7-11 and other stop-n-robs?


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twoblink
May 26, 2004, 08:16 PM
I'm fairly curious, as here in Taiwan, LA is known as the "land of liquor store holdups" as that's what is shown here about LA often on TV. (I see how tough gunlaws have done so much ... NOT! :rolleyes: )

But I'm curious, what's the logic behind some of the 7-11's and other "stop-n-rob" as Kaylee calls it, for not encouraging the employees there to open carry? I'm sure most robbers do a sweep first, and so if they see a clerk open carrying, they have got to think twice, or at least pick an easier target, no?

Question I was asked, so I thought I'd ask..

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BlkHawk73
May 26, 2004, 08:36 PM
In my opinion, there are just some people that I don't think should have firearms. They just lack the grey matter in the skull to fully appreciate the responsibilty of it all. That said, I feel that a great number of these "stop-n-rob" clerks I see on TV fall into this category.

Greg L
May 26, 2004, 08:45 PM
It's cheaper for the owners to replace a dead employee than pay the liability insurance to have them all armed (or allow some of them armed). Most of the stories that you hear of a clerk at such a store shooting/killing a robber involves the owner or an immediate family member.

angrywalkindude
May 26, 2004, 09:41 PM
Located at the intersection of Houston Ave. and Edwards St. in downtown Houston is a small conveince store named Stanton's. Stanton's is owned and operated by a chinese family, mom+pop, two sons and a daughter. Every time I would go there I would see pistols hanging out of the back of their of jeans. One evening I asked one of the boys if the store had ever been robbed, he reaches behind his back grabs the pistol lays it on the counter and says "ain’t nobody crazy enough to rob us".

cookhj
May 26, 2004, 09:56 PM
there's a store here in richmond, va that's been robbed twice, and the owner has two confirmed kills under his belt. that store hasn't been robbed in a long time.

Treylis
May 26, 2004, 10:51 PM
I have a friend who works at a 7-11... man, I'd be packing if I worked there. She's never been robbed, but... gah.

I think insurance reasons also play a part in it.

Kodiak AK
May 26, 2004, 11:14 PM
Greg L has it nailed . Heck my cousin got fired from 7-11 because he stoped a hold up .

Greg L
May 26, 2004, 11:54 PM
Greg L has it nailed
Bingo, Greg. ( http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83695 )
Two in one day, I must be doing something right http://smile.smilies.nl/488.gif

:neener:

:D

Double Maduro
May 27, 2004, 01:46 AM
One reason for no open carry.

Bad guy sits outside and shoots you through the window, then comes in takes the money and your gun.

DM

V-fib
May 27, 2004, 03:07 AM
Before I moved to the country, I used to live in Detroit near Rouge Park. There was a liquor store near the park that was a frequent target of robberies until one of the owners cut a “balcony” into the back wall and sat up there with a loaded shotgun. Then there was a mom and pop Chinese restaurant that had a son as the waiter. Quiet little place. A few years after we moved we came back for a visit and went to the restaurant. The same waiter was there only this time he was waiting tables with a revolver on his hip! :cool:

Tom Bri
May 27, 2004, 03:23 AM
I did the late night thing for a while. Carried a little NAA .22 at first, till I saved the cash to get a S&W M19, which I kept next to the register, out of sight. I figured the owner and the cops knew I had them, but nobody ever said anything, me neither. Don't ask don't tell.

The vendors used to come in after midnight to restock the store, and a lot of them carried one thing or another. We used to compare. Some of the other late night guys got robbed, but not me. Maybe luck, or maybe it got around that I had .357 with me.

Treylis
May 27, 2004, 07:08 AM
One reason for no open carry.

Bad guy sits outside and shoots you through the window, then comes in takes the money and your gun.

And so what? The alternative is a hindered, slow draw from concealment against a guy who's already drawn down and has his gun pointing at you? No thanks. I'm fast but I'm not going to play those odds.

