I guess I messed up my first car jacking


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duckfoot
May 26, 2004, 07:59 PM
After a very long day down at Durham City Popo Station, I am now free to post the events that happened to me late Tuesday night at the NorthGate Mall, in Durham NC.

After I picked up a bracelet at Durham Jewelers for my wife’s birthday, I headed back to my car at the far end of the east parking lot. After approaching from the back and getting in I see a piece of paper taped to my back window. So I turned the car off and got out but as soon as I did, the hair on the back of my neck when strait, when I realized that I didn’t see any paper when I got in. Only one other time have I ever had that feeling, was when I pulled over to help a lady on a NC back road after a day of hunting, and that didn’t go to smooth either. Anyway, head on a swivel left, right, six, movement to my 4 o clock, turn, short squat guy, and a tall shinny guy + pipe advancing quickly from around the front of the car, backstep, draw, off safety, issued verbal warning, fellows withdraw. All of this happened faster than you could read that pervious line.

Since I don’t carry a cell phone I drove around to another mall entrance and called the Popo. As per job description, Popo filled out report, asked why I had a gun, and other remarks and happenings that I don’t care to share, and was taken to the local substation, to see if I could ID the would be Robin hoods.:confused: Come to find out that there is a was rash of car jackings all over Durham with the same MO but my was the first in a few months. Mark gets into car, sees taped paper on back window, mark gets out and leaves keys in car with car running. Mark gets thumped from behind, and car is driven away. Well at least the desk sergeant gave me a “good to go” before I went in, but then I was grilled about why I thought I had to pull my gun.:fire: I was there all night.:banghead: Six years of anger management paid off last night and this morning at that Police Station. Oh, and don’t ask me where my gun is either.:rolleyes:


It’s all right I‘m not mad 1 one thousand 2 one thousand………., I got another. I also have my life and my car:neener:

Duck

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Stebalo
May 26, 2004, 08:02 PM
Can I ask when you'll get it back?

abdrdude
May 26, 2004, 08:11 PM
I'm glad that you WERE well armed. To me, the police asking "why are you armed" is a No Brainer.

Greg L
May 26, 2004, 08:14 PM
I've heard of this method being used elsewhere also. The best thing to do (against human nature I know) is to drive away & then look at the paper.

WTH is up with the police questioning why you had a gun? It sounds like it saved you from at least a broken skull :cuss: .

Brian Maffei
May 26, 2004, 08:17 PM
tall shinny guy + pipe advancing...I was grilled about why I thought I had to pull my gun.

They have to ask?:scrutiny: Would they have pulled their gun?

Anyway, glad you're ok...scary just reading it.

gunsmith
May 26, 2004, 08:17 PM
"I will disarm officer if, you follow me and my kin around 24/7 and take a bullet mean for me at the next carjacking"

If you have a CCW,how is it they can confiscate your gun?

spartacus2002
May 26, 2004, 08:29 PM
OK, I'm slow, but do you mean the po-po actually confiscated your pistol??

wintermute76
May 26, 2004, 08:34 PM
Glad you're ok. Hope everything goes smooth and you get your handgun back in short order.

gggman
May 26, 2004, 08:49 PM
You didn't fire a shot, and they confiscate your weapon??????
What gives with that?:confused: :scrutiny:
You do have a carry permit, right? What gives them the right to take your weapon away?:cuss: :banghead:
Glad you're OK. Raise some h**l about that weapon confiscation!!!

possenti
May 26, 2004, 08:50 PM
I have to ask...

Did they keep it? Do you have a CCW?

I don't tell this story much, but ...

I used to work across the river in Ohio (pre-CCW). Early one dark morning, a 'minority youth' approached me leaving a BP station after I just bought a pack of smokes with a 20. With his hands in his puffy coat pockets, he demanded "the rest of the money in your pocket." When he got within arm's reach, I landed a hard, low roundhouse kick into his left knee, and followed up with a hard right hook to his jaw. Seemed like it spun him around 3 times before he hit the pavement with a splat. Out cold.

I looked around the empty lot. No one around. The clerk inside had his back to the window. I got to my truck quickly and left. I started asking myself - "who do I call - who do I tell?" Before I got to work, I decided to totally keep my mouth shut. The famous Cincinnati riots had just happened a few months before this incident. I was scared that if the perp was badly injured - or worse - all hell would break loose again. I may - or may not - have had my KY-licensed CCW pistol in my truck at the time also.

For a few days, I explained my swollen pinky knuckle as an injury I sustained at work - while I nervously watched the local news for a story about a "Choir Boy Assaulted in Gas Station Parking Lot while asking for Donations for his Church." Never heard anything, but I think the young man will think twice before he tries that crap again.

Not to second guess your situation, but you should have left the cops out of it - IMHO.

Waitone
May 26, 2004, 09:03 PM
Did Dur-ham's finest indicate why they evidently thought it was in appropriate for you to pull your legal CCH?

4v50 Gary
May 26, 2004, 09:06 PM
Why were you armed? Because sarge wasn't there to stop the bad man who carried a pipe.:rolleyes:

JohnKSa
May 26, 2004, 09:10 PM
Not to second guess your situation, but you should have left the cops out of it - IMHO.
I tend to agree. You had everything going your way up until you called the cops.

Interesting thought:

Two guys threaten you with a pipe to try to steal your car. If you had retreated instead of confronting them, they would probably have left you alone (based on their M.O.) and taken the car. You could have claimed the car on insurance and gotten reimbursed.

Another group of people confined you, took your gun and antagonized you all night. They will probably want to antagonize you a bit more before they finally leave you alone. Worst of all, you can't ask your insurance company to replace the gun.

Tell me again who the good guys are...

The Real Hawkeye
May 26, 2004, 09:22 PM
Sounds like he was almost victimized by one group of thugs, then actually victimized by another group. :fire:

The Real Hawkeye
May 26, 2004, 09:26 PM
Oh, by the way, you handled the situation exceptionally well, IMHO. Calling the popo is a natural reflex for decent folks, but lately it is becoming almost as dangerous to your rights as surrendering to the criminals.

Devonai
May 26, 2004, 09:26 PM
Don't call the cops???

"My buddy and I were just out for a walk when some crazy guy pulled a gun on us! His license plates were..."

No matter how adversarial the police may be, you've ALWAYS got to call when self-defense is your defense.

