RAMI or 225 refurb


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RicVa
May 31, 2004, 05:56 PM
I'm trying to narrow down the new carry weapon choices. Right now, I'm looking at the CZ RAMI in 9mm or a Sig refurbished P225.

Anybody own up a Sig refurbished weapon? I think it's a relatively new thing for Sig, right? Local shop wants $535 for the refurbished 225. They get quite a few of them from what the guy was telling me. Pros for the 225 for me are the fit in the hand and the reliability of the Sig name.

Also considering the RAMI in 9mm. This gun fits my hand relatively well - I can get my pinky finger on the bottom of the mag base plate. I'm thinking it would be significantly easier to conceal IWB because of it's shorter grip length. It has the safety, but I probably won't carry C&L, so the safety doesn't figure into the decision.

I know, it's whatever you shoot best. Unfortunately, I won't be able to shoot either before buying.

So any opinions on or between these two pistols? And, is $535 a good deal for a Sig refurbished 225?

Thanks for any and all opinions.

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Craig M. Arnold
May 31, 2004, 06:23 PM
I can't comment on the SIG 225 because I don't have one or have I ever shot one. I do have two 9MM RAMIs though. My son also has one. We think that at short ranges, 12 to 15 yards, they are as accurate as many compact and full size pistols. In 9MM the recoil is very reasonable. Carrying the RAMI concealed in an IBW holster is very easy. My daily carry gun right now is a CZ PCR. However, as soon as I get about 250 more rounds through one of the RAMIs, it will repalce the PCR. I believe that overall for a CCW the CZ RAMI is a top choice.

Here is a picture of my two RAMIs with Hakan grips on them.


http://www.imageseek.com/hakan/albums/customers/Craig_sCocobolo_Kingwoodgrips5.jpg

bradvanhorn
May 31, 2004, 07:06 PM
I bought a "refurbished" P225 a few months ago when I saw one on the shelf at the gun store, and upon examination it appeared to be nearly brand new! Other than a few very light wear marks here and there, the gun was perfect - including bright night sights. I asked both Sig and a trusted 'smith about the gun, because I feared it had been subjected to a "major" overhaul. I was told (by both respondents) that Sig basically inspects the gun, replaces any minor parts that might be overly worn, and that's it - no refinishing or replacement of large/major parts. So, I got what was in fact an almost new gun.

Well, this weekend I traded away "my" P225. It was sort of a tough decision, because I bought my wife a P225 12 years ago, and of the original guns I've owned it's the only gun that hasn't been sold, and I wanted one of my own to match. However, I've recently discovered CZs, and they are without a doubt the most natural pointing, easy to shoot handguns I've ever fired. So, I traded "my" P225 for a CZ 75 B, although I almost got a CZ 75 D PCR (lightweight compact).

In hindsight I think I should have got the CZ 75 D PCR. I already have a CZ 75 SA, which is awesome, so the lightweight compact CZ would have been a nice addition. Well, I guess it'll just have to be the next on my list for acquisition.

o.k., so back to your original question. The P225 is an excellent weapon - typical Sig - think of any nice comment and it applies (accurate, reliable, comfortable, etc.) I've no personal experience shooting the CZ RAMI, but just holding one I found the grip felt uncomfortable. If I were buying today (with your money;)), of the two choices provided - CZ RAMI vs P225 - I would probably take the P225. However, I would suggest the CZ 75 D PCR as an alternative, since I think the size and shape is more similar to the P225, and the grip is much more comfortable (for me at least) than the CZ RAMI.

Also, I think $535 for the P225 is a little high. I've seen a few of the refurbished P225s lately, and all were selling for $499 or less.

It looks like Craig could better comment on the RAMI vs PCR (and already has to a certain degree), but I think if it were up to me, I'd go with the CZ 75 D PCR.

Good Luck!

