An 'Open' Observation


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CB900F
June 3, 2004, 10:52 PM
Fella's;

I was in the local Barnes & Noble the other day. While there, I observed a young man, high & tight, white T-shirt & jeans, sitting on a bench in the magazine section, reading, with a Glock openly carried on his hip.

I was carrying myself, but not openly. Since he was behaving normally I didn't involve myself with him in any way. Did keep a weather eye out for him though. Yesterday, I called the sheriff's office, which is a recorded line, & talked with a deputy. I asked him about the situation, as I was under the opinion that open carry was not legal for civilians in the city.

I was told that in Montana, open carry is legal for anyone who has a concealed weapon permit, except in the usual places, ie. where alchohol is served, banks, & schools.

Of course, open carry is legal statewide except in the National Parks, and in populated areas that have passed ordinances against it. But the state carry law apparantly negates the local law. I would have thought the intent of the law was to prevent hassle in case of an inadvertant flash. I would never have thought someone's allowed to walk down main street packin'. And I've been carrying here for years.

Gotta say though, there was no 'stir' or any other indication that people were upset in Barnes & Noble. It was populated also, this was on a busy afternoon, not some weird hour of the day.

Comments?

900F

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forquidder
June 3, 2004, 10:57 PM
Homeland Defense.....................................The way it was meant to be. ;)

Standing Wolf
June 3, 2004, 11:13 PM
I've been carrying openly now and then. So far, nobody's even noticed.

P95Carry
June 3, 2004, 11:22 PM
As a statement - and a rights preservation excercise .... I applaud it totally.

I am even happier when it causes no stir or hysteria .... it is then a particularly useful demonstartion of peaceful armed society ... wish it were totally widespread as an option ... without the risk of sheeple heart attacks!:rolleyes: :p

R.H. Lee
June 3, 2004, 11:32 PM
I have no problem with it. I can't help but think what a dither the lefties
who populate the local Barnes and Noble would have been in had the same thing happened here in San Luis Obispo. SLO PD (snort) would have been called and dispatched their finest SWAT (snort) team. It would be a hoot.:D

Josey
June 3, 2004, 11:34 PM
I know a CAS shooter who rides his Harley to shoots. Two Buntline Rugers, two Ruger Sheriff models in shoulder holsters and a bandoleer across his chest. We were asked if a movie was being made. I have openly carried into BAM before. My Ruger 44-40s, S&W breaktop in my boot and my derringer in my vest pocket. The odd thing was when I opened the door and held it for some ladies entering. My good manners dropped their jaws. I even removed my hat.:cool:

R.H. Lee
June 3, 2004, 11:36 PM
My Ruger 44-40s, S&W breaktop in my boot and my derringer in my vest pocket. The odd thing was when I opened the door and held it for some ladies entering. My good manners dropped their jaws. I even removed my hat.


A photo of THAT would be priceless!:)

TallPine
June 4, 2004, 12:18 AM
Open carry is legal in MT except where guns are prohibited.

Concealed carry without a permit is legal outside city limits.

Permit required for concealed carry within city limits.

Since he was behaving normally I didn't involve myself with him in any way.
Well, gee, now - that was nice of you ...:rolleyes:

BTW, a while back I saw a guy carrying a "black rifle" on a sling in downtown Billings. I paid him no mind, as did everyone else that I could tell.

Zundfolge
June 4, 2004, 12:29 AM
Sounds like mvpel had to drive all the way to Montana to do his book shopping :neener:

Majic
June 4, 2004, 02:12 AM
I have never understood those who carry concealed that are surprised when they see someone carrying open. They are doing no more than you are, excersing their right, but yet you have to carefully watch them.
On many other threads there has been many things said against open carry, but it all points to a very serious issue. The concept of divide and conqueror can prevail and the anti-gun side won't have to lift a finger. Why can't we the gun owners just respect the right to carry no matter how someone legally chooses to do it?
If we can't trust each other, then who will trust us?

Treylis
June 4, 2004, 02:39 AM
I've carried openly a number of times into Barnes and Noble and there's never been a problem. Nice to see someone else having the same experience.

BluesBear
June 4, 2004, 05:02 AM
...there was no 'stir' or any other indication that people were upset... This is the way it's supposed to be!

