[SlimeDog]

Anybody see this yet? Yikes! Words fail me...

http://www.al.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-7/1085639408159250.xml

The Associated Press
5/27/2004, 12:34 a.m. CT

BAY MINETTE, Ala. (AP) -- A grand jury cleared a state trooper in the killing of a suspected car thief, saying the officer's gun encouraged a loose trigger finger.

The Baldwin County grand jury placed the blame for the shooting on the service pistol used by state troopers, which is easier to fire than some other weapons used by law enforcement officers.

Trooper Angel Rodriguez was cleared by the grand jury of criminal wrongdoing Wednesday.

Rodriguez shot Darrell Taylor, 22, of Prichard, in the neck with a .40-caliber Glock semiautomatic pistol on April 7, and Taylor died three days later.

The grand jury issued a report encouraging the state to review whether that type of pistol should be used in state service.

"It appears that the trooper reacted based upon his training with the weapon issued to him by the state," the report said.

Rodriguez, a seven-year veteran of the Department of Public Safety, has been serving administrative duty since the shooting. He couldn't be reached for comment Wednesday.

When Rodriguez stopped Taylor's car for a broken tail light, he put Taylor in the passenger's seat of the patrol car after Taylor couldn't produce a valid driver's license. Then Rodriguez found out the car was reported stolen.

Taylor's cousin, Antonio Taylor, told the Mobile Register in April he had loaned him the car and that it was not stolen.

Rodriguez ordered Taylor out of the car and pulled the pistol out of its holster, which is standard procedure, the grand jury said.

That's when the pistol went off, said Baldwin County District Attorney David Whetstone.

The Glock pistols used by state troopers have a 5-pound "trigger pull," which the grand jury said has a history of accidental discharge. The Department of Public Safety recently switched to an 8-pound trigger pull that is harder to fire.

Baldwin County James B. "Jimmy" Johnson told the grand jury he would never use a weapon with a trigger pull that light.

"You're under a lot of stress. ... Your adrenaline is running," Johnson said in an interview. "You tighten up your hands. It's not that hard for a weapon to be discharged."

[Ex-MA Hole]

A. There goes personal accountablity.
B. Why, why, why was his finger on the trigger?

[Hawkmoon]

My 1911 has a 4-pound trigger.

If I have to shoot someone, I expect the prosecutor to claim I have a "hair trigger" to make it easier to kill people. Never thought I'd hear of a prosecutor using that as a defense.

[El Tejon]

I hereby order the removal of all triggers from all police firearms. That way the pistols cannot be fired! Next problem.

Hang the hardware, not the software.:D

I like the part where "the pistol went off.":rolleyes: Gee, I wonder why it did that. Darn gun.

[Henry Bowman]

Never mind Rule#3. Just make it so it take two hands to pull the trigger. Better yet, a "cooling off period." Oh, but we'll exempt LEO from these new rules. :rolleyes:

[TheEgg]

This defense would not have been accepted (I wager) for a regular old serf like me. Why was it accepted for the Police Officer?



Because the established power structure needs the good-will of the police force to remain in power and keep the serfs in line. This kind of thing indebts the police structure to the political structure and keeps them on the job.

Or, it could be that the grand jury in this case is just plain stupid.:D

That's when the pistol went off -- all by itself, eh Bubba?

Common mantra of criminals and stupid dofuses the world over -- which was this cop? I don't know.

[GEM]

Obviously, police should wear a big lockable rubber finger on their trigger finger that can't fit into the grip unless removed by a supervisor during a crisis.

If your finger is on the trigger, 3 lbs doesn't mean squat if you squeeze it.

Baldwin County sure produces the finest firearms experts in the world.

[Deavis]

Don't learn trigger control, keep getting paid while under investigation, and in the end you get to keep your job after killing someone.

I'm sure he didn't mean to shoot him, but he put his finger on the trigger and should be held accountable. An ordinary citizen would already be in jail and he should be thrown in there too. at a minimum, he should be removed from public service.

[Feanaro]

Yep, the gun MADE him pull the trigger. He didn't have any choice... :rolleyes:

[gunsmith]

twice as a matter of fact,what little I remember from boot camp in the seventies kicked in. I didn't put my finger on the trigger,and it didn't "go off".
Grand Jury was a bunch of morons.

[Sgt Stevo]

I have been carrying an m-16 or m-4 all my adult life. And NEVER had an ad. this guy is not the norm for cops. He F.....up. And found an out. Liberals eat this up. Finger should not been in the gard.

[Old Fuff]

You folks just don't understand safety ...