Rabbit9
May 26, 2004, 09:50 PM
short squat guy, and a tall shinny guy + pipe advancing quickly from around the front of the car, backstep, draw, off safety .....Two quick double-taps. Then call police to report assault with a deadly weapon, was in fear for my life, and acted in self defense to prevent bodily injury.

Two less scumbags.:evil:

I don't question what you did, but have you ever heard of the 7-yard rule for knife attacks. A pipe is most certainly a deadly weapon, and the front of your car is much less than seven yards.

Trebor
May 26, 2004, 10:28 PM
I agree that you need to call the cops. If you don't, and the bad guys do, now YOUR the bad guy.

Your SECOND call should be to your lawyer. Give him a very brief description and tell him what police jurisdiction you are in. Depending on circumstances, you may want him to meet you at the police station as well.

iamhistory
May 26, 2004, 10:31 PM
sounds to me like YOU were treated like the carjacker in this situation. I'd be damned if I would have sat there all night being interogated about why I thought I had to draw.

And it sounds like their investigation is going oh so well since they are out there breaking this case that has been going on for months now.......................oh I forgot, they were wasting time hassling a law abiding citizen.

Good job in the heat of the moment, for what it's worth.

Treylis
May 26, 2004, 10:41 PM
They have to ask? Would they have pulled their gun?

I would have definitely asked them: "So.. if a man is coming at you with a pipe and intends to swing it, wouldn't you pull your own gun?"

Absolutely ridiculous.

Zedicus
May 26, 2004, 10:43 PM
I think you should get a Lawer dude...

Samurai Penguin
May 26, 2004, 11:27 PM
Cop: "Why do you have a gun?"

Duckfoot: "Just in case someone wishes to commit a crime against me...you know, like a carjacking or something. Boy, what a paranoid freak I am!"

What boggles my mind is that my tax dollars are going to support crap like this. NC LEO's, either figure out who the good guys vs. bad guys are, or go sell insurance somewhere, OK? You're an embarrassment to the REAL cops who know what their job is. :fire: :cuss: :banghead:

How 'boutcha, LawDog...would your department pull this kind of nonsense?

Standing Wolf
May 26, 2004, 11:39 PM
Not to second guess your situation, but you should have left the cops out of it - IMHO.

Sorry, but that's wrong. The right thing to do is always the right thing to do. It's not always the easy thing to do, but it's still the right thing to do.

Duckfoot, you did very well. I'm sorry the cops confiscated your gun—and hope you'll take them to court for serious dollars if you don't get it back PDQ.

magsnubby
May 26, 2004, 11:47 PM
Hmmmmm......are you sure you weren't in Kallyfornya? That's much pretty par for the course here.

Zundfolge
May 26, 2004, 11:50 PM
Boy I'm glad I don't let my mouth get me in trouble like when I was a younan.

When I was younger and dumber I probably would have responded like so:


[cop] "Why do you have a gun?"

[me] "so you're stupid as well as ugly? Gimme a pipe and I'll come at you but you have to keep your gun in its holster and lets see if you'll wish you had it in hand when I'm done bashing your skull in ... ya f-ing moron! ... I wan't my tax money back j***a**!"


Today I would have just given him this look :scrutiny:


Glad you got away with your health and your car ... too bad about your gun ... hope they don't "lose" it and it ends up in some cop's private collection, or like what happened to a buddy of mine, they don't carve the case number into the frame and slide with a dull chisel.

Psssniper
May 26, 2004, 11:52 PM
POlice take your means of self defense?
A great reason to have a couple back up guns at home eh?
Glad your alright

Valkman
May 26, 2004, 11:54 PM
As per job description, Popo filled out report, asked why I had a gun, and other remarks and happenings that I don’t care to share

I'd like to hear the whole story - did something happen in these "other remarks and happenings" to make them want to give you a hard time?
I don't understand why you'd get such a grilling and get your gun taken away when you didn't fire a shot.

Reno
May 26, 2004, 11:56 PM
Sorry, but that's wrong. The right thing to do is always the right thing to do. It's not always the easy thing to do, but it's still the right thing to do. How is calling a bunch of crime janitors who do nothing but give him the 9th degree for defending himself, and who wish to disarm him "the right thing?"

All the police did here is make the streets safer for the only people they're obligated to protect, criminals.

Plinkerton
May 27, 2004, 12:07 AM
That's not cool at all. I think N.W.A. had it right when they said, "Fu*k the Police"

Zundfolge
May 27, 2004, 12:40 AM
How is calling a bunch of crime janitors who do nothing but give him the 9th degree for defending himself, and who wish to disarm him "the right thing?"

Its the "right thing" for 2 reasons.

1) Because its the law, and we are the law abiding ones (even if the cops aren't).

2) Because if YOU don't get to the cops first you run the risk of THEM going to the cops with a "Me and my cousin Bobby was headed to choir practice when we cut across the mall parking lot and this crazy man jumped out of his car and waved a pistol in the air saying he was going to kill us and rape Bobby (made poor little Bobby wet himself and cry) then he jumped in his car and sped away, almost running us down ... and here's the bad man's license plate number!" story.

Then you get met at home by more of these badged schmucks who aren't in the mood to hear your BS "self defense" story.

cracked butt
May 27, 2004, 03:42 AM
Me wonders how you will now defend yourself if the attackers find out where you live and decide to pay you a visit. I would ask this question to the police right now.

dleong
May 27, 2004, 08:11 AM
It has been said before but is probably worth repeating: the police are not your friend.

However, I will concur that not reporting the attempted carjacking would have gotten you into hotter soup if those ******bags had spoken to the police about the confrontation.

Such is the sad state of law enforecement in this country today.

DL

hammer4nc
May 27, 2004, 08:25 AM
duckfoot, I hope you can post a followup. I thought you handled the situation in a measured and restrained way. The lesson I take from this is...after filing the police report, when it looked like an interrogation was imminent...."shutup and call a lawyer". In this case, I'd have offered to set up an appointment at my lawyers office when its mutually convenient. You'd have gotten home sooner.

...crime janitors(lol), I'll have to remember that one.

The Real Hawkeye
May 27, 2004, 08:41 AM
Were you "under arrest" when you were being questioned? How did they justify taking your means of protection from you?

SC_shooter
May 27, 2004, 08:44 AM
They were at the front of your car? That's little too close for me. I have to agree with Rabbit9.

