[Argo]

Can anyone recommend a .223 semi auto rifle, that's not banned in California?

[Warren]

Kel-Tech Su 16.

I cannot endorse it myself because I have not shot one, but I hear good things.

[Skunkabilly]

Welcome to my life :(

[50 Shooter]

If you gotta have one, there's the FAB10.

A rifle I would never buy or shoot, Mini-14.

A rifle I have never shot but if you buy one, make sure it's a newer model or an old one that's been upgraded, Robinson Arms M96. The reason for the upgrades is the FACT that there were some older ones that went KABOOM. You can get it here but it will be without a pistol grip.

If all else fails, buy a bolt gun. It will be far more accurate then these three.

[stealthmode]

i have a mini 14 i bought in 2000 with at least 3000 rounds not one problem. the only problem is the accuracy is not there like in my bushmaster because the mini 14 barrel is so skinny.

[dave3006]

The people bad mouthing the Mini-14 do not know what they are talking about.

CUT THE BARREL DOWN TO 16" - You will have a 2-3 MOA gun with no POI shift as the gun heats up.

It will be the most reliable gun you have ever owned if you use factory or PMI mags.

It will do the job. If someone tells you that "I had one. It was so inaccurate... " They did not cut the barrel down so their experience is irrelevent.

[ShaiVong]

It will do the job. If someone tells you that "I had one. It was so inaccurate... " They did not cut the barrel down so their experience is irrelevent.

If I bought a rifle that needed gunsmithing to work correctly then it is fairly close to a POS. If that one modification makes a huge difference, then the company should be doing that to it before its sent out.

The fact is you need to drop another $100 or greater on a Mini 14 for barrel cutting/recrowning and muzzle break and a new gas block to get it to where it SHOULD be stock! Already on top of what IMO is an overpriced rifle to begin with. So if somebody buys a mini expecting it to not be a project gun and is disappointed with its factory issued condition, I think thats hardly irrelevent. Not everyone knows about all the after market work that must be done to make it a worthy rifle.

[R.H. Lee]

Unless you absolutely positively HAVE to have a .223, why not consider an SKS, Yugo or other flavor? The 7.62 x 39 has a greater range than the .223/5.56 and ammo is cheaper and plentiful.

[rde]

IMHO the mini-14 will in fact get the job done. I agree with most that for the money there are better values available given price and performance. But with the limited options available to those trapped behind enemy lines in Ca. the mini-14 is something that they can in fact make work. It is first of all legal to buy and own there. It is in fact very reliable with stock 5 round mags (and in my experience the pro-mag 10 rounders...though I haven't tried the PMI or Thermolds). And you can most certainly thump center mass at 100 yards without trouble (that is not to say that it is accurate...but accurate enough to get the job done). If in Ca. I would prefer other choices but I would be able to made do with the mini-14. Would select the standard version with the better rear iron sight (non-ranch version), add a muzzle brake that reportadly helps shrink groups, and a couple of pro-mag 10 rounders. Break it in right while dialing in the sights as best as I could get and then practice.

[TCD]

Unless you absolutely positively HAVE to have a .223, why not consider an SKS, Yugo or other flavor? The 7.62 x 39 has a greater range than the .223/5.56 and ammo is cheaper and plentiful.


You sure about that?


I have a 7.63 X 39 rifle, and as much as I love it, I would disagree


edit:

I disagree about the range part. My rifle starts getting serious drop past 250+yards compared to a .223 or even 5.45


however ammo is cheap

[ShaiVong]

IMHO the mini-14 will in fact get the job done. I agree with most that for the money there are better values available given price and performance. But with the limited options available to those trapped behind enemy lines in Ca. the mini-14 is something that they can in fact make work.

Oh I think the mini can do a great job once the work is done to it, and its a slick looking gun. I just take issue with sneering at somebodys opinion of performance pre-aftermarket work.

[thefitzvh]

Skunky, you're in OC... do you have your permit yet?

[MaceWindu]

""Unless you absolutely positively HAVE to have a .223, why not consider an SKS, Yugo or other flavor? The 7.62 x 39 has a greater range than the .223/5.56 and ammo is cheaper and plentiful.""



Ahhhhh.No..... the .223 has a greater range than the 7.62x39 easily. Ballistic damage done by the 7.62 @ 200 - 250 yrds is greater...but AR's win beyond that range EASILY....


MaceWindu...

