[AnklePocket]

...when they come at me with guns ablaze?:

When people like me were opposing the Nazi's, people like you were voting them into office.

Please don't yell at me if I'm way off base. I'm just trying to develop a very brief, clear and accurate response only to those who really deserve one.

[Baba Louie]

When people like me were opposing the Nazi's, people like you were voting them into office. Comin' on strong eh? Always hate the Nazi thing, but that's just me. I'd prefer an American themed retort, such as, "When people like me were standing on Concord bridge standing up to the redcoats, people like you were cowering in awe groveling on their knees trying to remain safe and chained by your masters". Or somesuch. Somewhere there's a quote by Sam Adams about licking the boots or hand that feeds you... something like that I'll try to find.
Like I said, I think relating anti's to Nazi's is counter-productive, tho it may be truthful in a way. YMMV

[Andrew Skaggs]

While I believe this statement is true, in almost any sort of serious discussion or debate you just lost. We associate the Nazis with such strong emotions that grouping anyone with them will turn off their brains and begin a shouting match. Now you could say that an Anti's brain is already off but we must try to turn it back on if we ever want to convince them that guns aren't evil.

[Sean Cloherty]

I think you a referring to my sig Baba Louie.

[gunsmith]

the Germans,who had little problem turning intheir guns to "fight crime"
voted for the third reich.
The problem is anti's hate history and facts and can not comprehend it's bearing on todays political situation.
The anti will allways bleat "it can't happen here"

[boofus]

I've pretty much given up on converting the hard core liberals, commies, and green party freaks. You can quote CDC reports, ATF statements, FBI Uniform Crime Reports, international reports, personal experience stories, whatever and it will not sway their opinion that guns are wrong. To them 'sensible gun control' is what Feinswine said 'Mr and Mrs America turn them all in'.

Just listen to that bullsh*t on NPR or Pacifika. They support convicted cop-killers like Mumia Abu-Jamal, and claim he's innocent. But treat the average law abiding gun owner like convicted terrorists. Total hypocrisy. Basically I just tell them

'Try to rob me and you will get shot in the face.'

Confiscation is the same as theft. Bleeding heart liberals are just like criminal predators, the only thing they understand is force.

[Baba Louie]

Sean,
You da man. :D
Your basic honest to god anti... nothin you can say, nothin you can do... will sway him (maybe, see below). Kinda like your basic honest to god gun owner... nothin you can say, nothin you can do.

It boils down to this AnklePocket... ya look 'em in the eye and say (and I wish I was the original author of this here quote)... "Look me square in my eyes and tell me, Are you willing to die taking my guns away from me?" I've only done that twice after reading it on-line (probably here, TFL or GT) and the dominant individual will watch as the other party looks away first. It IS brutally honest. If they don't blink and are honest and answer "YES" smile and say, "Good fer you. Bring it on" or words to that effect. It's always nice to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Ya might not want to do this with yer boss.

[MeekandMild]

I try to disengage from liberal neofascists. So I just look at them and tell them to come back when they grow up a bit, otherwise to go breath somebody else's air.

[Baba Louie]

Meek,
Where's the fun in that? ;) I mean, it beats "Nanny Nanny Boo Boo" and shows a modicum of restraint and all, but don't you like to get them "Yosemite Sam hoppin' mad" just to watch their faces get all red and stuff? :D (I love Bugs Bunny cartoons)

[boofus]

Hehe that's one reason I'm probably voting for Bush in Nov. He's kinda goofy and ain't too bright. But he sure does make those leftwingers crazy.

That alone is enough reason to vote for him for me. Is spite a legitimate reason to vote for a candidate? :D

As long as he doesn't sign another AWB he's almost assured my vote simply for the liberal aggravation factor.

[AnklePocket]

Can I add to your question, Baba Louie, and say "Because, just like millions before me, I'm willing to die to keep my guns. Wonder who's gonna win in the end; you or me."?
And I have fantastic bosses. Not a liberal in the bunch. Most of my customers are pretty conservative as well.

[Oleg Volk]

"Taking any property from other people by force or coersion gives the victims a stong incentive to eliminate the transgressor. If you want somebody's guns taken from them, would you be willing to risk getting killed in the attempt, or would you want someone to risk his life trying to do it for you?"

