"LA is on the road to Falluja"


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Preacherman
June 3, 2004, 12:54 PM
From the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/this_world/3771411.stm):

Last Updated: Thursday, 3 June, 2004, 13:08 GMT 14:08 UK

LA 'on the road to Falluja'?

By Anita Rice
BBC News and Current Affairs

The LA murder rate is going up and the police chief has requested more officers. But California is broke and cannot afford to recruit.

Civil rights lawyer Connie Rice warns that with too few officers to "police humanely", parts of the city may as well be in Falluja.

Los Angeles is notorious for gang violence, but even by LA standards 2002 was gruesome. With 658 murders in just that one year, it became America's murder capital.

Of those murders, almost half were directly related to gang turf wars involving drugs and guns. And of those gangs, most are based in south-central or south-east LA.

With a spiralling murder rate and poor police-community relations following the Rodney King riots and the Rampart corruption scandal, the city appointed a new chief to clean up its act.

Amid much fanfare and hype William Bratton - the man credited with cleaning up New York's once-soaring crime rate under the political stewardship of former mayor Rudy Giuliani - was brought in to get LA under control.

Chief Bratton immediately appointed a second deputy charged with concentrating some officers in gang areas and targeting gangs. He also prioritised improving relations with minority communities.

'Shovelling quicksand'

And 2003 saw the overall murder rate fall in LA by 23%, but so far this year the murder rate is back on the increase across the city.

The LAPD's figures show a 5% year-on-year rise in homicides from Jan to April 2004.

And while the number of homicides fell in some neighbourhoods last year, it only ever continued to rise in the hardcore gang areas.

In civil-rights lawyer Connie Rice's words, the officers are simply "shovelling quicksand" - and without more equipment, back-up, effective witness protection, training and, crucially, more officers, they are fighting a losing battle.

And she should know. Having worked with the community and the LAPD on various initiatives and reform programmes ever since the 1992 Rodney King case sparked riots, she is now about to begin investigating the newly re-opened Rampart police corruption scandal inquiry.

Aside from a rising homicide rate, Ms Rice warns that the gangs are crossing a line that has not been crossed before: They are now targeting police officers themselves.

She says: "It's one thing for gangsters to exchange fire with the police in situations, but we are now starting to see sniping. We are now seeing the ambushing of cops by gangsters and we should be panicking.

"We are on the way to a point of no return and we will end up in a Falluja situation. It is already a Falluja situation in some areas. LA is on the road to Falluja."

Ms Rice also claims potential witnesses are even being murdered by criminals inside jails because the prisons are "so overcrowded and thinly staffed". She says this has happened five times already this year alone.

She also says the situation with gangs was so out of control that even older gang leaders were frightened of today's members because they do not operate within a moral framework at all.

"Who's bringing them up?" one former Crips gang leader asked Ms Rice after telling her even he feared the younger gangsters. She warns when that happens, "We should be very, very afraid."

Occupying army?

Ms Rice says the way LA is policed needs to be overhauled.

She says the LAPD's tactics resemble those of an occupying army that is effectively at war with the community and only hopes to hold criminals in one area.

"It's a containment model. It's highly aggressive but we don't have enough cops to police humanely, just to keep crime contained."

Police officers routinely stop and search people in a bid to get information and under the law they are free to stop anyone on probation. In these areas Ms Rice says you can presume that 80% of the population are on probation.

She describes these tactics as creating "a police state, it is not a constitutional democracy in these areas", and believes the only way to control the gangs effectively is for the police to become part of the community.

She says the police must "act like part of the community, live there and talk to people because the LAPD needs community intelligence.

"The community is the only place. They are the only ones who know who is psychopathic and who's just wearing gang colours because they might get beaten or even killed."

She claims that while Chief Bratton has made "big changes at leadership level that doesn't mean the desk sergeant gets it."

Ms Rice is not optimistic for the future; she thinks it will take from 15 to 20 years before the changes Chief Bratton has succeeded with at leadership level reach the rank and file officers.

California is broke and the city has not been able to fund recruiting the extra officers Chief Bratton requested.

Ms Rice claims the city is about to close 10 swimming pools and business analysts are warning that teenagers face the toughest holiday job market this summer for 40 years.

With the existing, simmering tensions, without any increase in police numbers and a reduction in facilities and employment, Connie Rice warns LA is facing a "very long, hot summer."

In a statement to the BBC an LAPD spokesman quoted Chief Bratton as saying: "At a time when youth gang murders are on the rise, we need Congress to reject proposed cuts to juvenile justice funds.

"Instead, we must increase investments in the proven community programs working with our police to cut gang crime."

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buy guns
June 3, 2004, 01:20 PM
so when is cali supposed to sink into the ocean?

