[Nightcrawler]

My first handgun was a 1911. A Chuck Daly 4" that I bought when I was 18 (private sale). Thing seemed okay...sometimes the slide wouldn't go all the way back into battery, though I may have been limp-wristing. In any case I sold it and didn't own another handgun until last June, when I turned 21 and bought my CZ-97B.

Still, I've found myself wanting a 1911. Preferably a Psuedo-GI style. What I mean by this is a basic, parkerized gun, nothing fancy, and no silly front cocking serrations. Traditional spur hammer, but with decent sights and an ambi safety, since I'm left handed.

I've been considering a Springfield Mil-Spec or one of the New Rollstamp Colts.

However...

I handled two Springfields in a Gander Mountain today. I hadn't handled a 1911 in a long time, so I came at them with an open mind.

The two pistols were a Springfield Mil-Spec, for $499, and a Springfield Loaded Full Size, for $599. Both were parkerized.

I liked how the grip was nice and thin, for one. I could reach the slide release and magazine release with my trigger finger well enough.

The trigger on the Mil-Spec was unimpressive. I daresay my CZ-97 has a better single action trigger. The CZ has takeup, but it's smooth. The Mil-Spec's trigger was just creepy. The Loaded had a much better trigger.

On the loaded, I could reach the ambi safety fine with my left thumb. However, I found that with the safety down, the left-hand side of it pressed against my trigger finger, and it was immediately noticable and more than a little annoying. I don't have espeically large hands, though I find I handle fat-gripped guns like double stack .45s, and long-gripped guns, like Desert Eagles, fine. The only gun that I just can't seem to get comfy with (though I'd have to shoot one to be sure) is the large frame Glock.

So, I don't know. I can't properly use the 1911 without the ambi safety, yet the ambi safety bothers my trigger finger. The only option that I think would work would be to get a lefty-only safety, and I don't think anyone makes one.

Also, the grips on the Loaded were hideous. They looked nice, but the checkering was so sharp they felt like sandpaper. Since I like the look of smooth walnut grips better, they'd be the first thing I'd change out on a 1911.

So...while I've been wanting a 1911, given my limited funds, it just got bumped way down on my list of handguns to buy. I'm happy as can be with the CZ-97 for the time being.

[norielX]

My brother's a lefty as well, but he shoots with his right hand. Springfields are pretty sharp to the hand. I've got a Loaded stainless, and my brother has cut himself on the slide before. I'm going to limit my autoloader collection to .45 acp launchers. The 97 is a little big in the hand, but so is my G21. I'd recommend trying out as many 1911's out there because they are different from manufacturer to manufacturer. The good thing about 1911's is that you can tailor them to your needs. It's a very versatile gun.

[sm]

Nightcrawler, is a personal thing. I'm not offended being a 1911 fan. Again my criteria is the gun fits the shooter, reliable with ammo in a large enough caliber to acheive quick hits to stop an immediate action.

The guy with a CZ-97 with the above criteria met is smart.

Yeah I have 1911 styles,shot others and some just flat don't fit me LIKE I WANT. I don't want ambi's, nightsights, sharp checkered grips...For instance I do like the factory rubber grips used by Kimber...tried and used on other makers's guns.

Kimbers and Colts "fit" a bit different to me than the SA...haven't tried a newer one...heard they changed to less blockey and higher cut around trigger guard...gun shoots fine, just a little something about fit.

Old Mil-Specs by Colt for some reason- well fits- I just want a crisp 4# trigger...and I'll smoothe the checkering or replace with Kimbers rubber grips...Just me though.

[EJ]

I love the 1911 -- but it really isn't for everyone--
In example-- The BHP is a great gun -- but it just doesn't fit me-- But I respect it and those who choose it-

Try different grips-- They make a big difference--

[10-Ring]

1911's are an acquired taste. They can be really nice & smooth operators....or you might end up w/ a money pit :what:
Really, it depends on how patient you might need to be in regars to your firearms. You might end up w/ a gem and never have a worry or you might not. :(

[EJ]

Didn't even think of that aspect--
Guess I'm just sort of a tinkerer anyway-

You reminded me of my three boxes of spare 1911 parts compared to one for S&W wheelguns--

:eek:

[CZF]

I wonder if you have shot many 1911s? Do you find that
they Twist with recoil?

