd think that a full load of genuine smokey black powder would be the best. There are MANY types of smokeless powder, with widely varied compositions and burning rates. "Bullseye" is an extremely fast-burning powder meant for light target loads in pistols. For example, a charge of 2.7 grains (by weight) with a 148 grain bullet is a standard target load for .38 Special. This only fills a fraction of the available case volume.

A full case of this powder is virtually guaranteed to cause catastrophic failure of the firearm it's fired in. (Think "explosion" and "shrapnel.") This would not be good for the person firing it. If that person is an thief who's stolen the ammo, this type of experience will go a long way toward curing him of that habit. ;)

(The downside of making "special" loads is if you get them mixed in with your own good ammo. :eek: )

[Sawdust]

A full case of this powder is virtually guaranteed to cause catastrophic failure of the firearm it's fired in. (Think "explosion" and "shrapnel.") This would not be good for the person firing it. If that person is an thief who's stolen the ammo, this type of experience will go a long way toward curing him of that habit.

Sounds like appropriate retribution for a thief ...cop or no.

Sawdust

[crewchief]

Ok I agree that this Cop appears to be in the wrong, well at least with the way he handled the situation but I have to clear some severely wrong things that are being said. I work as a supervisor for the screeners for the TSA and here are the Federal laws that have to be adhered to.

1) All ammo that is inside a checked piece of luggage has to be in it's original container. Now this can be bent a little depending on the discretion of TSA supervisor or airline representative. For instance if you have hand-loaded ammo that has no original container, you can either put it in a old or different original cardboard container or one of those plastic container that separate each round by a divider. It is still the supervisor's discretion if the ammo is in one big box like Federal bulk .22's with no divider between each round if they are allowed or not.

2) Ammo that is packaged in "ammo cans" like belts of .50 cal. ammo are ok so long as they are in the original ammo can and the belts have the original cardboard divider between layers. Also original bandoleers in the original box's and on the original stripper clips are ok.

3) Primers have to be in their original box's no if and or buts.

4) Unprimed brass can be in regular ziplock baggies or any container, this also includes already fired brass with used primers still seated.

5) If empty brass has new primers installed or unfired then each piece of brass has to be in a divided box like outlined in #1 above.

6) Just the bullets whether rifle or pistol can be in baggies or boxed just like empty brass.

7) This one might get someone's goat but at no time is a container of just gunpowder like for reloading allowed.

8) At no time is ammo or ammo related stuff allowed to be in the same internal case that the firearm is located in.

9) Magazines do not count as a suitable container for ammo to travel in.

10) A screener or screening supervisor has no obligation to give any type of receipt for items confiscated.

11) Depending on the situation a LEO must be summoned no matter what by the screener. This is because at no time is a screener or any member of the TSA allowed to handle a firearm and only LEO's assigned on duty can handle a firearm. This is important because if you see a TSA person handling a firearm of yours tell them immediately to stop and ask for a supervisor and tell them. Handling of a firearm is a immediate firing offense and the TSA takes this quite seriously. This however does not pertain to ammo as they can handle all the ammo they want.

Now I am sorry if I sound like a a-hole about this stuff, but I wanted to make sure that correct info was being given and not assumptions. If you want to know exactly where these laws are located well I can tell you that they are both Federal Aviation Regulations and in the TSA Screening Standard Operating Procedure. Both are considered sensitive security information books so it is impossible for you to actually get a hard copy in writing. I will tell you though that every screening location is required to have a SOP on hand and that if you question a law the screening supervisor should be able to quote the law/reason for confiscation directly out of said manual in your presence.

[jimpeel]

I guess the moral of the story is to get an ammo box to put the ammo in before you fly or plan on buying some when you get to your destination.

[Hawkmoon]

crewchief:
1) All ammo that is inside a checked piece of luggage has to be in it's original container. Now this can be bent a little depending on the discretion of TSA supervisor or airline representative. For instance if you have hand-loaded ammo that has no original container, you can either put it in a old or different original cardboard container or one of those plastic container that separate each round by a divider. It is still the supervisor's discretion if the ammo is in one big box like Federal bulk .22's with no divider between each round if they are allowed or not.
I posted the Federal law directly from the TSA web site earlier in this thread. It does NOT state that ammo must be in its original container.

The following was copied directly off the TSA web site:
Q: What about ammunition?

A: Ammunition is NOT permitted in your carry-on baggage, but depending on the policy of your airline, may be included with your checked baggage. Check with your airline or travel agent to see if ammunition is permitted in checked baggage on the airline you are flying. If ammunition is permitted, it must be declared to the airline at check-in. Small arms ammunitions for personal use must be securely packed in fiber, wood or metal boxes, or other packaging specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition. Ask about limitations or fees, if any, that apply.