Maybe there's hope for America yet.


I have often been asked why I carry a Leatherman tool on my belt each and every day. The funny thing is I am only asked this after I have started using it. (usually to fix/adjust something that belongs to someone else.) I just smile and say, "I carry it because you never know when you might need a screwdriver... like right now."

Zach S
June 4, 2004, 08:23 AM
I have often been asked why I carry a Leatherman tool on my belt each and every day. The funny thing is I am only asked this after I have started using it.
LOL!!! Me too!!! Funny aint it? Thats like seeing someone changing a tire and asking why they carry a spare.

Kaylee
June 4, 2004, 08:28 AM
The odd thing was when I opened the door and held it for some ladies entering. My good manners dropped their jaws. I even removed my hat.

Truly, chivalry is not dead. Thank you kindly, sir. :)

-K

mfree
June 4, 2004, 08:36 AM
I'm down in Tennessee and therefore have a much higher count of "sheeple" than I'd guess Montana does... and I've had my own runins with open carry, or close to it.

I used to work for a radioshack (gack hurk :barf: ) in Alcoa... we were about the only place anywhere you could get certain batteries... like the ones in some brands of illuminated scopes.

Couple guys had no problems walking in with a slung shotgun or rifle (each once, two seperate times) which I understand, they didn't want to detach the scope. The manager had visibly high blood pressure, but I just got the guys their batteries and rung them out. It's no big deal, it's the gun you don't see (or the one pointed at you) you've got to worry about :)

I had my own high blood pressure moment once though... You rarely see carry around since at the time CCW was just passed and open carry isn't common. A guy comes into the store and there's what in my fuzzy memory appeared to he aa S&W 686 on his left hip.... and no badge. Heart skipped a beat, then reason took over that hey, he's probably a warrant officer, bondsman, PI, something... if you're causing trouble, you're probably not going to have a *nice* gun, and it certainly isn't going to be in a custom holster on your hip in plain view :)

chas_martel
June 4, 2004, 09:06 AM
God, it really distrurbs me that when people, GUN OWNERS, see open carry their first thought is , "..must be cop.".



Geez, I am obviously living in the wrong century....................................


We are sooooo screwed if gunowners are responding like this. What is the
hope for the sheep?

TallPine
June 4, 2004, 10:28 AM
Guns .... Leatherman ... how about pickups ???????


"How come you drive that big gas hog?"

"Will you help me move this weekend?"

:fire:

1911Tuner
June 4, 2004, 11:03 AM
I remember a time in my area that an openly carried sidearm wouldn't draw
so much as a second glance. If an LEO said anything at all, it was to inquire about how you liked the model and to offer his for examination of his action job...usually performed by a retired W-S police Sargeant. I've even carried openly into the Hall of Justice in downtown Winston-Salem to get a pistol permit, and had the Forsyth County Sheriff come out of his office to talk guns with me....and it hasn't been all that long ago. Times have changed. Now an openly carried pistol creates a stir that's just a little short of panic...even in a farming community like King or Rural Hall.

I'm lucky in that I know most of the local cops...worked on their guns, and hunted our elusive Whitetail Deer and spent a lotta range time with'em... They know that I carry, and even bump frisk me once in a while in the
grocery store or a diner...but let somebody they don't know walk around
with one on a belt, and they get real concerned about it. Time was that they didn't...

Sad state of affairs, if you ask me...

Just my 2% of a buck.

Tuner

Larry Ashcraft
June 4, 2004, 11:18 AM
I rode my motorcycle to a IHMSA silhouette match back in the early 80's. A friend of mine who lives in town hauled my guns and ammo for me. When we got back I went to his house and picked up my stuff. Strapped the cased Wichita on the back seat, now where do I carry this Super Blackhawk? Oh, yeah, I have a holster. So I rode the 10+ miles home with my hogleg strapped on my hip.

Only one person that I know of even noticed. Remember Billy Gallegos, the Iran hostage? Well he did a double-take as he drove by me in his Camaro. The look on his face said "What's this civilian doing carrying a gun?". :scrutiny:

mfree
June 4, 2004, 12:13 PM
"God, it really distrurbs me that when people, GUN OWNERS, see open carry their first thought is , "..must be cop."."