The progression of questions should be: what do you want to do, why do you want to do it, and how do you propose to do it? Somewhere along that line, most people would run into internal contradictions and re-think their position.

[Herself]

Oleg, I think you are one of the coolest guys ever, and exceptionally bright, but most folks don't do a lot of "rethinking" once you guide them, be it ever so gently, to see their own internal contradictions. They just get angry.

In an ideal world, Ayn Rand can suggest, "Examine your premises," and folks do and it all goes right. In the real world, they made Socrates drink hemlock for doing the same thing with more tact than Miss Rand usually had patience for.

I love reason. It's wonderful stuff. But most antis aren't into reasoning. Heck, most people aren't.

--Herself

[cdbeaver]

Sorta reminds me of a wartime thing:


There are those who gave so much; and there are those who took so much and gave nothing in return.

[La Pistoletta]

Well, it's an extremely collectivist thing to say.

[Standing Wolf]

Trying to reason with true anti-Second Amendment bigots is like trying to teach pigs to dance: the pigs don't learn to dance, and we just get all muddy.

[Tropical Z]

I think its a perfect response,and one of a very few things you could say to a liberal that they might actually understand.:cool:

[Blackcloud6]

Nope, not too harsh because what I usually say: "Go away you stupid Delta Alpha!" is not to harsh in my book either.

[biere]

An alternative to asking if they will take your guns is to ask if they plan to send men with guns to come take your guns away. In many cases the discussion stops or they say yes. Never had anyone say no, still hoping. :D

Anyway, you can then mention all the wonderful things that happen in police states. Just let history show you the way.

One person was willing to let the police protect him, the discussion ended when I emailed the link to that court decision that basically says "the police can not always protect you."

[FRIENDLY]

Simple answer- Just say that in the US they only have those rights they have because men & women acted with force to ensure they had them.Without those people you would still be (subjects) of the British Crown.

[Feanaro]

It might be true but to a fence sitter or a TRUELY open minded anti, it might come across as too harsh, cliched or just plain silly. Slogans are useful sometimes but they inevitably dumb the arguement down AT LEAST a little.

[Zundfolge]

Invocation of Godwin's Law* is probably not a good idea if you want to maintain a serious discussion ... 'bout as useful as "I know you are but what am I?" type retorts or a quick kick to the groin area ... you don't actually win the argument ... but you do end it :evil:



Oh ... and Herself's comments are about the most clear and brilliant I've seen on this subject of arguing with antis/liberals/collectivists ... bravo!



* Don't know what Godwin's Law is? go look it up (http://www.google.com/search?q=godwin%27s+law) :p

[Gordon Fink]

I’d prefer an American themed retort.…

“When people like me were freeing the slaves, people like you were voting for secession.”

~G. Fink, with apologies to my Southern brethren

[killermarmot]

the best aproach to angry anti's I'd say would be remain calm and combat their exceedingly emotional responses with as dry, accurate, fact based, rational responces. They will continue to get agressive until their attacks are purely personal and angry and BINGO you just won. every person watching the argument will see their side self destruct while you stay calm, respectful, and inteligent. Making comparisons to NAZIs and such will only make it look like you are trying to insight and you will be instantly labeled a biggot etc etc. happened to me ;)

[ravinraven]

I had a nearly unique experience with an anti-gunner in my coffee crowd. As I approached the group sitting on a gazebo, one said, "He'll know what's going on." As I sat and poured one gal asked, "What's going on in Washington today? Some gun thing?"

"Oh, you mean The Million Moron March? A bunch of anti-liberty idiots are trying to promote our national suicide. That's all. And there is a pro-liberty group gonna be there to counter them." [Or words to that effect]

Boy did it get exciting. One of the old gals in the group had just told everyone how proud she was of her daughter-in-law who had flown to DC to participate in ---guess what--- the MMM! Only she couldn't remember the name of the event. I rendered that little service to the crowd.