The Durham/Chapel Hill area is Berkeley East. So it doesn't surprise me that they kept your gun.

Kharn
May 27, 2004, 08:54 AM
I'm a little confused with the paper, was it sticking to your window when you returned to your car, or did it appear on the window between when you got into the vehicle and when you looked back?

It sounds like you definitely did the right things in what could have escalated into a shoot/no-shoot situation.

Kharn

hillbilly
May 27, 2004, 08:55 AM
After you made your report and they wanted to grill you, you should have asked the following:

"Sir, am I under arrest?


If they say yes, say you want your lawyer and shut up.

If they say no, the politely inform them that since you are not under arrest that you are leaving the police station and quit answering their damn questions.

So much of what the police do depends on the fact that you, the citizen, feel intimidated by them.

That's why so many folks consent to roadside warrantless searches.

They don't have to ask nicely. They can just say, "I'm gonna hafta look in your car."

But they can't without probable cause unless you say, "Uh, okay officer, sure."

Be polite, but show them no mercy. Know your rights. If you aren't under arrest, there is nothing they can do to keep you at the police station.

They are COUNTING on you being shook up and intimidated.

hillbilly

GSB
May 27, 2004, 09:04 AM
I'm a little surprised at people suggesting that the cops should not have been called. I can't speak for other states, but where I am, if you are a CCW holder and you clear leather, you have to call the cops. Given the likelihood of witnesses in this case, not calling the cops in my state would at the very least probably resulted in a loss of permit.

The Real Hawkeye
May 27, 2004, 09:16 AM
I'm a little surprised at people suggesting that the cops should not have been called. I can't speak for other states, but where I am, if you are a CCW holder and you clear leather, you have to call the cops. Given the likelihood of witnesses in this case, not calling the cops in my state would at the very least probably resulted in a loss of permit.You can alway deny that you cleared leather. You could say, if caught later, that you merely gripped the handle, and they ran away, so you saw no legal reason to report it. You are not required to report attempted crimes, or even actual crimes.

45 Carry
May 27, 2004, 09:58 AM
At work we got an email of a car jack scheme in Kansas City about paper on a car's back windo as in the original post. We were told to be aware. A week later another email claiming the warning was about an urban legend. Do these types of car jacks really occur?

ny32182
May 27, 2004, 10:01 AM
Wow... glad it turned out "alright". I'd also be interested to know if they took your gun because of a lack of a CCW or something like that. Remind me to always carry in Durham.

ctdonath
May 27, 2004, 10:33 AM
You can alway deny that you cleared leather.NEVER LIE TO POLICE OR JUDGES.
They deal with liars all the time, and will know when you are one.
Lie, and you will get hugely screwed over. You get promptly jailed for perjury, and your attacker suddenly & officially becomes the victim, whereby you serve serious time for assault etc.

You have the right to present evidence in your defense, and you have the right to shut up. Use those rights.

Master Blaster
May 27, 2004, 10:34 AM
Here in Delaware we actually have the paper on the back window carjack scheme posted on the bulletin board in the lunch room.

I havent heard of a case where that actually happened until reading it here.

As far as the car jackers calling the police on you: there is no hysterical laughing face here, but NFW that would happen.

Zippy the pin head with a arrest record as long as my leg, who has carjacked several others or plans to, is going to CALL the POLICE and defacto turn himself IN.

HARDY HAR HAR.:scrutiny:

ScottS
May 27, 2004, 10:36 AM
Its the "right thing" for 2 reasons.

1) Because its the law, and we are the law abiding ones (even if the cops aren't).Hmm...What law would that be?2) Because if YOU don't get to the cops first you run the risk of THEM going to the cops with a "Me and my cousin Bobby was headed to choir practice when we cut across the mall parking lot and this crazy man jumped out of his car and waved a pistol in the air saying he was going to kill us and rape Bobby (made poor little Bobby wet himself and cry) then he jumped in his car and sped away, almost running us down ... and here's the bad man's license plate number!" story. Does that happen a lot? Do bad guys/gang-bangers, who have no idea if you did or didn't report the intended crime, show up at the police station to place themselves at the scene of the attempted crime?

"Why, thanks, Julio. We had no idea where to look for the two skels who tried to carjack this guy. Thanks for coming in. Now, about those other carjackings...."

Somehow, I don't see this as a common occurance, unless it really was "Me and my cousin Bobby...headed to choir practice."

Scott

The Real Hawkeye
May 27, 2004, 10:46 AM
Somehow, I don't see this as a common occurance, unless it really was "Me and my cousin Bobby...headed to choir practice."Your reasoning is good, and is in fact what occurred to me also when I read that line about the bad guy actually calling the police. These guys generally have long rap sheets, and don't want to bring themselves to the attention of the authorities. The only time not reporting an incident would be a real mistake would be in the case of road rage of another driver forced you to pull the gun to warn him and his crow bar off. In that case, the guy is much less likely to have a criminal record, and you really need to be the first to report to the police. Hardened street thugs don't generally call the police, because they assume correctly that the polce will not likely believe their story, and secondly because they are usually wanted for other crimes.

armoredman
May 27, 2004, 10:57 AM
Nope - that DOES happen - two otherwise honest citizens did 2-3 for ag assault in AZ for NOT reporting, and the BG did. One was on a freeway, where a moron played bumper tag for a few hours, front and back, screaming threats and invectiem until GG displayed, (in a vertical manner) his sidearm. BG pulled off, and called DPS. GG did NOT call, so the Bgs version put him inside.
Another in the mall - two homeless beggars advance on a man and wife, demanding money they refuse, and one procliams he has a butcher knife in his belt and he's going to cut up his wife in the parking lot while he watches. GG sweeps coat, grips pistol, and BGs scurry away. GG does NOT report, BG does, GG gets ag assault. Yes, Virginia, putting hand on pistol is ag assault.
You did the right thing, sir, but I would makie as big a stink as possible about being disarmed for no reason! go to the papers, TV, radio, Rush Limbaugh, anyone who will help broadcast the local PD wants disarmed servants.

GSB
May 27, 2004, 11:00 AM
You can alway deny that you cleared leather.

And then when the police come around and interview the nosy biddy who lives across the street, who you didn't know saw the whole thing, you have now officially lied to the police during a police investigation. That's not going to look really good if someone in a bad mood wants to push a legal or civil case against you.

