mete
May 30, 2004, 12:16 PM
Saddam Hussein's pistol which he had at the time of his capture is now at the White House. According to TIME magazine , soldiers involved in the capture presented the pistol to the President.
Bush a War Trophy Gun Owner?
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BryanP
May 30, 2004, 12:40 PM
Here's a direct link to the story. (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040607-644112,00.html)
A Saddam Souvenir
President Bush keeps the former dictator's pistol at arm's reach
By MATTHEW COOPER
Saturday, May. 29, 2004
When Saddam Hussein was rousted from his spider hole in Dawr, a town near Tikrit, by U.S. soldiers last December, Iraq's fallen dictator was clutching a pistol. He is now in detention at an undisclosed location, being questioned by American authorities and awaiting charges for war atrocities and crimes against humanity. But what ever happened to the pistol?
The sidearm has made its way to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Sources say that the military had the pistol mounted after the soldiers seized it from Saddam and that it was then presented to the President privately by some of the troops who played a key role in ferreting out the old tyrant. Though it was widely reported at the time that the pistol was loaded when they grabbed Saddam, Bush has told visitors that the gun was empty—and that it is still empty and safe to touch. "He really liked showing it off," says a recent visitor to the White House who has seen the gun. "He was really proud of it."
The pistol's new place of residence is in the small study next to the Oval Office where Bush takes select visitors after pointing out better-known White House pieces like the busts of Winston Churchill and Dwight D. Eisenhower and a watercolor called A Charge to Keep, which gets its name from a Methodist hymn. The study—the one where Bill Clinton held some of his infamous trysts with White House intern Monica Lewinsky—has become a place where Bush keeps the memorabilia that hold special significance for him. Another of the room's mementos: a photograph of special-forces soldiers in Afghanistan praying after burying a piece of the World Trade Center there as a tribute to those who died in the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001.
From the Jun. 07, 2004 issue of TIME magazine
A Saddam Souvenir
President Bush keeps the former dictator's pistol at arm's reach
By MATTHEW COOPER
Saturday, May. 29, 2004
When Saddam Hussein was rousted from his spider hole in Dawr, a town near Tikrit, by U.S. soldiers last December, Iraq's fallen dictator was clutching a pistol. He is now in detention at an undisclosed location, being questioned by American authorities and awaiting charges for war atrocities and crimes against humanity. But what ever happened to the pistol?
The sidearm has made its way to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Sources say that the military had the pistol mounted after the soldiers seized it from Saddam and that it was then presented to the President privately by some of the troops who played a key role in ferreting out the old tyrant. Though it was widely reported at the time that the pistol was loaded when they grabbed Saddam, Bush has told visitors that the gun was empty—and that it is still empty and safe to touch. "He really liked showing it off," says a recent visitor to the White House who has seen the gun. "He was really proud of it."
The pistol's new place of residence is in the small study next to the Oval Office where Bush takes select visitors after pointing out better-known White House pieces like the busts of Winston Churchill and Dwight D. Eisenhower and a watercolor called A Charge to Keep, which gets its name from a Methodist hymn. The study—the one where Bill Clinton held some of his infamous trysts with White House intern Monica Lewinsky—has become a place where Bush keeps the memorabilia that hold special significance for him. Another of the room's mementos: a photograph of special-forces soldiers in Afghanistan praying after burying a piece of the World Trade Center there as a tribute to those who died in the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001.
From the Jun. 07, 2004 issue of TIME magazine
Waitone
May 30, 2004, 01:04 PM
Though it was widely reported at the time that the pistol was loaded when they grabbed Saddam, Bush has told visitors that the gun was empty—and that it is still empty and safe to touch. Now then. Is that last part indeed a fact of the story or is it helpful background information the "journalist" provided to make sure the reader understood all the ramifications of a firearm in the Oval Office.
I'll be willing to be the latter.
I'll be willing to be the latter.
CAPTAIN MIKE
May 30, 2004, 01:27 PM
The small study just off the Oval Office. That is where the pistol (mounted by soldiers involved in Saddam's capture) is kept. The President takes pride in pointing it out to visitors. In the same room is artwork depicting American special forces soldiers in a circle, arms around each others' shoulders, in prayer, after burying a piece of the World Trade Center in Afghanistan.