If the chamber hadn't been loaded this incident couldn't have happened.

If the magazine was empty ... well that would have been even better.

And if the gun had been locked in a holster without a release ... well that would have been perfect ....

Ask Sarah ...

It's for the children.

[gyp_c2]

...we're all doomed if we ever shoot anyone...http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/bandit.gif

[ssr]

How about this one:

http://web.dailytimes.com/story.lasso?wcd=10830


"The exam calls for the officer to pull the weapon out of a holster and fire while he or she is being timed by the range officer. Officers are trained for handling firearms in an emergency situation and the exam ensures they’ve acquired the skill and can perform under pressure.

O’Keefe’s holster has a safety feature — a hold and release mechanism — that requires him to hold down the safety button in order to remove the gun from the holster.

Holding the safety release button while pulling the weapon out of its holster forces the officer’s finger to be on the trigger while he is removing the gun.

Investigators determined that in the urgency of the timed exam, O’Keefe pulled the weapon out of the holster without realizing his finger was on the trigger and the gun discharged."



What kind of holster is this?! Nice "safety feature".

[Atticus]

A Glock's best feature, is it's worst feature....it's simple in design and typically fires when the trigger is pulled. Damned things.

[Dain Bramage]

Holding the safety release button while pulling the weapon out of its holster forces the officer’s finger to be on the trigger while he is removing the gun

I agree with ssr. The bull is starting to pile up about this in the media.

A. This was not a "timed exam", but the real world where people bleed.

B. There is not a holster release in the world that requires your finger on the trigger, outside of some fevered anti's crack dream.

This person should not be a LEO. His peers should shun him like a pariah, but that won't happen.

It's not only the ND and the dead victim, but the attitude and refusal of responsibilty.

[FishOrMan]

Not sure how to take this one. Very, very scary.

Do all states train their officers when pulling a gun, (even while still assessing a situation), to have their finger on the trigger?

If he was shot, without justification as it says, and had survived the first shot, would he have been allowed to shoot back?

Carried by 6 is not the honorable answer

[nico]

it really makes me mad that if a gun owner screws up like this, they're (rightfully) punished, but if a cop screws up, it was either an "honest mistake" or an equipment malfunction. Not to mention that the gun grabbers don't have a problem with cops not having any restrictions on them because they're "properly trained" to use guns. :fire:
btw, does it say anywhere why the car was reported stolen if the guy was just borrowing it from his cousin.

[ssr]

Hope my post above of a different incident did not confuse things. I posted another incident I read about today and quoted some of the article in my post.

[Baba Louie]

Can you say, "Re-directing Civil Legal Action away from the City/County/State?"
Sure. Knew you could.
The grand jury issued a report encouraging the state to review whether that type of pistol should be used in state service. "Time for some new Sigs Boyz. What flavor do you want them? The too big .45, the too small no. 9, or the just right .40? And dag-nab-it Trooper Angel, repeat after me, "These new handguns do NOT encourage a loose trigger finger. Ya'll got that?"
...saying the officer's gun encouraged a loose trigger finger. big sigh

[Pilgrim]

The Associated Press
5/27/2004, 12:34 a.m. CT

Montgomery, Ala. (AP)

The governor announced today that the next cadet class of Alabama State Police will include three unusual cadets. Three Glock .40 caliber pistols will be in the cadet class without any cadets assigned to them. The governor explained that in view of the Baldwin County grand jury finding that the Glock pistol was responsible for the killing of Darrell Taylor there was no need to incur the continuing expense of hiring and paying state troopers.

"It makes perfect sense," said the governor. "Why pay state troopers when the pistol is perfectly capable of killing criminals?"

In response to questions, the governor explained that the three cadet pistols were an experiment. It wasn't entirely clear if the pistols could be taught to write traffic citations. "After all, what is the point of saving money by not hiring state troopers if the pistols can't generate revenues by issuing traffic citations?"

However, commander of the Alabama State Police said all would not be a total loss if the pistols turned out to be incapable of writing traffic citations. "The pistols can always be assigned to the State Police SWAT team where killing would be their only duty."

[Standing Wolf]

Can you say, "Re-directing Civil Legal Action away from the City/County/State?"

Bingo!

[alan]

Seems as if the supply of ARRANT NONSENSE is well and truly without end.

Funny thing about firearms, and their triggers. When the latter is pulled, the former tend to fire, as they are supposed to. Funny thing #2. No matter how heavy or light the trigger pull on any particular firearm might be, absent a finger on the trigger, it is not going to fire, even in the hands of "DA MAN", a person, either male or female, who all to often doesn't really know how to PROPERLY HANDLE the weapon they are provided with.