Either you have it wrong, ot the TSA is posting information on its official web site that doesn't conform to the law. Which is it?

[hammer4nc]

Thanks crewchief, its always enlightening to get information from the source.

Often times our resident defenders of government agents (leo's and in this case screeners) on this forum say: "blame the politician who passed the law, not the cop who enforces it". Or a variation of the above.

The thing that jumps out at me in this case, is the screener apparently is not enforcing the law, but rather a secret Aviation Regulation/Operating Procedure. You seem to treat the two interchangeably, which I'd caution is a very dangerous mistake. Especially since said regulations/procedures are secret. "Eyes only?...he can read you the reg. but you can't get a hard copy? This is sounding stranger by the minute.

Potential for abuse, and confusion, as evidenced in this instance, over what chould be a trivial cut and dry issue.

What recourse does a citizen have if they have a problem with a particular TSA enforcement action? Or is that procedure secret also?

[HankB]

What recourse does a citizen have if they have a problem with a particular TSA enforcement action? Or is that procedure secret also? There was just a story in the news about a TSA baggage screener who was arrested for stealing CD's from checked baggage - they had him on video tape from a surveillance camera pilfering baggage, and charged him with theft.

Charges were just dropped on the grounds that prosecution would reveal "sensitive security information" so . . . he walked free.

So, it's official: theft by TSA screeners has now been non-criminalized. :cuss:

[Esky]

HankB--

There was just a story in the news about a TSA baggage screener who was arrested for stealing CD's from checked baggage - they had him on video tape from a surveillance camera pilfering baggage, and charged him with theft.

Any possibility you could provide a link to that story?

I'd just love to hammer some of my "elected representatives" in Congress about this matter. (The scare quotes are because they may be elected, but they seldom if ever represent ME.)

Esky
who doesn't like the secret procedure stuff at all, and thinks it is probably not legal

[HankB]

Esky:Any possibility you could provide a link to that story? It appeared in the Austin American Statesman on 5/26/04, page A17, in a story bylined by a Rebecca Carr, rcarr@coxnews.com.

The newspaper's website has the story at http://www.statesman.com/money/content/auto/epaper/editions/wednesday/news_044b04aa469b006610e0.html

but you'll probably have to register (free) to view it.

The story reads, in part:

Secrecy measure sets free accused thief

Law designed to protect sensitive information from terrorists raises questions about how far government secrecy should go.

By Rebecca Carr

WASHINGTON BUREAU

Wednesday, May 26, 2004

WASHINGTON -- Last fall, Miami prosecutors thought they had a solid case against a federal baggage screener who was caught on videotape stealing CDs from passengers' luggage.

There was just one problem: The defense would be allowed to question a key prosecution witness from the Transportation Security Administration about Miami International Airport's security and training of baggage screeners.

Fearing that the testimony could put what the government calls "sensitive security information," or "SSI," in the hands of terrorists, prosecutors dropped the charges. U.S. District Judge Adalberto Jordan set the defendant free.

. . .

[Esky]

Thanks, HankB--

Now I'm going to write a nice & polite letter to my state rep, Duke Cunningham (who is pro-gun, very rare in the PRK) asking him to check into the issue that we've been discussing in this thread.

My own experience with ammo confiscation (see above, if you're new to this thread) didn't cause me to think that my ammo was being stolen... but that I wasn't able to have it on the flight without the "original box" which I couldn't provide, thus leaving me with no alternative but to give it away.

Now I'm wondering about the legitimacy of the demand; if there's some 'black book' that TSA (or the airlines) goes by, which we, being mere citizens of this republic, are not allowed to inspect.

And yes, I'm aware that due to terrorism, security concerns are very important. But I'm also extremely dismayed by the loss of our civil liberties, and to not be able to even prosecute a thief because the magic wand of "sensitive security information" prevents it... well.

Personally I think the best airline security would be to allow all US citizens to open carry on airplanes & in airports, like we should be able to do anywhere in the USA. I'm willing to bet that hijacking airplanes, or stealing ammo, would not be much of a problem if that were the case.

(Yeah, I know... but I can dream, can't I?)

Esky
who would really like to see the Constitution being followed for a change

[Esky]

Questions for the moderators of THR (and contributors, too):

Would it be OK if I refer to this thread when writing to my congressman?

If it is OK, what is the best way of doing so?

I was thinking of summarizing the ideas contained in this thread in my letter, but it also occurred to me that I could print out the whole thread & highlight the parts I want to emphasize.

But I sure don't want to upset everybody here at THR! (Only a selected few.... ;) )

Please advise (using PM or email, I don't want to hijack this thread any more than I already have.)

Esky

[Hawkmoon]

Hello, Crewchief --

Are you there? I'd very much like to have your comments on the obvious discrepancy between your understanding of the TSA regulations and what it says on the TSA's own web site.

