Local debate I'm having with car guys on guns


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Night Guy
May 26, 2004, 12:39 AM
I don't know how many of you may be interested to see how my peers feel about gun laws. A friend of mine, Pushrod Pansy (who owns guns) wants to have a waiting period and required training to own firearms. I've tried to make my debate as clearly as possible, but even my shooting buddy (SI304) would be okay with more restrictive gun regulations.:(

http://www.indycarz.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11907&whichpage=2

My user ID is the number 13 on there. Feel free to read and critique my posts.

We have a rather sizeable amount of shooters on that board, but so many seem so misguided. I honestly feel a bit overwhelmed by their thoughts sometimes.

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entropy
May 26, 2004, 01:04 AM
Try talking to them about where gun control is going toward by rephrasing it about cars.;) The SUV hoopla is a good conversation starter.

Anti- 'car' thoughts:" Who needs a supercharged gas hog like a blown 1969 Mustang 429 Cobra Jet, anyway? That will just end up getting a family member killed..."

" ...those cheap imports are just designed for one thing: To kill people..."

"a carjacker could get behind the wheel and run you over with your own car...":rolleyes:

"Cars cause more deaths than....":scrutiny:

"The Hummer is an 'evil assault car', and should be banned, and all the ones sold should be confiscated. Only the military and Police should have Hummers...[Or Escalades, or Avalanches, or Unimogs, or '84 Broncos..:what: I own an '84 Bronco...you can't confiscate them, they have a legitamate driving purpose!...]":uhoh:



These are just examples, I'm yours will be better!:ohttp://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1023530

Josey
May 26, 2004, 01:25 AM
Why DOES anyone need dual Carter AVS carbs? Moroso dress up valve covers or deep sump oil pans? Why should there be S rated tires, the speed limit is 65. Why are there racers? What are racers "compensating" for? Hurst, Borg-Warner, Chrysler A727 or Powerglide transmissions? Why aren't you more "green"? The environment is not a renewable resource. Outlaw Hummers!! Crush all cars made before 1990. Those muscle cars belong in a museum. Electric scooters are the future. Recycle, reduce, reuse or the government will make you! How many car nuts would FREAK if the government required background checks, waiting periods, licensed dealers to transfer titles and outlawed out of state sales unless a middleman was used. What if a state required a vehicle to have 20 MPH bumpers? What if a guy in Chicago could not LEGALLY own a 454 Chevy unless he owned it before 1980? What if 440 Magnums had to be registered with the state police? The Nader and environuts ARE out to get your cars! It is for the children, environment, highway safety, lower insurance rates and "good for society". Don't get me started on evil black duallies.:neener:

sharpie613
May 26, 2004, 01:32 AM
Why do you need a car that drives so fast, when you only need to drive at most 70 miles an hour? Only police and maybe the military need to drive so fast. If your car does go that fast, you need to go and have it fixed so you don't kill a bunch of people with your crazy driving. Only cops are trined enough to be able to handle speeds of 70+.


Those must be special police only tires...why do you need those?

Night Guy
May 26, 2004, 01:51 AM
Oh I'm sure I can argue away the AWB without much problem. My bigger concern is that these people feel that it's okay to require mandatory training like a car does. Or that reinstituting a waiting period is okay. It's disheartening.

Be sure to read through page three if you haven't.

Josey
May 26, 2004, 03:07 AM
I understand where they are coming from. The issue seems simple. It is NOT! The government and insurance companies could have required padded dashes, better bumpers, safety laminate glass and better door latches. They didn't. Why? The public didn't care. Nader writes a single article. Hearings are held, ages for driving are raised, car prices go up and the average car buyer is pleased with increased safety. They have a slight "pinch" in their left buttock though. 1973. The "pinch" is a PITA! Why do people line up according to odds and evens? The public demands better mileage, less expenses and lower prices for econoboxes. Result? Ford Pintos that blow up on contact. The public begins buying Japanese imports. They are pleased with their temporary security. 2004. Autos are plasticized, computerized, economized and politicized. There are some who would gladly give up legislated safety and legalized extortion (insurance) for common sense operation of a basic auto. There are some who want the government to do more to reduce emissions, increase mileage and gaurantee safety. There are those who just want to be left alone. There are collectors who want nothing to do with new laws that affect old cars. There are those who want the latest in everything and demand room, speed, power, towing ability and go anywhere in any weather ability. There are those who are not into the car culture and think fossil fuels are what old people eat at buffets. Do you notice any similarity between gun and auto control? I miss my 70 Cuda with slapstick. It was the S&W 29 of muscle cars.