[Poodleshooter]

I have a 7.63 X 39 rifle, and as much as I love it, I would disagree
Round these parts, 7,62x39 runs about $80 per 1000 for russian ammo, and about $95-110 for .223
Maximum range depends on the ammo involved. A 35gr Vmax in a .223 is going to run out of gas a lot quicker than a 90gr VLD load.

[TCD]

^^^^


I edited my original post

"edit:

I disagree about the range part. My rifle starts getting serious drop past 250+yards compared to a .223 or even 5.45


however ammo is cheap"

[No Trespassing]

The Mini-14 is fine for certain applications, especially in CA where our choices are limited.

Are you planning on shooting in a competition where you need to shoot the pimples on a gnats ass at 200 yards?

Or do you just want a reliable gun that can hit, let's say, a grapefruit 200 yards (which mine does out of the box all day long)?

If you want a self defense gun the Mini-14 works. It'll hit a human sized taget plenty far out. No you won't be a sniper with one, but it hits the paper, can's or what ever with factory mags. I've got over 10K rnds through mine with no problems.

Would I like a scary accurate, pistol grip, folding stock, secret agent style, black as night, polymer/titanium/unobtanium ported bull barelled, semi auto, 50rnd capacity gun? Sure. But I'm in Kali. So my $500.00 Mini-14 works just fine for now.

[R.H. Lee]

Ahhhhh.No..... the .223 has a greater range than the 7.62x39 easily. Ballistic damage done by the 7.62 @ 200 - 250 yrds is greater...but AR's win beyond that range EASILY....

Unfortunately, I'm at work and unable to access any ballistics tables, so I can't provide hard data to disagree. However, a 122 gr bullet moving at 2500+fps should outdistance a 55 gr bullet moving at 3200 or so fps. Over twice the weight and about a third less velocity. Bullet drop would be more with the 7.62, but terminal ballistics (and accuracy) would be better. No?

[MaceWindu]

Then why are most of the HighPower competitions won by AR's? I have not heard of one highpower competition won with a 7.62x39?

http://battlerifles.com/viewtopic.php?t=31313&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30


Read the thread by CornBread2 about 1/2 way down the page.....


The .223 is SUPERIOR to the 7.62x39 after about 250 meters!!! Sorry guys an AR is SUPERIOR to the AK after about 300 meters EASILY!!!

Read the thread.....

MaceWindu

[R.H. Lee]

Then why are most of the HighPower competitions won by AR's? I have not heard of one highpower competition won with a 7.62x39?

I can't get to that website right now either, so I'll take your word for it. By "highpower competitions" you mean the ability to PUNCH HOLES IN PAPER? Granted, the AR is a more accurate weapon than the the AK, (and also more prone to malfunction) but I don't think that is what we're talking about. I thought we're talking about terminal ballistics at longer ranges-ie killing power.

[itgoesboom]

SU16 or mini-14 would be the two real options. Of those, I would probably take the SU16. A little less expensive, and a little more accurate.

I love the feel and the concept of the mini-14, but, man, come'on Ruger, put a real barrel on there.

I live in Oregon, so I have more choices, but when I was initially looking at the Mini-14, I decided on a SKS instead. Less than 1/2 the price, more reliable and more accurate.

I.G.B.

[9 m&m]

I cant remember the name of the rifle exactly but they have a new California legal AR-15. I guess you have to take out the rear pin every time tou load it because it had a fixed ten round top loading mag. Looked just like an AR just w/o the "evil" looking mag stickin out the bottom. Oh yeah its a .223 also...............duh.:D :neener:

[atek3]

unless you are using it for self defense, get a FAB10, then when you move to a free state, sell the lower and buy a bushmaster lower.

atek3

[TCD]

I can't get to that website right now either, so I'll take your word for it. By "highpower competitions" you mean the ability to PUNCH HOLES IN PAPER? Granted, the AR is a more accurate weapon than the the AK, (and also more prone to malfunction) but I don't think that is what we're talking about. I thought we're talking about terminal ballistics at longer ranges-ie killing power.

bullet drop on the 39 again gets pretty darn bad after 300m, which also means it looses a lot more of its energy

by severe I think its starts dropping over 18" *

* I think

[MaceWindu]

http://img62.photobucket.com/albums/v188/Triggerman/ASItop001.bmp
http://img62.photobucket.com/albums/v188/Triggerman/ASIbarrel001.bmp
http://img62.photobucket.com/albums/v188/Triggerman/ASIside001.bmp
http://img62.photobucket.com/albums/v188/Triggerman/ASItarget001.bmp
Thats from about 80 yrds and that is a DIME for reference.
Okay, fellas!! Put up your dukes!!!


