Another gun writer strikes out...


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JohnKSa
May 31, 2004, 01:40 AM
Shooting Times

"Precision Reloading" by Rick Jamison

They (45/70 and 450 Marlin) are two distinctly different cartridges--the cases are designed differently and they have far different performance levels.
Apparently Garrett Ammunition, Hunting Shack Ammunition, and PMC disagree with Mr. Jamison. They all sell 45/70 ammo that meets or exceeds the performance level of the .450 Marlin.

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Tamara
May 31, 2004, 02:20 AM
They all sell 45/70 ammo that meets or exceeds the performance level of the .450 Marlin.

Well, at least currently available factory .450 Marlin...

Plus, the GarrettHuntingPMC stuff is (or should be) plastered with warnings telling Bubba not to stuff one of these rounds in Great Grandpaw's flop-top.

You can get custom .45 Colt loads that'll do most of what .454 Casull factory ammo will do, too. (Don't stuff it in granpaw's Peacemaker, though; it's hard on his pacemaker. :eek: )

Wonder what a maxed-out Buffalo Bore .450 Marlin would look like? :uhoh:

JohnKSa
May 31, 2004, 03:54 AM
Wonder what a maxed-out Buffalo Bore .450 Marlin would look like? Given that the case capacity of the .450 Marlin is a few grains less than that of the .45/70, and it's primarily chambered in actions which are also chambered for the .45/70, I'd say it's already "maxed-out". What it boils down to is anything the .450 Marlin can do, the 45/70 can do--and with lower pressure...

The 45/70 ammo in question (Garrett, HSM, PMC) is marked +P and the boxes that I've seen clearly explain which rifles are suitable for use with the ammunition.

The .45LC/.454 comparison is valid, however, the issue isn't the CARTRIDGE in either case. Unfortunately Mr. Jamison didn't caution his readers to avoid using "maxed-out" 45/70 in antique guns, he claimed that the CARTRIDGES have "far different performance levels".

mete
May 31, 2004, 09:49 AM
Sadly there are many who's only question in life is "how hot can I load it" The 45-70 functions differently than say a 270 and therefore doesn't have to be made into a magnum, it works very well at low velocity because of the big hole. It starts out making a 45 cal hole which is about what you get with an expanded 270. If you are hunting deer the 300 gr factory works fine. If you're going to hunt elk or moose then the PMC is a good choice.As for charging elephants use a 458mag.

JohnKSa
May 31, 2004, 03:00 PM
mete,

Actually, I agree completely. The old Marlin discussion board was something of a hoot. The reloaders were split between one group who trying to turn their lever rifle into a .458 Win Mag and the other bunch who kept saying that they had never had performance problems with the "antique" pressure loadings.

When the old Remington load (1250fps & 405 grains of JSP) has the penetration and performance to kill a couple of wild hogs with a single shot, it's hard to understand just what you get out of another 700fps--besides a really sore shoulder...

I guess the .450 Marlin is something of a pet peeve of mine. The ONLY advantage it has over the 45/70 is that the case is a bit stronger. That's not much of an advantage since neither of them (even the +P 45/70) is really pushing the pressure limits of what the CASE will handle. It doesn't fit into a shorter action, it doesn't offer increased performance (over what the 45/70 is capable of), it doesn't operate at lower pressure, it's not more accurate, and with the advent of the PMC +P 45/70 load, it's not even cheaper anymore.

Plain and simple, the .450 Marlin is a cartridge designed by lawyers. Even that's not such a big deal--until you get some yahoo telling folks that it's in a "far different performance" class than the 45/70.

J Miller
May 31, 2004, 05:47 PM
JohnKSa,

So to paraphrase what you said, the 450 Marlin falls into the catagory of "an answer to a question not asked", ~or~ "a solution to a non-existant problem".

Yep, just like a lot of things in the shooting world now adays.

I wonder how my rifles chambered for the 450 Marlin will be rebarreled and or rechambered to the 45-70 when brass is no longer available?


Joe

JohnKSa
May 31, 2004, 06:57 PM
I wonder how my rifles chambered for the 450 Marlin will be rebarreled and or rechambered to the 45-70 when brass is no longer available?
Well, first of all, I doubt you're going to have to worry about that for a LONG time to come. It's probably just as reasonable to assume that the 45-70 might be the one that goes by the wayside. Well, at least it was before Cowboy Action revitalized it along with many of the other old, "obsolete" cartridges.

Even if it does "drop off the charts", the odds are that brass will be available for a good bit after that.