[M1911]

At Xmas in 2003, I flew from Boston to Orlando and back. I declared my gun and ammunition. My Kahr MK9 was unloaded, in a locked, hard-sided box inside my locked, hardsided suitcase. I had 25 rounds of JHP ammunition in the factory box. I had no problems at either end. Boston is not known for being gun-friendly, but the gate agent was quite cheerful. He asked that I demonstrate that it was unloaded, that was it. In Orlando, the woman asked that I demonstrate that the gun was unloaded, then walked me over to the TSA bomb-screening machine, where I stood by in case they needed to search the bag. They did, but not because of the gun or ammo -- it was the cheese board that the machine was worried about.

The airline and TSA personnel were all pleasant, polite, and helpful. I had no problems whatsoever.

Don't expect to be able to carry hundreds of rounds of ammo on an airline flight. Do carry them in a manufacturer's box. If you carry reloads, put them in a manufacturer's box (I'm sure you've got one or two kicking around in the basement), rather than a plastic reloading box. Yes, it shouldn't make any difference, but it might and why bother arguing the point?

[The Real Hawkeye]

M1911 Said: At Xmas in 2003, I flew from Boston to Orlando and back. I declared my gun and ammunition. My Kahr MK9 was unloaded, in a locked, hard-sided box inside my locked, hardsided suitcase. I had 25 rounds of JHP ammunition in the factory box. I had no problems at either end. Boston is not known for being gun-friendly, but the gate agent was quite cheerful. He asked that I demonstrate that it was unloaded, that was it. In Orlando, the woman asked that I demonstrate that the gun was unloaded, then walked me over to the TSA bomb-screening machine, where I stood by in case they needed to search the bag. They did, but not because of the gun or ammo -- it was the cheese board that the machine was worried about.

The airline and TSA personnel were all pleasant, polite, and helpful. I had no problems whatsoever.

Don't expect to be able to carry hundreds of rounds of ammo on an airline flight. Do carry them in a manufacturer's box. If you carry reloads, put them in a manufacturer's box (I'm sure you've got one or two kicking around in the basement), rather than a plastic reloading box. Yes, it shouldn't make any difference, but it might and why bother arguing the point?I tend to agree. Had I known I could have avoided trouble by putting them in an ammo box I would have found one, or just not brought them at all. You can bet that on the way back they were in an ammo box, i.e., the box I bought at the Walmart near the Airport.

[Fish Springs]

Humm...December 2004. Texas to Washington State. Four people 5 guns (four shotguns and one hand gun) duck and goose loads for a week but under maximum poundage per ticket, Glock and ammo. Continental was the carrier. Terrorist Threat Level Orange--was prepared for a long trip. So we dressed business casual (dockers, golf shirts, "nice people suburan look) and headed for the airport.

Outbound--no real problem. Guns long, locked case. Pistol in locked case, water fowl ammo and hand gun ammo split between two bags--so some would still get there.

Dropped the family at curb side, parked off airport and took the shuttle in. One kid waiting with gun case, had to have my ticket to check one too many bags for tickets--needed mine for the second gun case. Perimiter search underway on airport access road. Rolled down my window, looked attentive, waived through.

Got to Seattle, picked up luggage no problem. A couple of Seattle folks openly wished they could find land in the Basin to hunt.

Return trip--only the bronze buffalo sculpure Christmas present now in my shell bag caused a problem--it was x-ray proof :rolleyes: and really got the once over--but I can understand why a lump of metal and all of my choke tubes in a cammo carry on bag raised some eyebrows.....

TSA screener liked the BPS 3.5 he had one. Carefully searched under every piece of foam in all gun cases--I'd left all but 20 rounds for the Glock in Washington. It seemed like too many guns and too little ammo? Handgun ammo was a clear mis-match 40 SW in a 38 Long Colt box--went through with no problem.

Next year, flying with only the carry piece/ammo as I bought a Nova 3.5 and left all of the shells in Washington. Also picked up my WA State concealed carry license while on holiday.

Nice trip--no problems.

[crewchief]

Hawkmoon,

Yes I am here sorry but I was out of town for a few days and I forgot about this post. Anyways if you look I say that it can be in other type of containers like the kind you use for reloading and not necessarily in the original packaging. I am sorry if it seemed that way but I was trying to give advice that would be the least confusing and that would give you the least amount of hassle at the checkpoint. You see no matter what the book or regs actually say it is the sole discretion of the screening supervisor. Say something totally different from ammo like if you are carrying a big soccer trophy on board. Well to me and some other supervisor it is just a trophy and there is nothing that says you can't take it, but to another supervisor it might be something that can be used as a bludgeon or club because of the heavy base and shape and he will confiscate it. All I wanted to do is convey info that I know a majority of supervisors agree upon and I have seen supervisors disagree on the metal box issue. See every supervisor I have known has agreed that each round has to be divided unless it is belted. Now I know it does not specify this in the reg and that is why I said original containers or the plastic boxs that have individual dividers for reloading. Go ahead and put some ammo in a regular small cardboard box like it seems to read and see how far that gets you. That is why I also mentioned it being up to the supervisor if .22 bulk ammo packed loosely in small cardboard box will fly. I figure people would be smart and take the advice of somebody who was actually trained on this, enforces it, and will be the one to confiscate it instead of a vaguely written paragraph on the internet. So like I said take your cardboard box of ammo to the airport and see how far it gets you or take my advice that defines that vague paragraph a little better and I bet you will have a heck of a better chance at making it to your destination with your ammo.

