[Ant Mod]

I know nothing about hunting. I am just preparing for a SHTF scenario. I already have a S&W 681 so figured a good lever gun in .357 would be good. I just need to know if .357 magnum will bring down say a deer. If not I will have to upgrade to.44 magnum.

Do you think most stores stock .44 magnum? In case I am in jerkwater USA and need to get more ammunition.

[jem375]

although a 44 mag would be better, the 357 mag would be sufficient for deer size animals.......plenty of ammo available for both calibers..

[Preacherman]

When S&W introduced the .357 Magnum in 1935, Major Wesson publicized it by taking all of the North American big game with it, including grizzly and Polar bear, IIRC. That's not to say it would STOP a dangerous animal, but with the right bullet, at the right velocity, in the right place, it will certainly kill them.

However, I'd much prefer something bigger for the things that bite back... :uhoh:

[Mr. Mysterious]

but with the right bullet, at the right velocity, in the right place, it will certainly kill them.

Boy, ain't that the truth, holds true with so many bullet related arguments.

[Jim March]

In a levergun with a 16" barrel, the VERY BEST 357Magnum hunting loads exceed 30-30 performance, at least out to 100 yards or less.

The first 357Mag gun was the big N-Frame S&W, and with a lot of metal in a cylinder that was originally meant for 44s/45s, it could take a lot of power. The original load for that 1937-era critter involved a 158grain lead slug at 1,500+ feet per second from a 6" tube.

S&W and others later made smaller 357s which were uncontrollable with those monsters, esp. with the grips of the day. The 1950s saw widespread use of K-Frames originally meant for 38Spl, beefed up to 357 specs...and a trend towards wimping the loads out.

There are a SMALL number of ammo houses starting to reverse the trend and get the caliber back to it's former glory but with modern projectiles.

Bufallo Bore is so far DEEP in the lead:

http://www.gunblast.com/MilesFortis-AKChurch_BuffaloBore.htm

http://www.buffalobore.com

In other words, as a "generality" 357 isn't a good hunting load.

But there's some spectacular exceptions to the rule...

[mete]

The 44mag is about twice as effective as the 357mag in actual use. If you know nothing about hunting the important thing is to practice , practice , practice.

[ChristopherG]

The 44mag is about twice as effective as the 357mag in actual use.

:confused:

How would you quantify this? I think it's wrong, but that's not really my point here. I mean, dead is dead, and a well placed 357 will kill a deer dead; will a 44 kill it twice as dead? Or is it so mighty it renders shot placement unimportant? Is there some 'energy' calculation you're thinking of, or what?

The 357 in a lever gun is a great round. There are some excellent bullets, both jacketed (Gold Dot 170 JSP; Hornady 158 XTPFP or 180 XTPHP) and cast, particularly suited to the higher velocities you can get; it's cheaper and easier to shoot than a 44; and it's more than up to the use Ant Mod asks about here. IMHO.

[Werewolf]

The original load for that 1937-era critter involved a 158grain lead slug at 1,500+ feet per second from a 6" tube.

Hmmmm....
Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't pushing a lead bullet out of a 6" barrel at the 1500+ velocity levels create a fairly substantial leading problem?

That's a pretty hot load. Did they use a tin-lead-antimony mix that made an especially hard bullet - like up in the 24+ BHN range maybe?

[HankB]

Man has been hunting big game with bows and arrows for thousands of years. If what is basically a pointy stick will bring down big game, a well-placed bullet from an appropriate .357 Magnum load will, too.

FIrst-hand experience tells me a .357 revolver is just fine for deer-sized game. I suppose if I had to, I could use it on elk-sized game, but I'd have to be VERY careful with shot placement. Though it HAS been done by others, I wouldn't personally care to use a .357 on anything larger. Or meaner.

The .44 Magnum is significantly ahead of the .357 in terms of game-taking ability, with its bigger bullets at equal or higher velocity.

[Ben Shepherd]

A 180 XTP doing 1800+ would be fine on deer size game. This is easy to do out of a 16-18" rifle.

I can run 158 XTP's over 2000 fairly easily, this will work well also.