This seems to me to be a much "Higher Road" use of the room. The previous President used to take Monica Lewinsky in there.
This seems to me to be a much "Higher Road" use of the room. The previous President used to take Monica Lewinsky in there.
Sunray
May 30, 2004, 02:41 PM
Isn't owning a pistol in D.C. illegal?
Hkmp5sd
May 30, 2004, 02:50 PM
I wonder if they filled out the appropriate ATF forms to import a war trophy. Wouldn't want GWB to be in possession of an illegally imported handgun now would we? I also wonder if Bush used the "Gun Show Loophole" to take possession or did he undergo the background check.
If Bush wanted to do something nice, he should auction the gun to the public and used the funds to help the families of the KIAs.
If Bush wanted to do something nice, he should auction the gun to the public and used the funds to help the families of the KIAs.
SodiumBenzoate
May 30, 2004, 03:22 PM
Isn't owning a pistol in D.C. illegal?
Yes, but it is probably government owned, and not actually Bush's.
Yes, but it is probably government owned, and not actually Bush's.
LAR-15
May 30, 2004, 03:28 PM
Considering how it's now White House property, even if it had a high cap magazine, it's now owned by Fed.gov.
Makes it DC legal.
Makes it DC legal.
Jim March
May 30, 2004, 04:38 PM
OK, so what IS the danged thing?
Mr. Mysterious
May 30, 2004, 04:58 PM
This seems to me to be a much "Higher Road" use of the room. The previous President used to take Monica Lewinsky in there.
Boy, isn't that the truth...
Boy, isn't that the truth...
mete
May 30, 2004, 05:00 PM
Thought everyone knew - Saddam has always carried a BHP ! So he'a not ALL bad .Maybe someone can dig up a picture of Saddam firing his BHP.
Mr. Mysterious
May 30, 2004, 05:20 PM
Only one that I could find
http://www.storyhousepro.com/images/Saddam_with_gun.jpg
http://www.storyhousepro.com/images/Saddam_with_gun.jpg
Waitone
May 30, 2004, 06:27 PM
Someone email the WH and ask.
WonderNine
May 30, 2004, 07:13 PM
The gun they found him with was supposed to be a Makarov.
Zip06
May 30, 2004, 07:20 PM
WonderNine is correct. It is a Mak
FPrice
May 30, 2004, 07:25 PM
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040607-644112,00.html?cnn=yes
"Bush Keeps Saddam Gun at White House
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A handgun that Saddam Hussein was clutching when U.S. forces captured him in a hole in Iraq last December is now kept by President Bush at the White House, a spokesman confirmed on Sunday.
Time magazine, which first disclosed the gun's location, said military officials had it mounted after it was seized from Saddam near his hometown of Tikrit last year, and soldiers involved in the capture gave it to Bush.
The magazine quoted a visitor who had been shown the gun, which is kept in a small study off the Oval Office where Bush displays memorabilia. It is the same room where former President Bill Clinton had some of his encounters with former intern Monica Lewinsky.
Bush shows Saddam's gun to select visitors, telling them it is unloaded, both now and when Saddam was captured, Time reported.
"He really liked showing it off," Time quoted a visitor as saying. "He was really proud of it."
White House spokesman Jim Morrell said, "The president was proud of the performance and bravery of our armed forces and was honored to receive it on behalf of the troops involved in the operation."
"Bush Keeps Saddam Gun at White House
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A handgun that Saddam Hussein was clutching when U.S. forces captured him in a hole in Iraq last December is now kept by President Bush at the White House, a spokesman confirmed on Sunday.
Time magazine, which first disclosed the gun's location, said military officials had it mounted after it was seized from Saddam near his hometown of Tikrit last year, and soldiers involved in the capture gave it to Bush.
The magazine quoted a visitor who had been shown the gun, which is kept in a small study off the Oval Office where Bush displays memorabilia. It is the same room where former President Bill Clinton had some of his encounters with former intern Monica Lewinsky.
Bush shows Saddam's gun to select visitors, telling them it is unloaded, both now and when Saddam was captured, Time reported.
"He really liked showing it off," Time quoted a visitor as saying. "He was really proud of it."