Amish_Bill
May 26, 2004, 04:25 AM
I believe the best answer to the "training and licensing" like cars bit...

First training is NOT required. A basic level of competence is.

This competence test can be administered as many times as it takes to pass at as many different locations as you care to try, with as many different examiners as you can stomach.

Once you pass this competence test, you have a license to be out in public with a piece of dangerous machinery.

Every state recognizes every other states license to be out in public, in control of dangerous machinery.

If you do something dumb and get your license suspended or revoked, you can get it back later, and your car is not confiscated.

Now... if a gun licensing plan had those same criteria, I would take the time to look at it. I might still reject it for other reasons, but I'd at least take the time to see what it was made of. Otherwise... well.... :-(

gunsmith
May 26, 2004, 04:45 AM
No private sales,you may only buy a car from a licensed dealer.
You may not sell or give your car to family members who can not pass a background check.
Your soon to be ex wife puts a restraining order on you because you spend to much time waxing your car,your an instant felon,go to jail,lose your car "privileges" for life, do ten yrs.
5 miles over speed limit, instant felon,go to jail,lose your car "privileges" for life, do ten yrs.
Fail to register your car on time instant felon,go to jail,lose your car "privileges" for life, do ten yrs.
You get pulled over,your uncle who has criminal convictions is in the car with you instant felon,go to jail,lose your car "privileges" for life, do ten yrs.
(unless your uncle is Ted Kennedy)
Moving violation? instant felon,go to jail,lose your car "privileges" for life, do ten yrs.
instant felon,go to jail,lose your car "privileges" for life, do ten yrs.
instant felon,go to jail,lose your car "privileges" for life, do ten yrs.
instant felon,go to jail,lose your car "privileges" for life, do ten yrs.
instant felon,go to jail,lose your car "privileges" for life, do ten yrs.
instant felon,go to jail,lose your car "privileges" for life, do ten yrs.
instant felon,go to jail,lose your car "privileges" for life, do ten yrs.
instant felon,go to jail,lose your car "privileges" for life, do ten yrs.

Hal
May 26, 2004, 06:53 AM
(long so please bear with me)
I've tried to make my debate as clearly as possible, but even my shooting buddy (SI304) would be okay with more restrictive gun regulations
I just did something I swore I never would do. I just bought a new Honda Odyssey that listed for $29K. I swore I'd never break $20K for something w/4 wheels. I won't go into the reasons why because they don't have any bearing. I did get to thinking about it though in another way. Here I am, 52 years old w/no bills to speak of, kids grown and gone, house paid off and my wife and I both working. I found myself w/the better part of the price sitting in the bank drawing less than 1% interest. I have the means financially to purchase it without putting a major hurt on my wallet. The van itself is a model that's geared towards a younger buyer, with kids. Read that as someone who doesn't have the means of coming up with a $500+ a month vehicle payment(or better yet, two $500+ a month payments). Their only recourse is to lease not purchase.

My pet theory on Road Rage is that it stems from the increase of leased vehicles. People in general tend to treat a leased vehicle like they do a rental car. The underlying attitude is that "It ain't mine, so why should I care?" I've watched the leased vehicles over the last 20 years go from car dealers taking the cream of the crop, to being in the position of having to lease to any and everyone in order to keep the payments manageable. Realistically, Jane and John Doe and their 2 kids have 2 vehicles, and both are in the $5-$6 hundred a month payment range. That adds up to $1.5K to close to $2K a month when you figure in insurance and gas. That's beyond most young couples' budgets. The only out is for a growing number of people is to lease.

It becomes self-sustaining. The more leases, the more "ain't mine" attitude. The more "ain't mine", the more aggressive the driver becomes because they simply don't care what happens to the vehicle.. The more aggressive the driver, the greater the chance for "Road Rage".

If you're still following. Tie that in to the "Why" are vehicles priced beyond the means of most people to buy? Regulations. Regulations. And more regulations. EPA - Safety - OSHA - Bureau of Workman's Comp. - IRS (yes Virginia,,,@ one time there was a tax advantage to buying a vehicle and borrowing the money to buy it) etc. Not laws per say, at least not at first, but regulations set down by non-elected government bodies. Bodies which you and I and the rest of "We the People" had no voice in putting in the position of governing us. Each and every regulation put in place, from the gathering of raw materials to build the vehicle, to the actual driving experience of the end buyer adds an ever increasing part of the final cost.