Another good option is a 180 HCSWC running along at full steam.

Is it a "prefered" round? No.

Is it adequate with a correct load? Absolutely!

[dakotasin]

Man has been hunting big game with bows and arrows for thousands of years. If what is basically a pointy stick will bring down big game...



that is kind of misleading, though i agree w/ the point. broadheads (pointy sticks) kill differently than a bullet does. arrows kill through hemmorrhaging, and bullets kill thru shock. the end result is the same: massive disruption of vital tissue = dead, but the way the two accomplish the same goal is differently...

anyway, back to the subject at hand... a 357 is deer capable. i've seen it done, and i've done it, but it wouldn't be my first choice; but it would work. i equate the 357 on deer as about like a 223 on deer. both will work, but neither is the best choice.

[sumpnz]

Unfortunatly every gun rag out there seems to think you need a thumpinblitzensuperultrashortmagnumcannon too kill a cottentail, never mind a deer or elk.

As HankB said, we've been killing deer with pointy sticks for thousands of years. A well placed .357 shot with a bullet of appropriate construction at an appropriate range should be perfectly effective at taking down a deer. If going after elk, I'd probably try to get close enough for a CNS shot as it may not be able to reliably penetrate deeply enough for a heart/lung area broadside or frontal shot.

One of these days I have got to get me a .357 lever action carbine. I had a chance to shoot one at a THR get together here in Tucson a while back, and man are they fun. That would also be a good choice for an SHTF gun as it is light, handy, effective and you could carry it with a matching revolver and only worry about carrying one kind of ammo.

[444]

"arrows kill through hemmorrhaging, and bullets kill thru shock."

I beg to differ. Both kill through hemmorage unless you shoot through the medula of the brain in which either kill the same way in that case also.

[HankB]

. . . broadheads (pointy sticks) kill differently than a bullet does. arrows kill through hemmorrhaging, and bullets kill thru shock.. . Well, maybe . . . to a point. (I'll note in passing that our ancestors of 10,000 years ago didn't have modern broadheads or compound bows, but still managed to kill game with pointy sticks . . . sometimes with a sharp rock tied on the end. )

But except for one or two very unusual instances, I've yet to see "shock" kill any animal I've hunted, even when shot with a high powered rifle.

Assuming the brain or spine isn't hit, what happens is the bullet creates both temporary and permanent wound channels, which cause internal bleeding, damage organs, and so forth. The size and shape of these wound channels differ from those of arrows, and the contribution of each (temporary and permanent) is dependent on a myriad of variables, but the bottom line is, it's basically hemorrage that does the job.

[Browns Fan]

quote:
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The 44mag is about twice as effective as the 357mag in actual use.
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Yeah, all ya gotta do is hit the tip of one of the buck's tines with a 44 Mag and he'll do a backflip and be dead before he hits the ground!


:rolleyes:

[Jim March]

Werewolf: yes, the very first loads would lead up barrels like crazy.

Hardcast was thus tried pretty dang quick, as was jacketed...the latter had to be shot at lower velocity to cope with the pressure increase. Neither would expand of course.

It was the ORIGINAL soft-lead plain Keith-shaped slug that gave the 357 the "death hand of God" reputation. With modern powders and JHP designs, we've finally come full circle back to that even with 4" barrels versus the old sixes and eights...see also BuffBore's velocity test data.

Nobody's paying attention yet, but strong 357s like the GP100 and 686 have now jumped up to a whole 'nother performance level, definately past the 40S&W and *maybe* out past the 10mm.

[mete]

ChristoferG, since you and others are surprised by my statement that the 44mag is twice as effective as the 357mag - I certainly never base my comments on a formula or energy figures since 'energy' never killed anything. 'dead is dead' ? well when does it die ? hours and miles away ? My own experiences with handguns showed that caliber certainly does matter and I'll take big bore any day. If you read Keith's "SIXGUNS" you will find comments that even heavy 44 special loads were far more effective than the 357 and he knew that more than 50 years ago. Not from energy figures but actual use as a hunting round.For those who have not read the book Keith was involved in the development of both the 357 and 44mags. Also bullet placement is ALWAYS important !