White House spokesman Jim Morrell said, "The president was proud of the performance and bravery of our armed forces and was honored to receive it on behalf of the troops involved in the operation."
Hawkmoon
May 30, 2004, 09:10 PM
All well and good if it STAYS in the White House when he leaves. He has no right to keep it in perpetuity once he reverts to being a "citizen" like the rest of us.
Unless the gummint suddenly decides to allow soldiers from the sandpile to keep any AK-47s and other assorted weapons they might come across. That would be one way to reduce the size of some of those arms caches we keep reading about.
Unless the gummint suddenly decides to allow soldiers from the sandpile to keep any AK-47s and other assorted weapons they might come across. That would be one way to reduce the size of some of those arms caches we keep reading about.
Clean97GTI
May 30, 2004, 09:13 PM
Thats cool with me. The White House is more than just a place to keep the president. It is an exhibit that shows the strength and principles this country was founded on. The captured gun is just a reminder of how the US tries to make the world a better place.
mete
May 30, 2004, 09:14 PM
Over the many years I never saw him with anything but a BHP.
mountainclmbr
May 30, 2004, 09:27 PM
What!!! A gun in DC???? Won't the crime rate go up???? I can picture the violence...the same as a Hollywood movie!!!! It will start killing innocent people on its own!!! It would be safer if Saddam kept it!!!!
Oh, sorry, just trying to figure out how the left thinks.
Oh, sorry, just trying to figure out how the left thinks.
telomerase
May 30, 2004, 09:50 PM
Is it really legal for the President to have a handgun in DC? Not that he shouldn't, of course; most DC citizens should have a handgun. Just wondering how the legalities work.
Hkmp5sd
May 30, 2004, 09:58 PM
Duplicate thread.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84575
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84575
MountainPeak
May 30, 2004, 11:26 PM
So!
Stebalo
May 31, 2004, 01:17 AM
Somehow, I don't think this was registered pre the 1976 handgun ban.
This will be sure to drive the murder rate through the roof.
Oh wait, it already is through the roof.
Washington DC 46.4 murders per 100,000 -- no handguns
Arlington, VA 2.1 murders per 100,000 -- handguns a'plenty
It's time to end the sham.
This will be sure to drive the murder rate through the roof.
Oh wait, it already is through the roof.
Washington DC 46.4 murders per 100,000 -- no handguns
Arlington, VA 2.1 murders per 100,000 -- handguns a'plenty
It's time to end the sham.
Stand_Watie
May 31, 2004, 01:35 AM
Is it really legal for the President to have a handgun in DC? Not that he shouldn't, of course; most DC citizens should have a handgun. Just wondering how the legalities work.
Doesn't the DC ban exempt the military in the course of their duties? I imagine he could pull the commander in chief rank in a pinch. Otherwise he could have it put in a display case with a lock on it, the key in the pocket of whatever secret service agent was on duty at the time, and he wouldn't be in "posession" of it.
Edit to answer my own question. Here is the list of DC exceptions, nice and long to make sure that plenty of people in the special classes are allowed to own weapons that us second class citizens can't
****
TEXT
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA OFFICIAL CODE 2001 EDITION
DIVISION IV. CRIMINAL LAW AND PROCEDURE AND PRISONERS.
TITLE 22. CRIMINAL OFFENSES AND PENALTIES.
SUBTITLE VI. REGULATION AND POSSESSION OF WEAPONS.
CHAPTER 45. WEAPONS AND POSSESSION OF WEAPONS.
§ 22-4505. Exceptions to § 22-4504.
TEXT (a)
(a) The provisions of § 22-4504 shall not apply to marshals, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens, or their deputies, policemen or other duly appointed law enforcement officers, including special agents of the Office of Tax and Revenue, authorized in writing by the Deputy Chief Financial Officer for the Office of Tax and Revenue to carry a firearm while engaged in the performance of their official duties, and criminal investigators of the Office of the Inspector General, designated in writing by the Inspector General, while engaged in the performance of their official duties, or to members of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps of the United States or of the National Guard or Organized Reserves when on duty, or to the regularly enrolled members of any organization duly authorized to purchase or receive such weapons from the United States, provided such members are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, or to officers or employees of the United States duly authorized to carry a concealed pistol, or to any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of any such person having in his or her possession, using, or carrying a pistol in the usual or ordinary course of such business, or to any person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his or her home or place of business or to a place of repair or back to his or her home or place of business or in moving goods from one place of abode or business to another.