THEN, since low pressure straight wall cases don't wear out so fast, I suppose it's going to be even longer before reloaders will wear out their supply.

I suspect you won't live long enough to have to worry about it--I don't think I will...

And, if you do, I'm about 90% sure it's just a simple barrel change.

John

Vern Humphrey
May 31, 2004, 08:28 PM
The .450 Marlin is essentially a "Lawyer's Cartridge." It's a hot-loaded .45-70 that can't fit into an antique .45-70 chamber.

I suspect that offering .45-70s loaded to the gills was keeping some ammo company execs awake at night, wondering IF someone would be stupid enough to slip one of their pills into an old Trapdoor.

JohnKSa
May 31, 2004, 08:48 PM
Vern,

Could be, but ones that were, still are, and of the ones that weren't, some are now. It makes sense, you just have to read it a few times. ;)

Seriously, as far as I know, the two main companies involved in the .450 Marlin product offering have never sold any +P 45-70 ammo.

Here's another "funny" I've heard a lot about this .450 Marlin. The .450 Marlin is great for folks that don't handload, the .45/70 is better if you do. This is exactly backward from the truth. If you don't handload and you choose the .450 Marlin, you are limited to a single loading from a single ammunition company. If you don't handload and you choose the .45/70, you can pick from ammo loaded light enough to work safely in a black-powder antique to ammo that's hotter than the single .450 Marlin loading.

Clearly, the .45/70 is a great cartridge for folks who DON'T handload. You can buy loaded ammo in virtually any power level you can imagine. The .450 Marlin only offers a single load--if you want anything else, it's strictly a handloading proposition.

45crittergitter
June 1, 2004, 04:22 PM
Ah, but a .45-70 that is loaded beyond SAAMI spec. technically is no longer a .45-70, but is something else - a .45-70 +P, perhaps. Therefore, the original statement is correct - the .450 (and .45-70 +P) have different performance levels than an actual .45-70.

JohnKSa
June 1, 2004, 10:30 PM
I guess it's all in your perspective...

45crittergitter
June 2, 2004, 10:55 AM
Well, I suppose one could also say that the .357 Magnum doesn't really outperform the .38 Special, assuming you hot load the .38.....

HankB
June 2, 2004, 12:28 PM
The .450 Marlin is essentially a "Lawyer's Cartridge." It's a hot-loaded .45-70 that can't fit into an antique .45-70 chamber. That was my thinking the first time I read about this cartridge. Plus, that it was kind of an "oddball' proprietary loading that wouldn't really catch on, sort of like the 5mm Remington Rimfire and the .480 Ruger.Well, I suppose one could also say that the .357 Magnum doesn't really outperform the .38 Special, assuming you hot load the .38..... You wouldn't be TOO wrong to say that. The .357 case was lengthened not so much to hold more powder, (which it does!) but to keep the hotter loads from being used in .38 Special revolvers which wouldn't stand up to the higher pressures.

45crittergitter
June 2, 2004, 12:49 PM
You wouldn't be TOO wrong to say that. The .357 case was lengthened not so much to hold more powder, (which it does!) but to keep the hotter loads from being used in .38 Special revolvers which wouldn't stand up to the higher pressures.

uhm, yeah, kinda like that wide belt on the .450?

:rolleyes:

Thumper
June 2, 2004, 06:48 PM
Sadly there are many who's only question in life is "how hot can I load it"

Sadly? I load a heckuva lot of Tam's .45 Colt pacemaker poppers for my Blackhawk and I absolutely love em. Seems these south Texas hogs can't tell the difference between .45 Colt and .454 Casull anymore. God bless John Linebaugh.

Red lined loads have a place.

bogie
June 2, 2004, 06:53 PM
Personally, I'd prefer to avoid having a hand grenade go off 6" from my face...

Gatofeo
June 2, 2004, 07:06 PM
I can't wait for that NEW .30-caliber, lever-action round I keep hearing about.
They take a .38-55 case, neck it down to .30-caliber, top it off with a 150-grain, flatpoint bullet and VOILA'! --- an absolutely smashing cartridge for deer-sized animals.
Heck, I've even heard they're going to come out with a second loading with a 170-grain loading, for big deer. Some guys said they'll try it on elk, at close range too!
Also in the works is the .38-55 case necked down to .32-caliber, topped with a 170-grain bullet! Wow! I'm salivating already, just thinking of the sexy, color photos of these two new rounds in the gun magazines!
I'll keep ya posted! :D

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