Of course, while Glocks aren't perfect, nothing man made is, and I do not personally care for the things, the ultimate WEAK LINK is always the user. In this situation, it appears trhat nothing "new" has been added.

[Garrum]

Hold on here.

Rodriguez ordered Taylor out of the car and pulled the pistol out of its holster, which is standard procedure, the grand jury said.

Since when is it permissable to offer the threat of deadly force even before the alleged BG offers any resistance, much less aggression? You can't cuff someone with a gun in your hand, anyway. If this really is their policy, then they need to be beaten with an industrial strength ClueBat.

And beyond all of that, why did he have his finger on the Foxtrotting trigger? That is super ultra mega basic safety stuff, man. If he can't follow something that basic safety rule, I have no faith at all in him to follow other rules, such as no illegal searches or siezures, or don't beat on someone just cause no one sees you do it.

[The_Antibubba]

Well, since the "experts" at the Department and the DA's office have weighed in about the total fallability of the gun, and the non-culpability of the officer, the family will now be free to sue Glock for distributing such a dangerous product. :fire:

What we need is an enterprising THR member in Alabama to sue the Police department, demanding that such unsafe devices be removed from service IMMEDIATELY!!!

[Waitone]

Glock--5 lb. trigger pull at about 1"

1911--5 lb. trigger pull at ?????

Whaddday thimk they'd do with a 1911.

Another example of an inanimate object exercising personal responsibility.

[artherd]

If he was shot, without justification as it says, and had survived the first shot, would he have been allowed to shoot back?

By all means.

This cop should have been rightfully SHOT on the spot. It would have been legitimite self-defense.

Funny thing is, I've a Glock with the factory 3.5lb connector. (all installed by Glock, prior to my purchase.) It is NOT light enough to go bang by doing anything but intentionally pulling the trigger! 3.5lbs is still quite a lot of force, and Glock triggers have a LOT of travel/takeup.

There's literally no way this cop didn't pull the trigger, as the Glocks at 'half cock/cocked' don't have enough energy to detonate a primer. You HAVE to provide this energy in the form of trigger takeup.

Then again, I've seen NDs with a Beretta 92, with about a 16lb DA pull...

[FishOrMan]

Well, with that question answered... we have entered a whole new world...

Should the gun carrying citizen who might have witnesses this event also defended this man's life? (Let's not answer that question... it leads us down a very, very, VERY scary path!)

[Baba Louie]

There's literally no way this cop didn't pull the trigger, as the Glocks at 'half cock/cocked' don't have enough energy to detonate a primer. You HAVE to provide this energy in the form of trigger takeup. artherd artherd artherd, cain't cha read boy? The MAN done said that there furrin' gun "encouraged a loose trigger finger". I reckon down in old Bammy they just gotsta "Tighten Up" them there trigger fingers... no wait... that'd probably make it go full auto or sumpin.
I'm gonna go have a word with my Glocks and see what they're planning on doing about this "encouragement of loose trigger fingers" and such. Sounds like a conspiracy to me. Maybe even a... a movement.
Baldwin County James B. "Jimmy" Johnson told the grand jury he would never use a weapon with a trigger pull that light. I just wanna know who would name their kid Baldwin County James B. "Jimmy" Johnson and why does his name and quote appear in the story?

On a side note: While I expect agency admin to back up their troopers, I really really wonder how in the name of Mike did the GJ decide that this particular line of BS would cut the mustard unless they feared some backlash by fellow troopers or a passel of vicious lawyer types just waiting to go for the gold... or both.
Truly a tragic comedy of errors and baloney.

Hell, get em all 12# DAO revolvers with manual safeties and one bullet to carry in their front shirt pocket... -OR- Get 'em some serious training time at the range in stress-fire mode, no matter the cost. Repeat as required.

Sorry artherd. I ain't poking fun at you, cause we both know you're 1000% right.

[Garrum]

Should the gun carrying citizen who might have witnesses this event also defended this man's life? (Let's not answer that question... it leads us down a very, very, VERY scary path!)

Think about it. If you had witnessed this, you would have seen a cop order a person out of passenger seat of the patrol car at gun point, and then shoot the person without provocation. To hell with the guy he just killed in front of me, I would be worried that I would be next so there wouldn't be any witnesses to the execution. That's fear for my life, as well as fear for the guy that just got shot for no reason.