41mag
June 3, 2004, 01:20 PM
So where's that huge earthquake I've been warned about all my life?You know,the one where California breaks off & floats away?

Seriously though,Cali is so seemingly messed up where could you even begin to fix its problems?

{mark Disney Land of the travel plans this summer:rolleyes: }

Devonai
June 3, 2004, 01:27 PM
This isn't a news article, it's an editorial. The only person quoted other than Connie Rice is the LAPD Captain for one line at the end of the "story," and that statement agrees with the editorial point. You call this journalism?

R.H. Lee
June 3, 2004, 01:31 PM
I grew up in LA. It used to be a good place to live. Now it is a stinking crime ridden multicultural cesspool. Decent people have been moving out for years. The socialist/leftist/statist/democrats made their bed. Let them lie in it. Screw 'em.

HankB
June 3, 2004, 02:49 PM
None of this should be a surprise to anyone.

This type of downward spiral has been predicted for years. Tolerance of lawlessness that breaks the peace, rampant illegal immigration, all of this has been forseen and warned against. Repeatedly.

But what happened?

Liberals damned the ones who made the predictions with being intolerant, racist, insenstive, insufficiently multicultural, and politically incorrect. And things continued downhill. Heck, even Hollywood "B" movies based in the "not too distant" future show this happening. (Think of Predator II or Robocop.. . . even older gang leaders were frightened of today's members because they do not operate within a moral framework at all. "Who's bringing them up?" one former Crips gang leader asked Ms Rice after telling her even he feared the younger gangsters. Well, the offspring of the Crips and others of their ilk became what was termed "feral youth." Now yesterday's "feral youth" is breeding, and their offspring are worse. Duh. :rolleyes:

BeLikeTrey
June 3, 2004, 03:10 PM
I thought feinstein banned all the gang weapons:rolleyes:
Better just ban them all! Make sure we replace the cops with baton toting bobbies!

Gordon Fink
June 3, 2004, 03:27 PM
Los Angeles Crime Paradise Check List

Institutionalized poverty? Check!
Lucrative black-market opportunities? Check!
RKBA of law-abiding residents infringed? Check!

Any surprises? Nope!

~G. Fink

El Tejon
June 3, 2004, 03:29 PM
How can those limp-wristed sissies out there out do our Gary?!?!:fire:

This is an outrage; I demand a recount of bodies!

gunsmith
June 3, 2004, 03:52 PM
"I will allways miss the temperate climate and beaches"

heh,Ive allways wanted to get that in b4 he did!

fjolnirsson
June 3, 2004, 04:02 PM
Makes me think of escape from LA.:p

wolf
June 3, 2004, 04:47 PM
thus .. my signature

btw: connie rice is the cousin of condi rice

wolf

Shanghai McCoy
June 3, 2004, 05:00 PM
It would appear that the Golden State was merely gilded.Too bad but I don't miss it.Lived places with better beaches and better climate.There is more to life than sun and sand...

agricola
June 3, 2004, 05:05 PM
this is all to do with this programme:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/this_world/3711919.stm

which has just finished on BBC 2 (I gather it was originally shown on ABC News in the US)

buy guns
June 3, 2004, 05:36 PM
come to florida, we have plenty of beach to go around.

Standing Wolf
June 3, 2004, 08:24 PM
heh,Ive allways wanted to get that in b4 he did!

Good for you.

Triad
June 4, 2004, 01:42 AM
HankB, you overlooked Demolition Man.

rayra
June 4, 2004, 02:57 AM
:rolleyes: at the story.
10,000 sq. mi of people, some 23millions within 100mi of City Hall. Wall to wall people.

That 2002 stat is 17/100,000, what's your nearest major city's murder rate?

Have to go look for the historical data, iirc correctly, the numbers this histrionic article is based on are fairly low compared to the last ~30yrs.

Black Majik
June 4, 2004, 05:08 AM
if only california was a shall issue state for CCW, then we can police ourselves... :)

Langenator
June 4, 2004, 06:44 AM
The problem of witnesses to gang crimes being intimidated and/or killed, and the inability of the police to protect them, isn't unique to LA. I seen several articles/editorials on the same problem in San Francisco.

Of course, it's all in the PRK, where the state denies it's citizens the tools to protect themselves.

La Pistoletta
June 4, 2004, 08:13 AM
658 murders a year. :what:
That's more than twice that of whole Germany...

carp killer
June 4, 2004, 09:51 AM
Seriously though,Cali is so seemingly messed up where could you even begin to fix its problems?