Well, This was at least 5 years ago.. I was somewhat a different person. Straightened my arrow, so to speak, since then :)

Kinsman
June 4, 2004, 12:44 PM
Like Mr. Pine said....
In Montana, conceal 'em if you got 'em, no permission needed outside city limits...

Open carry where you want.

I have open-carried a big ol' Hawgleg .44 in the city and nobody said anything. Lots of guys hereabouts keep rifles in plain view in their truck racks, all the time...not just during hunting season.

I lived in Southern Cal for a few years and usually had a .32 colt stashed. Nobody ever the wiser. I do prefer to keep 'em hidden, but I like to see folks open carry.

Gives me the warm-and-fuzzies.

bogie
June 4, 2004, 01:09 PM
Now, campers, someone's gonna jump down my throat over this, but here goes...

I live in St. Louis. Open carry here = brandishing.

I still occasionally see folks, generally looking like off-duty cops (but not always...), etc., carrying opening.

Thing is, I don't always see badges, or other stuff.

This sorta makes me nervous... Face it. There is a segment of the population out there who gets off on what I'll call the "Travis Bickle Syndrome." Strap on the hawgleg, and attitude, and play "you talkin' to me?" If some wannabe mall ninja is wandering around with his own portable boomstick, that makes me nervous.

TallPine
June 4, 2004, 01:31 PM
bogie, I think your condition is called "hoglegphobia"

:neener:

fjolnirsson
June 4, 2004, 01:41 PM
someone's gonna jump down my throat over this

Not me. As you've stated, open carry is not legal in St. Louis. If it ain't legal, I don't advocate open carry.
Only thing that gets me all worked up is when people berate and down right make fun of a guy for open carry in a place where it's legal. Legal is legal. If the soccer moms haven't made open carry illegal someplace, and a gunnie feels like it, there shouldn't be a hue and cry from the RKBA folks, should there?

Matthew Courtney
June 4, 2004, 01:54 PM
I live in St. Louis. Open carry here = brandishing.

Can you cite a specific statute to back up this assertion? I have searched Missouri law and can find nothing defining "brandishing" or even making "brandishing" any kind of crime.

odysseus
June 4, 2004, 01:55 PM
I am not old, but growing up in a liberal area of Cali - I would take summers in AZ where my family there was pretty second ammendment oriented. The contrast was always large between these, I remember as a youth describing back to friends in Cali how even a neighbor of a relative I was staying with mowed his lawn packing. They thought it was weird and would translate it even to me being weird, but if you look back at how AZ still in areas was still very western and people still had what in my mind was the mindset to what America was built on (outside of those who combined it with racism). This I am sure has changed. The baby-boomers have really trashed this up, and I am a gen X'er.

Now even gun people are worried and unsettled when they see civilians packing. I myself wouldn't do it open in most situations as it brings unwanted scrutiny and harassment (as well as tactical defense) issues. The whole thing is that I feel I am living in the last age of civilian gun ownership even though we are constitutionally protected, it is being whittled away.

And why does not the NRA with all it's big money and people work to change public opinion in areas like Cali where it is weak? It's a public opinion war and in my mind in the liberal areas it is loosing. With the containment "one-world" second amendment bashing teachers in the powerful teachers unions teaching fear and liberal dogma to youth - what does anyone think here is going to happen in 50 years with gun laws and our ability to posses them in the whole country? You need a strong force of people and money like the NRA - but as far as I can see they don't see it as a priority and are being very isolationist on the issue.

1911Tuner
June 4, 2004, 02:11 PM
Sad, but it's probably best to just put the gun under our shirts and go about our business...even in area where open carry is legal. Why stir up
the soccer moms and give'em somethin' to lobby against?

Cheers!

Tuner <------Rememberin' a better time in America

M2 Carbine
June 4, 2004, 02:23 PM
I know all the arguments again't open carry and I've used them myself but if Texas had open carry I can see wanting to carry a 45 open rather than a Kel Tec 380 in my pocket in our 100+ degree heat, where it's pretty hard to dress for concealed carry.

