Being stalked, Need suggestions.


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ddj8052
June 1, 2004, 10:53 PM
First off, this is not like it sounds. I have a friend who has been kind enough to allow us to set up a private range on his property. He has 240 acres on top of a mountain. The property is over run with Mountain lions and has some bears. Up above where he plowed out the range is a kill spot where the mountain lions have hauled up carcases. The range area is situated in a bowl shaped area.

So on with the story. My friend and I were shooting and as we got done with our string of fire and were reloading we heard some very big stepsd in the brush. Now I have been camping my entire life and I know what the woods sound like and there was deffinatley something out there. So I slammed home a fresh magazine and backed to the center of the clearing and waited. We heard some more steps going across our front then moving away. We waited a bit and heard nothing else and went back to shooting.

So now my question is this. The owner of the property is saying that it was probably a bear. He says that the bears will come to the sounds of shots inorder to see if you have killed anything they can eat. So now I am worried about a angry bear. it was recommended to me to keep a 12gague with slugs handy for protection. Do you all think that my Remington 870 loaded with Winchester Super X rifled hollow point Slugs. Would these be good adainst a bear? Also if it was a Mountain lion would the slugs also be good. Would a .45 acp be efective against a mountain lion. Thanks for any help. I appreciate you all reading all of this.

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Stand_Watie
June 1, 2004, 10:59 PM
Try this question in the hunting forum. There are some guys that really know their bears over there. If you could hear it, I doubt it was a mountain lion.

P.s. "Big steps" to me sounds more like a human or perhaps domesticated cattle rather than even bear.

CrudeGT
June 1, 2004, 11:53 PM
Bear coming towards loud bangs? that doesn't sound too realistic to me. usually wild animals (as well as domesticated) run from loud bangs. As part of the fight or flight thinking order.

Leadbutt
June 2, 2004, 12:55 AM
Actualy, this is a very real problem, first noticed in Alaska, and Canada, the bears learn very quickly that the shot soundmite mean food,,

If you could hear it more than likely a bear,, cats are very quite, but either way, keep the shotgun loaded and close, most of the quides I have talked to suggest a heavy load of buckshot for the first round followed by slugs.

forquidder
June 2, 2004, 01:12 AM
I was practicing my fast shooting with 22 and 9mm semi auto pistol for an hour or more one day in a gravel pit about 200 yards long. I had some 454 casull reloads that I wanted to shoot for velocity and accuracy and while I was walking to the other end of the pit to set up a target (left the gun on the hood of the truck) a "small" (about 250-300 lbs.) grizzly sauntered out of the brush, saw me, and ran down the brushline about 25 yards and out of the pit. I made a b-line to get back to that 454. Unless this bear was completely deaf, he had come to investigate the noise and didn't expect me to be down at his end of the pit when he emerged. It was a fairly young bear and probably hadn't been shot at much if at all. Probably it's first year away from mom and naiive but still big enough to make short work of a human. No way it could have missed all the prior commotion.

Andrew Wyatt
June 2, 2004, 01:18 AM
buckshot is not even remotely effective on bear. (ask H&H hunter).


brenneke slugs at the minimum.

PATH
June 2, 2004, 01:54 AM
Amen.

NIGHTWATCH
June 2, 2004, 02:35 AM
DONT SHOOT! ITS ME! :D


SLUG.

Jim March
June 2, 2004, 04:50 AM
I knew some celery that got stalked...

Treylis
June 2, 2004, 05:38 AM
Hmm, when I saw the thread title, I thought that you were being stalked by a fellow human being. Since it's a bear, I don't have any advice, however. Perhaps you should have said "being hunted" or the like? ;-P

Norton
June 2, 2004, 05:51 AM
Can't comment too much in the ammo side of things since I'm not a hunter, but I bet a 12 bore slug would really ruin an aggressive bear's day.

From a safety standpoint I'd say to not go out to that location without a partner. That way you can take turns shooting with the other acting as a "lookout" in case curious critters come looking for some fast food.