ASI mini 14:

- 9/10 of an inch bull barrel, teflon coated, Douglas, 20 inches
- Bedded in 3 points
- Recoil buffer
- 3.5lbs trigger job
- Enlarged gas block
- CQB Solutions 3 point sling
- 11 degree crown
- GUARANTEED 1/2 MOA from ASI

Reliable, accurate. This will SMOKE any SKS or AK....:neener:


MaceWindu (Yes, it does shoot a purple flame from the barrel!!!)

[MaceWindu]

http://img62.photobucket.com/albums/v188/Triggerman/ASIfront1001.bmp

Reliable as the Garand and the M-14 (Hence, mini-14). Won't jam like the AR when you blow dust on it and its a TACK DRIVAH!!!:D

MaceWindu (Don't need the force when I have this!!!)

[ShaiVong]

Thats a NICE looking rifle there Mace, how much did the extras cost you? I really really like the Mini 14 design, but the sloppy implementation done by Ruger annoys me.

I would take exception with, and I do understand hyperbole, this statement:

Won't jam like the AR when you blow dust on it

Im closing in on 1000 rounds of wolf in my AR w/o cleaning and no malfs now or ever.

[dave3006]

ShaiVong, the man lives in California. The only real option is the Mini-14. The only valid complaint on the Mini is the accuracy problem. I told him how to fix it.

People buy 1911s and dump tons of money into them. People buy Remington 700s and Smith and Wesson Revolvers then spend money on action jobs because this is what it takes to make the gun perform.

The Mini is not perfect. But, mine is a 2-3 MOA gun that has NEVER EVER malfunctioned with cheap Wolf ammo in over 3500 rounds. I can't say I saw the same performance on the dozens of ARs that have choked in my Rifle classes.

The Mini will do the job.

[MaceWindu]

I think AR's are GREAT!!! Just pullin at cha a bit since we can't have'm in Cali:rolleyes:

So I got the nect best thing. The action is basically the same as the Garand/ M-14 so its super reliable.

ASI does a great deal to clean up what Ruger should have.


I bought the rifle from a guy who was just dumpin it for about $400. I then put about another $750 for the work. It's SUPER accurate....I only use a Halo Sight because I like the tactical stuff. If I can see it, I can hit it.

Cali is debating bringing back the AR , when they do. I will be gettin one!!

Also, ASI just shipped my second enhanced Mini TODAY!!!:neener:

MaceWindu

[itgoesboom]

Mace,

Now that is how I envision a Mini-14. Now lets see you do that with a Mini-14 out of the box.

If ruger made the Mini-14 like that, I would have bought it a long time ago.

I.G.B.

[MaceWindu]

Your right. Out of the box its lacking....but don't most of us here on this forum enhance almost all of our toys?


Dont most of us get match barrels, sights, for the sole purpose of enhancing reliability, accuracy?

This Mini of mine is schweet....WAIT TILL I POST THE PICS OF THE SECOND ONE!!!

The only down side?:scrutiny: When you order one its a 6 month wait:fire:


Like I said it will be here TOMORROW:evil:

YEEEEEEHAAAAAWWW!!!

MaceWindu

[larryw]

My SU-16 is accurate, reliable, light and fun. A FrankenRuger Mini-14 is probably more accurate, but for that money, I'll go with a M1A instead. ;)

[ShaiVong]

I'm not trying to bust your chops Dave, we're all on the same side here and we respect each others opinions.. The Mini is a great rifle, and it has great potential. It just got under my skin when you discount somebodys experience out of hand.

If you disagree, everything goes smoother if you say "Well I think differently because X,Y,Z." Rather than "You didn't do X so we dont care what you think about Y".

Am I being too pissy?



The people bad mouthing the Mini-14 do not know what they are talking about.

They did not cut the barrel down so their experience is irrelevent.

[Cyberdyne systems]

the US M1 Carbine would be a good CA. legal semi-auto rifle, I would take an M1 carbine or SKS instead of a mini 14

[itgoesboom]

Your right. Out of the box its lacking....but don't most of us here on this forum enhance almost all of our toys?

Well, some people here do. Of the 9 firearms that I either own, or have owned, the only modification I have ever added was a sidesaddle to my mossberg 500.

Other than that, I expect my firearms to work out of the box.

Especially when it costs $500 nib. I could purchase 4 Yugo SKS's for the price of one Mini-14, and all of them would work, and would be as accurate as the average Mini.

If Ruger can't make that rifle shoot more accuratly out of the box, than they should atleast cut the price to under $350. Than I would consider one.