I'd very likely carry open to Wal Mart once or twice a week.:)

Majic
June 4, 2004, 03:17 PM
And why does not the NRA with all it's big money and people work to change public opinion in areas like Cali where it is weak?
You can't just throw money at a problem and hope it goes away. A much better and cheaper solution is for those who live in open carry areas to just carry openly. In time the population would get used to the sight and not pay it any mind. The problem today is too many people are abiding to what the soccer moms want. As long as we bow to their wishes they have already won.
Exactly why should we rearrange our wardrobe, put up with the discomforts and expense required for concealment just to provide them with a peace of mind? Since when did their pursuit of happiness supersede ours.

bogie
June 4, 2004, 03:24 PM
Actually not sure myself about the status of "open carry = brandishing," but if you wanna try it in St. Louis City or County, you'd better be prepared to have one of the local cops try to shove a glock through your eardrum...

FWIW, I also have concerns about the availability of police uniforms, hats, etc., via mail order, etc... Any bozo can dress up and parade around... Face it - Many of us have met "navy seels," and other similar types. They make me nervous.

odysseus
June 4, 2004, 03:56 PM
You can't just throw money at a problem and hope it goes away.

While I understand and agree in the main premise of that, I beg to differ in this case. Ask anyone who has to run for office or sell an idea to the public. It takes capital to utilize the methods in which the large populace absorbs content. Radio, print, TV ads, and websites especially cost money. Grass roots helps locally and is required - but you need to campaign to the people to be heard. At this point the unintiated are better armed to describe and talk why we shouldn't have arms than why we should.

I remember those "I'm the NRA" ads, and while those are good to a degree, they failed to really encapsulate the issues and understanding that are needed to fight the false fears and misguided prejudices the gun grabbing types believe and are "educating" to their own.

Where then is the money going?

Treylis
June 4, 2004, 08:21 PM
I have often been asked why I carry a Leatherman tool on my belt each and every day. The funny thing is I am only asked this after I have started using it. (usually to fix/adjust something that belongs to someone else.) I just smile and say, "I carry it because you never know when you might need a screwdriver... like right now."

I've had the exact same thing happen, and it always causes a sharp stabbing pain right behind the eyes--for heaven's sake, why on earth would you ask me a question like that WHILE I'M USING IT?

mrstang01
June 5, 2004, 07:38 AM
And I'll weigh in on this with my standard answer. [Rant mode] We need to quit pacifying the sheep, let them get scared, let them call the cops if they need to. Handle it profesionally if the cops show up, and explain to them that it is perfectly legal to open carry. If the cops get enough nuisance calls, they can explain to the sheep.

We get nothing when we compromise with the antis. We only lose our rights. Look at this thread, we have gun owners saying, "Ah shucks, let's just conceal". We give up our rights by not exercising them, and then whine about it.

This is America after all.
[/Rant mode]

sendec
June 5, 2004, 08:42 AM
No one (to the best of my knowledge) has wandered into a Luby's or a McDonald's or a school with a Leatherman tool and started randomly fixing things. I operate under the assumption that people in general are armed, at least discreetly. However, if I am seated in my booth enjoying a tasty bun o'grease and a person walks in dressed like a Straight Edger, openly carrying a firearm, should I applaud or alert?

If I am out running fenceline, open carry makes perfect sense. If I am at B&N enjoying a latte' and Baudelaire I am not so sure.

Zach S
June 5, 2004, 09:14 AM
Face it - Many of us have met "navy seels," and other similar types. They make me nervous.
"There I was, knee-deep in brass..."

Sorry, couldnt resist...

munk
June 5, 2004, 09:48 AM
I don't understand all of the original post for this thread. The writer states he was told any one with a concealed weapons permit could carry openly unless it were a bar or other prohibited place. So could anyone in Montana- permit or not.

I don't understand why the Police were called.

I don't understand how the writer decided the young man was 'high and tight'


munk

Don't Tread
June 5, 2004, 09:50 AM
"High and Tight"- haircut, typical of the Military and LEO

munk
June 5, 2004, 09:59 AM
Gotcha. Still wonder about being told concealed carry permitees could carry openly- when everyone in the State not prohibited by law can too.