J Miller
May 27, 2004, 11:01 AM
Hmmmm, lets see. You pulled your gun to defend yourself against two thieves who would have taken your car, wallet, gun, and quite possibly split your scull and killed you.

You called the cops, they detained you, intimedated you, insinuated you are the criminal, stole your gun, and then turned you out in the cold.

Now lets review. You defended yourself against two armed thugs, then were victimized by the armed thugs you called to report the incident too.

Seems to me all you did was change the venue of the assult and robery from the parking lot to the police station.

You will have your lawyer all over this today.............right?


Joe

DigMe
May 27, 2004, 11:02 AM
duckfoot,

Snopes lists this as undetermined on whether it's true or not:

http://www.snopes.com/crime/warnings/carjack.asp

so if you can provide them with some evidence you might want to email them with it for the sake of other people who might dismiss the method as urban legend after reading Snopes' comments on it.

brad cook

Stebalo
May 27, 2004, 11:06 AM
How big is this piece of paper? Is it so big that it will obstruct your view backing out or driving? Is that why people feel compelled to leave their car to remove it?

BeLikeTrey
May 27, 2004, 11:19 AM
South Carolina had Charlie Condon for AG. Chalie "invade a home, invite a bullet" Condon, that is. This doesn't fly here. LEO are incredibly respectful of CWP holders here. Complain and get a lawyer NOW! If this stuff goes unchecked it'll bring the PRK to the East Coast! I don't know about the rest of you but I don't feel like the PRK is far enough away now. I certainly don't want to live next door.

Mornard
May 27, 2004, 11:20 AM
possenti -

You Rock! That is the totally correct procedure. Drop 'em and then get the hell out of there. So maybe he'll think twice next time...

1911Tuner
May 27, 2004, 11:35 AM
Well...Hell's Belles John! Glad you're okay. They didn't get my Norinco...did they?:p

Coffee's on! Come on up.

Tuner

Nightfall
May 27, 2004, 11:52 AM
Glad to hear your encounter with the carjackers turned out as well as could be hoped for. Sorry your encounter with the thugs didn't go so well.

ScottS
May 27, 2004, 11:52 AM
Nope - that DOES happen - two otherwise honest citizens did 2-3 for ag assault in AZ for NOT reporting, and the BG did. One was on a freeway, where a moron played bumper tag for a few hours, front and back, screaming threats and invectiem until GG displayed, (in a vertical manner) his sidearm. BG pulled off, and called DPS. GG did NOT call, so the Bgs version put him inside.Not quite the same as two carjackers in a parking lot at night. Even if I believe the guy had cause to draw/display (which the facts as presented here to not support), chances are your "BG" had neither rapsheet nor outstanding warrants, which your average carjacking thug is likely to....two homeless beggars advance on a man and wife, demanding money they refuse, and one procliams he has a butcher knife in his belt and he's going to cut up his wife in the parking lot while he watches. GG sweeps coat, grips pistol, and BGs scurry away. GG does NOT report, BG does, GG gets ag assault. Yes, Virginia, putting hand on pistol is ag assault.I'd be looking for the Paul Harvey "Rest of the Story." AZ is not exactly the pro-criminal cesspool somewhere like NY/NJ/MA is. There's more to this story than who reported it and who didn't.

Scott

sturmruger
May 27, 2004, 12:04 PM
I think it would be interesting to know why the police kept you at the station for that long. Did they really just keep asking about why you had a gun for like 4 hours!!! That is crazy!!

I think you handled everything very well. I will have to remember that trick so it doesn't ever happen to me.

Zundfolge
May 27, 2004, 12:04 PM
Hmm...What law would that be?
Well here in Colorado, failure to report a felony or attempted felony is in itself a crime ... in addition, in many states one condition of your CCW license is that you call the police if you ever have to "clear leather".

Years ago while living in Wichita Kansas I and a friend where robbed at gunpoint ... we had a long talk with the officer who responded and among other things (when it started to look to us like the cops weren't going to be able to do anything about it) my friend said something to the effect of "well why did we call you then?" to which the officer responded "not reporting would be a crime",

Does that happen a lot? Do bad guys/gang-bangers, who have no idea if you did or didn't report the intended crime, show up at the police station to place themselves at the scene of the attempted crime?
I'm sure it doesn't happen often .... I for one don't want to be the "exception that proves the rule" though.

Also, if you have justification to draw, why would you think the police are going to turn on you?

duckfoot did the right thing by going to the police ... just because the police didn't do right by him doesn't make it any less "right" for him to have gone to the police.

If nothing else, contacting the police and giving them a good description of your attackers will help them to catch the guys thus saving the next poor unarmed slob from having his or her head bashed in by them.

ScottS
May 27, 2004, 12:12 PM
... in addition, in many states one condition of your CCW license is that you call the police if you ever have to "clear leather".Can you back this statement up with any relevant statute, anywhere? Not the Colo "failure to report a felony," but the statement "...in many states..."

Scott

BTW, I have no opinion on whether he did the right thing by calling the police. I'm interested in what's no-s--- required by black-letter law.

Justin
May 27, 2004, 12:30 PM
Just a little reminder from your neighborhood GD moderator. Right or wrong, advocating breaking the law on this forum is most assuredly not an example of taking the high road.

It's also bad advice, legally speaking.

The Real Hawkeye
May 27, 2004, 12:35 PM
Justin, my impression is that the discussion regards what the law is, not advocating the breaking of it. My understanding is that no person is obliged to report a crime or an attempted crime. Someone here is suggesting that in their state, they have a law that mandates it. That's what's being discussed.

SRYnidan
May 27, 2004, 12:36 PM
Just a quick note here on the do you call the cops issue. First and foremost crooks particularly gang bangers are dumb.
I had a friend here in Las Vegas who was accosted at a traffic light by four young minority males, one of whom actually opened the passenger door of his pickup truck. The second time he told the guy to “GET THE F**K OUT OF THE TRUCK” he put his hand in his fanny pack with his hand on his KelTec P11. The guy said “you pulled a gun on me and I am going to call the cops” which he did. First words 911 call recorded were “GET THE F**K OUT OF THE TRUCK”. The COPS arrive took both statements and asked the young man what the gun looked like. “He said it was a revolver” the cop looks in the bag and says wrong guess. Meanwhile the gang unit calls and says they want to talk to these four.

