COPS and Hollowpoints


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ExtremeDooty
May 30, 2004, 11:17 PM
I just watched a Cops episode with a Cops wearing a dew rag (maybe that's duh rag) rousted a kid on a bike with a handgun. First the revolver had San Francisco P.D. engraved on it. Then the cop realized that it was loaded with hollowpoints which are designed to penetrate "standard vests." Sounded like he was trying to say Cop killer.

How did a P.D. gun get into the hands of a kid on a bike?

I'm no expert on ammunition, but I have heard this hollowpoint being a cop killer round before. A lot of people here in Michigan switch from HP to FMJ during the winter because the HP's might not penetrate all the down jackets worn here, but this cop thinks they're designed to penetrate vests.

Do you think some of these people just don't know much about ammunition, or are they just trying to make anti gun statements whenever possible? This episode was from N.Y.

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mfree
May 30, 2004, 11:21 PM
I must say, HP's will definitely penetrate your "standard vest", as it is a tailored piece made of 100% cotton twill or some other stylish fabric.

Now, kevlar.... mmmmmnah.

Rotty
May 30, 2004, 11:22 PM
I think they are just repeating what they heard somewhere and are just plain ignorant about firearms and ammo.
Its not uncommon for some people (LEO's) to not know squat about firearms. Especially in large cities.

lbmii
May 30, 2004, 11:30 PM
Some anit-gun groups were at one time saying that Nyclad hollow points, Glasser, and anything moly or Teflon coated can penetrate bulletproof vests. This might haver been what the officer was thinking.

Coronach
May 30, 2004, 11:35 PM
Yeah.

Cops are a reflection of the general population that they serve. Some are Pro. Some are Anti. Some shoot a lot. Some shoot only a little. Some know stuff about guns, some don't. This trend will vary a lot by region. Pro-gun, rural south? Probably pro gun, well-informed cops. Big city, NE, generally anti area? The percentage of 'gunnies' will be a lot less.

And, as with people in general, the ones who know the least are often the ones with the biggest mouths. ;)

Mike

pax
May 30, 2004, 11:40 PM
Coronach nailed it.

By the way, it's a 'do rag (as in, "Mabel, you got a new hair-do!")

pax

Stebalo
May 31, 2004, 01:13 AM
Here in NJ where hollowpoints are explicitly banned (Can buy and have in home and even shoot at the range. You just can't carry HP in the gun you already can't conceal) they are commonly thought to be AP 'cop killer' bullets.

Walosi
May 31, 2004, 01:30 AM
A couple of old "Cops" episodes, from Philadelphia, IIRC, featured one of their more entertaining street cops, good humored, street wise, and with many service stripes. They found a Tec 9 on one of their stops, loaded with "cop killer bullets", the kind coated with Nylon, which caused them to slip right between the fiber of a Kevlar vest. Other than that little session, this LEO was impressive in how he handled himself and his contacts. I can't say I lost all of my respect for him at that point, but he did show that even some of the better, smarter, street-wise LEOs can fall for the "urban legends".

SodiumBenzoate
May 31, 2004, 01:45 AM
Umm, aren't hollowpoints less likely to penetrate a kevlar vest?

Croyance
May 31, 2004, 02:37 AM
I don't really watch the show, but I'm guessing that many (not all) of the police on the show suddenly feel a need to act really knowledgable and tough. Silly things start coming out of their mouths. You know, like when Barney Fife started expounding on a subject.
Ya see, Andy, these hollow points here are designed to slip right through kevlar. Now the common man thinks that the increased surface area would make it go Splat, or be no more effective than a FMJ, but that's just not the case. Then thar are Cop killer bullets.
When the camera is on you, stick with what you know.

c_yeager
May 31, 2004, 02:55 AM
How did a P.D. gun get into the hands of a kid on a bike?

Back in the good 'ole days when a department switched over to another firearm (revolver to semi's in particular) their old side arms would be sold to the public by distributers retailors etc. It's pretty easy to accept that one or more found their way into a pawn shop in NY or thereabouts

MoNkEyZQ8
May 31, 2004, 03:32 AM
Yeah I also just saw that episode..:uhoh:

Valkman
May 31, 2004, 03:55 AM
Back in the good 'ole days when a department switched over to another firearm (revolver to semi's in particular) their old side arms would be sold to the public by distributers retailors etc. It's pretty easy to accept that one or more found their way into a pawn shop in NY or thereabouts

Same in CA - they used to sell their old guns to the public, but I think our buddy Gray Davis put a stop to that. This kid probably stole it from someone who bought it legit.

dukeofurl
May 31, 2004, 04:10 AM
I had an old K frame engraved Orange County Sherriffs Office, CA

Tom Servo
May 31, 2004, 04:36 AM
Oooo-kay. Liberal gun myth #1: Hollowpoints are cop-killing nuclear death-bullets designed to pierce body armor.