[Art Eatman]

Esky, everything a person says here at THR is public domain, insofar as personal commentaries. Cites of copyrighted material are different, of course; credit must be given.

I suggest saving the URL of the first page of the thread. You can include it in an email. You can download and print out a thread and edit as you choose, or you can put it into a Word file and edit and then print it...

Art

[Andrew Rothman]

Crewchief:

If you want to know exactly where these laws are located well I can tell you that they are both Federal Aviation Regulations and in the TSA Screening Standard Operating Procedure. Both are considered sensitive security information books so it is impossible for you to actually get a hard copy in writing.

Baloney.

FAA regs are NOT secret documents.

Seriously, how can I follow the rules if I cannot read them? I just have to take some jackbooted thug's word for what is allowed and what is not?

The sole criteria for what I may do is the TSA/FAA regs plus the airline policy.

Any other interference by you or your staff is blatantly illegal.

[Oleg Volk]

You certainly may refer to this thread. The only caveat is that it may evolve by the time the recepient of your letter reads it.

[Esky]

Thanks, Oleg, Pax, and Art.

I'll do my best to live up to the high standards of The High Road.

And I'll post my letter here when I've got it finished.

Esky
sharpening his quill

[Esky]

R. Denis Wauchope
[address/phone cut]
Email denisw@adelphia.net

May 29, 2004

Representative Randy “Duke” Cunningham
2350 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, DC 20515-0550
(202) 225-5452
(202) 225-2558 Fax

Re: Authority of TSA Staff

Dear Rep. Cunningham,

As you know from my previous letters and emails to you, I am (besides being one of your strong supporters!) very interested in matters pertaining to the Second Amendment, which interest I know you share.

Some time ago I visited Florida, where I purchased some ammunition at a gun show, which I intended to bring with me back to California for use with my revolver. I had contacted American Airlines before my flight and was told that it was acceptable to take ammunition on the flight, provided that it was placed in Hold Baggage and that I declared this ammunition at check-in. (I was not travelling with any firearms, just the ammunition.)

When I got to the check-in counter, I found that I hadn’t got the whole story; I declared the ammunition as advised, and the ticket agent called over a Transportation Security Administration (TSA) agent who then advised me that the ammo had to be “in the original box.” The ammo that I had was indeed in the original packaging… but that was two sealed plastic bags, not boxes.

According to the agent, who was quite professional and polite about the matter, there was nothing I could do except surrender this ammunition to him for disposal (back in the days before all the additional security, I would have had the option of giving it to my sister to ship to me, but nowadays family members can’t come to the check-in counter at Orlando Airport.)

I accepted the situation with as much grace as I could muster, and had forgotten about it until a “thread” came up on The High Road, an online discussion group centered around guns and the Second Amendment, in which a member had had some ammunition confiscated from him under similar circumstances.

Many of the members who took part in the discussion (found at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83369 ) thought that this sort of confiscation was simple theft. One member stated it thus: “You were robbed by an officer under color of law.” I tend to agree. (My member name on The High Road is “Esky” if you read this thread, which I hope you will.)

Then I did some investigation, and found on the TSA’s website the following, under the heading Air Travel – Prohibited Items: ( found at http://www.tsa.gov/public/interweb/assetlibrary/Permitted_Prohibited_12_18_2003.pdf )

Prohibited items are weapons, explosives, incendiaries, and include items that are seemingly harmless but may be used as weapons—the so-called “dual use” items. You may not bring these items to security checkpoints without authorization.

If you bring a prohibited item to the checkpoint, you may be criminally and/or civilly prosecuted or, at the least, asked to rid yourself of the item. A screener and/or Law Enforcement Officer will make this determination, depending on what the item is and the circumstances. This is because bringing a prohibited item to a security checkpoint—even accidentally—is illegal.

Your prohibited item may be detained for use in an investigation and, if necessary, as evidence in your criminal and/or civil prosecution. If permitted by the screener or Law Enforcement Officer, you may be allowed to: consult with the airlines for possible assistance in placing the prohibited item in checked baggage; withdraw with the item from the screening checkpoint at that time; make other arrangements for the item, such as taking it to your car; or, voluntarily abandon the item. Items that are voluntarily abandoned cannot be recovered and will not be returned to you.