I.G.B.

[Skunkabilly]

MACE that is sweet!

The skunk likes :cool:

[Gordon]

I got all the assault rifles I need before the Kali ban, that said I had good luck with Mini-14s thru the years, from the first 180 series thru ranch rifles in 7.62x39. They shoot as accurate as the commie stuff IMHO, if I wasn't a gun nut I wouldn't be afraid to have one by any means!

[MaceWindu]

""Other than that, I expect my firearms to work out of the box.""



It's not just about "working out of the box". But performing at the level that "I" want it to perform....more so than just making a projectile fly from the barrel. I want a tack drivah!!!:D


MaceWindu

[artherd]

I got all the assault rifles I need before the Kali ban

Good for you, I was six. (that's a knock at the ban, not you of course. AW owners rock. Wish I was smart enough to get an AR back when I could.)

The mini-14 is a very good gun with just a little bit of work. ASI does some great things with them (we're talking SUB-moa.)


The AR is a better design, but sadly we're denied the EVIL Pistol Grip. (and even thumbhole stocks.)


I have heard the SU-16 is as inaccurate out-of-the-box as the Mini-14, only there is no pool of $50 modifications that will turn it into a reasonably-accurate shooter. On the bright side, you can use your 30 round AR mags you've had in your garage since before 1/1/2000

[ShaiVong]

Could you take an AR15 and remove the pistol grip, then file or modify the block it screw into so it can no longer be fitted with one? :confused:

[Michael Zeleny]

http://www.hkpro.com/sl7helmet.jpg
The HK SL6 is compact, rugged, reliable, and will shoot MOA at 100 yards all day with the right ammunition. The HK05 claw scope mount delivers repeatable alignment, but is expensive, listing at $384. The only drawbacks are the propensity to rust when looked at crosswise, the location of the safety lever inaccessible to the shooting hand, and the availability of an identically sized SL7 in .308 Winchester, a real man's caliber.
http://www.hkpro.com/sl6.htm
http://remtek.com/arms/hk/civ/sl/sl.htm
http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=18839079
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976457043.htm

[MaceWindu]

Larryw wrote:

"My SU-16 is accurate, reliable, light and fun. A FrankenRuger Mini-14 is probably more accurate, but for that money, I'll go with a M1A instead."


You mean like this one!?:

http://img62.photobucket.com/albums/v188/Triggerman/Loaded1001.bmp
:D

You gotta understand that an accurized AR with the bells and whistles is gonna cost about the same as that MINI....

I have 2 great M1A's. But shooting the MINI is cheaper!!! Over time the cost balances out...

MaceWindu

[N3rday]

SU 16!!!
Small, light, compact, .223 semi. Built in bipod as well. Oh yeah, and it folds in half!
Shwing!

[El Rojo]

I haven't been hanging out in the Rifles Forum, so I apologize for not getting the best option to you sooner. :p

Here are the links to my FAB-10 stories. I really like mine.

Putting my FAB-10 together (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50514&highlight=fab10)

FAB-10 Range Report (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52682&highlight=fab10)

The FAB-10 Fake Magazine Project (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65714&highlight=fab10)

One thing you need to know up front, I haven't really messed with the stripper clips and reloading it in a hurry. My FAB-10 will only hold 9 rounds in the magazine if you want to load the rifle. What I mean is if you put 10 rounds in, the pressure on the bullet is so much that it won't go down enough for the bolt to slide backwards. In effect it is a 9 rounder. You could load a round in the chamber with the gun open and then put 9 in if you wanted. I mainly shoot squirrels with it so I am not in a huge hurry to reload.

The two best reasons to get a FAB-10 are this. 1) HOPE! Hope that some day you can set the FAB-10 aside and put on your legal regular AR-15 lower that is once again legal. 2) You can have all of the pre-ban features you want! Sure if the Federal AWB expires, everyone else is going to be able to do the same thing. However, right now I can order pre-ban uppers and legally put them on my gun. Miniscule in the grand scheme of things, but cool now for me. And to each his own.

Good luck.

[Farnham]

I too am stuck in California, and I feel your pain, I would love to have an AR. Or even a real flash-hider on my M1A!

If you don't want to spend the cash for an M1A, and want a FUN shooter, the Mini-14 is the way to go.

They're reliable, inexpensive, ammo's cheap, and very light and handy. Check out

http://www.perfectunion.com/forums/index.php?showforum=8

for some great "home gunsmithing" tips on accurizing one yourself, sometimes doing the work yourself is almost as much fun as burning up ammo!

that link didn't come out right, just go to http://www.perfectunion.com/forums and check the Ruger Mini-14 forum out!