[Sgt Stevo]

I went through POST back in 92. The fire arms qual, was done from the holster. BUT, they taught us at Hancoock in Santa Maria, were I went through. Too keep our finger out of the guard. Until we were going to shoot.

The holster was most likly a level three of some type. I wont explain how it works here. But you have a couple of different things to do, Too release your gun. But there is nothing to hold down or whatever. Thats silly...........

[artherd]

Baba- absolutely no offence taken at all! (rather ammusing I might add. And I agree with you 100% I too wonder who the hell "jimmy" is, and why he's qualified to make comments to the press about the suitability of law-enforcement gear used by over 60% of LE?)


Think about it. If you had witnessed this, you would have seen a cop order a person out of passenger seat of the patrol car at gun point, and then shoot the person without provocation. To hell with the guy he just killed in front of me, I would be worried that I would be next so there wouldn't be any witnesses to the execution. That's fear for my life, as well as fear for the guy that just got shot for no reason.

YES, it is a very scary situation. However it's exactly the situation that the founders envisioned when they crafted ammendment #2. It's not there for hunters, and it's not there for plinking. It's to guard against the unthinkable.

Unfortunately, the unthinkable aparently happened April 7th in Bay Minette, Alabama.



What's even scarier, imagine the hypothetical trial for this citizen/hero (could be any one of us.) It'd make the Martha Stewart trial look fair and unbiased.

Now compare that to this murderer (officer/shooter) walking away?

[Baba Louie]

The holster was most likly a level three of some type. I wont explain how it works here. But you have a couple of different things to do, Too release your gun. But there is nothing to hold down or whatever. Thats silly........... Sgt, I'd thought about the holster thing too for a half minute and came to the realization that unless this young feller's face was right down next to Trooper Angel's holster (and I don't EVEN want to think about those implications), that said trooper had probably cleared leather and raised his "loose trigger finger encouraging" weapon up to, oh, say, shoot him through the neck height before "the pistol went off".
The grand jury issued a report encouraging the state to review whether that type of pistol should be used in state service. Even tho' I don't have ALL the facts of what occured, and I wasn't there, and I typically refrain from bashing LEO... I might be predisposed to substitute the word "Individual" for the word "pistol" in the above quote. But as I said, I'm loathe to monday morning QB'ing and a poor judge of proper police procedure.
"It appears that the trooper reacted based upon his training with the weapon issued to him by the state," the report said. Training, huh? Might want to re-evaluate that training program a scosh.

Then again, maybe it's a lesson for all youngsters who drive around without a D/L in a "borrowed" car with a broken tail light. It's a cold cruel world we live in Master Jack.

[alan]

I don't know what the law inm alsabvama says about driving a stolen car, absend a driveres l;isence, the car allegedly haaving a bad tail/brake light, however I seriously doubt that ANY of these offenses are capitol crimes.

On a great many police cruisers, one sees something to the effect of To Protect and Serve. Wonder what the emblem, if any, on Alabama State POlice cruisers says.

While the trigger arrangement on Glock pistols might well leave something to be desired, I personally do not care for Glocks, it appears that there was a much greater problem with this particular officer, or the training arrangements utilized in Alabama.

[Sgt Stevo]

LOL, It took me a minute. But I get it. Your killin me!

[No4Mk1*]

So the grand jury thinks it is ok to point a loaded gun at someone, put your finger on the trigger, and pull rearward with 5 pounds of force?

[Treylis]

You guys realize, of course, that the chance of there being anyone on that grand jury who knew the slightest thing about firearms is virtually nil. Sigh.

[Nightfall]

I really can't believe this. A police officer shoots an unarmed man who isn't resisting arrest in the neck, and a jury finds the Glock guilty? Officer dumb arse gets his job back, a precedent for suing Glock is set, and America sinks a little deeper into the Pit of Stupidity™. Can you imagine what would have happened if a CHL holder had shot an unarmed man in the neck? I can guarantee you a jury wouldn't blame his gun for "encouraging a loose trigger finger". I can guarantee you the antis would harp on it until the end of days. I can guarantee you Glock would still get bad press, and I can guarantee you that person wouldn't see the light of day for a good, long time.

But hey, he was a cop, so it's all okay. Standing Wolf, what's that comment? "Yeah, but we're not living in a police state." Just a state of mind blowing idiocy. *sigh*

[artherd]

How come Glock always takes the bashing when there's a million other pistols out there with 5-lb or less triggers?

Agree with your assesment, from the couch, the only defective part in that whole patrol car was the nut behind the wheel.

While the trigger arrangement on Glock pistols might well leave something to be desired, I personally do not care for Glocks, it appears that there was a much greater problem with this particular officer, or the training arrangements utilized in Alabama.