Besides, if they're that ready and willing to commit murder, why wouldn't they just assume that the employee might possibly be packing and shoot them anyways? No witness that way, either.

Double Maduro
May 27, 2004, 11:58 AM
Treylis,

The difference is that with the weapon hidden and the bg inside, you have a chance to defend yourself. You also have the opportunity to use your most potent weapon- your brain.

With the gun exposed and the bg shooting from outside, you are just dead.



DM

Quartus
May 27, 2004, 12:11 PM
IOW, SOME small chance vs. none at all.


Lousy choice, but easy choice.






Oh, Greg, don't let it go to your head or we'll have to start monitoring your posts and calling the ones you MISS! :neener:



:D

Quartus
May 27, 2004, 12:13 PM
In my opinion, there are just some people that I don't think should have firearms. They just lack the grey matter in the skull to fully appreciate the responsibilty of it all. That said, I feel that a great number of these "stop-n-rob" clerks I see on TV fall into this category



Two IDPA shooters used to work for a 7-11 in L.A. They were fired.


The two robbers were dead.


A pair of double taps from a .45 tends to do that. Each robber got one from each employee.

I heard the tape from the security camera - 8 shots in a hurry, and no misses. Each one double tapped the closest guy, then moved to the next guy.

Nice shooting, men!

And who needs a 7-11 job anyway?

twoblink
May 27, 2004, 12:32 PM
You also have the opportunity to use your most potent weapon- your brain.
Unfortunately, some of the 7-11 employees are the brightest bulbs. BUT..

What if 7-11 had a "everybody packs" policy? I'll bet you that would reduce the robbery count in a hurry.

Chip Dixon
May 27, 2004, 06:56 PM
That'd be great... qualification for 7-11.

I can hear the kids now, "I was going to work there but I couldn't get 4 in the 10 ring in 2 seconds as the owner requires for night shift."

Honestly, anyone who values their job at a convenience store enough to obey their no carry rules needs to reevaluate their priorities.

I worked night shift at a local exxon for a few weeks when my car needed body work and I had no transportation to my other jobs. Damned if I'd leave my 1911 or S&W at home.

I always say if someone tells you to do something stupid, why listen to them? You wouldn't jump off a highway overpass if someone asked you to, so why do something else that can kill you like working unarmed at a convenience store? It's not like they're running you through a metal detector whenever you come to work.

Vern Humphrey
May 27, 2004, 07:22 PM
Quote:
---------------------------------------------
One reason for no open carry.

Bad guy sits outside and shoots you through the window, then comes in takes the money and your gun.
----------------------------------------------

So how come the bad guys don't shoot all the cops? They carry openly!

Double Maduro
May 27, 2004, 07:41 PM
Vern,

Couple of reasons come to mind.

1. Cops shoot back.

2. A lot of places only have the death penalty for certain crimes, like shooting cops.

3. The cops don't usually sit in one spot all night with the lights on, making them a harder target.

4. Other cops are more likely to hurt you than other stop and rob employees are.

5. Cops don't usually have much money on them. Making the return too small.

I am sure there are more, many more but these are the ones that jumped into my head.

DM

Vern Humphrey
May 27, 2004, 07:53 PM
Quote:
--------------------------------------------
1. Cops shoot back.
____________________________

So do I.

As for the rest, if the intent is to get a gun, then the guy carrying openly is clearly a better target. And cops DO sit still, or follow routines. I've seen plenty of cops in Condition White!

As for the death penalty deterring someone from killing a cop -- I think most authorities agree the death penalty, especially as carried out in the US, with a generation between sentence and execution, isn't any more deterrent than any other stiff sentence. After all, if bad guys were in the habit of thinking 20 or more years into the future, they wouldn't be bad guys -- they'd be doctors, lawyers, or business owners!

I think the proposition, "If they know you have a gun, they'll shoot you first" is simply not tenable -- crooks tend to avoid armed victims, not seek them out.