The following chart outlines items that are permitted and items that are prohibited in your carry-on or checked baggage. You should note that some items are allowed in your checked baggage, but not your carry-on. Also pay careful attention to the “Notes” included at the bottom of each section – they contain important information about restrictions.

The prohibited and permitted items chart is not intended to be all-inclusive and is updated as necessary. To ensure everyone’s security, the screener may determine that an item not on the prohibited items chart is prohibited. In addition, the screener may also determine that an item on the permitted chart is dangerous and therefore may not be brought through the security checkpoint.

The chart applies to flights originating within the United States. Please check with your airline or travel agent for restrictions at destinations outside of the United States.

For updates and for more information, call our Consumer Response Center toll-free at 1-866-289-9673 or email PrepareForTakeoff@dhs.gov.
(Emphasis mine.)



Then, in the following chart, under the heading Guns and Firearms, I found that “If ammunition is permitted, [by the airline] it must be declared to the airline at check-in. Small arms ammunitions for personal use must be securely packed in fiber, wood or metal boxes, or other packaging specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition. Ask about limitations or fees, if any, that apply.”

From that, it appears that the agent was incorrect when he said that ammo had to be “in the original box.” From what I’ve learned, though, that’s the only way I would attempt to carry it now. Not that I have any comeback, if it is confiscated, regardless.

So now I’ve found a lot more things to be concerned about than I had started with:

• TSA agents have no limits to their authority (according to their own information as given)
• Ammunition (and guns, or any other property, even if the airline agrees to carry it) may be confiscated at the whim of any TSA agent or LEO, who does not have to justify his or her action
• Travellers carrying guns or ammo should get “authorization” (from who?) before arriving at the airport security checkpoint
• Law abiding travellers, even though they are citizens, may be subject to criminal and/or civil prosecution just for possessing legal firearms and/or ammo when checking in, regardless of packaging (unless they are “authorized” by… somebody, I guess, who probably also isn’t accountable)
• Items that are “voluntarily” abandoned cannot be recovered and will not be returned. (And who gets this property, or the profits from the sale of this so-called abandoned property?)

Please don’t get me wrong; I realize that security measures are necessary, and no one wants to ever have anything like 9-11 happening again. But I certainly don’t think that giving unlimited authority to agents of the TSA is wise, or necessary. And I also realize that the points I have raised are worst-case scenarios (at least I hope that they are!)

Don’t you think that there should be some way that an impartial board, or a judge, could determine (or review) whether confiscation of someone’s property was actually required? I’m sure you have heard from some of your other constituents that many things “go missing” out of people’s luggage, since we no longer can effectively lock our belongings—what can be done about this problem? How are the “screeners” screened?

And how can I, or anyone, possibly abide by all these regulations when so many of them are contradictory?

I would appreciate your reponse on the above matters, but would also appreciate your discretion (as I don’t want to be put on the TSA’s list of undesirables—flying’s bad enough already, and I avoid it whenever possible.)


Sincerely,


R. Denis Wauchope
AKA Esky on The High Road


OK, folks- this is it so far. I know it's too long-winded, so suggestions on cutting would be appreciated, as would suggestions on content. (The formatting here on THR is slightly different than the printed version.)

Esky
who's now going for a walk on the beach... to reflect on Memorial Day

[The Real Hawkeye]

Good letter, and well written, but I think it is a stretch to describe what happened to us as theft, as I'm pretty sure that if we chose not to board the plane, they would have allowed us to leave with our ammo. We were just not permitted to check it in our luggage packaged as it was.

[crewchief]

Matt Payne,

Your right the FAA regs are not classified, but the TSA SOP is which is our guide on everything. Now I use the word guide because a TSA agent does have the right to interfere with anything they choose. That is my point, if a agent wants to confiscate the shoes off of your feet because they are suspicious to him then he can without having to give nor make any excuses. Call me a Jackbooted Thug all you want, I was just trying to give advice that would make peoples lives a little easier going through a check point. Apparently you have no problem with others that are giving completely wrong advice on this thread but I do. If you were a trained professional on a subject that people were handing out completely bad advice on don't you think you would step in and try to correct and clear up some issues. Calling me insults is not taking THR but trying to help people when you have no obligation to help them is. One more thing, don't ever accuse someone of doing something illegal when you have no idea of what you are talking about.


To the Moderators: I am sorry if this thread is starting to look like a flame war, but I am simply responding to insults given by Mr. Payne. I also don't appreciate being accused of illegal acts when the accuser has no idea of the authority or internal laws that govern the TSA. I also have another TSA agent with me right now who would also like to state that he does not appreciate the comments made by members here on THR about things that they have no idea about.