[50 Shooter]

The reason I won't buy a mini-14 or shoot one, actually two reasons. My brother had his blow up in his face, luckily he wasn't hurt. My friend was shooting his rapid style from the hip and we heard a CHUNK! Yep, another mini bit the dust, sent it back to Ruger and they replaced it but never gave a reason why it failed. He was using factory Win. ammo at the time, doubt that had anything to do with it.

At least Ruger has a good return policy and customer service, buyer beware!

[ny32182]

A few comments in general on some of the ideas floating around here:

- Pretty much any box stock AR is more than capable of shooting groups like those pictured. Of course, a box stock AR costs more than a box stock mini-14. I've seen plenty more mini-14's jam than I have ARs. They seem to be quite reliable with the smaller mags, but I've never seen one that can reliably go through a mag of more than 10 rounds without a hangup. I don't own an AR or know anyone that owns one that isn't dead on nuts reliable. Just my experience.

- The combat effective range of .223 is a lot farther than that of 7.62x39. "Up close" they are pretty much a wash, perhaps a slight edge to 39 since it carries a little more energy up close. But once the range increases, its all .223, both accuracy and energywise, iirc. That doesn't mean 39 is a bad round at all, as the chances that you are ever going to be shooting at anything past 300 yards are... very remote. (assuming we are talking about shtf type stuff). I'd as soon grab my VEPR as an AR.

- If I were in california, I would have a FAB-10 and an accurized mini-14 with a lot of small mags.

[artherd]

Could you take an AR15 and remove the pistol grip, then file or modify the block it screw into so it can no longer be fitted with one?

Conciveably, you would not even need to go to the silly trouble of modifying or filing the reciver.

Just never bolt a Pistol Grip in.

Send the rifle to the CA DOJ for their inspection, and keep a copy with you, if you do something like this. It should be legal, however I am not giving you legal advice, that is for your lawyer.

[MaceWindu]

Quote:

"- Pretty much any box stock AR is more than capable of shooting groups like those pictured. Of course, a box stock AR costs more than a box stock mini-14. I've seen plenty more mini-14's jam than I have ARs. They seem to be quite reliable with the smaller mags, but I've never seen one that can reliably go through a mag of more than 10 rounds without a hangup. I don't own an AR or know anyone that owns one that isn't dead on nuts reliable. Just my experience."


#1: 20 round FACTORY Ruger mags are rare. So using after market 20 rounders that are garbage will cause a jam. I have 4 FACTORY mags that operate perfectly and never jam.

#2 The Mini-14 (hence miniature M14) has a gas system that is more reliable than a AR.

#3 The AR is a great platform, but the fact is they are very prone to jamming when dirt is in the action. Not just my opinion, read the after action reports in SOF magazine.

#4 Are you kidding? I WANT AN AR :evil: BUT IN THE PRK THATS A NO NO!

MaceWindu

[dave3006]

The AR and AK series are banned by type. Even if you get rid of the pistol grip, they are FAR more evil and deadly than the Mini-14 and SKS.

Mini-14: Shoots friendly .223 bullets
AR15: Shoots evil, mean .223 bullets.

SKS vs. AK: Ditto.

You must have to be fricken retarded to be a Kalifornia legislator!

[MaceWindu]

You're right.

Mini-14 .223's wont hurt as much as AR .223's. :scrutiny:

You wont bleed as much:rolleyes:

MaceWindu

[artherd]

The AR and AK series are banned by type. Even if you get rid of the pistol grip, they are FAR more evil and deadly than the Mini-14 and SKS.

Not true, however the law is worded to make it appear so.

This was firmed up in a court test-case.

The DOJ was ordered to DEFINE ALL BANNED RIFLES by stamping.

The 'ar and ak series' language is still in the law, they were ordered to define exactly what constituted this 'series' of guns. (and no, it is not 'any gun that takes AR parts'. It is a list of Catagory 3 stampings on recivers.)

[pbhome71]

Interesting.... Ban by stamping would be similar to the ban in '89, which is ban by name, yes?

If this is the case, there are some AK, and AR receivers which did not exist in 2000, but is available now.

Wouldn't those be available, if it is not in the evil configuration?

-Pat

[dave3006]

Artherd, I am open minded. Can you provide any references? Even better, can you tell me of any gun dealer that sells any type of "AR" receiver that I can buy? I will take the day off work and drive/fly there immediately.

This would be good news. But, I am skeptical.