By the way took him a week to get his CCW and pistol back even after the one guy threatened to find his house in front of the cops. This would have been a bad plan as the fellow in question believes that “happiness is something warm and belt fed”

Thumper
May 27, 2004, 01:13 PM
Duckfoot,

Please call back and give us the rest of the story.

thumbody
May 27, 2004, 02:42 PM
When they asked why you pulled your gun you should have said because when I looked for you to protect me YOU weren't there so I had to do YOUR job.

Doug Add
May 27, 2004, 02:43 PM
Sorry to hear about your troubles. That parking lot is the main reason I no longer go to Northgate Mall. I never felt safe there, always expected something like you described to happen at any moment.

I do hope you get quick resolution to the illegal seizure of your handgun. Was it the substation right around the back of the mall?

twoblink
May 27, 2004, 02:58 PM
Glad to hear you're ok. Hope you get your gun back, and a lawyer..

Why did you draw?

http://www.a-human-right.com/introduction.html

Go ahead and have them read this...

dshimm
May 27, 2004, 03:11 PM
Durham has certainly changed since I grew up there. Hope you get your gun back.

flatrock
May 27, 2004, 04:53 PM
As far as the car jackers calling the police on you: there is no hysterical laughing face here, but NFW that would happen.

It's not likely the guy with the pipe will call the police, but it's quite possible that the soccer mom that saw you holding the gun, but didn't see the guy had a pipe, will dial 911 on her cell phone awfully fast.

If you just leave the scene, you're going to jail if she gives them your license plate number and a description.

If you have to draw your gun, call the police.

dog3
May 27, 2004, 05:02 PM
There really is only one answer that I can think of,

that's "Why Not?"

Don't explain, don't rise to any bait. Make them explain why
you "shouldn't". If they even have the balls to go there, point
out their weapons, on and off duty, point out the 2nd if needed.

It's a really stupid question. Really stupid.

Other answers could be, "Why, I never thought about it.
Do you carry a gun? Doesn't everyone carry a gun? I
thought everyone did. What kind of fool doesn't carry a gun?
You'd have to a moron not to carry a gun. Only a complete
and total idiot would, , , , why are you asking such a stupid
question? It's like asking if I wear underwear or brush my teeth.
What has it got to do with anything? I'm sure most people
carry guns. If only everyone did, we wouldn't have the crime
we do. There oughtta be a law, , , ,

Bob F.
May 27, 2004, 06:05 PM
A couple other considerations: in some (most) other jurisdictions the cops might actually be interested in catching the real BG's.

The real BG's might be a little hesitant to try that again; no, not likely. BUT,
maybe soccer mom will remember hearing this and just pull out fast when she sees the paper on her window running over the SOB's! Yeah!

regardless, you really gotta call, quick!

First thing 911 heard...good reason to program 911 into speed dial. What was that number again?

Stay safe.
Bob

Reno
May 27, 2004, 06:15 PM
Wow, I'm surprised that it's a crime to not report in CO. Going to jail for not doing anything, ridiculous. And here I thought this state was freedom-minded.

greyhound
May 27, 2004, 06:24 PM
, asked why I had a gun,


Good grief, I thought this stuff didn't happen down south (i.e. even with the "Berkely of the East" label its still much more gun friendly than CA, NJ, MD, etc?)

Zundfolge
May 27, 2004, 06:26 PM
Here's the Colorado Statute:

18-8-115. Duty to report a crime - liability for disclosure.
Statute text

It is the duty of every corporation or person who has reasonable grounds to believe that a crime has been committed to report promptly the suspected crime to law enforcement authorities. Notwithstanding any other provision of the law to the contrary, a corporation or person may disclose information concerning a suspected crime to other persons or corporations for the purpose of giving notice of the possibility that other such criminal conduct may be attempted which may affect the persons or corporations notified. When acting in good faith, such corporation or person shall be immune from any civil liability for such reporting or disclosure. This duty shall exist notwithstanding any other provision of the law to the contrary; except that this section shall not require disclosure of any communication privileged by law.

Autolite
May 27, 2004, 06:41 PM
Why is it that I often find myself differentiating between what's 'right' and what's 'required by law'???

The Real Hawkeye
May 27, 2004, 07:57 PM
Other answers could be, "Why, I never thought about it.
Do you carry a gun? Doesn't everyone carry a gun? I
thought everyone did. What kind of fool doesn't carry a gun?
You'd have to a moron not to carry a gun. Only a complete
and total idiot would, , , , why are you asking such a stupid
question? It's like asking if I wear underwear or brush my teeth.
What has it got to do with anything? I'm sure most people
carry guns. If only everyone did, we wouldn't have the crime
we do. There oughtta be a law, , , ,That's great. Another one I've used before is, "Don't you read the newspaper?"

P.S. That Colorado law in just plain unAmerican.

4 eyed six shooter
May 27, 2004, 08:41 PM
You did the right thing pulling on those two slimbags and reporting it to the PD. Once they started giving you a bad time, you should have called a lawyer. It's been some years since I was on the PD, but we always loved it when an honest citizen took out a BG. One less idiot for us to deal with. It used to be that some officers would help an honest citizen who shot a BG get their stories right before the dicks got there to investigate. Times have changed, and so have the attitudes of many officers on the force. Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six!
Good shooting, John K

WhiteKnight
May 27, 2004, 09:23 PM
.....Two quick double-taps. Then call police to report assault with a deadly weapon, was in fear for my life, and acted in self defense to prevent bodily injury.


Amen. IMHO I can't imagine a more justifiable shooting.

Grey54956
May 27, 2004, 09:45 PM
The Po-Po take your gun so the next time it happens, you will be a victim, and they can investigate, thus maintaining job security for Officer McDonut.

ScottS
May 27, 2004, 10:54 PM
FWIW, from The New England Journal of International and Comparative Law:

"Colorado attempted to create a statutory duty to report a crime when there exist reasonable grounds to believe a crime has been committed. The effect of the statute was undermined, however, by U.S. v. Zimmerman, (943 F.2d 1204, 1213 (10th Cir. 1991)) in which the United States District Court ruled that the Colorado law did not create an affirmative duty on the part of witnesses to report crimes....Thus, the Colorado statute merely eliminates liability for disclosure or reporting of information. The Zimmerman decision effectively took away the “bite” of the Colorado statute’s mandatory reporting requirement, which demonstrates that careful wording of a statute is essential to its
survival."

I'm still waiting for some documentation for this outrageous statement: "in many states one condition of your CCW license is that you call the police if you ever have to "clear leather"."