[Esky]

Hawkeye--

I agree with you. I certainly didn't feel that the agent in my case was taking my ammo for his own use, or stealing it in any way.

However, the letter that I started to write turned into something quite different once I found how much power the TSA has over all of us. I certainly didn't know that just taking a securely locked gun or ammo to the airport could result in confiscation or arrest, with no stated right to appeal a decision made by any agent or LEO.

And I'm sure that in most cases there would be no problem, but what alarms me greatly is that IF you got one of the (hopefully very few) crooked TSA agents, there's nothing you could do about it. Security concerns seem to override everything.

I do appreciate the comments made by crewchief, and I'll certainly try to abide by the written rules & regulations (and the secret ones too, if I can find out what they are) but IMHO what crewchief just said,

Now I use the word guide because a TSA agent does have the right to interfere with anything they choose. That is my point, if a agent wants to confiscate the shoes off of your feet because they are suspicious to him then he can without having to give nor make any excuses.

proves that my concern is justified. I only hope that others in the TSA are honest, (as I believe crewchief to be) but there's no way to be sure of that, is there. So any agent can confiscate anything he or she chooses, with no accountability. Is that correct, crewchief?

Esky
who is not planning any airplane trips carrying anything valuable

[The Real Hawkeye]

Esky, I understand what you are saying. You have a legit point, as far as it goes. My point concerned only the suggestion of theft when, in my and your cases, we were merely denied the ability to check something. I know it amounts to losing it, but that's only because we chose to proceed rather than taking our stuff back and leaving the airport. We are always free to rent a car to travel from Orlando to Huston. Not that I agree with all TSA regs, but do you see my point?

[Art Eatman]

Kinda hard for me to get to Germany to see my son without flying. And, at my age, the odds are against my going to Africa for a hunt--not that I've ever worried about that.

But when Joe Foss' Medal of Honor was taken from him at the Phoenix airport because "it had sharp points on it", which an 83-year-old man could have used to hurt somebody, I figured the inmates had taken over the asylum.

It's a philosophical thing: I won't fly unless I absolutely have to.

:D Drivin's cheaper, and I can stop off along the way to visit folks--and go huntin' or shootin' if we want to. :D

Art

[gryphon]

If we sit by and let people like the PO get away with things like this, then we really are no better than them.

It's things like this that lead me to believe that when the time comes, and it will, for the gun grabbers to drop by every house and collect all the guns, those of us that are willing to fight and die for our convictions and rights will die alone and unremembered.

Sometimes this place makes me sick.

[geegee]

If you were a trained professional on a subject that people were handing out completely bad advice on don't you think you would step in and try to correct and clear up some issues
I can appreciate your point of view crewchief, but I have to tell you that as someone who manages a multi-state region in my job, most of the TSA folks I've encountered do little to give the impression that they are "trained professionals." My last flight out of DFW is an example.

I went through the baggage check, and was pulled over to take off my shoes (I know many people will do that voluntarily, but my opinion is I have a 50/50 shot that my shoes will clear the alarms, so I'll keep them on). I sat down and took off my shoes, and stuck my feet out to be wanded. "No, no" says the TSA agent. "Don't point your toes up."
"Huh?" says I. He says "Don't point your toes up ...point them out. " :confused: Well, that's a new one.

Then I had to stand up and get wanded. This time it was my chin that was creating a security concern. "Look up, with your chin up."
I turned halfway, put one hand on my hip, the other under my chin, and made a perfect "little teapot." "Better?" said I, just a little bit aggravated. I guess that was lost on him, because he said "Yeah-fine." Unbelievable.

Now all of this was completely new to me, and it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone why my Platinum frequent flyer status has now reached Cardboard. Having to deal with the inconsistencies of the rules and regulations that are now accepted by the once a year traveler, makes me nuts. Add into the equation that I'm a law abiding citizen who would like to check a handgun when I fly, and it's easy to see why this latest addition to the Federal alphabet soup agencies can generate such strong feelings.

[crewchief]

Geegee,

I have to agree with you that most TSA agents can hardly be called professionals. There are a few good ones although very rare especially at the larger airports where information flow seems to be a problem as well as proper training. That screener you encountered was completely wrong but it could have been his preference for you to point your toes. Just like I have seen screeners that like people to spread their legs farther apart then others while wanding. That is why we came up with those mats with the feet painted on them so that we can have some form of standardization of how far apart the legs should be. Believe me as a supervisor I am constantly correcting screeners on their procedures. Like I have one who constantly touches the passenger with the handwand even though the standard is two inches from the body. I have been telling him this for two years and he still does it time to time and it makes me want to scream. Trust me I have written him up and counseled him many times but I still do not have the authority to fire him nor is it a fireable offense. We do have some less than smart put it that way screeners, but we also have some equally less than smart supervisors and big bosses. That is the truly scary thing:uhoh: is that the company that did the hiring for the TSA was not to selective on the process. I mean sure you had to read and write and pass a battery of tests but none of those tested for common sense. Believe me I am leaving in a month and moving to another state and I will never I repeat never work for such a group of idiots again. So the next time I pass through an airport as a regular Joe I will have to just hang my head and shake it back and forth.:banghead:

[The Real Hawkeye]

gryphon said: If we sit by and let people like the PO get away with things like this, then we really are no better than them.