PCRit
May 31, 2004, 08:22 PM
I don't think I've ever held a P225, let alone fired one, but if the grip on the P225 "fits" you best, go for it. I really like the PCR as well, but the RAMI is easier to conceal, and the grip angle feels the same as the PCR. I'm comfortable shooting the Glock subcompacts, so tucking the pinky under the mag on the RAMI just feels natural too me.

I think you'll like whichever one you get, as long as it feels comfortable in your hands and points well...that's 90% of what it takes to shoot well with either one.

Marko Kloos
May 31, 2004, 08:32 PM
We ordered a P225 "Grade B" factory refurb for a customer a week ago. Grade A was supposed to be NIB, Grade B was "some holster wear".

The gun arrived, and looked brand new, save for a few minor wear marks on the barrel hood. The customer was tickled pink.

The P225 is a serious contender for the Top Three best single-stack 9mm handguns of all time, and it's one of the very best CCW guns available, period. It's light, has a relatively slim grip, great ergonomics, and outstanding reliability.

cratz2
May 31, 2004, 08:35 PM
Well, I'm still in the honeymoon stages of my relationship with my PCR... I love it to pieces and it has been perfect in every way thus far... Outstanding ergonomics, very respectable trigger, easy to carry. Plus, when you count selling a couple guns for a profit and selling/trading a couple knives I got for basically nothing, I think my (used) PCR only cost me about $30. :p

Between the RAMI and the PCR, the PCR makes more sense to me for IWB carry. I'd rather have the additional rounds, the larger grip, less recoil, faster recovery time, longer sight radius, etc... If I was set on a more deep concealment mode of carry, I could see the positives of the RAMI, but for IWB, for me, I'll take the PCR.

I bought a trade in 226 a while back, admittedly a different beast than the 225 and I also had a 229 in 40 that I bought used... both were very decent guns, if you like SIGs. They were both 100% reliable and they were generally as accurate as I expect to be with a handgun, and they both even had decent triggers, but they just don't fit my hand nearly as well as the CZ.

I think I paid $375 for the (non refurbed) police trade in 226. And less than that for my used 229. I think $535 is a bit steep, but then, if the shop sells them all the time at this price, they may not be likely to drop to a lower price to make the sale.

They are really radically guns... one is basically a full size gun and the other is on the extremely small category. What I see is that you might be more likely to have the CZ with you... all the time. And that is a good thing. But for what the guns are, I think both are fine choices.

Lobotomy Boy
May 31, 2004, 11:09 PM
I'd go with the Rami. I've run about 400 rounds through my 75B this weekend and have been extremely impressed with the gun. The accuracy is amazing, and the quality is top notch. At the same time I ran about 200 rounds through a Sig 226, which was also a very nice gun. The slide release was much easier to use than the slide release on the CZ, but the CZ trigger was much more crisp (the Sig was a well-worn range whore), and the CZ felt a lot more balanced and natural to shoot. Both were dead-nuts accurate at 10 yards, but at 12-15 yards the CZ was much more consistant with the same ammo.

Leadbutt
June 1, 2004, 01:14 AM
I would go with either,If you like the SIG I would go with the 239, its a little larger then the CZ, but just a tad smaller then the 225, and for the price he's quoting you,on the 225 you should be able to pick up one for about the same price

CZF
June 1, 2004, 03:24 AM
You can get a new RAMI for the price of the used SIG. Both are good guns, with edge to the SIG if you like a decocker for hammer down carry.

Unlike a Glock 26, my RAMI fits me well and doesn't want to fly outta
my hands with +P+ ammo. The RAMI feels much more like a chopped
1911 (to me) than a CZ75.

The PCR is another option. Like the SIG, it is a police gun. I like the
RAMI over my P-01 for summer carry. Buy the SIG, I'm sure you will
eventually find a CZ that you like.


http://www.hunt101.com/img/167143.jpg

RicVa
June 1, 2004, 09:05 AM
Thanks for all of the input. My latest line of thought is that if I like the handling of both pistols, then why not go with the smaller one - the RAMI.