I owned a series 80 Commander for a few years. Still
find the same thing when i handle and fire a 1911.

A 1911 grip angle tends to concentrate the pistol directly
over the web of my hand. The grip safety likes to pound
my hand during recoil after the gun twists a bit.

Actually, i don't recall much of a 'twist' with my old P220.

Something i don't get with my 97BSA. Maybe because it is
heavier? The thing is a real powder-puff to shoot. A $500
1/14 group (HANDGUNS testing) tack-driver.


The 97B design allows me to get more hand under the super nice
upswept beavertail.

I still like 1911s for the "ALL AMERICAN"image. A stoic history
of being a trusty manstopper. However, this Mystique is due
more to the Cartridge than the JMB design.

The 1911 isn't for me..the 97B suits me better.

[bad_dad_brad]

Sigh! 100 year old design. Hard to take down. Manual safety issues. Finicky. Difficult to master. And what is with that grip safety and that stupid barrel bushing? Even John Browning re-designed and the result was the BHP, a design that is the foundation of every modern (except Beretta's and HK's) semi-automatic handgun.

For everyday I will take a Glock anytime, everytime, over any mil-spec M1911, heck over any M1911 design.

My Dad was an ordinance expert at the end of WWII. He hated the M1911.

Called it a pig.

[Standing Wolf]

I finally bought another model 1911 a couple years ago. It's a Kimber. It's everything the model 1911 was supposed to be all along. It's a vast improvement upon Colts of twenty and thirty years ago.

That said™, I still don't think a great deal of the .45 A.C.P. cartridge, and the gun itself seems clunky and old-fashioned. I know people swear by big, slow-moving cartridges, but as I recall from high school physics, momentum = mass x velocity squared. I don't mind the grip safety, but have never understood why it has a lump sticking out, and the extractor design strikes me as job security for gunsmiths and parts manufacturers.

[Nightcrawler]

This is not intended to be a 1911 bashing thread. From as near as I can tell without shooting one, I can simply state that I don't know if the 1911 fits my hand that well.

The Glock 21 is worse, by a LONG shot. It's the ONLY double stack .45 I've handled that is uncomfortable for me.

[Skunkabilly]

Nightcrawler, kinda in the same boat. While a 1911 is nice to have and I'll probably have another some day, it'll be there 'just because' while the Beretta and HKs handle most of my needs.

That Kimber Tactical looks pretty nice :D

[Navy joe]

Night- FWIW, stock Springfield triggers generally suck, get a trigger job. I'm a lefty and I generally chop the feft side safety arm off to next to nothing. A big component of fit is the mainspring housing, some like arched, some flat, some wedge type, try each. Then there is long trigger, short trigger, flat trigger, etc.

Why does it have to be one or the other with some people? I got Glocks, I got 1911s. If a 1911 is so antiquated, how come almost every other pistol out there incorporates it's design features, and every pistol is judged against an accuracy standard of a good accurized 1911?

[Nightcrawler]

*shrug* I like my CZ-97. I still might get a 1911, as a project gun; any stock 1911's going to require some fiddling with to get it just how I want it anyway. Don't have the funds for something like that just yet, so I'll be getting other things. It's good that I already have one full sized .45. My next semiauto purchase will likely be a compact .45. I'm considering the Sig P245.

[Sven]

My opinion:

If you are going to go for a 1911 then you should really step up and buy a quality 'instance' of this design.

One option with a lot of 'bang for the buck' is the Valtro:

http://www.imageseek.com/valtro/sven/_tucker_valtro_set.jpg
Shown in Tucker Gun Leather (http://www.tuckergunleather.com)

The Valtro is totally reliable and amazingly accurate. I love accurate guns with nice, crisp triggers and enough mass to absorb a bit of the recoil.

Then again, I drive an old (http://www.imageseek.com/sven/bike_side.jpg) motorcycle (http://www.imageseek.com/sven/bike_rear.jpg), while many pass me by on the lastest sport bike.

All boils down to personal preference, and how your hand/brain interact with the steel/plastic.

[Nightcrawler]

How much?

I consider an "affordable" auto pistol to be $350, like a Ruger. I suppose since I spent $589 for the CZ-97 (out the door), that makes a $600 affordable too. But anymore than that's going to give me some trouble these days, probably.