It's things like this that lead me to believe that when the time comes, and it will, for the gun grabbers to drop by every house and collect all the guns, those of us that are willing to fight and die for our convictions and rights will die alone and unremembered.

Sometimes this place makes me sick.Well, there is a huge difference between not allowing someone to take ammo in checked luggage and coming house to house to collect people's guns. First of all, I could have said to the cop, "You know what, I think I'll miss my flight. Let me have my ammo back and I'm going to arrange a rental car to get me to my destination, rather than lose those expensive eight rounds of ammo." In other wards, it was not theft by a cop. Somebody had to take custody of them if they weren't allowed, and it is asking a lot for them to arrange a system by which you could later retrieve them with a receipt. Yes, being lectured on my choice of ammo by a police officer pissed me off, but they are allowed to have their regulations on how we have to package our ammo to be checked. Eight rounds at the airport was not the hill I chose to die on. You'll have to pardon me if that means that, in you assessment, I don't qualify as a patriot.

[tfurey19]

HOW TO ROB A GUN OWNER IN FRONT OF HIM AND HAVE HIM THANK YOU FOR IT.

[bogie]

Shoulda got a receipt.

[org]

(quote)Well, there is a huge difference between not allowing someone to take ammo in checked luggage and coming house to house to collect people's guns. First of all, I could have said to the cop, "You know what, I think I'll miss my flight. Let me have my ammo back and I'm going to arrange a rental car to get me to my destination, rather than lose those expensive eight rounds of ammo." In other wards, it was not theft by a cop. Somebody had to take custody of them if they weren't allowed, and it is asking a lot for them to arrange a system by which you could later retrieve them with a receipt. Yes, being lectured on my choice of ammo by a police officer pissed me off, but they are allowed to have their regulations on how we have to package our ammo to be checked. Eight rounds at the airport was not the hill I chose to die on. You'll have to pardon me if that means that, in you assessment, I don't qualify as a patriot.(end quote)

Hawkeye, some fights are worth it, some aren't. Sounds like you decided this one wasn't worth it and I agree. I doubt the pro gun movement will be set back much by the actions of one cop or one gunowner anyway.

org

[Splat Shot]

Real Hawkeye, you stated the ammo was not in the original box which to me means you transferred it from the original to another.

Sounds like you just might have given a thief a few rounds of hollow points with your finger prints all over them. Sure hope he doesn't shoot someone with them. Hopefully, he is only a thief.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Splat says: Sounds like you just might have given a thief a few rounds of hollow points with your finger prints all over them. Sure hope he doesn't shoot someone with them. Hopefully, he is only a thief.Interesting point. I had never thought about it that way before. Oh well, you know what they say about hindsight. Seems unlikely, however, even if interesting. You should right murder mystery novels. :D

[warriorsociologist]

I dream of they day some wannabie tries this on me...

[carebear]

Esky,

Maybe the airport you were in is set up differently, but here in Anchorage the check-in desk is not behind the "security checkpoint". When the regs say "sec. cp" they mean the point where you are wanded, have your carry-on luggage checked, your papers are demanded, ya know, where the absolutely USELESS feel-good BS "security" takes place.

Typically the check-in counter, where they take your checked bags and issue boarding passes and the like, isn't "sterile". You can carry anything to that counter that is legal (by state law anyway), you can even carry concealed. You aren't in the "sterile area" by the boarding gates where random half-adze confiscations can take place at will.

Again, that's here anyway. I had to chuckle when they were doing the random stops on the access road, what were they going to do, shake their fingers at my legal trunk gun and carry concealed piece if I happened to be chosen? :rolleyes:

Given that the failure rates for the vaunted TSA are the same as the old private screeners the whole scenario just pisses me off in an amused way.

[big poppa]

Kinda hard for me to get to Germany to see my son without flying. And, at my age, the odds are against my going to Africa for a hunt--not that I've ever worried about that.

But when Joe Foss' Medal of Honor was taken from him at the Phoenix airport because "it had sharp points on it", which an 83-year-old man could have used to hurt somebody, I figured the inmates had taken over the asylum.

It's a philosophical thing: I won't fly unless I absolutely have to.