Scott

Dex Sinister
May 27, 2004, 11:40 PM
Here's the Colorado Statute: quote: 18-8-115. Duty to report a crime - liability for disclosure. Statute text

Just out of curiosity, is there a statute penalty for failing to do so?

Dex http://home.pacbell.net/ajoule/firedevil_smiley.gif

twency
May 28, 2004, 12:47 AM
There really is only one answer that I can think of, that's "Why Not?"

Don't explain, don't rise to any bait. Make them explain why you "shouldn't".

Well, if he's carrying concealed, and he presents a weapon, that's considered "brandishing" in most jurisdictions, I believe, which can get you in serious trouble unless there's a real or perceived threat of serious bodily injury to oneself or another.

"I pulled my gun on him just 'cause I felt like it" cannot possibly be considered a serious defense in most places.

On the other hand, "I pulled my gun on him cause I thought he was going to beat my head to a bloody pulp with that big pipe" would generally be considered a pretty good reason by most reasonable LEOs.

-twency

_____________
Praying the closest I ever get to this sort of situation is Monday morning quarterbacking.
edited for spelling

gggman
May 28, 2004, 07:43 AM
Is it just me, or is anyone else beginning to have doubts about this attempted carjacking ever really happening?
Why hasn't duckfoot responded to this thread?:scrutiny:

Jeepman
May 28, 2004, 07:51 AM
Is it just me, or is anyone else beginning to have doubts about this attempted carjacking ever really happening?

I was just thinking the same thing.

uh ohh... the crowd is starting to turn, it could get ugly

ny32182
May 28, 2004, 08:11 AM
I was wondering who was going to step up and say it first. :uhoh:

1911Tuner
May 28, 2004, 08:12 AM
John (duckfoot) has a job that sometimes takes him out of town for up to a week at a time. He may be unavailable just now. I've spent time with him
here at home and down on the range. I haven't picked up on anything that would label him as a BS artist. Very straightforward, stand-up kinda guy.

Just FWIW...

Cheers all!

Tuner

Zach S
May 28, 2004, 09:04 AM
Yeah, jobs really do cut into social lives.

Then again maybe he got a lawyer that advised him to shut up.

gggman
May 28, 2004, 11:18 AM
John (duckfoot) has a job that sometimes takes him out of town for up to a week at a time. He may be unavailable just now. I've spent time with him

If this is the reason for his silence, and the attack did indeed take place, then I offer my appologies for my skepticism, and eagerly await his update to this story.:o

Thumper
May 28, 2004, 01:09 PM
Wouldn't be real hard to find out.

The Durham Police Dept North Gate Mall Substation # is:

(919) 560-4582

If the investigation is closed, they can probably explain why they behaved so poorly.

MR.G
May 28, 2004, 04:58 PM

Michigander
May 28, 2004, 05:56 PM
One thing I haven't seen pointed out thus far:

If you lie to the police or a judge about what happened, and even if there were no eye-witnesses, the gas station or other facility nearby may have had a security camera in operation that may have recorded the entire incident.

Whether or not the investigation would go so far as to warrant the investigation of surrounding serveillance video tapes might be another matter.

But in this day and age, in public, near any place of business, especially gas station/convenience stores, I think it would be best to assume that your actions were recorded.

Now, about lying about what happened.... :uhoh:

GSB
May 28, 2004, 08:17 PM
I'm still waiting for some documentation for this outrageous statement: "in many states one condition of your CCW license is that you call the police if you ever have to "clear leather"."

After reviewing the Florida statutes, it appears that the CCW instructor who made this statement to me as part of his curriculum was mistaken. He likely misinterpreted the nature of the statute. According to the 2003 edition of Florida Firearms Law, Use and Ownership, "the display of a a deadly weapon, without its discharge, by an ordinary citizen will normally be considered the use of a 'deadly weapon', but it will only be considered the use of 'non-deadly force'." I believe that for some reason he interpreted that as something that required the filing of a report, but there is in fact no statute in the code that I have found to back his assertion on that.

So I apologize to anyone I misinformed with that post, as I was misinformed myself -- excepting that I do not extend any apologies to individuals who by disposition or upbringing are for whatever reason incapable of correcting another person's error in a civil and polite manner. Those people I simply add to the ignore list, as I am getting too old to bother with such unfortunate specimens of social inelegance. It only further coarsens public discourse and there is little need to converse with such people as they inevitably cheapen whatever actual value their opinions have by being bellicose and obnoxious.

albanian
May 28, 2004, 09:54 PM
duckfoot,
It sounds like you did well to keep your cool. I only hope that if something like this ever happens to me, I can react as well as you did. It must have been very hard not to lose your temper at the cops after the adrenaline rush that you must have been feeling.

You sound like a decent guy and even though you were were screwed with by the cops, I think it was the right thing to do. Maybe now that they know there are people out there that might shoot these thugs, they might do something before one of these poor dears gets hurt.:rolleyes:

You did good, don't let the pipe carrying thugs or the thugs with night sticks get you down.

The Real Hawkeye
May 28, 2004, 09:59 PM
"For every fatal shooting, there were roughly three non-fatal shootings. And, folks, this is unacceptable in America. It's just unacceptable. And we're going to do something about it."Yeah, like mandatory target practice for every American. :D

ScottS
May 28, 2004, 10:35 PM
After reviewing the Florida statutes, it appears that the CCW instructor who made this statement to me as part of his curriculum was mistaken. Huh? The statement that quote referred to was made by someone else on the forum. It was a broad statement that asserted that "in many states..." a condition of your CCW was some obligation to report if you drew your weapon, as if it's there in the statutes along with training and background check. "Lisencee also agrees to call the Police if he ever clears Kydex." It was a broad, sweeping assertion, and it deserved to be backed up with it's source. Do people accept just anything someone tells them?So I apologize to anyone I misinformed with that post, as I was misinformed myself -- excepting that I do not extend any apologies to individuals who by disposition or upbringing blah, blah, blah...This discourse still seems pretty civil to me. In any rational discussion, if someone asserts something as fact, they should be prepared to be asked to back it up. That's a bad thing...how?

Scott

pax
May 29, 2004, 12:54 PM
Moderator Note

This discourse has stayed surprisingly civil, despite plenty of opportunity to wildly veer off the high road.