Double Maduro
May 27, 2004, 08:05 PM
Vern,

This thread is about carrying openly as a clerk in a 7-11. The reason people rob 7-11's is because they think doing so is an easy source of instant cash. If they want to rob you and know you have a gun they will simply shoot you from outside and then rob you.

Since robbing cops is not generaly considered to be a ready source of cash, there is no reason to shoot them.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------
1. Cops shoot back.
____________________________

So do I.
------------------------------------------------

Great, I shoot back too. But, it is very hard to shoot back when you are laying on the floor dead.

The first time I want a bad guy to know that I have a gun is when it goes "bang". When I know something he doesn't I have the advantage. When he knows something that I don't (ie. he is going to rob and or kill me) he has the advantage.

The advantage you gain through the fear factor you give up in tactical advantage.

Even if they don't shoot you from outside they will take care of the guy with the gun first. I want to keep them guessing for as long as possible.

By the way, does anyone know what percentage of convenience store robberies involve the clerk being shot or injured?

DM

4 eyed six shooter
May 27, 2004, 08:20 PM
In the city I worked for as a PD officer, we had a 7/11 where the owner killed two armed robbers, at two different times. He had a one way mirror that looked out at the cash register. There was a door that opened in line with the front of the counter. He took the first guy out with a .357 and the second guy with a well placed 12 guage slug to the head. The shooting with the 12 guage splattered blood and brains all over the young girl behind the counter. Poor thing, it was her first day working there. She ran out of the store, never to return. Both shootings were ruled justifiable. 7/11 did not like the publicity, and revoked his franchise.
One thing to always do before going into a stop and rob. Before going in, take a good look thru the window at who is in the store and what is going on. If something does not look right, don't walk thru the door. It's no fun walking into a store in the middle of a robbery. Be in condition yellow anytime you enter a business. It just might keep you alive.
Good shooting, John K

Vern Humphrey
May 27, 2004, 08:22 PM
Quote:
-----------------------------------------------
If they want to rob you and know you have a gun they will simply shoot you from outside and then rob you.
----------------------------------------------

As the late Finn Aagard was wont to say, "How do you KNOW this to be true?"

All the evidence points in the opposite direction -- stores with multiple employees, armed employees, and so on are NOT robbed with the same frequency, and there is no evidence that I know of that shows an employee becomes a target when he arms himself.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------
Great, I shoot back too. But, it is very hard to shoot back when you are laying on the floor dead.
--------------------------------------------------

This could be an argument that says, "If you have a gun, it won't do you any good. They'll shoot you first."

Again, I know of no statistics that show an armed clerk is at greater risk than an unarmed one.

Double Maduro
May 27, 2004, 08:49 PM
Vern,

You win.

All I know is that if I am a bg and I know you are armed, and you have something I want badly enough, you will be dead before you know I am there.

People who rob convienence stores are not the most rational thinkers on the planet. You would be better off not expecting them to act in a reasonable manner or in the way you predict they will.

Unless you work in an industry that tracks incidents of conviencence store robberies the fact that you "know of no statistics that show an armed clerk is at greater risk than an unarmed one." doesn't mean much. That is why I asked the question about statistics. By the way, the qauestion isn't about armed or not, it is about "openly armed".

I respect your opinion and your conviction. I just disagree with your opinion.

DM

carp killer
May 27, 2004, 08:55 PM
I might be wrong but I heard that 7-11's policy was like a bank. Just give the sh*tbag the money and try and remember the description of the sh*tbag. Of course some of the Armenian/Russian/Asian gangsters just walk in and execute. It's faster and no witnesses. 7-11 doesn't mention that during the job interview.:uhoh:

Double Maduro
May 27, 2004, 08:59 PM
For those who may be interrested, there is an article in the Street Smarts II section of August 2004 edition of Combat Handguns that supports my opinion.