[jonptoms]

How come Glock always takes the bashing when there's a million other pistols out there with 5-lb or less triggers?



Because there are more of them out there (glocks).

I bet the BGs are thrilled that cops carry guns with a hard/long DA pull so they jerk their first shot - gives the BG a much better chance to get the first hit. BGs don't have a department policy to hamstring them on what they carry.

[artherd]

Glock--5 lb. trigger pull at about 1"

1911--5 lb. trigger pull at ?????

Whaddday thimk they'd do with a 1911.

Probally use it safely and effectively, like LAPD SWAT does.

Oh, nevermind, wait, it'd hop up out of it's holster on it's own volition, then go full-auto and kill a bus full of nuns and bunnies, while it's officer slept.

[Art Eatman]

Been messin' with handguns for a long time. Been around a lot of people shooting handguns. Done the IPSC thing and all that. Been around a fair number of LEOs, through the years.

Based on what the news articles said, I blame the PD's administration for the shooting. Even a self-taught pistolero benefits from proper training and correction of mistakes in procedure. Absent proper training? Foolishness and tragedy.

As to the Grand Jury, ignorance usually triumphs, and in this instance my opinion is that it did indeed triumph.

It occurs to me that if IPSC guys can run around and go all high speed with their race guns with 2# triggers without AD problems, there's little excuse for an AD with a 5# trigger. Again, no proper training.

Art

[CrudeGT]

BAY MINETTE, Ala. (AP) -- A grand jury cleared a state trooper in the killing of a suspected car thief, saying the officer's gun encouraged a loose trigger finger.
'psst, hey, officer'
"what's that, who's talking to me?"
'It's me, you're glock, hey, pull my trigger... I really want you to pull me trigger'

I want a gun that talks to me, it'd be a little more calming than the voices in my head.

The Baldwin County grand jury placed the blame for the shooting on the service pistol used by state troopers, which is easier to fire than some other weapons used by law enforcement officers.
yeah, this gun requires the user to apply pressure to the trigger, while other guns require the user to... um... No, actually they're all about the same.

When Rodriguez stopped Taylor's car for a broken tail light, he put Taylor in the passenger's seat of the patrol car after Taylor couldn't produce a valid driver's license. Then Rodriguez found out the car was reported stolen.

Rodriguez ordered Taylor out of the car and pulled the pistol out of its holster, which is standard procedure, the grand jury said.


Two things occur to me while reading these lines:

1) Isn't it procedure to search the individual before placing him/her in the patrol car?

2)wouldn't that mean that the officer KNEW that Taylor was unarmed, and that pulling his own gun was NOT procedure. Unless of course he didn't follow that procedure either.


"You're under a lot of stress. ... Your adrenaline is running," Johnson said in an interview. "You tighten up your hands. It's not that hard for a weapon to be discharged."


UNLESS YOUR FINGER IS NO WHERE NEAR THE TRIGGER. In which case it's pretty hard for the gun to discharge.

This whole story has 'missing info' OR 'horrible training/procedure' written all over it. I get the feeling something happened when Taylor got out of the car that we aren't being told of.

[PATH]

Remember the rule that says you should keep your finger off the trigger until you have made the decision to destroy that which is in front of you.
The officer PULLED THE TRIGGER!!! Glocks have a habit of not going off until someone PULLS THE TRIGGER!!!

The officer put his finger on the TRIGGER AND PULLED!!! The officer as at fault not the Glock. I have yet to see a Glock of any type go off of its own voilition. NYPD has a monster pull somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 pounds as I recall. There are still incidents where the officer has an ND.

Draw duty firearm but first ENGAGE BRAIN!!!!!

This smacks of passing responsibility from the state pure and simple!

[atek3]

This thread is a whole big bunch of LEO-bashers. Where are the boy's in blue to tell us how we "just don't understand".

atek3

[CrudeGT]

Let's see what rules the officer didn't follow

1.) every gun is always loaded (doesn't quite apply)
2.) keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to pull it (yep, screwed that one up.)
3.) Only point the barrel at what you want to destroy (the gun should not have been pointed at Taylor until there was a threat, the cop botched this one too)
4.) KNow your target and what's beyond it (he knew the target, the problem was that Taylor should not have been a target until there was a threat, see rule #3)

This cops needs to be kicked off the force and needs to have his firearm privileges revoked.

[Obiwan]

The real problem here...

Andy let Barney put the bullets in his gun....

[Steel]

I would like to hear Colonel Cooper on this one