[ChristopherG]

Okay, Mete, I see; you're making a straight comparison of 44 and 357 in handguns, and since you invoke Saint Elmer, we'll let you off the hook ;)

Honestly, I have Keith's book and love it, and you're certainly right that he was determined to push well beyond the 357; but he also couldn't shoot a quality modern JHP at superspeed from a carbine, which was the weapon Ant Mod asked about. Makes me wonder, honestly; if Elmer had had access to Gold Dots and XTPs and more modern metallurgy and propellants, might Dirty Harry's line have gone a little differently? :eek:

[mohican]

My recommendation will vary depending on which is more important

being a beginning handgun hunter
or having the handgun be used in a SHTF situation

I killed my first deer with a Blackhawk .357 mag, using 158 grain nyclads of all things. It was like an archery shot with a handgun, under 35 yards, through the lungs and heart, and it ran about 50 yards. So yes, a .357 will bring down deer. And in a 6" barreld gun with good grips, even recoil shy people can handle it well. Think Blackhawk, or GP100, or SW686 or similar.
(although many wouldn't want a SA Blackhawk in a SHTF situation) You can find many bullets capable of dropping deer in .357 mag.

The best balance of power vs recoil for a beginning handgun deer hunter is, IMHO, the .41 mag. Where you live may determine if cartridge are handy enough for a SHTF situation. (Although you should have a good stock and reloading capabilities:D) There are a few suitable factory loads available for the .41 mag, but nothing like what you find for a .357 or .44Mag.

Moving on up to the 44 mag. Twice as effective as the .357? Hmmm
I will try shots/placements with the .44 mag that I will pass up if I have a .357 mag. I know, because I have done it with large Ohio bucks, that a 44mag with a 300 grain Hornady XTP, or a 300 grain cast gas check flatnose bullet will have enough umph to break both shoulders at 75 yards. Personally, I would never try that with a .357, even with a heavy for caliber, cast bullet.

[mtnbkr]

Nobody's paying attention yet, but strong 357s like the GP100 and 686 have now jumped up to a whole 'nother performance level

I started "paying attention" several years ago when I got my GP100. While my loads aren't quite as hot (180gr @ 1200fps from 4" vs 1375fps from same) as Buffalo Bore's, mine are cheaper at about $10/box of 50.

I just looked at their stuff. They're using cast bullets, I'm using jacketed. I know when I switched to cast and used the same powder charge, I gained an extra 100fps (actual chrono).

An accidental overcharge once netted me over 1400fps with a jacketed bullet from that same 4" GP100. :what:

Chris

[twoblink]

Caliber Grain Velocity (ft / sec) Energy [Torque] (ft lbs)
.22LR 40 1080 104
38 Special 125 775 167
357 Magnum 125 1450 584
* 9mm Luger 124 1090 327
.40 Smith & Wesson 155 1205 500
* .45 ACP 230 850 369
.357 Sig 125 1350 506
.30 Carbine 110 1990 967
* .223 Rem 55 3240 1282
7.62x51mm NATO (.308Win) 150 2900 2802
.300 WSM 150 3300 3628
20 Gauge (#8) 2-3/4 1210 @ 3ft N/A
12 Gauge (00 Buck) 2-3/4 1325 @ 3ft N/A


Here's a chart that I made on my website.. Take a look at the 357Mag, 125 grainer... It beats the .40S&W as it is, and with something like the Buffalo Bore loads, should beat the 10mm stuff no problem. This is from the Winchester site..

[Ben Shepherd]

Antmod, I overlooked you SHTF preparation earlier.

We've established that 357 is adequate for deer here I think.

So test #2 is in order:

Pick up a 50 round box of standard 158gr 357 loads. Now pick up a 50 round box of 240gr 44 loads. Guess wich one takes less space and weighs less?

[Ant Mod]

Here is an interesting article I found regarding hunting with the .357.

http://www.sixgunner.com/backissues/paco/HUNTINGCALIBERS.htm