Granby, CO under seige


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jimpeel
June 4, 2004, 07:54 PM
A man in an armor plated D-9 Caterpillar bulldozer is tearing down the town. He has damaged several buildings including the 7-11, library, city hall, and flattened the newspaper office to the ground.

He is armed and has been shooting at police officers and propane tanks in the area. It is said that he may be using a machinegun.

The police have been unable to stop him. I called the Sheriff's office and told them to find someone with a .50 cal Barrett. She said that they had tried that to no avail. I told her to have them shoot only at the treads as if they can break one, they will stop him. I also told here that a very effective weapon is a Molotov Coctail. She didn't know what that is so I explained it to her and told her it would stop a military tank.

They finally have a feed from a helicopter and he got stuck in a building. They don't know any status other than that.

I sure hope thuis guy doesn't have a legal machinegun registered to him. We won't hear the end of it.

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jimpeel
June 4, 2004, 08:09 PM
The SWAT team is crawling all over the thing which is stuck in a building. He blew the radiator and it died.

They just emptied a canister of pepper spray into one of the gunports.

Michigander
June 4, 2004, 08:10 PM
http://images.viacomlocalnetworks.com/images_sizedimage_156185205/xl

Story (http://news4colorado.com/topstories/local_story_156173524.html)

Apparently the tracks are covered.

Zak Smith
June 4, 2004, 08:15 PM
How can nobody in Granby have a .50?! We had, what, like 30 of them at the RMFCSA in Cheyenne Wells a couple weeks ago!

Tear gas into the ports sounds like an excellent plan.

-z

mattf7184
June 4, 2004, 08:23 PM
Another reason citizens should have .50s, LAWs, Grenades,Apaches, AT4s :evil:

Zak Smith
June 4, 2004, 08:25 PM
Javelin.

-z

Third_Rail
June 4, 2004, 08:41 PM
I find it very hard to believe noone has so much as a 30-06 loaded with AP rounds....


This is beyond belief.

RED-DOG 40
June 4, 2004, 08:46 PM
Bulldozer and machine gun, hmmm.......:cool:

jimpeel
June 4, 2004, 09:31 PM
http://images.viacomlocalnetworks.com/images_sizedimage_156192209/xlTracks are exposed.

He has welded himself inside the cab of this thing but they say he is alive. They are concerned that the thing could be booby-trapped.

CZ-100
June 4, 2004, 09:37 PM
Time to call in an A-10 :neener:

jimpeel
June 4, 2004, 09:39 PM
Time to call in an A-10 They already had one of those stolen and flown into a mountain in CO. The four 250# bombs are still missing.

Treylis
June 4, 2004, 09:48 PM
They already had one of those stolen and flown into a mountain in CO. The four 250# bombs are still missing.

Whoa, when did that happen?

Jim March
June 4, 2004, 09:49 PM
Huh.

I wondered when we'd hear from Rick Stanley again.

:neener:











(Or rather: God I hope not!)

jimpeel
June 4, 2004, 09:50 PM
The governor is on his way to Granby to get some face time. I can hardly wait to see what type of stupid legislation comes of this.

Michigander
June 4, 2004, 09:53 PM
I can hardly wait to see what type of stupid legislation comes of this.

Yeah, next thing you know, you'll be required to have a special lisence to operate a bulldozer! :scrutiny:

Sindawe
June 4, 2004, 09:57 PM
BAN BULLDOZERS!!!! ITS FOR THE CHILDREN!!!! :neener:

The A-10 thing was around the time of Timothy McVay's trail, which IIRC was here in Denver. Several folks I worked with at the time expeted the A-10 to come screaming out of the hills all guns blazing, aiming for the court house (this before the wreckage was found).

I can't wait to hear the back story on this chap.

jimpeel
June 4, 2004, 10:02 PM
Just a few years ago, this guy was in the trailing aircraft in a four aircraft formation flying to a practice bomb run. Somewhere, he peeled off for parts unknown and disappeared. They later found the wreckage of the aircraft, and the body, but they never found the four 250# bombs he was carrying.

He started from Davis-Monthan in AZ and ended up in CO.

The story: http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/4339/usatoday.html

The Conspiracy theory: http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/4339/

Story after story: http://dc.yahoo.com/external/wjla/feature/19970421.html

jimpeel
June 4, 2004, 10:08 PM
The A-10 thing was around the time of Timothy McVay's trail, which IIRC was here in Denver.I called the FBI and asked them if they had yet considered that the G-8 summit (I believe they were the G-7 at that time) was to be held in Denver in two weeks. The guy said "No, I don't think so."

I told him that this thing was fully armed, had four 250# bombs and ammo that could penetrate several blocks of buildings. I also told him that even if they had full air support waiting that the chances of stopping this thing would be nearly impossible; but that is how it is whan an aircraft is billed as "By the time you see it, you're dead." I also told him that it is a STOL aircraft that could easily land on any runway that could handle a crop duster and could be in a hanger anywhere in CO.

He said he would pass the information but he didn't sound real comfortable.

capt_happypants
June 4, 2004, 10:31 PM
Sheesh, they could've called Fort Carson and borrowed a few Apaches.

Cat D-5 versus a burst of 30 mike-mike? That'll leave a mark. If that doesn't work, laser-designate his butt and plant a Hellfire on top of him.

jimpeel
June 4, 2004, 10:33 PM
Two words:

Posse Comitatus

P95Carry
June 4, 2004, 10:45 PM
*** is/was goin thru this guy's mind!? He has to have totally flipped and lost it .. tho it seems had planned this for some time judging by armor mod's etc.