Thanks to everyone who's remembered to think twice, post once. Keep up the good work.

pax

Valkman
May 29, 2004, 04:41 PM
I sure wish duckfoot could comment further. I have no doubt that it happened, and I have no doubt that pulling his gun was the right thing to do. What I don't like is not hearing the whole story.

I hope this also teaches me that in this situation it seems that there comes a point when what the police are doing turns from investigating to harrassing, and there is nothing to keep us from leaving. Then I'd seek an attorney to get my gun back. duckfoot did not say if he had a CCW so I hope he was carrying legally.

The Real Hawkeye
May 29, 2004, 06:57 PM
I guess if he didn't have a CCW license I could understand why the cops kept his gun, even if I don't agree, on principle, with the requrement to have a CCW license. I would like to know if he had one or not, however.

Bob F.
May 31, 2004, 12:11 AM
In my wallet: 1) driver's lic.
2) CCW lic
3) attorney's business card
4) professional lic, etc

Stay safe.
Bob

ScottS
May 31, 2004, 08:13 AM
Post overcome by events! :)

Scott

glock 21
May 31, 2004, 09:21 AM
:what:
simply double the perps, in the right place so there's no living witnesses.
Then, call the crime janitors sounding panically stressed. When they arrive, be bleeding from a wound, made ny something near one of the bodies, with its prints only, all over it. A Pipe, knife, broke wine bottle, it won't matter, just have your blood & their prints on it.
Be careful what you say, make it clear your shooting was a last resort to defend your life, not your car, but your life, since the thugs were trying to kill, maime or cripple you physically. Stick to your story. Take it to your grave, never tell anyone. that was anyone, what really happened or it'll come back to haunt you.
Maybe you'll save the next victim from becoming one, sort of a masked hero that no one knows about cept you & the great Creator that created those 2 thugs and gave the "free Will" they used up when they tried going against your Free Will & weapon of choice.
Way to go, just handled it a little incorrectly by todays preverse standards.
:banghead:

Baba Louie
May 31, 2004, 09:25 AM
Bob F. Did your computer go full auto on ya? :D

Interestingly enough, I had my first weird encounter with an attempted Carjack this Sat morning only three blocks from my house here in LV. 8:10 AM I was headed to a jobsite meeting (and running late, naturally) had my fanny pack w/ me, driver side window down, just lit a cigarette, elbow had "locked" the door, all others locked, going 20+ mph in a 25 zone approaching an elementary school double crosswalk, no other cars in the immediate vicinity at the moment...

Two young latinos in the second crosswalk walking from my right to my left... so I slowed down. They also slowed down, one continuing walking past the centerline of the street and stopped, the second paused directly in my path... eye contact made with both, fanny pack (which had been on passenger seat) somehow found it's way into my lap, little hairs on back of neck began crawling. I waved the guy in front of me to cross, he waved back stop, (I was creeping very slowly) fanny pack opened, right hand on glock still in lap, first guy said "We need your car" left the crosswalk and walked up to the door as I approached the second crosswalk.

I said "Tell him to move NOW" and swerved left a little over centerline (no oncoming traffic, no one in rear mirror behind me) making #1 back up, gave the little Hyundai some gas as #2 jumped out of the way and drove on, watching in my rear view mirror as they flipped me off.

20 - 25 seconds max.

Hmmm, methinks they was up to no good. Went to jobsite meeting and explained encounter to client who happens to be a Deputy Attorney General for Nevada. Was told it's a really common method of either getting a car or getting a slight injury and insurance award if #2 is bumped as you try to get away. He called someone at Metro for me, gave them my tag#, location, descriptions, yada and we moved on to talk about his house framing, etc.

This I was told by my client, they're in the crosswalk and have the right-of-way only if they remain a pedestrian crossing the street. As soon as they leave the white striped zone or display intent other than crossing the street (loitering, creating a traffic hazard in the street, attempted car jack, etc) they can be found in violation of something that allows police action.

At no time did anyone see the glock. They each had a potential witness to corrobarate story, I did not. You could say I left the scene of a crime (vehicle traveling through pedestrian laden crosswalk) and had I called Metro myself I would have had to explain it all to them and would have been late for my meeting (I'm sure client would've understood). Had I displayed the gun... who knows? Moot point. I had it if I needed it.

Imagine you were an unarmed 16 year old kid or a 40 year old woman in my place (I live with two such who also drive).

Please keep your doors locked, eyes on the road, in condition yellow, off the cell phone, both hands free (I chucked the just lit up cigarette as #1 approached my door). I say all this because my G/F does NOT lock her door (nor do her boys) she is in perpetual condition white or whatever is below that and oftentimes when she gets in the car she fires up a smoke AND the cell phone at the same time. I HATE having her drive and insist I drive whenever we go somewhere in the same car. We discussed this incident at length, and as I said this occured three blocks from our house in a residential zone (for those of you in LV, between Spring Mountain and Flamingo on Torrey Pines at the Katie intersection).

And yet, She thinks me paranoid when we go shopping because I always rubberneck the parking lot when we park going in, I hate parking next to vans or big SUV's, I take too long getting out of the car as I look around and never park close enough to the door for her and when we come out with a full shopping cart and transfer the load into the car, I stop and look around before I stick my head in the trunk or back seat.

It's just a Hyundai...

Now, if the guy (#1) had said "We need directions" or "we need some help" who knows? Their hands were empty at the moment. My right hand was not.

Bob F.
May 31, 2004, 09:56 AM
Went I first checked in this AM I wonderd why I was being fussed at?!?!?
4 card don't seem like much. Went to pg 5 and then back---oops, unintentional double tap!!

Glock 21: NEVER tamper w/ evidence.

Back in the day, the formula for a perfect crime was do the deed then call EMS; they'd trample the scene so nothing could be determined. That was only part joking. Most places they're but better in these modern times, most places.

BL:scary, good job!

Stay safe.
Bob

1911Tuner
May 31, 2004, 10:01 AM
Howdy Glock 21, and welcome to The High Road.

First off, know that if a crime scene is doctored or prepped with a throwdown or a self-inflicted wound, it'll take the detectives about 30 minutes to figure it out, and about an hour to pick your story apart.
The advice to shoot'em, move'em and put a knife in their hand is
bad advice. Get caught in one lie, and your word is trashed from that
point on in the eyes of the investigating officer.

I'll let the mod who has jurisdiction on this forum make the call on whether to edit or delete that post.