Cut off ALL welfare and food stamps in areas that have the high crime rates.

wingman
June 4, 2004, 10:22 AM
Once again, as population increases, you have increased crime, more laws to control the crime+less freedom for all. Calif. is a model for the future of America
unless we find a way to control unchecked illegal/legal immigration.. It just
will not work folks an open door policy without checks and balances and the
world will crush us in the end. We cannot feed half the world and bring the other
here, while it would be "nice" to see everyone have a job, children never go to
bed hungry, it will only be worse if America fails.:(

7.62FullMetalJacket
June 4, 2004, 10:33 AM
I, too, think it is an editorial, selectively picking facts.

That said, however, when are we going to view street gangs as domestic terrorists? What about Order 40?

rick_reno
June 4, 2004, 10:49 AM
"Instead, we must increase investments in the proven community programs working with our police to cut gang crime."

"Proven community programs"? What a bunch of crap. The only thing proven in South Central is that gang bangers keep killing people. If they want a "proven community program", give them ammo. It's been proven they will kill each other and I'm sure it's cheaper than locking them up.

moa
June 4, 2004, 11:13 AM
Some of this gangbangers trying to kill cops probably comes with MS-13 gang originally from Central America. Killing cops is their calling card to let you know they are in the area.

And these gangbangers are terrorists. I understand that in LA 60% of the gang members are illegal aliens.

And, according to an old program on 60 Minutes TV program, some of the Mexican gangs in LA have been warring since the 1940s.

And, this problem is spreading all over America. Much of it caused by the illegal aliens.

rick_reno
June 4, 2004, 12:00 PM
And, this problem is spreading all over America. Much of it caused by the illegal aliens.

I don't have any idea if this is true, but we should thank President Bush for esculating the flow of illegal aliens. I've read on Fox news that since he announced his amesty program that 800,000 illegal aliens streamed across the border hoping for amesty. The estimate was based on numbers caught, they caught roughly 200k and the border patrol figures they catch less than 25% of them.

Sawdust
June 4, 2004, 12:19 PM
And these gangbangers are terrorists. I understand that in LA 60% of the gang members are illegal aliens.

And the police are not even *allowed* to arrest them...even though the cop *knows* that the person is an illegal alien.

It happens daily. A cop will spy a known BG and illegal alien walking down the street. The cop knows that this dude is a BG and an illegal alien 'cause the BG has been convicted before *and* deported. But, there he is, back in California and freely strolling down the street.

And the cop can do *nothing*. How can that be? To save my typing fingers, I have pasted this from www.warriorsfortruth.com:

"The ordinarily tough-as-nails former LAPD chief Daryl Gates enacted Special Order 40 in 1979—showing that even the most unapologetic law-and-order cop is no match for immigration advocates. The order prohibits officers from “initiating police action where the objective is to discover the alien status of a person”—in other words, the police may not even ask someone they have arrested about his immigration status until after they have filed criminal charges, nor may they arrest someone for immigration violations. They may not notify immigration authorities about an illegal alien picked up for minor violations. Only if they have already booked an illegal alien for a felony or for multiple misdemeanors may they inquire into his status or report him. The bottom line: a cordon sanitaire between local law enforcement and immigration authorities that creates a safe haven for illegal criminals...The stated reasons for sanctuary policies are that they encourage illegal-alien crime victims and witnesses to cooperate with cops without fear of deportation, and that they encourage illegals to take advantage of city services like health care and education (to whose maintenance few illegals have contributed a single tax dollar, of course)."

The whole story (http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/illegal-aliens-crimes.html) Warning: reading this may cause you to lose your lunch.

The present LA Police Chief, Bill Bratton, could eliminate this restriction with an executive order...but he refuses to do so...:rolleyes: :banghead: :cuss:

It is incredible to me how spineless the "authorities" are, and how they kowtow to the special interests who defend and encourage illegal immigration.

Sawdust

moa
June 4, 2004, 12:27 PM
Right. And any illegal alien who is deported and re-enters the US again illegally is a felon under Federal law. But who cares??

SWMAN
June 4, 2004, 12:44 PM
I thought with Califorina's DOJ model gun control approval list laws, her Royalness Diane and that outstanding liberal Governor endorsing an extension of the Federal AWB, people would be asking "what crime in LA"? Guess gun control isn't working as effectively as they'd hoped it would. Well, maybe the City of LA can hire Michael Moore as a crime reduction/gun control adviser.

R.H. Lee
June 4, 2004, 12:55 PM
Good post, Sawdust. Thank you for the link. (don't be surprised if w4rma comes along and tags you with a "xenophobe" post it note):D

Since you're in Ventura, can we here in San Luis Obispo count on you to stop 'em before they get any further north? ;)

Sawdust
June 4, 2004, 01:32 PM
Good post, Sawdust. Thank you for the link. (don't be surprised if w4rma comes along and tags you with a "xenophobe" post it note)
Then w4rma needs to learn the correct definition of a xenophobe.

Since you're in Ventura, can we here in San Luis Obispo count on you to stop 'em before they get any further north?