Untrue. Hollowpoints are designed to expand upon impact and transfer the bullet's kinetic energy outward rather than forward. As such, they are much LESS likely to penetrate body armor than FMJ bullets. I know a City of Atlanta officer who once took a .45 Cor-bon dead-center in the chest. He got knocked down and had a hairline fracture in the sternum from the sheer force of the impact, but the bullet did not penetrate.

The whole point of hollowpoint ammunition is that this outward transfer of force increases stopping-power and reduces the possibility of the bullet passing through the body and out the other side, thus preventing it from continuing on its trajectory and injuring third parties. Hollowpoints are also less likely to penetrate walls and strike your neighbors.

If you want something to penetrate body armor, you need a high-velocity round, like a .223. Hollowpoint pistol rounds won't do it. This just shows a real lack of knowledge on the officer's part.

Speaking of which, does anyone know exactly why NJ bans hollowpoint ammo? Personally, if I had to take a bullet, I'd want it to be a hollowpoint. I'd stand a much higher chance of survival.

jimpeel
May 31, 2004, 04:56 AM
What about tubular rounds, sometimes referred to as "cookie cutter" rounds? I had some of those a few years back and they were a tubular bullet, dull/sharp on the leading edge. They were propelled by a nylon insert packed behind them. The guy who sold them to me said that they open a wound channel that is irrepairable but I doubt it.

There are those who say that they will penetrate a vest and that the PD uses them against vested suspects.

Any truth?

Hal
May 31, 2004, 05:00 AM
The same people that glean firearms knowledge and police procedure from shows like COPS, also glean legal knowledge and court procedures from shows like Judge Judy. They also gain insight into personal relationships via viewing Jerry Springer or Will and Grace.

the PD uses them against vested suspects.
jimpeel,
I'd be real suspicious of that. Why use something weird when you have a .223 at your disposal?

jimpeel
May 31, 2004, 05:10 AM
Hm, did some research and found THIS (http://www.logicsouth.com/~lcoble/dir5/ultramag.txt) which states that it is true that the thing will penetrate some vests. They are made as the PMC ULTRAMAG and are only made in .38 Special (what I had) and .44 Special. They have been banned in CA due to their vest penetration characteristics. CA is where I bought them.

They are also listed HERE (http://www.impactsites2000.com/site3/news/news59.htm) as armor piercing.

They are also obsolete.

There is a test firing report at http://www.ammolab.com/38spcl_-1.htm on these as well as other rounds.

Blue Line
May 31, 2004, 08:57 AM
Another thing to consider is the rating of the vest. There's IIA, III and IIIA with some more tactical and Jail vests thrown in. A vest should a least be rated to stop your carry weapons round because some are shot with thier own weapon in a take away situation. There are ballistic plate inserts for the front carrier for heavier weapons and larger higher rated ballistic types to stop larger or higher velocity rounds. The larger/higher rated stuff makes you feel and look like the michelen man and is not practical for everyday use. A vest won't make you superman.

boofus
May 31, 2004, 11:01 AM
Hollowpoint .223 or 7.62x39 will go through a level II or IIIA vest easily. So will the hollowpoint rounds from the Fiveseven or P90. Level III or IV vests will stop them all cold, so basing 'cop killer' status on whether they will penetrate a vaguely worded 'vest' without specifying what NIJ threat level is misleading.

Pretty much anything will penetrate a PASGT flak vest. So your .22s are COPKILLERS now!

El Tejon
May 31, 2004, 11:16 AM
Just because you have a blue, brown, green or that mustard yellow, like y'all down yonder, polyester uniform does not mean you automatically know anything about firearms. As a general rule, cops cannot be expected to have the knowledge of the average THR member. Many reasons for this--it was New York, police training does not have time and money, he was tired and wanted to make a point about how dangerous it was in tH3 str337z, inter alia.

The cops that possess a heightened knowledge regarding firearms are likely to have that knowledge coming in. In many of the larger departments on the East and West Coast, these people are screened out as "Rambos" or "cowboys." Remember, the sheep cannot tell the difference between the sheep dogs and the wolves. The cops that have superior firearms knowledge will likely gravitate toward instruction or the SRT and be less likely to be on the beat, especially in larger jurisdictions.

To many LEOs, firearms are just gear for the job and fighting an unintentional by-product. When I was in LE I paid my own way for all my training in firearms and H2H. My co-workers thought I was daft but they remained as ignorant as your cop on television.

nipprdog
May 31, 2004, 01:50 PM
A lot of people here in Michigan switch from HP to FMJ during the winter because the HP's might not penetrate all the down jackets worn here, but this cop thinks they're designed to penetrate vests.
down filling won't expand a hollowpoint. fluids do. most likely, the hollowpoint will clog up with the filling and it will act like a FMJ.

check out the pics in this article. the article stated that of the bullets that expanded, they didn't do so until reaching the water jugs.



http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=119005&highlight=clothing

Standing Wolf
May 31, 2004, 03:32 PM
Do you think some of these people just don't know much about ammunition, or are they just trying to make anti gun statements whenever possible?