I know all these people well and we've been partying and arguing for years. There are three to four retired [now] college profs. Depending on the day. My last job was teaching in a two year college. The retired nurse was the one who's in-law had disgraced the family, one old boy survived pork chop hill years ago. I survived a few years in the air force. A really mixed bag.

It's so nice to slip one in now and then.

I usually refer to "anti-liberty fools" or "national suicide advocates" in any rights discussions. Last 4th of July I came up with the "Liberty Rap" that I recited for about forty of the same type of folks gathered on the lawn of one retired prof to watch fireworks. One "verse" in that said "Oh, the gun control and the loser lobbies. All that anti-liberty crowd. You're [mr. congressman] paying too much heed to them. They're screaming too damn loud." That got rave reviews.

It doesn't do anything for liberty probably, but it feels good to rub their faces in their own crap once in a while.

rr

[XLMiguel]

There's always teh Ben Franklin quote about 'those who would trade essential liberty for a bit of security dessrves neither', or words to that effect.

As previously noted, 'those people' are cowards and hypocrites in that they don't want guns around, but when they're in trouble, the first thing they do is call (911) for someone with a gun to come bail their sorry @$$es out. They won't fight for their own lives, but they expect some underpaid civil servant to do it for them. Similarly, they'd have the government do the dirty work of forceable confiscation:barf: :barf: :fire:

[AnklePocket]

This thread has spawned the following (that I just thought of):

Gun control is nothing more than a cover-up to the failed policies of ineffective politicians.

[Baba Louie]

Gun control is nothing more than a cover-up to the failed policies of ineffective politicians. Not if their policy is to disarm the American populace, then it's all smoke and mirrors and gun crime related for the weak minded who buy it but I know (and you do too AnklePocket)that they want the same thing King George III wanted. Harmless, toothless subjects who will do as they're told because All the King's Horses and All the King's Men are armed to the teeth. "Disperse ya damn Rebels"

And then ya gotta wonder, what do they have in mind NEXT for an unarmed populace? Doh! Again, some of us (almost all here, even if they profess otherwise) know what typically happens to an unarmed flock of sheep. They get shorn, thrown to the lions, or worse.
The purpose of government is to rein in the rights of the people. BJ Clinton

[RAY WOODROW 3RD]

Here is a Ray Woodrow 3rd original (patent pending).

"Debate is a civilized method of dialogue involving two groups seeking the truth. Anti's don't debate or seek the truth. They use emotion to try and choke us out of existence."

RW3

[AnklePocket]

Hey, no need to bring Bryan Miller into this.

[RAY WOODROW 3RD]

GOOD ONE ANKLEPOCKET!

[AZRickD]

when people like me were standing on Concord bridge standing up to the redcoats, people like you were cowering in awe groveling on their knees Point of fact, 100,000 colonists fled north to Canada (more than did during Vietnam).

I used this on a soft liberal lady at work...

1) So, you don't like guns? What do you think of police having guns? No problem with that? So, essentially, you like guns but you want someone else to carry them for you. And as they carry those guns, they enforce laws that you would like passed but maybe people like me don't like. And if I resist, they first go in with the bureaucrat and clip board with the official ID badge, and if the person resists, they'll call in a cop, and if the person still resists, the cop will place them under arrest, and if the person resists, the cop will mace, club, or taze, and if the person resists long enough and hard enough, then you've given the cop justification to use lethal force. So, when you pass a law, you are really giving government the power to enforce that law, no matter how small or large, with the power to kill those who resist.

She told me the next day that she couldn't sleep that night. I can't tell if she changed her mind, but she doesn't engage me in argument anymore.

Another one I use is:

2) Okay, you want this new anti-gun bill to pass. But as I have shown you, all the previous gun laws, (many just like it) have been shown to have failed in reducing crime. So we know this one, if passed will fail too. So, what law will you pass to replace it? And since that one has already been shown to fail, what will you suggest next? And the next? And the next?

Rick

[C-Note]

When arguing with Leftists, you have to "out-victim" them. I play the "Armed Jew Who's Learned His Lessons from the Holocaust" card:

"Out of all the Jews who were shipped to the death camps in boxcars and herded into gas chambers, how many of them do you think were armed? Never again!"

Usually shuts them right up.