It is called "Bad Advertising" by Richard Gearon and starts on page 24.

DM

Vern Humphrey
May 27, 2004, 09:25 PM
Can you post it for us, or give us a link to it?

Double Maduro
May 27, 2004, 09:47 PM
I went to their home page, http://www.combathandguns.com/ but they don't have the articles posted. I am sorry that I don't feel like typing all of this.

I will try to get my scanner working and try it that way.

DM

Double Maduro
May 28, 2004, 01:38 AM
Here is the article, I typed it after all. Don't judge me by the typing job, it's late.

In the June 2004 issue of "Combat Handguns" in the "It Happened to me!" section a guy wrote that he worked in, I believe, a convienence store at night. He always had a lot of gun mags on th counter and carried a partialy concealed Glock, and would take it out and show it to people all the time. He felt this would deter crime in his store. This column appears to be written in response to that letter.

So, here it is.

DM



Bad Advertising

Concealed carry means concealed

By Rishard Gearon

I have been a student of armed self-defense for over 40 years. The personal experiences of readers and writers like Mas Ayoob in CH, are the absolutely best source of knowledge about this particular subject. We canl all learn the right things to do and even more importantly, the wrong things to avoid.

I believe that DA of Kansas ("It Happened to Me!" CH June o4) is a victim looking for a place to die. I read his account, approvingly, up to the part about the gun magazines on the counter, the quasi-concealed gun, and the absolutely astonishing display of the gun. Yeah, word does get around, and sometimes it gets around to the wrong people.

About 30 years ago, I read a tragic story about a farmer in DA's neck of the woods. Two heavily armed bad guys who had, I believe, just busted out of jail, were matriculating their way across country by hitting isolated homes and farms. They would rob, rape, and murder everyone they found in the homes. They left nobody alive. They would then "swap" vehicles, so they would have a "cold" ride to their next victims. These hard-core criminals had already killed a lot of people and had amassed an awesome arsenal of guns from their victims.

The armed citizen who very likely could have saved his own life, the lives of the other members of his family, and stopped these two before they killed anybody else, was riding around, in a field near the farm house on his tractor. The thugs drove up to the house, stopped, and observed that the farmer was packing a big revolver, in plain view, on his hip. One of the bad guys merely pulled out a rifle and killed the farmer with one shot from about 100 yards. They then went about robbing, raping, and killing the man's wife.

These low-lifes almost certainly wouldn't have killed the man on the tractor immediately if his weapon were concealed. Scum like that like to make a man watch as they rape his wife, before they kill him. If his weapon was concealed, he could have drawn it at the first opportune moment and started blasting the bad guys. At least it would have been a fight and not an execution.

If DA doesn't stop "advertising" the fact that he's armed, some night someone, who did "get the message", might just walk in the store and shoot him before he knows what's happening. The robber knows that he'll get not only what is in the register, but a very nice Glock with some great rounds in it.

DA, please lose the magazines on the counter, the semi-concealed nature of your pistol, and the display of said firearm. There aren't an infinite number of good-guys around and I certainly wouldn't want to see one, such as yourself, become a "statistic".

Viking6
May 28, 2004, 07:36 AM
Interesting debate, during college I worked at a Mobil station/convenience store on the midnight shift several nights a week. I was never robbed but I kept a Llama .380 behind the counter under a paper towel. Some nights were kinda scary. Side note: I don't see why we have to constantly put down 7-11 workers, these folks are working and providing us with a service. I get PO'd at the fast food clerks sometimes when they screw up my order but they usually are courteous and just make a few mistakes; plus they again provide me with a service and are working. Sorry, climbing off soap box. Remember Memorial Day and what it means.

twoblink
May 28, 2004, 12:22 PM
Double Maduro,

Here's the deal. There are two camps of thinking as far as open carry vs ccw is concerned.

One is like you, "the first time I want them to know I have a gun is when I pull it out and it goes bang and they are dead."