At the risk of thread drift....this is really a good strategy whenever we go out into remote locations for target practice. I've spent some time at a range in the George Washington National Forest and it's around 3 miles from the nearest hard road. It would be very simple for someone to use that range as a supply for some free firearms....at my personal risk. When FIL and I go out there, we take turns shooting and the off line person has holstered firearm and can act as an extra set of eyes.

redneck2
June 2, 2004, 06:30 AM
to their equivalent in rifles

the new high velocity sabots are about 1,900 fps and weigh about 500 grains IIRC. This seems quite adequate. Compare this to my .45-70 that shoots a 405 grain Speer flat point at about 1,750 fps, which would be considered fine.

Federal has some that are hour-glass shaped and supposed to be the highest velocity available. I'd pass on the buckshot. Each pellet is about the same as the old .32 Special load out of a revolver. On the light side for bears.

killermarmot
June 2, 2004, 07:34 AM
how big is this area you're shooting in? Is it possible, practicle, etc. to maybe throw up some cyclone fence on the permiters or atleast around your shooting positions just to give you a little protetion granted it won't stop them by any means if they want in but it will atleast give you a few extra seconds of heads up. setup some of those "alarms" that dope growers use, setup tin cans on wire surrounding the perimiter to alert you. granted you won't hear it over the shooting but it's a cheap way to possibly alert you. maybe next time also check for tracks.

2nd Amendment
June 2, 2004, 11:53 AM
I'd always heard the point of the buckshot was not to injure the bear at all but just to inflict a lot of pain over a large area. Hoped for result is it simply decides this is a bad place to be and goes away. The slugs next in line are for if it doesn't come to that conclusion. I'd guess this might make sense but really depends on whether you care enough about the bear to waste the first rnd time.

Denko
June 2, 2004, 12:32 PM
Slugs would be the proper choice.Spent most of my life in that area,was never bothered by any of the critters.I have been pretty close to black bears,they move very quietly.From the noise you describe,I would guess it was a person or a cow.

TallPine
June 2, 2004, 01:28 PM
Just wear some little bells - that's supposed to keep bears away.

:neener:

Evil_Ed
June 2, 2004, 02:38 PM
Pump Shotgun, first round buckshot all others slug. Place first shot to face with the hopes of blinding the bear so that you have a better chance of getting away after you empty the slugs into the bear (if the bear survives the slugs).

Good luck, angry bears can do a lot of damage.

Zundfolge
June 2, 2004, 03:05 PM
Is something wrong with the forum?

I'm sure I already posted a reply to this thread :confused:



At any rate, I suggested a levergun in .45-70 ... I stand by that suggestion (even if the forum software didn't like it :p )



Did you also post this over on TFL?

ddj8052
June 2, 2004, 05:50 PM
Thanks for all the suggestions guys. I will as a result of this now carry my Remington 870 loaded with Slugs when I go to this spot. I do not have a 10mm (athough that may now be looked into to, anyone recomend one :) ) so my .45acp will have to suffice on my hip for now. For those that asked, I live in California and we have Black bears. The more I talk to people both on the 'net and in person, the more I believe it was a bear. I do not believe it was a 2 legged critter for the simple fact that it crossed in front of us AKA down range from us. A person would have to be pretty stupid to be down range from the shooters. This would also seem to bear out (no pun intended) the theory that the bear was looking for food. So now I would really like some suggestions for loads for my shotty. Again thaks to all for the help.

standingbear
June 2, 2004, 08:58 PM
prolly another hunter...a hungry one.:D

Sunray
June 2, 2004, 10:19 PM
The chances of you hearing either a kitty or a bear are extremely slim. Both can move very fast and in complete silence. So can a moose when it wants to. Go look for tracks.
"...not to injure the bear at all but just to inflict a lot of pain over a large area..." The absolute last thing you want anywhere near people is a wounded bear. You'd also be guilty of a crime. Buckshot is nearly useless for anything but a fire fight in a phone booth. If you're afraid of bears, stay out of the bush or use slugs only.

Zundfolge
June 2, 2004, 11:36 PM
Ah ... and I replied to this one over on GlockTalk ... not here so I'm not losing my mind (or at least this thread is not evidence) :p

The_Antibubba
June 3, 2004, 04:03 AM
If you shoot our poor defenseless Brother Bear or sister Puma, being tracked by a meat-eating predator is the LEAST of your worries!!

Fear not the mountain lion-fear Jenna, the sage-burning, hemp-wearing, Goddess-chanting vegan who will swoop down upon you and peck mercilessly, bringing her coven of sisters and fey brothers and many, many TV crews!!!