TEXT (b)
(b) The provisions of § 22-4504 with respect to pistols shall not apply to a police officer who has retired from the Metropolitan Police Department, if the police officer has registered a pistol and it is concealed on or about the police officer.
http://dccode.westgroup.com/Find/Default.wl?DocName=DCCODES22-4505&FindType=W&DB=DC-TOC-WEB%3BSTADCTOC&RS=WLW2%2E07&VR=2%2E0
Doesn't the DC ban exempt the military in the course of their duties? I imagine he could pull the commander in chief rank in a pinch. Otherwise he could have it put in a display case with a lock on it, the key in the pocket of whatever secret service agent was on duty at the time, and he wouldn't be in "posession" of it.
Edit to answer my own question. Here is the list of DC exceptions, nice and long to make sure that plenty of people in the special classes are allowed to own weapons that us second class citizens can't
****
TEXT
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA OFFICIAL CODE 2001 EDITION
DIVISION IV. CRIMINAL LAW AND PROCEDURE AND PRISONERS.
TITLE 22. CRIMINAL OFFENSES AND PENALTIES.
SUBTITLE VI. REGULATION AND POSSESSION OF WEAPONS.
CHAPTER 45. WEAPONS AND POSSESSION OF WEAPONS.
§ 22-4505. Exceptions to § 22-4504.
TEXT (a)
(a) The provisions of § 22-4504 shall not apply to marshals, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens, or their deputies, policemen or other duly appointed law enforcement officers, including special agents of the Office of Tax and Revenue, authorized in writing by the Deputy Chief Financial Officer for the Office of Tax and Revenue to carry a firearm while engaged in the performance of their official duties, and criminal investigators of the Office of the Inspector General, designated in writing by the Inspector General, while engaged in the performance of their official duties, or to members of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps of the United States or of the National Guard or Organized Reserves when on duty, or to the regularly enrolled members of any organization duly authorized to purchase or receive such weapons from the United States, provided such members are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, or to officers or employees of the United States duly authorized to carry a concealed pistol, or to any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of any such person having in his or her possession, using, or carrying a pistol in the usual or ordinary course of such business, or to any person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his or her home or place of business or to a place of repair or back to his or her home or place of business or in moving goods from one place of abode or business to another.
TEXT (b)
(b) The provisions of § 22-4504 with respect to pistols shall not apply to a police officer who has retired from the Metropolitan Police Department, if the police officer has registered a pistol and it is concealed on or about the police officer.
http://dccode.westgroup.com/Find/Default.wl?DocName=DCCODES22-4505&FindType=W&DB=DC-TOC-WEB%3BSTADCTOC&RS=WLW2%2E07&VR=2%2E0
Master Blaster
May 31, 2004, 06:46 AM
All well and good if it STAYS in the White House when he leaves. He has no right to keep it in perpetuity once he reverts to being a "citizen" like the rest of us.
He will NEVER EVER again be an ordinary citizen like the rest of US.
He will be former president which means he will have an ARMED secret service detail follow him around for the rest of his life. He will have other special priviledges and responsibilities as well.
Because he took on Alqueada and Sadaam , he will have a bullseye painted on his back everywhere he goes for the rest of his life.
He will NEVER EVER again be an ordinary citizen like the rest of US.
He will be former president which means he will have an ARMED secret service detail follow him around for the rest of his life. He will have other special priviledges and responsibilities as well.
Because he took on Alqueada and Sadaam , he will have a bullseye painted on his back everywhere he goes for the rest of his life.
Waitone
May 31, 2004, 08:55 AM
IIRC the WH is tied to something like the Smithsonian to collect and store the many gifts other state bring to the president. Seems there is a full policy and procedure that is followed which effectively keeps the President from keep any gift greater that some piddling amount like $250. (Dark and dusty memory drawers are being opened and examine here).
If Dubya does indeed have SH pistol it will end up an a museum somewhere.