I can live with that..

But I also like the open carry camp..

Let's say you have 7-11.. and OK...

Let's say 7-11's policy is open carry for all employees. If I'm a perp, and I see all 7-11 guys armed, I'll probably take my chances with robbing an OK. While an OK guy MIGHT have a gun, the 7-11 guys ALL have a gun.

Stats say open exposure reduces crime. That's why beat cops just driving around, while technically doing nothing, reduces crime...

Double Maduro
May 28, 2004, 02:29 PM
twoblink,

I already said I respect the open carry opinion. I just disagree with it.

Late at night there is usually only one employee. Not a big deterrent, if you know he is armed. Take care of him/her and the coast is clear.

If you don't know if they are armed you may not come in with guns blazing or shoot them from the parking lot across the street. It also gives the employee more options.

Like I said, I respect the open carry opinion.

DM

twoblink
May 28, 2004, 09:50 PM
DM, :cool:

I understand the arguements from both sides. I respect both sides as well.

Sometimes, I think there are environments where ccw's work better (don't scare the Sheeple and PLemmings right?) and other times, a nice show of force is better.

What I do like is the fact we have different views on the display of guns, not the ownership of them...

Double Maduro
May 31, 2004, 07:09 PM
Twoblink,

Well said.

DM

CrudeGT
May 31, 2004, 07:24 PM
I think there are some good aspects to open carrying, especially at a workplace like that, as long as it does not break a law, or a company policy.

Most badguys that are going to rob a place do not want to kill anyone. They want to flash their gun (which probably is not even loaded), get the money and leave. This badguy will see that the minute he flashed his gun to the store clerk, someone is gong to die. And getting caught to armed robbery sounds a lot better than getting caught for manslaughter.

While there are rare instances where BG's will shot first, like the story Double Maduro. I do not think they are common enough to take into account. Granted they happen, but not as often as the first instance I stated. And Who's to say the two guys going house to house wouldn't have the guy from that distance if he didn't have a gun exposed. maybe the conversation was more like "Hey, I bet you can't shoot that guy from here, without a scope" "ohh yeah, watch me". See what I mean?

However, I will always agree that if one is granted the power to conceal a firearm, than conceal means concealed.

Edmond
May 31, 2004, 07:41 PM
Guys,

We can't forget that these rules are made by people who are sitting in a corporate office, 3 piece suite and have security downstairs. Can we really expect those people to relate to a working class guy like me? I don't work in a convenience store, but I'm working class and I don't think any beancounter or CEO or CFO can relate to anything in my life.

Skunkabilly
May 31, 2004, 08:09 PM
Stanton's is owned and operated by a chinese family, mom+pop, two sons and a daughter. Every time I would go there I would see pistols hanging out of the back of their of jeans.

How old is the daughter?

CrudeGT
May 31, 2004, 08:59 PM
How old is the daughter?

and the Skunk sets his sights on his next target. hey, want some Tomato Soup to get rid of the smell before approaching her?:D

JohnKSa
May 31, 2004, 11:32 PM
I heard the tape from the security camera - 8 shots in a hurry, and no misses. Each one double tapped the closest guy, then moved to the next guy. Sweet!
I'll bet they never realized what was happening...

Back to the original question--it's the bottom line as usual.

A dead employee costs a store nothing.
Losing the contents of the register once in awhile costs a store little.

BUT, if an employee is carrying and there is an ND and someone gets injured, it can cost millions. I know a fellow who cost his company somewhere between 3 and 5 million (can't recall the exact amount). He was carrying with his management's tacit approval and had an ND. A non-employee was killed. He was not charged as the death was ruled an accident and he was not shown to be negligent. However, the relatives of the dead person sued the company. I can't recall if the payout was a settlement or a judgement.

Ditto if someone is killed by an employee intentionally when it is not warranted. (If the company allows carry.)

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