:uhoh:

We'll see who is the hunter and who is the hunted THEN!

:D

2nd Amendment
June 3, 2004, 12:08 PM
The absolute last thing you want anywhere near people is a wounded bear. You'd also be guilty of a crime. Buckshot is nearly useless for anything but a fire fight in a phone booth. If you're afraid of bears, stay out of the bush or use slugs only.

Didn't say I agreed with it, just what the "logic" was as explained to me. Personally I never liked gimmicks and I couldn't care less about the animal's health. Slugs all the way...unless I have something larger handy.

Daniel T
June 3, 2004, 01:11 PM
I'd always heard the point of the buckshot was not to injure the bear at all but just to inflict a lot of pain over a large area.

I'm not responding directly to you, 2nd, but just making a general comment.

If you need to shoot something, shoot to kill. Shooting to cause pain is not morally justified.

MrPink
June 3, 2004, 02:32 PM
With regards to slug loads: I assume you have a smooth bore barrel and conventional chokes. That limits you to rifled slugs. Sabots will give you the higher velocity but you need a rifled barrel (or at minimum, rifled chokes) for them.

Look at the Federal Premium Hydra Shok HP. A 1 oz slug listed at 1600fps. Should do the trick on black bears.

If you want 12 guage heavy, Federal makes a 3" magnum slug HP. 1.25 ox at 1600fps. With proper shot placement, this would definitely put the bear down. Tough on the shoulder though.

Porter Glockwell
June 3, 2004, 03:15 PM
Fear not the mountain lion-fear Jenna, the sage-burning, hemp-wearing, Goddess-chanting vegan who will swoop down upon you and peck mercilessly, bringing her coven of sisters and fey brothers and many, many TV crews!!!

And THAT is where the buckshot comes in handy...

slugs for bears, buckshot for hippies I always say.


Porter

Evil_Ed
June 3, 2004, 03:20 PM
I'd always heard the point of the buckshot was not to injure the bear at all but just to inflict a lot of pain over a large area.

Sole purpose of buckshot in regards to a bear is for blinding it, all follow up rounds should be slug. I thought it made sense when a guy that had spent some time traveling around in Alaska suggested it to me. I figure if it survives buckshot to the face and 7 rounds of slug then he deserves to eat me just for bein a tough SOB.

Hardtarget
June 3, 2004, 11:03 PM
May I suggest...if you shoot a bear,KILL IT! A wounded preadator is the most dangerous animal in the woods! It will be forced to hunt only the slowest and easiest prey...humans. Do everyone living in the area a favor and use enough gun. A 12 ga. with slugs or a heavy rifle will do fine. Also, cats are hard to kill so forget the handguns. You might want to look at a wildlife anatomy book to see how the vital organs sit to get good shot placement. That was a good suggestion to have one watch while one shoots! Have fun, shoot safely, watch your back and don't be lunch! :D
Mark.

dww
June 3, 2004, 11:47 PM
Carry your Kimber with 230 grain FMJFP, I think Hornady and Buffalo Bore sell this ammo. Extra mag, that's 7+1+7= 15 rounds

The shotgun is almost unworkable as your primary weapon. If you are there for plinking or hiking, it will not be near when you need it, that's Murphy's law.

Use your side arm to fight your way to the shotgun if necessary. You will always have your sidearm.

Distance is your friend. fire, retreat, fire, retreat. hell, if you can retreat without firing, all the better!

Decide now what your triggers will be for conditions orange and red (the fact that you are armed puts you at condition yellow already). When will you shoot, why will you shoot, what routes of retreat will you take?

Be realistic in your choice, and in your commitment to carry. Making your primary weapon a shotgun, which is hard to carry and sustain in a fight, is, in my opinion, not the best choice.

"Guns," says Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch, "are like flashlights: one is none, two are one, three are two." i.e. one will crap out when most needed. Better to have a 45 and a small 38 as a backup.

I'm no expert, but I lived in Alaska for 6 years. If I was bumming around, I had a side arm. If I was bear hunting, I had a 45/70 marlin, and a sidearm.

If I thought bears were around and I was at a disadvantage of being snuck up on and attacked, I bought fish in town!

dww

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