Yes.

Ala Dan
May 31, 2004, 07:32 PM
Sounds like some believer's graduated from The
David Keen* Institute Of Technology.

*FootNote: the NASA guru who developed ""Black
Rhino" and Rhino ammunition. It was touted as
"Cop Killer" ammunition, before it was banned.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

Gordon Fink
June 1, 2004, 01:57 AM
The average cop is at least as stupid as the average non-cop, which means he is pretty damn stupid.

~G. Fink

gryphon
June 1, 2004, 12:34 PM
Back in the good 'ole days when a department switched over to another firearm (revolver to semi's in particular) their old side arms would be sold to the public by distributers retailors etc. It's pretty easy to accept that one or more found their way into a pawn shop in NY or thereabouts

They still sell ex-police firearms here in Ohio. There are at least 3 different stores in the central Ohio area that I can think of that sell them.

Andrew Rothman
June 1, 2004, 02:19 PM
Personally, if I had to take a bullet, I'd want it to be a hollowpoint. I'd stand a much higher chance of survival.

HP's have better stopping power. They do more internal damage. You are MORE likely to die from HP.

Unless you're wearing a flak jacket or something that could stop HP.

rayra
June 1, 2004, 05:02 PM
How did a P.D. gun get into the hands of a kid on a bike?
(shrug) I'm sitting here in L.A. with one of a pair of .357 revolvers my father and I purchased at a gun store in San Diego 12-13yrs ago which are engraved with NYSP - New York State Police.
Surplused weapons, don't mean a thing.

Ben Shepherd
June 1, 2004, 08:04 PM
I picked up a stainless security six with NIS (Naval Intellegence Service) stamped on it a while back.

Someone gave it a good front sight and a nice trigger job, I paid $200.

Glad they still sell turn-ins around here.:D

gunsmith
June 1, 2004, 08:54 PM
I saw that too,and it said Oakland PD.
Who knows how the 17yrold idiot got the gun. Probably as hot as the girls bike he was riding (what an idiot).

I was angered by that stupid comment about ammo as well but as far as his choice of plainclothes wear,well I guess he knows about as much about fashion as he does ammo:p

cracked butt
June 1, 2004, 09:35 PM
I haven't seen that episode, but I saw some horrendous gun handling in another- a cop (LA I think) pulls over a guy and finds what looks like a loaded savage semiauto .22 in the backseat. While the cop is lecturing about how he just took an illegal deadly semiauto assault rifle off the street, he proceeds to unload it by holding it up at a 30 degree angle, working the bolt back and forth while fumbling around catching the .22 rounds as they eject. I feel so much safer now.:rolleyes: :cuss: :banghead:

7677
June 1, 2004, 10:30 PM
ExtremeDooty,
This is the number one reason why I do not watch cops. If I didn't personally know some of the officers that have been on cops I would swear that it is filmed along with the Jerry Springer show!

ExtremeDooty
June 2, 2004, 12:10 AM
I don't take COPS seriously unless they make blatant anti gun statements. Most of my extended family are less conservative than I am, and I can just hear them repeating some of this stuff as gospel.

I also think the camera changes a lot of what goes on. You can tell some of the Leo's have just re-read the Academy handbook when they found out the camera would be riding with them.

The reason I like COPS is that it's just fun watching somebody else get into trouble and then trying to lie their way out of it. Some of the things they say is just hilarious.

Archangel
June 2, 2004, 01:00 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Personally, if I had to take a bullet, I'd want it to be a hollowpoint. I'd stand a much higher chance of survival.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



HP's have better stopping power. They do more internal damage. You are MORE likely to die from HP.

In a way, you're both right.

A HP does have more "stopping power," and as a result, a person is more likely to be stopped with fewer shots than had they been shot with FMJ's. It's the number of shots, not the actual bullet design / performance, that makes you more likely to survive if you are shot with hollow points.

fish2xs
June 2, 2004, 01:48 PM
I can live with the gun-fumbling and sporadic anti comments, but where can you get some of the lines that the suspects come up with? They are classic.

Last week (I think) there was a group of 'inner city' people involved in a large scuffle. Apparently person 1 hit his girlfriend. The girlfriends brother then punched person 1 right in front of a cop. As the show 'fades to black' at the end of the half hour, the brother's voice is heard:

"ain't nobody gonna hit my sister...." (long pause) "unless he's married to her."

truely classic...

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