:D Drivin's cheaper, and I can stop off along the way to visit folks--and go huntin' or shootin' if we want to. :D

Art
oh man! if i had been there and seen that ,i would have come unglued to the point they would have had to hold me down and sedate me!somebody would have gone down!to do that to a genuine hero is nothing but sheer stupidity that deservers an a## whoopin! :fire:

[Little Loudmouth]

Even if he is a cop, usually something like this is called THEFT! Last time I heard, that's illegal. I would have told him so immediately.

[Esky]

carebear,

Thanks for reminding me about this thread. It's been quite a while since it was active (but now here we go again!) You've made a very good point, I wasn't thinking about the security checkpoint as being after the checkin point. (Get the point?) :)

The airport where I had my ammo difficulty was in Orlando, FL, and at that airport travellers have to take a short tramway trip before you get to the checkin desk where guns, ammo etc are declared, and only travellers are allowed to take the tramride (have to show a ticket, IIRC.) So although it isn't a 'security' issue as such it does mean that once you're at the checkin desk you are pretty well committed... either you go flyin' or you have to leave. No other options available.

Here in CA... well, <sigh> I wish I could take my "legal trunk gun and carry concealed piece" but here any guns in the trunk have to be unloaded... pistols have to be locked up in a container in the trunk, separate from the ammo... and here in San Diego County, there really isn't any such thing as concealed carry if you're not a movie star, politician or gooood friend of the top cop, which means there isn't really any such thing for most of us. (Hopefully Jim March will be changing that matter REAL SOON NOW! at least I hope so!)

Just to followup- I did send the letter, pretty much as written back on p.4, off to Congressman Cunningham (R-CA), back in May.

And I haven't received any reply.

Which is odd, as I've sent him letters several times before and had pretty quick answers-- maybe he's had someone in his staff looking into the matter or gathering info, or maybe he's just ignored it, or put it into the "too hard" basket. Dunno! :confused:

I'll send him an email, reminding him about this letter (which was sent snail mail) and see if that stirs him into action.

Esky

[RevDisk]

Something is wrong when you ask to see the rules you have to follow, and you're told they're secret. How can one follow the law when one can't find out what it is?

[Hawkmoon]

...

[Brett Bellmore]

This whole thread makes me want to take up handloading, just so that I can be robbed of some plus, plus, plus, PLUS, pressure ammo. :cuss:

Useless for-show "security" is bad enough. Useless for-show "security" that inconveniences and degrades people is worse. Useless for-show "security" that allows, yes, jack booted thugs to rob people with impunity is several steps over the line.

Crewchief, your helpful advice amounts to: "Bring KY jelly". And if you don't like being called a jack booted thug, try not BEING one.

[Rickstir]

I carry JHP in both my 92FS and Taurus .357 snubby. That is the type of ammo carried by my local law enforcement. No scrubhouse lawyer can accuse me of using extra evil ammo.

[Sam Adams]

"P.S. Regarding the guy who keeps asking which airport and airline, my answer is that the complaint that was the topic of my original post had to do with the attitude of the P.O., not the airline policy or the airport. I have a personal policy not to give specifics on the Internet that could connect me with any particular location. Sorry."

This P.O. is probably still working at the same airport. I hardly think that giving us the name of the airport (or at least the name of the city) will connect you with anything. If you don't want to give the airline's name, no biggee, as it wasn't the airline that did anything wrong. But at least give the rest of us some knowledge of where to be careful.

As to what to do, I would file a complaint now. Truth be told, I'd have filed it at the time. No need for theatrics, just ask for his superior and file the complaint. Oh, and ask for a signed receipt, and that a witness co-sign it. Be 100% business about it. Let the officer explain to his superiors and IA why he took the ammo. It'll make him think about it the next time the opportunity presents itself.

[Sam Adams]

I would go back with a box of sabotaged hollow points and hope he took them as well. Its hard to be a police officer missing a hand.

I hope that you would feel comfortable doing that for 8 rounds of hollowpoint. I wouldn't be. And what happens if he gives his gun, loaded with your sabotaged rounds, to his wife, girlfriend or little kid, or to another cop who follows the Constitution and basic morality?

There are ways to pay the cop back without resorting to that kind of stuff. Filing a complaint would be tops on my list.

Oh, by the way, you have just left a record on the Internet that you are willing to do something of this sort. If you ever do it, your post may come back to haunt you. I'd strongly suggest that you not ever do anything of this sort, if for no other reason than to keep your sorry butt out of prison.

[blackrazor]

Sabotaged rounds... now that's what I call a "cop-killer" bullet!



Seriously though, don't actually do this. It would be illegal. Only cops are allowed to break the law.

[Kermit911]

Fight it in court!!!

[Swamprabbit]

I guess that I wouldn't have wanted to be confrontational with the cops over 8 rounds then but I would have noted his badge number and name and write a letter to that agency when I got somewhere.