The saddest part is that it's so tough to follow the whole chain since there isn't a direct cause vs effect correlation. It's impossible to simply say the reason for road rage in Alabama is because the EPA and/or OSHA has so much a hand in how iron ore is mined in Wisconsin. #1, people can't sit still long enough to follow the whole process. and #2, people generally don't care because it (like monthly tax withholdings) is largely "invisible".

Firearms and the auto industry share a very common problem. An ever increasing number of bodies that want to "regulate" the manufacture, distribution and use of their products.

Greg L
May 26, 2004, 07:49 AM
Waiting periods vs drivers license.

Point out that every time your drivers license is up for renewal you don't have to go in and take the test again. However every time you want to buy a gun (assuming that you live somewhere that requires a waiting period) you have to go through this "cooling off period". Now the supposed purpose of the waiting period is so that you don't get mad, buy a gun, & go shoot someone. If that is the case what's to prevent you from using a gun that you already own? If there has to be waiting periods (a concept that I don't like anyway) it should be something like your drivers license, you get delayed the first time & then get a card saying that you've already been delayed & are allowed to pick it up the same day (with the usual NICS check that the rest of us go through).

Zach S
May 26, 2004, 08:49 AM
My bigger concern is that these people feel that it's okay to require mandatory training like a car does.

If Guns were Treated Like Cars
(C) 2000 Ron Miller


1. You could get a simple license from the State for a nominal fee and only
have to take a test that any idiot could pass. You'd only have to renew it
every 10 years for 40 years and maybe retake the test if you move out of state.

2. You could kill and injure people with your gun while drunk and still have
your lawyer get your gun back because you need it for work.

3. You'd have half the tax burden of the county and State dedicated to
improving the shooting ranges and facilities. The public agrees this is never
good enough to suit them and with all the gunowners from California moving in,
the range capacity will never catch up. Lines at the range are always shown on
TV with the newsies deploring the crowding.

4. You could carry in any State at any time because carry and possession of
your gun is honored nationwide and is considered a basic American civil right.

5. You would see commercials on TV pushing the newest, latest guns which you
could lease for just $25 per month subject to the fine print.

6. You could finance a fancier gun than you can really afford by taking a 5
year loan with approved credit.

7. You would have a gun safe built into every house. In the upscale houses you
would have 3 gun safes. Inexpensive houses and mobile homes would just have a
gunrack by the door.

8. You'd have gun storage lockers at the shopping mall in which to store your
rifle while shopping. This in order to free your arms for packages. The
convenience of the shopper is paramount.

9. You could buy ammunition at the 7-11. Full-service station means they'll
reload your magazines for you.

10 The news would stop reporting gun accidents unless more than 10 children
were killed at one time. Onesy-twosey would only be notable in small towns or
if Princess Di's bodyguard shot her while aiming at paparazzi.

11 If the price of ammunition rose 20% the Federal Government would release war
reserves of ammo to bring the price back down to the consumer's comfort level.
Ammo would carry a 50% tax to finance public shooting ranges. The Teapot Dome
scandal would have been about a lead mine.

12 We'd teach gunsmithing in vocational-education programs.

13 Every 16 year old would be looking forward to the day when he could take the
family revolver to school. The rich kids would get a high capacity semi-auto
pistol on their 16th birthday and endanger everyone when they learn to use it
in public.

14 High schools would have large gun lockers to store student's arms while they
attend classes. Administrators would try to charge for the service to
discourage teen-age gun carrying to school.

15 Schools would have shooter's education classes to make sure the kids could
pass the test. They would show gory films of gunshot wounds. The squeamish
would throw up.

16 Old people who can hardly see would still be permitted to shoot in public
because to disarm them would be to damage their self-esteem. Families would
wring their hands over holes in the walls and ceiling. Occasionally an oldster
would fire into a schoolyard when they mistake the trigger for the safety.
Legislators would refrain from criticizing because of the AARP's influence.

17 Congress would be debating alternative weapons systems for people who can't
afford their own guns.

18 There would be such a thing as "public weapons" for the masses.

19 Congress would be subsidizing weapons for people too limited in means to
afford their own.

20 Congress would be willing to float a loan to Colt's in order to ensure the
survival of an American company against unfair foreign competition. (Think
"Chrysler")

21 We, except for Ralph Nader, would dismiss 40,000 deaths and 500,000 injuries
per year as "the price of freedom."

22 You would have MADS. Mothers Against Drunk Shooters (instead of HCI). MADS
would conduct a campaign of public education instead of trying to use the force
of government to prohibit irresponsible drinking and shooting.

23 You could rent a gun at any airport if you are over 25 and have a credit
card.

24 You would have the fringe-greenies advocating bows and arrows because they
think gunsmoke is damaging the environment. Al Gore would write a book about
the damaging effects of gunsmoke. Al Gore would also claim to have been a
handloader before his sister died in a powder fire.