Does Valtro have a website?

[KillitnGrillit]

Triggers get better AFTER you shoot several rounds (called break in the pistol):banghead:

[Shmackey]

but as I recall from high school physics, momentum = mass x velocity squared

This has nothing to do with the thread, so I should leave it alone, but that formula is incorrect. Momentum is mass x velocity. You're thinking of kinetic energy (in which case you do want to square velocity but also multiply mass x 0.5).

[Sven]

The Valtro goes for around $1300.

She'll digest many times that cost in ammo before she moves on to her next home - maybe my (someday) grandchild.

Official Valtro Website (http://www.ValtroUSA.com)
More Valtro Pix (http://www.imageseek.com/valtro)

[Nightcrawler]

Triggers get better AFTER you shoot several rounds (called break in the pistol)

You're banging your head against the wall with anger. My CZ had a nice trigger out of the box. Why should I drop $500 on a gun with a bad trigger? Because it might get better?

Some people just get mad when you don't want to buy their gun of choice, I guess.

Anway, I think that $1300 for the Valtro might be doable. But they all have commander hammers and extended beavertails. I know those are the most popular these days, but it's not what I want in my first 1911. Valtro lists the extended beavertail safety as a "near-custom" feature on their website, but you'll have a harder time finding a 1911 that DOESN'T have one of those. All of Springfield's models do, save the Mil-Spec. All Kimbers do.

I don't dig front cocking serrations, either. I fail to see their utility. They don't look bad, I just prefer a more traditional looking 1911.

I am interested in Valtro's shotgun, though...

[Bergeron]

You might consider simply grinding down the safety on the left side of the gun, it's not like you'll need it. Might look different, but if it helps...

You might want to check out the new rollmark Colts. I've heard many good things about the guns, and all you would need would be an ambi saftey. I don't think you'll find another 1911 with the spur hammer and no FCS besides the Springfields or the Colts. In my opinion, the Colts look and seem like a better pistol.

[Shane]

At one time, I've owned a Colt 1911. Didn't like it one bit. Reliability was terrible, and the grip shape never felt right. I've never liked the feel of straight backstraps. I sold it a few years ago, mostly because I didn't want to make a gunsmith rich to make it reliable.


I've shot Kimbers and Springfields, but never bought one. I did like the Springfields, simply because the ones I tried were reliable and had above average accuracy. The Kimbers I tried had the accuracy and trigger edge, but were not as reliable as the Springfields. I might eventually get a Springfield simply to have a 1911 for my collection (it is a great military firearm for many years--gotta eventually have another one in the collection), but I don't think I'll ever really be a big fan of the design. I'm sure they are great for many shooters, but they just do not excite me based on my experiences.

[Pendragon]

Nightcrawler,

As a person who owns a Valtro (and is still feeling the pain of buying one), I have never seen a finer pistol in my life.

It really is in a different league - the way a Ferrari or Aston Martin is in a different league than a Mustang or a Corvette.

You never hear people saying "why do I want a semi-hand built car that does 170mph (and then some) and costs $200,000 when I can buy a $25,000 Mustang and for another $10k, make it just as fast!"

You should call John Jardine - he is a lefty hisself and thats why the Valtro has the ambi as standard.

I do understand that some do not like the way the Valtro is setup (serrations, finish, safety, etc). IMHO, that is completely missing the point. The Valtro is so much more than the sum of its parts and specs - they are all the same because thats how Jardine can sell a $2,400 gun for $1200.

If you buy a Valtro, do it for the workmanship and because of John Jardine, but to nit pick the features is like bashing a Ferrari because of the limited color selection and you cannot get it with an automatic. Seriously - go buy a Camry/Kimber, whatever mundane car/gun you want.

[Nightcrawler]

So I guess I'm mundane. I drive an Oldsmobile, after all.

In truth, I shouldn't even be thinking about expanding my gun collection. I'm a college student, and most people simply assume that every spare dollar I have should go towards that. But, I think there's going to be plenty of "not having any gun money" when I get to law school, so I'm trying to enjoy my prosperity while I can. *shrug* You're only young once.

That said, $1300 is a lot of money. I'm going to need more than "it's a great gun" and "Mr. Jardine is a great guy" for that kind of money.