But something I was thinking recently, and as CZF mentioned, I'm not excited about having to manually drop the hammer on the RAMI all the time. I am not currently comfortable carrying C&L either. I know the hammer can be safely dropped if you are careful, but a decocker sure would be nice.

CZF
June 1, 2004, 10:10 AM
The decocker models are an excellent choice for persons that are
uncomfortable with C&L or lowering the hammer on a live round.

I'm far more afraid of an AD by lowering the hammer, than I am of
the safety being knocked off and the trigger being pulled while the
gun is holstered.

My P-01 offers a decocker that puts the pistol at half cock for an
enhanced trigger pull. Thumbsnap holsters are often difficult
with this half-cock, but most carry open top IWB (HBE) or such.

Good luck with your CZ purchase.


http://www.hunt101.com/img/167391.jpg

Craig M. Arnold
June 1, 2004, 12:52 PM
I think that if a person is looking for a pistol to only carry concealed, the CZ RAMI is a top choice. However, if a person is looking for a pistol that will do a lot of things very well (home defense, range gun, etc.) as well as concealed carry, then the PCR is hard to beat. It feels better in my hand than any gun I have ever handled. With a full capacity magazine (14 rounds) plus one in the tube, I never feel undergunned. Here is a picture of what I currently carry daily.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/167482.jpg

XLMiguel
June 1, 2004, 05:05 PM
Hmmmm, tough choice, no bad choice. $535 seems a bit high for a refurb, you can find a NIB for not much more if yuo look around (though shipping, Xfer fees may kill the deal). I have four SIGs (225, 226, 228, 239) and a PCR, all 9mm. I love my SIGs, but the PCR is a wonderful pistol too, fully comparable to the 225/228 or the SIG quality in general. It feels every bit as good in hand as the 225.

I don't have any hands-on shooting experience with the RAMI yet, but IMO, the 239 and RAMI are a closer match for comparison, with a slight edge to the CZ based on overal size, capacity and cost, but go with which feels best/shoots best for you. Enjoy!

Berg01
June 1, 2004, 05:18 PM
I like Sigs a lot (I own a P228, my favorite handgun) but $535.00 is too high for a refurb (what was refurbed?); based on going prices I've seen, it seems to me that you could get a NIB or LNIB example for at or near that price.

I also like CZs (I own a .40 S&W 75B), but the grip on the RAMI is too small for me; I'd consider the P-01 as an alternate.

Between a NIB or LNIB P225, or a P-01, you have two of the very best 9mm carry guns to pick from (not a bad choice to be made here, but I'd probably opt for the NIB or LNIB P225 myself).

drannor
June 1, 2004, 05:37 PM
That's a hard choice.... I own a couple of CZs (97 & 75BD) and several classic SIGs (225,226,220). I've handled the RAMI and the P-01, but haven't shot them. I love my CZ-75, very smooth 9mm that is incredibly accurate for me.

That said... I carry the P225 occasionally, and would prefer it over a CZ. The sights on CZs have never done anything for me, I really prefer the bar-dot on the SIG, or better yet the available Meprolight sites I have on mine. The P225 just "points" well, I've sold two friends on them as a carry piece.

$535 is high, I got my P225 NIB from CDNN at $500 + transfer fee. Made in 2001, my friends are proofed 2003.

Lobotomy Boy
June 1, 2004, 11:15 PM
The owner's manual for my 75B says that the C&L position is for short-term use only. One thing to consider is that the C&L position on a 1911 is backed up by the grip safety, which is not on the CZ. I've practiced using setting the hammer half cocked quite a bit, but I'll always make certain that I am pointing the gun in a safe direction when I place the hammer at the half-cocked position. I always make certain that a gun is pointed in a safe direction even if I'm using a decock lever.

I agree that a decocker version is the way to go for CCW.

RicVa
June 3, 2004, 12:27 AM
After some more thinking about this, I just don't think I will be comfortable without a decocking lever. I'm not really comfortable carrying C&L, so lowering the hammer on the RAMI all the time would practically be asking for something bad to happen.