25 You'd have huge outcry in the Press and Congress over our dependence on
cheap, imported, foreign ammunition.

26 Ted Kennedy would have shot Mary Jo Kopekne instead. Ted would be a few
thousand dollars richer (bullet:$0.25 vs car:$3000) Ted would stop carrying his
own gun and instead, hire bodyguards to carry fully-automatic weapons under
their coats for him.

27 You'd have businesses like "Jiffy Gun-Clean" to make life convenient. But
you'd always worry that they might not have gotten the magazine fully seated
afterwards.

28 You'd have "Classic Gun Events" with parades on public roads as everyone
with such a classic carries it for all the public to see.

29 You'd have huge eyesores where piles of guns are left to rust in the open at
"Gun Junk Yards". They would charge you outrageous prices to go out back and
pick off a hammer or sear which is probably also worn out like the one you want
to replace.

30 There would be a booming business and debate about substituting non-OEM
parts in the gun repair business.

31 You'd have TV news crews going under cover with hidden cameras to ferret out
"unscrupulous gun smiths." This story would be "old reliable" and works every
year.

32 The Japanese would be trying, and succeeding, at taking over the market for
efficient, reliable high-quality guns. The Koreans would be trying to sneak in
at the low end of the market. The Germans would be selling premium brands based
on better workmanship, longer life, and brand cachet. But their guns would
require you to take it to a gunsmith every 3 months for a complete tear-down
and dimensional inspection at outrageous labor rates. The Italians would paint
their guns flaming red and they would have a reputation for being finicky. The
State Department would be applying pressure to get Japan to allow more US-built
guns into their country. The Japanese would resist the US by saying that
Japanese shooters have extra-special safety requirements that only Japanese
manufacturers can meet.

33 You'd have an entire section of the Saturday Coloradoan devoted to ads for
new and used guns.

34 You'd have a pair of fun-loving gunsmiths on Public Radio doing a show on
gun problems. They'd be named "Tap & Rack"

35 There would have been a terrible TV show back in the black & white days
named "My Mother - The Gun". It starred Jerry Van Dyke and ran just one season.

36 Dean Jones would have made a series of stupid movies starring Herbie the
Love-Gun. Herbie was an adorable anthropomorphized cheap German Saturday Night
Special. Dean Jones would never show his face in public again after these
movies.

37 Competition would be carried on TV all day on Saturdays. The Daytona 500
would be round-count instead of miles. There would be speed contests, endurance
contests, and off-range marksmanship events. NASGUN would create big heroes in
the South and extravagant marketing opportunities.

38 High-schools would paint up a gun in the colors of the opposition and charge
$.25 for you to swing a sledge hammer at that gun during pep rallys.

39 John Elway would own half the gunstores in the Denver Metro area.

40 Wellington Webb's wife would be carrying the finest English Double shotgun
money can buy while Wellington has body guards to carry his semi-auto pistols

41 Back in the 1970's during the ammo crisis, Congress would have set a maximum
cyclic rate for autos and semi autos in order to conserve ammo.

42 After Iraq was pushed out of Kuwait, the national cyclic rate was raised to
something all semi-autos can be comfortable with.

43 The Coloradoan would be publishing the locations of range repair work every
week to be sure no one would be inconvenienced.

44 The Beach Boys would have released some songs about guns: "Spring little
Cobray gettin' ready to strike..... Spring little Cobray with all your
might....." "She's real fine my Wonder Nine, she's real fine my Won-der Nine."
"Fun, fun, fun 'til Daddy takes her Kel-Tec away......"

45 Letters to editors would be written decrying that all those Soccer Moms are
lugging .50 cal machine guns around town, wasting ammo and getting in
everybody's way.

46 Letters to editors would be written responding that putting one's beginning
driver son or daughter behind a .50 cal would mean that the writer's offspring
would survive any conflict with lesser armed individuals.

47 Al Gore would claim he invented the .50cal cartridge and say he was sorry.

48 Cities would be experimenting with electric guns but would be surprised to
find that people would step in front of them at the range because they were too
quiet so no one knew the electric gun was there.

49 President Clinton would demand that electric gun manufacturers put a cowbell
on each one to prevent senseless accidents.

50 The National Rifle Association would be reduced to selling travel insurance
for your guns because the rest of society will have seen to it that there would
be no chance that firearms would ever be banned.




Copyright 2000 by Ron Miller. (unimogbert@ CONNECT PARTS TO E-MAIL pobox.com)

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