Tuner

Baba Louie
May 31, 2004, 10:43 AM
BL:scary, good job! Bob F. Wasn't scary at the moment, just weird and happened so fast with the really weird part being the hair standing up and how the glock ended up in my hand without me even thinking about it and WHAT were these idiots doing standing in the crosswalk? Ya know? It was only after I saw them flipping me off in my rear view mirror that I really realized what they MIGHT have been attempting and analyzed after-the-fact, the "We need your car" comment.
What WAS funny was my hand shaking a bit when I re-lit up another cigarette once I got onto Flamingo and realized my ears were hot.

Fanny pack? Got to go. Easy to sling around my Man-Purse (bright orange) just not fast enough in a pinch (I wasn't wearing it... more of a carry device)

The whole thing was a weird learning experience.

Glock21, welcome (I think). I've re-read your post a couple of times now. duckfoot didn't need to doubletap anyone. I think he handled it quite well without resorting to allowing them to cause any harm to his person or putting them down. You know, discretion... valor... moving on with life... that whole thing.
The real crux of his story that sux is how his weapon was retained by the popo and the direction of, or manner in which he was questioned and the amount of time it took to answer 30 minutes (if that) worth of Q/A.

1911Tuner
May 31, 2004, 11:40 AM
Bob said:

Went I first checked in this AM I wonderd why I was being fussed at?!?!?

:D I went back and deleted your triple-tap. Now it's a one-shot deal.

Cheers!

Tuner

Valkman
May 31, 2004, 12:05 PM
Baba Louie, where was that? I haven't had anything like that happen, yet, but at least the wife is great about locking the doors. Being aware is another matter though...

I hadn't heard of that approach to get a car, so thanks for informing us. I worry more about parking lots, although as I say nothing has happened yet. One night right after getting my CCW I had gotten in the truck and was doing something when the wife said "Look!" - this guy had approached my open door to within 10 feet and I never saw him. He asked for change and my tone of saying no made him immediately back off. I was not happy to have let him approach like that and try not to let it happen again.

Fed168
June 1, 2004, 08:31 PM
Based on what I could (not) find about this incident, I don't think it happened.

kernal_panic
June 1, 2004, 08:51 PM
i say he did good. he can always buy another one.

Baba Louie
June 2, 2004, 01:16 AM
Valkman,
On Torrey Pines halfway between Flamingo and Spring Mountain at Katie (Spring Valley Township area in the SW qtr of town between Jones and Rainbow).
Yes. Do keep your doors locked, please.
The last time anything even remotely resembling something like this happened to me was over behind Cashman Field after we left a Stars night game several years back, stopped at the light at Stewart (I was second in line at the stoplight) when a dirty, old but nimble, homeless type dude came running up to my driver side window, put both hands on the (open) window sill and as he began to stick his head in the window demanding some money in a loud voice with major league halitosis, saw my KaBar about 2" from his face as my wife screamed and I yelled "GET AWAY".
Pretty funny now, looking back on it, thinking about her screaming, me shouting, him trying to go forward and backward at the same time to get away from that cheap piece of steel in my left hand, me wishing the idiotic light would change to green (I've since started leaving plenty of "Cab Sneak In" space between the car in front of me's back bumper and my front bumper).
Since these bozo's never do this kind of stuff in front of a cop, I guess that means you're on yer own. Deal with it best as you're able.

Josey
June 2, 2004, 02:08 AM
I have a sinking feeling of dread. Does anybody else wonder if duckfoot is in custody?:what:

1911Tuner
June 2, 2004, 03:32 AM
Hi guys...based on evidence from a Durham PD employee, this one
needs to close.

Tuner

1911Tuner
June 4, 2004, 10:08 AM
Hi again guys,

After much discussion, the mods have decided to replace this one and reopen it temporarily to give a Durham police officer a chance to rebut
the original post. I would ask that everyone refrain from replying to it
until the officer has had his say.

And now we wait.

Thanks,

Tuner

Fed168
June 4, 2004, 04:59 PM
Folks, this did not happen in Durham, based on the information I have not found. Since this was close to home, I wanted to follow up on it, and we have no word and there has been no paperwork on this or any other attempted carjackings of this nature in Durham. It certainly would have been talked about at work- not a word mentioned. Think about it for a moment, something like this would be on the news, in the papers, passed word of mouth no matter what city you live in. To those members who live in the area- conduct your normal business and everyday life as usual.

Life is difficult enough without someone making baseless accusations. How about we all take a breath and think before posting and start name calling. Law enforcement has friends and detractors- some legit, some who just have a grudge against police just because they are police. If you have a legit gripe, fine, we'll hear it. Otherwise, some opinions are left best unsaid. Some opinions may get a person in trouble, so again, be careful on what you read.

Let me end this on a thought: I am not trying to flame or hurt anyone on this board. Nor am I getting in anyone's face. I want to express truth to a falsehood, simple as that.

abrahamsmith
June 4, 2004, 06:11 PM
Fed168,

Thanks for your input. I gather you have more information than the rest of us regarding such incidents, and I find it rather suspicious that the original poster hasn't responded yet.

I know nothing about this case at all, and I don't mean to comment on its validity or lack thereof.


However, as a resident of Durham, I want to add that I wouldn't be surprised AT ALL if such incidents were never reported on the news here.

Since moving here from Wisconsin last summer, I've noticed that, essentially every night, the news here is filled with hit-and-runs, multiple shootings, and the occasional home invasion -- all in Durham or Wake county. There was an article about having beat cops ride the city busses because it would cut down on the regular (they claimed) shootings which take place on busses....

I can see how a few minor assaults and car thefts simply wouldn't gather any attention by the news crews.

Whether it's faulty reporting or not, crime in Durham is higher than I could have even imagined before I moved here.

Heck, the very first night I was here apartment-hunting, in a reasonably safe looking part of town (southern Woodcroft), my locked car was broken into and some valuable electronics were stolen.



So, whether or not the original poster's claims were valid, the criminal incident described *could have* easily happened here, and the incident described with the police tears to the deepest fears of all of us -- that in trying to defend our lives and our rights, we will be thwarted at every turn.


As someone who will apply for a NC CHL later this summer, I sincerely hope you represent the police in this area and not those who duckfoot described.

Thanks for your service,
Abe

1911Tuner
June 4, 2004, 06:11 PM
This one is now off the air.

Thanks,
Tuner

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