I just liked the size, capacity, and price of the RAMI a lot...oh well.

I guess I'll try another shop and get another feel for the 225 and the 239...maybe even a 228.

pistolwhipped
June 3, 2004, 07:42 AM
As Craig said above , the PCR fits my hand better than any weapon I have ever owned. Comfortable,concealable and accurate. I have been concidering a RAMI . Pinkie dangling is not my favorite shooting grip , but I can shoot it . Pocket carry is a PM9 so I know I can.

The Reverend
June 3, 2004, 01:44 PM
Not to many 225 shooters have replied to this thread so I will...

I own a SIG P225 and it serves both my wife and I as a primary defensive arm around the house as well as CCW. I have had many 9mm pistols, and plan to own a few more, but the the SIGP225 is arguably one of the finest 9mm pistols ever made. It is extremely accurate (from the box), reliable to a fault (never had a failure in 7,000+ rounds), and is small enough to conceal well.

No, the 225 is not the smallest 9mm out there, if you want concealment go Kahr, but smaller guns can be tougher to shoot well. Most of us are pretty sensitive to concealment issues, but the reality is we can conceal probably bigger guns than we think.

If you are looking for perfection from the box the 225 or any other SIG for that matter is tough to beat. I agree that anything over $500 is high but that's why God created the wonderful process of bargining (sp?). Something closer to $450 to $500 would be a a bot more reasonable, but if extra mags are included, you might be getting a deal. Keep in mind that SIG is no longer regularly producing the 225 so a LNIB pr NIB is going to get harder to find as time goes on.

Bottom Line: SIG 225

God Bless

dairycreek
June 3, 2004, 06:07 PM
Dear RicVa:)

Tried both but bought the RAMI hands down. It has turned out to be a terrific little gun and has fast become my EDC gun. I too am really uncomfortable with carrying C&L which is why I got the RAMI. The decocker is IMHO the way to go. Good shooting;)

RicVa
June 3, 2004, 10:28 PM
dairycreek -

You said, "I too am really uncomfortable with carrying C&L which is why I got the RAMI. The decocker is IMHO the way to go."

I'm a little confused. Are you saying your RAMI has a decocker?

Catbird
June 13, 2004, 12:16 PM
The RAMI (I have one) does NOT have a decocker; OTOH, my P-01 DOES have a decocker.

wally
June 13, 2004, 01:08 PM
If the first shot has gotta count, IMHO you need to get comfortable with Cocked'n'Locked carry! Carry an empty gun c'n'l until you are no longer worried about it.

I'd never give up c'n'l to get a decocker on a carry gun. YMMV.


If you really like DA/SA operation, there is no need to fear manually lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber on a gun like the RAMI with a firing pin block if you do it right:

(1) Lay your off hand thumb between the hammer and the slide and press it down a bit with most of the force on the hammer.

(2) Squeeze the trigger so the hammer falls and "pinches" your thumb.

(3) Release the trigger to re-engage the piring pin block.

(4) Slowly move your thumb up out from between the slide and hammer until the hammer stops at half cock.

The trick is the initial pressure on the hammer from your thumb where the "pre-load" takes up most of the spring force so the hammer doesn't slam your thumb. Do it a few times on an empty gun first to get the hang of it. Its really not difficult.


I think the DA/SA mode of operation is the worst option. C'n'l gives the best trigger, DAO is at least consistent for all shots, there are some I can hit well with, but C'n'L is my first choice whenever possible.

At arms length I don't think it'll matter, but if one of the local "bump and rob" gangs picks my car, I'll need that first shot to be accurate at 1-2 car lengths!

--wally.

RicVa
June 13, 2004, 01:41 PM
Thanks everybody for your input. I have decided to go with the RAMI. I really like the feel of it, and the size is definitely an advantage. Plus, it holds a good amount of rounds for such a small package. I am going to pick one up this week if the local dealer I use has one in stock.

Thanks again everybody for your input and opinions.

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