If Dubya does indeed have SH pistol it will end up an a museum somewhere.
HankB
May 31, 2004, 12:38 PM
Saddam's pistol should end up somewhere like the Smithsonian or in some other museum. Not in GWB's white house.
It's my understanding that soldiers returning from the Middle East are, in defiance of lonstanding tradition, no longer allowed to bring home ANYTHING that shoots as a war trophy . . . so no MAKs, BHPs, SKSs, or anything else for the regular GIs . . . you know the ones who actually GO OUT AND DO THE WORK.
But El Presidente, who wasn't even in combat, gets a nice souvenir.
Like that character in a Mel Brooks movie said, "It's good to be King!"
It's my understanding that soldiers returning from the Middle East are, in defiance of lonstanding tradition, no longer allowed to bring home ANYTHING that shoots as a war trophy . . . so no MAKs, BHPs, SKSs, or anything else for the regular GIs . . . you know the ones who actually GO OUT AND DO THE WORK.
But El Presidente, who wasn't even in combat, gets a nice souvenir.
Like that character in a Mel Brooks movie said, "It's good to be King!"
Red Dane
May 31, 2004, 02:01 PM
I got a kick out of CNN's news byte on this subject.. the reporter (can't remember her name, the Oriental one.. (thats the only way I can identify her, really CUTE btw) spoke in a tone that suggested "Oh! the HORROR! he has a HANDGUN!".
Really, all of this news media based paranoia about handguns is getting to the stage of silliness now. I'm more worried about getting into an auto-accident or choking on food then someone shooting at me. Why are people so afraid of handguns? the people scare me, not the tool.
Really, all of this news media based paranoia about handguns is getting to the stage of silliness now. I'm more worried about getting into an auto-accident or choking on food then someone shooting at me. Why are people so afraid of handguns? the people scare me, not the tool.
mercedesrules
May 31, 2004, 02:28 PM
(Clean97GTI) Thats cool with me. The White House is more than just a place to keep the president. It is an exhibit that shows the strength and principles this country was founded on. The captured gun is just a reminder of how the US tries to make the world a better place.
Haha! Good one! :D
Sorry, Oleg.:o
Haha! Good one! :D
Sorry, Oleg.:o
Stebalo
May 31, 2004, 03:13 PM
He will be former president which means he will have an ARMED secret service detail follow him around for the rest of his life.
Actually, Clinton is the last president to enjoy lifelong Treasury protection. The law was changed during Clinton's presidency so starting with GWB, presidents and their wives will only have SS protection for 10 years after leaving office. This was Public Law 103-329 and took effect January 1, 1997.
Actually, Clinton is the last president to enjoy lifelong Treasury protection. The law was changed during Clinton's presidency so starting with GWB, presidents and their wives will only have SS protection for 10 years after leaving office. This was Public Law 103-329 and took effect January 1, 1997.
ReadyontheRight
May 31, 2004, 03:15 PM
Seems there is a full policy and procedure that is followed which effectively keeps the President from keep any gift greater that some piddling amount like $250.
Discount the fact that it was owned by the loser from Tikrit -- is a Mak worth more than $250?
So the left gets all worked up because a HANDGUN (horrors!) is in the White House. And some on the right get all worked up because the regular guys can't take their own souveniers home. Didn't the regular guys choose to give this to the President?
Regardless of the politics -- why can't this just be a matter of pride that our troops fulfilled their duty, captured this scumbag and presented his personal sidearem to the U.S. Commander in Chief?
Discount the fact that it was owned by the loser from Tikrit -- is a Mak worth more than $250?
So the left gets all worked up because a HANDGUN (horrors!) is in the White House. And some on the right get all worked up because the regular guys can't take their own souveniers home. Didn't the regular guys choose to give this to the President?
Regardless of the politics -- why can't this just be a matter of pride that our troops fulfilled their duty, captured this scumbag and presented his personal sidearem to the U.S. Commander in Chief?
Art Eatman
May 31, 2004, 03:37 PM
Some gifts and trophies stay in the White House at the end of a presidency; some are placed in whatever presidential museum is built. The LBJ museum in Austin has quite a number of valuable gift-items on display.
I can't see any troops happily giving a notable firearm to a Clinton...