As for Kimber...not a chance. Ick.

Yes, I'm mundane. I'm not concerned with sports cars, but if I could get a US made muscle car to perform like a Ferrari for less money, then YES, that's what I'd do. I'm interested in a reliable service sidearm, not a work of art.

Maybe the Valtro is both. But I only require the former, and can get that and have money left over to, you know, eat with.

Geez, twice in one thread people have gotten mad at me. It's not my fault the Springfield Mil-spec I handled had a crappy trigger. It's not my fault the Valtro offers features I don't really want at a price I can't really afford. Don't be mad at me, be mad at the situation!

[Kahr carrier]

Personal Preference It all good 1911 isnt everbodys cup of tea.:)

[stubby]

I have had several 1911s (probably a dozen over the past 30 years) and have had some difficulty with almost all of them. I did have a Springfield that was perfect. I am fickle and trade guns like most people change their underwear (my wife's thought). I keep coming back to the 1911 as I find it to be the most beautiful design (possibly just nostalgia). It is the slimest 45 and makes for a great concealed carry gun in a major calibre. Just picked up an Officer's Model last week:) I probably could have bought a couple of cars with all the money I have spent trading over the years but I can honestly say that I have owned "most" pistols at one time or another. I just enjoy giving them all a try!:D

[stretcharmstrong]

If you were willing to spend as much for the Loaded but liked the feel/appearance of the mil-spec, why not just get the mil-spec and put the $100 towards a trigger job if it doesn't start to smooth out? I'm sure the trigger will smooth out quite a bit w/use. You may want to try and handle a couple different mil-spec's and see if one might have a slightly better trigger out of the box. If you find one w/a better trigger, put the money saved towards some nice grips.

As far as making the grip feel a little bigger, on my Kimber I was going to do one of 2 things. I started w/the cheaper and that was added Pierce rubber finger grooves (that work w/my existing grips) to the frontstrap. Worked great so I didn't do the second. I notice much better control of the pistol and felt recoil is less. The second, which I think is better looking, would be to add an arched mainspring housing. I got the idea from handling a Springfield mil-spec 1911-A1, where it comes standard.

[Climb14er]

a work of art, it can be, in many instances, a really finicky, needy, piece of steel with parts.

If you as most others who have looked at production guns, you can tell which ones will 'usually' give you problems. I've had my fair share of them and have opted to sell the ones that I couldn't stand to be around any longer.

After a lot of searching, I 'think' that I found a 1911 that I could actually hold on to for a long time. Only time will tell.

It's a new Dan Wesson Patriot Marksman, blued, fixed sights, incredibly tight, very accurate, well made, smooth, match barrel, and very 'attractive'. It has no firing pin safety block, is a Series 70 design, has a reliable external extractor and comes with a lifetime warranty. Yes, I know that Dan Wesson has gone through changes. However, this time, I believe they're on to something with excellent quality and attention to customer service and detail.

I have been looking at a Valtro but being that I've never seen one and the price is twice what I paid for the DW, I decided to pass on the Valtro, for now.

Personally speaking, I carry an HK as I know HK's to be reliable, accurate and basically indestructible. AND, I am having fun with the new DW Patriot 1911 .45 ACP.

Good luck on your search.

[TheEgg]

I love 1911s but it does not bother me one bit if someone else does not! Everyone has preferences, their hands are different, different features on a gun have more or less importance to different people, etc. Buy what you like!

However, one thing that bothers me a little when the discussion turns to 1911s is this: A 1911 is a design, not a specific product. There are dozens of different guns made to this basic design, by dozens of different companies. They are not like a SIG for example -- if someone references a SIG 220, it is a reference to a specific model from a specific manufacturer - Colt, SA, Kimber, etc. do not make their own interpretation of a SIG 220.

So when people say that "I bought a Norinco 1911 and it was junk -- I will never buy another 1911 again", I think they are making a mistake. They had an interpretation of the 1911 design made by Norinco that they had little luck with, but that does NOT mean that there is anything inherently wrong with the 1911 design.

In additon, one the the main reasons I like the design is that it is fairly easy to purchase/build a gun that is exactly like YOU want. A lot a people like to purhase a gun and just shoot it -- that is fine with me. But a 1911 lends itself to tinkering, customizing, tuning, etc. which other people like. That is fine too.