There's a couple interesting things about Montana- it's coat country- so it is not considered 'concealed' if you got cold and buttoned your coat. Not quite sure if that's just for the woods or the City too.
Also thought you could keep a loaded gun in the glove box and not have it considered concealed.

Still don't know why poster called police.



munk

SemperFi83
June 5, 2004, 10:13 AM
Ain't America beautiful?

munk
June 5, 2004, 10:37 AM
She is beautiful, and would only be made more so if more weapons were carried openly.



munk

CB900F
June 5, 2004, 11:59 AM
Munk;

I didn't call the police, I called the sheriff's dept. No, it's not the same thing. It is the Sheriff's dept. that issues the CCW permits in Montana. I did not, as you seem to think, call to report the person. I called, on a later day, to get a clarification on the situation from the horses mouth, as it were.

I found out that the City of Great Falls does not have a ordinance against open carry. When I first got my permit here, under a different Sheriff, I was led to believe that such an ordinance did exist. Therefore, when I saw the open carry, I was under the impression that it quite possibly was illegal. Under those circumstances, it was reasonable to assume that an LEO/carrier confrontation might happen while I was there.

900F

Generic
June 5, 2004, 02:36 PM
We need a 'National Open Carry Day'.

Everywhere it is legal those of us who normally carry concealed go open. It'd be fun. Give you a chance to buy a new holster. Hallmark could make up some greeting cards for it.

Don't Tread
June 5, 2004, 03:32 PM
We need to get open Carry here in Florida, and then push for Vermont type Gun Laws, considering we already have reciprocity it might be possible

munk
June 6, 2004, 10:06 AM
Sounds reasonable, 900, sorry to misunderstand.

ARe you new to Montana and the Western Rockies states?

I've only been in Montana for 6 years, though I've got several in other western states. One of the first thing refugees from the City do in Wyoming and Idaho and Montana is apply for a concealed carry permit.

Montana's laws are so reasonable, I never found the need to do so.



munk

CB900F
June 6, 2004, 03:12 PM
Munk;

No, lifelong northern rockies resident. Most of it in Wyoming though.

900F

munk
June 7, 2004, 08:05 PM
900;
- I lived 2 and a half years outside Big Horn.

I once called the BATF in Billings to clear up a question I had about firearms. I'd just spent about an hour reading the regulations. The Office told me to hold, while they located the officer most knowledgable about firearms. He and I talked, and I became aware I knew more about the regs than he did. Well, the question was about the foolish point system with so called 'assault' weapons. I don't remember it, but that overall section is confusing. I hear different interpretations all the time.

I've heard different interpretations of various local, State, and Fed firearms regulations in all the different States I've lived in. I remember in Calif a Forest Ranger warned me I could not carry a sidearm in the local wilderness area. His boss finally called me personally to confirm what I already knew- that I could.

So someone here in Montana told me a woman could carry in her purse and it is not considered concealed, a gun in the glove box is not concealed, and a gun under the coat out of doors not concealed. I'd have to personally verify all of this to believe it 100%

So let me say I'm sorry again if I jumped to conclusions about what you were doing. I should have known better. This is a confusing world- and why not, with men writing the rules?


munk

Nickotym
June 8, 2004, 11:01 AM
I have never understood those who carry concealed that are surprised when they see someone carrying open. They are doing no more than you are, excersing their right, but yet you have to carefully watch them.

We should all think this way. Remember, we should base opinions about people by what they do not just what they look like.

Edited to correct spelling.

ScottsGT
June 8, 2004, 11:50 AM
Carrying open in a holster, no problem

Carrying open tucked behind a waistband, AKA "Mexican carry", my alarms would go off. If not because of the "gangbanger" look, but the unsafe handling of firearms.

I have a photo of a guy at a Soccer game, yes I was a "Soccer Dad" but not with the attitude that goes with it, with a small auto in his rear pocket footprinting like you wouldn't believe. New camera, 300mm lens and standing behind him about 30 ft. Had to have that photo!
This was right after SC passed the CWP law, but it was not in effect yet. He did have a really big dog on a leash. All I could think of was that he carried it incase the leash broke and the dog went after a kid. With a dog that big, no one in their right mind, or not in their right mind, is going after a guy with that animal tied to him. :what:

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