:), Art
I can't see any troops happily giving a notable firearm to a Clinton...
:), Art
dinosaur
May 31, 2004, 06:42 PM
Considering about the only thing the Klingons didn't do when they left the White House was burn it to the ground, a Mak would be the least that would turn up missing.:cuss:
Master Blaster
June 1, 2004, 12:54 PM
Actually, Clinton is the last president to enjoy lifelong Treasury protection. The law was changed during Clinton's presidency so starting with GWB, presidents and their wives will only have SS protection for 10 years after leaving office. This was Public Law 103-329 and took effect January 1, 1997.
Jeez maybe he better load that gun and keep it on him then.:what:
Jeez maybe he better load that gun and keep it on him then.:what:
bountyhunter
June 1, 2004, 02:01 PM
The small study just off the Oval Office. That is where the pistol (mounted by soldiers involved in Saddam's capture) is kept. The President takes pride in pointing it out to visitors. Imagine how that is going to play in the rest of the world, even among our allies.... that the Bush administration is proudly displaying trophies from the invasion. Some times I think that God left out the wiring in the man's brain that allows one to connect actions with the results that they cause. I say that to be charitable, because I hope no human could be as arrogant as he clearly appears to be.
Mick
June 2, 2004, 09:32 AM
Imagine how that is going to play in the rest of the world, even among our allies.... that the Bush administration is proudly displaying trophies from the invasion. Some times I think that God left out the wiring in the man's brain that allows one to connect actions with the results that they cause. I say that to be charitable, because I hope no human could be as arrogant as he clearly appears to be.
Well if it pisses off the French and the antis then its cool with me!
And if we kill OBL I think he should take the AK with the 2" barrel and display it also...
Well if it pisses off the French and the antis then its cool with me!
And if we kill OBL I think he should take the AK with the 2" barrel and display it also...
Waitone
June 2, 2004, 09:55 AM
And if we kill OBL I think he should take the AK with the 2" barrel and display it also...I was thinkin' display, but not his AK. I was thinkin' something a little more personal and identifiable.
DonP
June 2, 2004, 10:41 AM
For everyone getting their pants in a wad about GWB having or doing anything even vaguely positive ...
The pistola was mounted and presented to him by the troopers involved, in the same manner that the swords or flags of defeated foes were used as symbols of victory for millenia past.
I don't think of it as his personal war trophy, anymore than I think of the U-boat, the U-505 in the Museum of Science and Industry or the Me 109 in the Air and Space museum, as FDR's personal trophies. It probably will wind up in the Smithsonian, or more likely the real life equivalent of that warehouse where they stored the Ark of the Covenant at the end of Raiders.
If our guys hadn't of found and captured Saddam alive we would be hearing from the media and the Democrats, via the NY Times and W Post, daily about how without Saddam we would never hold the country. The troopers decided to offer it to the CiC as a token of their success.
I just hope they have a new trophy next to it soon, in the form of Osama's do-rag, with or without the enclosed head.
As for the reactions of the rest of the world.
Let's see, the Middle East is already killing our civilians while they dance in the streets and sawing the heads off innocent civilians and reporters. It might be a real challenge to have them hate us any more than they already do, huh?
It's a symbol of a deposed, vicious dictator and, aside from some folks over at DU and Moveon.org, I haven't heard anyone say they would be better off with him still in power.
Now, if anyone still feels that this little trophy is inappropriate, please write your letters to the troops that captured Saddam and let them know how wrong they were to celebrate his capture and present their CiC with a small trophy of their work.
But that's just my opinion again.
The pistola was mounted and presented to him by the troopers involved, in the same manner that the swords or flags of defeated foes were used as symbols of victory for millenia past.
I don't think of it as his personal war trophy, anymore than I think of the U-boat, the U-505 in the Museum of Science and Industry or the Me 109 in the Air and Space museum, as FDR's personal trophies. It probably will wind up in the Smithsonian, or more likely the real life equivalent of that warehouse where they stored the Ark of the Covenant at the end of Raiders.
If our guys hadn't of found and captured Saddam alive we would be hearing from the media and the Democrats, via the NY Times and W Post, daily about how without Saddam we would never hold the country. The troopers decided to offer it to the CiC as a token of their success.