Like I said, it boils down to taste in most cases. A quality 1911 can be a spectacular weapon, but it is not the ONLY spectacular weapon -- and a badly made 1911 can be a nightmare, as can any other handgun that is badly made.

[Nightcrawler]

I tend to question the reliability of anything that's "match grade" or is overly tightly fitted; sure, it might reliably cycle ammunition. How does it hold up it if gets dirty? Coated in fine, powdery dust? Rained on? What happens if it gets muddy?

These things are important to me. I like my guns to be field-grade, meaning, they'll work when you're out in the bush, the dirt, and the snow, as well as when you're on the street and they're nice and clean.

[TheEgg]

All but one of my 1911s work under very dirty conditions. I have fired them in dust storms, muddy conditions, rain, etc. I have also, for a test, fired them until they stopped working due to crud -- this usually takes about 600 rounds or more. I have NOT, however, ever tried to intentionally jam them by immersing them in the mud, or sand, or gravel, or what-have-you. If you want to or need to do that, GET A GLOCK.

:D

Oh, by the way, the ones that I do have occasional trouble with are the 3" bbl version guns. I know a lot of people do NOT have trouble with them, but I have. I think they are fun to play with, but I would not trust them for serious work.

[BigG]

"Man's gotta know his limitations." Clint Eastwood :D
(Sorry, Nightcrawler, couldn't resist!)

Good luck on finding a suitable piece! :)

[Sgt]

Geez, twice in one thread people have gotten mad at me. It's not my fault the Springfield Mil-spec I handled had a crappy trigger. It's not my fault the Valtro offers features I don't really want at a price I can't really afford. Don't be mad at me, be mad at the situation!

Nightcrawler, I realize that it's not your fault that Springfield had a bad trigger....it is your fault however, that just because the one you held wasn't to your liking, you have assumed that they are all bad and all the CZ's are good. Frankly, you need more experience with a wider variety of weapons and then maybe you'll be able to see the big picture. I personally don't care what you shoot, since you won't be helping me defend my family.:neener: While I have many years experience shooting lots and lots of firearms, I haven't fired them all and therefore my opinions are just that...opinions.... I know that there are many types of weapons out there and really it's all a matter of what fits you....and the 1911 fits me to a "T" I only own 4 of them, a Colt Combat Commander, a Para P-10, a Kimber Ultra Carry and a Springfield Loaded Mil-Spec Ultra Compact, which by the way...has the best out of the box trigger I've ever seen on a service grade semi-auto. One of these is always with me...I don't sleep unless at least one of these is within arms reach!! And someday I just might get me a Valtro, or a Wilson, etc. etc....and do you know why? Because this is AMERICA and I can, that's why...:D

Good Luck with your Eastern Block weapon....I'll just stick to a classic John Moses Browning design and and be glad we have the right to disagree.... :p Semper Fi, Sgt

[Nightcrawler]

I didn't say that all 1911s have bad triggers; I know this to be untrue. In fact, the Charles Daly I owned had a great trigger; a much better trigger, in fact, than that one Springfield had. As I said, the Springfield Loaded had a very nice trigger.

I never said anything of the sort, about all 1911s being bad and all CZs being good. Nothing even implying that. I simply said that my CZ-97 had a better trigger out of the box than that Springfield Mil-Spec I handled.

As for my eastern block weapon...was that meant to be derrogatory? The CZ is a private company, now, and the 97 wasn't designed until 1997, well after the fall of communisim and the end of Czeckoslovokia.

I will point out that your Springfield is acutally made by Imbel of Brazil. Valtros are made in Italy. Paras are made in Canada. *shrug* Canada's more socialist than the Czech Republic is.

As for John Browning...well, he bascially designed the CZ-97, too. The CZ-75 is based on the Hi-Power, and the 97 is an enlarged 75, so...yeah, it's got Browning in it. Most handguns do, as a matter of fact, since the Browning design for a breech locked handgun just works so well.

[Sgt]

Paras are made in Canada. *shrug* Canada's more socialist than the Czech Republic is.