Too late...have you been to Santa Maria lately?:D

Sawdust

Ol' Badger
June 4, 2004, 01:37 PM
Why don't we just set aside an area for the Gangs to do battle in? Kind of like a free fire zone. Save the rest of the state for those civilized people. I'm meen the pictures I've seen sure look nice.

Lochaber
June 4, 2004, 01:47 PM
So where's that huge earthquake I've been warned about all my life?You know,the one where California breaks off & floats away?

Hmm I though that when the Big One hits, The golden state was going to woosh north and smash into Alaska. Something about the layout of the plates :neener:

Loch

El Tejon
June 4, 2004, 02:16 PM
Smash into Alaska??? Hey, then the bears can eat the gangbangers.:)

RVSinOK
June 4, 2004, 02:24 PM
... we should be panicking.

The rallying cry of liberals everywhere! :rolleyes:

Gordon Fink
June 4, 2004, 03:24 PM
[D]on’t be surprised if w4rma comes along and tags you with a “xenophobe” post it note.…

“Xenophobia” or “racism” may have a little to do with the fear, but if we had an institutionalized underclass of poor white people, we would probably just blame immigration from Ireland or Italy or someplace like that. Oh, wait! :D

~G. Fink

R.H. Lee
June 4, 2004, 04:20 PM
“Xenophobia” or “racism” may have a little to do with the fear, but if we had an institutionalized underclass of poor white people, we would probably just blame immigration from Ireland or Italy or someplace like that. Oh, wait!

IIRC, the "institutionalized underclass........from Ireland or Italy......" of the LAST century was not created nor was it subsidized by government.

Therein lies the difference. :)

carp killer
June 4, 2004, 11:02 PM
The present LA Police Chief, Bill Bratton, could eliminate this restriction with an executive order...but he refuses to do so...

He is scared to "offend" the good citizens of South Central LA. :scrutiny:
Most of the beat cops in that area just put in their time, then transfer out to safer areas.

Lagadelphia
June 6, 2004, 11:08 AM
Am I the only one who doesn't have a problem with gang members killing other gang members? Or drug dealers killing off other drug dealers? If you catch the kilelr it works out to be a two for one deal.

7.62FullMetalJacket
June 6, 2004, 11:18 AM
A coupla days ago there was a drive-by where the shooters hit a woman and a baby in a stroller, killing both.

SIGarmed
June 6, 2004, 09:53 PM
I think it should be open season on gang members. Then maybe this problem will go away. The leftists that have total control of the city are the ones to blame. The dumb locals can't grasp this fact and vote for them anyway.

The majority of the killings are done by teenage gang members. Stupid blood thirsty kids with guns trying to prove something. Their victims don't have to be other gang members either.

Their parents aren't able to raise them properly or at all so we pay the price. And yes a huge amount of them are here illegally with the local cities blessing.

I have no sypmathy for gang members. Good riddance.

The problem is they are a real danger to the good people of the city and their crime statistics are used against law abiding gun owners and not them.

moa
June 7, 2004, 11:21 AM
According to the statistics I have recently read, it is estimated that 60% of the gangbangers are illegal aliens in the LA area.

Additionally, in the Washington DC area, especially Northern Virginia, the gangbangers prey on the public with robberies and the like. And, sometimes they engage in drive-by shootings and running gun battles on the streets. Estimates for No. VA. is there are at least 3,000 gangbangers.

Ol' Badger
June 7, 2004, 11:23 AM
2,999 GB's

I just read somewhere that we lost another one. Too bad.
Another lost his fingers in a machtee attack.

;) :evil:

DigitalWarrior
June 7, 2004, 11:32 AM
Or we could just legalize drugs and guns.

People are no longer offing each other in record numbers over beer. Propably work for drugs too.

birdv
June 7, 2004, 11:44 AM
I don't plan on visiting falluja or LA this summer.
Can we give LA to Mexico or maybe the Native Americans?

Lagadelphia
June 7, 2004, 02:33 PM
Idon't plan on visiting falluja or LA this summer.
Can we give LA to Mexico or maybe the Native Americans?



Haven't the Native American's suffered enough without giving them L.A. too?:neener:

longeyes
June 8, 2004, 01:23 PM
I live in L.A. Stay out of the wrong 'hoods, especially after dark, and you'll be fine.

I think it should be open season on gang members. Then maybe this problem will go away.

Yeah, but there are a hundred thousand, at least, of these thugz. This is a military problem in scope at this point.

mattd
June 8, 2004, 01:57 PM
legalizing drugs would help our crime problem so much. i feel like :banghead:

WilderBill
June 8, 2004, 02:20 PM
Well, sure it would, Matt.
Just ask the dimwits running most of SoCal.
If you are stoned enough those trivial little problems just don't bother you at all any more.

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