I just hope they have a new trophy next to it soon, in the form of Osama's do-rag, with or without the enclosed head.
As for the reactions of the rest of the world.
Let's see, the Middle East is already killing our civilians while they dance in the streets and sawing the heads off innocent civilians and reporters. It might be a real challenge to have them hate us any more than they already do, huh?
It's a symbol of a deposed, vicious dictator and, aside from some folks over at DU and Moveon.org, I haven't heard anyone say they would be better off with him still in power.
Now, if anyone still feels that this little trophy is inappropriate, please write your letters to the troops that captured Saddam and let them know how wrong they were to celebrate his capture and present their CiC with a small trophy of their work.
But that's just my opinion again.
bountyhunter
June 2, 2004, 01:08 PM
It's a symbol of a deposed, vicious dictator Who prior to becoming our enemy was a valued asset on the CIA payroll, an extremely efficient enforcer that we used to crush a country (Iran) who had taken US hostages and installed an Islamic government. And the cold blooded murderer part didn't seem to bother the Reagan admin when they stared off into space and whistled after Saddam gassed a few thousand Kurds.
That trophy is a symbol of a mission so completely bungled it almost staggers the imagination. We took a country without sufficient troops or control infrastructure and the result was that it is in shambles and the civilain deaths are staggering.... and to date, nobody within the Bush admin has ever admitted anything went wrong and NOBODY has been held accountable for the total and complete failure to plan for the mission. Bush failed to deliver on a single promise he used to excuse the war (no WMD's, no links to Al Qaeda, no stockpiles of nerve agents and bio weapons, no active programs or facilities to develop such weapons).
But, you think it's a good idea to hang a trophy o remind everybody of that?
OK by me.:barf:
That trophy is a symbol of a mission so completely bungled it almost staggers the imagination. We took a country without sufficient troops or control infrastructure and the result was that it is in shambles and the civilain deaths are staggering.... and to date, nobody within the Bush admin has ever admitted anything went wrong and NOBODY has been held accountable for the total and complete failure to plan for the mission. Bush failed to deliver on a single promise he used to excuse the war (no WMD's, no links to Al Qaeda, no stockpiles of nerve agents and bio weapons, no active programs or facilities to develop such weapons).
But, you think it's a good idea to hang a trophy o remind everybody of that?
OK by me.:barf:
MrAcheson
June 2, 2004, 01:27 PM
no WMD's, no links to Al Qaeda, no stockpiles of nerve agents and bio weapons, no active programs or facilities to develop such weapons
The only one you didn't get wrong is the stockpiles. We have seen WMDs like the sarin shell. We have seen records of Saddam giving sanctuary to Al Qaeda lieutenants. We also have seen active programs to develop such weapons, but they were not close to the production stage yet.
As an aside, why would someone be worried about Bush having a handgun in the White House when he has nuclear launch codes in his pocket? I mean compared to the ordnance the president has at his command, a makarov pales in comparison.
The only one you didn't get wrong is the stockpiles. We have seen WMDs like the sarin shell. We have seen records of Saddam giving sanctuary to Al Qaeda lieutenants. We also have seen active programs to develop such weapons, but they were not close to the production stage yet.
As an aside, why would someone be worried about Bush having a handgun in the White House when he has nuclear launch codes in his pocket? I mean compared to the ordnance the president has at his command, a makarov pales in comparison.
JohnBT
June 2, 2004, 03:22 PM
"It's a symbol of a deposed, vicious dictator"
Well, it is. And thank goodness he's finally out of power.
bountyhunter - The rest of that history lesson you threw in sounds like a totally different kind of problem you're having with the President. Methinks it is not about the pistol.
John
Well, it is. And thank goodness he's finally out of power.
bountyhunter - The rest of that history lesson you threw in sounds like a totally different kind of problem you're having with the President. Methinks it is not about the pistol.
John
Zip06
June 2, 2004, 04:31 PM
BountyHunter - The eight year war between Iraq and Iran (with hundreds of thousands of casualties on each side) is best not described as Iraq "crushing" Iran.
The_Antibubba
June 3, 2004, 05:36 AM
Maybe he'll wear it when he debates sKerry! :D
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