No argument there....ok, ok, I read you wrong...you're not an idiot...just an opinionated pain in the....like me...:D

And yes the eastern bloc thing was meant to be derogatory :p I have listened to soooo many people talk up the AK-47, etc....and I know they're decent weapons.....but damn it, I'm an American and I ain't going for it...:cuss: LOL

I know where my springys parts came from and I know where my para was made......I deliberated long and hard over both...but I figured the Colt & Kimber...not to mention all those Ruger wheelguns more than make up for those two.....:what:

Anyway, have a great day Nightcrawler.....Sgt

[DAL]

If you shoot well with the CZ97, don't worry about a 1911. Personally, I REALLY enjoy shooting my Rock Island Armory cheapie full-size 1911, but that's just me. Give yourself some more time and take a look at a 1911 again next year. In the meantime, stock up on ammo and enjoy your CZ97 (which is much too big for my hand).
DAL

[Pendragon]

The Valtro may be "made in Italy" but it is made to Jardines exacting specs and he does the crucial final fitting on them.

A 1911 that is made properly (I will leave it at that ;)) wil be tightly fitted, and both accurate and reliable. Those two qualities are not exclusive.

I do agree with most of what has been said. However, I would like to address your comments on cars.

This from a guy who has had a lot of different cars and now drives a 1987 Honda Accord 4 door. (dont laugh, its paid for).

My Ferrari to Mustang analogy was intended to convery that the Valtro is more than just a good 1911. It is a gun that is made by a master craftsman who has a life long passion for 1911s.

If you only want a car that will attain a certain speed, you can do so for a relatively small ammount of money. If that is your goal, the Ferrari is not for you. If you want a car that is fast, beautiful, rare, and built with people who are madly in love with the automobile and spend all their time thinking about how to make it better in some way, then you buy a Ferrari.

If all you want is a 1911 pattern gun that has a good trigger and is reliable, you can get that for well under the price of a Valtro.

I am a pragmatic person my nature, but I have had a lot of handguns with problems (ok, two with problems). I wanted a gun that was so good that it would never be the weakest link. I wanted a gun that would be unique and I would not see everywhere I go (my serial # is in the 400s and I hear the new ones are only in the 600s still).

Some people look at a car - any car as simple transportation and some people look at a gun as simply a weapon. If this is your view, it is perfectly valid and you should seek a weapon that fits your personal idiom.

Yes, we Valtro owners are a crazy lot - we relentlessly evangelize for the gun - mostly because we want Valtro to be around a long time and we want others to know the great value and craftsmanship that is found in this gun.

[New_comer]

Get a HK USP STD, Tactical, or Expert 45ACP

It'll solve all your 45ACP problems: 1911-style safety, 45Super compatible, built like a tank, black as can be, reeks of German quality engineering, shoots like a dream, and most of all...

The snobbish appeal as it's expensive as heck, just like a quality 1911 could be... :cool: :evil:

[Nightcrawler]

I almost bought a USP45. What it came down to was the fact that the CZ-97 was prettier and cost less. It, too, has a 1911 style safety. No decocker or anythign. Some CZ-97 owners have had theirs converted to single action.

The appealing thing about the HK would've been all the accessories for it. Finding holsters for the CZ-97 has been tough, but there are a few quality houses (like High Noon Holsters) that make stuff for it.

Make no mistake about it, I still want a 1911. I just don't want a fancy one. I'll have to shoot a full sized one before I can decide once and for all on the fit. That will be the determiner.

[cratz2]

One thing on the springfield trigger, I've replaced the ILS mainspring housing on four SA 1911A1s with a non-ILS housing and Wilson 'better than new' internals from Brownells. Cost should be around $15 plus whatever you pay for the MSH itself. Anywhere from a $55 Wilson to a $10 polymer McCormick has worked for me. Just these changes make a dramatic difference. Matter of fact, my primary carry piece has not had a trigger job and it is just as good as any of my 1911s with trigger jobs.

Overall, I can certainly see your point on the 1911 vs everything else. I definately like the 1911, but the CZ platform is excellent as well. The 97 is a bit too big for me, but I love the CZ75 and the EAA Witness. For concealed carry, I guess I don't have a problem with the Glocks or SIGs, but they just seem so blaah... Maybe they seem blaah because they work perfectly out of the box. :scrutiny:

Oh well... the quest is fun.