No way will he live .... he'll either stay put and starve, or be smoked/gassed ..... or someone will come up with something like a shaped charge to plant on the side. Few yards of detcord would quickly get this thing finalized.

Michigander
June 4, 2004, 10:51 PM
*** is/was goin thru this guy's mind!? He has to have totally flipped and lost it .. tho it seems had planned this for some time judging by armor mod's etc.

It's the black helicopters he's waiting for.

See, he must have been wearing his tin-foil hat way too tight.

I fasten my very loosely. :cool:

Hawkmoon
June 4, 2004, 10:59 PM
I can hardly wait to see what type of stupid legislation comes of this.
Stand by for the 2005 ABB (Assault Bulldozer Ban).

In addition to banning Caterpillar D-9s outright, all semi-automatic bulldozers with a blade width greater than {fill in blank} will be banned if also equipped with any of the following options:

* Armor plating
* Gun ports
* Fixed or removeable armaments
* Magazines with a capacity greater than 10 rounds.
* Laser guidance systems.
* Night vision devices

capt_happypants
June 4, 2004, 10:59 PM
Yeah, I know.

Still, the video would be awesome.

Third_Rail
June 4, 2004, 11:08 PM
Is it me or do they seem to be drawing this out? Even steel plating isn't any match for what a 14 year old can come up with using household chemicals.

This is ridiculous.... SWAT teams can't do it, the police can't do it, so he's sitting there? Great, that'll work. :rolleyes:

Seriously though, a LSC isn't that hard to make and they should've finished with this by now.

Michigander
June 4, 2004, 11:10 PM
Where's Janet Reno when you need her? :uhoh:

Langenator
June 4, 2004, 11:13 PM
Sheesh, they could've called Fort Carson and borrowed a few Apaches.

IIRC, the boys from Ft Carson are playing in the Sandbox.

capt_happypants
June 4, 2004, 11:18 PM
I think 3rd ACR has returned to the States.

Is this thing still going on at 8:23pm MST? I can call one of my buds up and have him bring his Armalite AR-50.

anapex
June 4, 2004, 11:31 PM
Are we sure this isn't just some taping for a new run of A-team shows run amok? :D

jimpeel
June 4, 2004, 11:37 PM
Apparently, this thing is still going on and the guy had a door to get in, through the top, but then welded it shut from the inside. He is determined that he is going to die in that 'dozer. He shoulda armored the radiator better because that's what finally stopped him. He had a shroud around the engine to protect it, though.

capt_happypants
June 4, 2004, 11:48 PM
At this point, dump several hundred gallons of 91 octane unleaded around the damn thing, and set it off with a flare. If he wants to go out, oblige him.

capt_"would make a terrible hostage negotiator"_happypants

jimpeel - details, details. What I want to know, if he had protected the engine block, what was he going to do? Drive away slowly?

"Oh no! He's slowly getting away!"

Firethorn
June 5, 2004, 01:37 AM
Well, at this point the guy is "Contained". After Ruby Ridge, Waco, and other similar situations, the police do have to try to take this guy alive, seeing as how he 'went out of his way not to harm anybody'.

The problem: They know he has a gun (even though he hasn't shot anybody yet). He may have a bomb. Anybody who can do this to a dozer can build bombs, easy. It's time to bring in negotiators and talk the guy out.

Delmar
June 5, 2004, 02:02 AM
Where's Janet Reno when you need her?

What the heck would Janet do-grab the dozer blade and shake it death?

sevenpoint62mm
June 5, 2004, 02:15 AM
Can you say Thermite!

Preacherman
June 5, 2004, 02:15 AM
What the heck would Janet do-grab the dozer blade and shake it death?
Well, she could do a strip-tease and scare him to death...

:what: :uhoh: :scrutiny:

Malone LaVeigh
June 5, 2004, 02:26 AM
On CNN they're reporting he had a beef with local authorities and businesses over zoning. I'm surprised some of our anti-gov types aren't rushing off to reinforce the guy...

jimpeel
June 5, 2004, 02:31 AM
jimpeel - details, details. What I want to know, if he had protected the engine block, what was he going to do? Drive away slowly?

"Oh no! He's slowly getting away!"Silly boy! Getting away was never an option. He armored the engine to keep them from disabling it before he could effect maximum damage. Even a standard hunting round could do that and he didn't want them spoiling his fun before he had gained satisfaction.

The thing was that he was out at the cement plant, out in the open, with nothing to catch fire and they could have hit him with Molotov cocktails then. Once he was back in town, that option disappeared.

jimpeel
June 5, 2004, 02:38 AM
Can you say Thermite!I am sure that they likely didn't have a whole lot of thermite 100 miles from nowhere at 8,000 feet on the Continental Divide.

[map attached]

sevenpoint62mm
June 5, 2004, 02:50 AM
I am sure that they likely didn't have a whole lot of thermite 100 miles from nowhere at 8,000 feet on the Continental Divide.

IIRC Themite is legal and used in welding, Hell this guy probably used alot making that,.. um,. thing. Also need I point out they are less then an hour from NORAD if my measurements are correct. They got lots of goodies there, but they're a no show so far. ::banghead:

Sven
June 5, 2004, 03:51 AM
Check THIS out:

During Heemeyer's nightmarish attack, he shot repeatedly at a number of huge propane tanks at a distributorship with a .50-caliber weapon, authorities said. The apparent attempt to trigger a massive explosion failed.

Ha! The 50 failed to live up to the drivers plans. Wonder if he used a tracer or explosive load?

http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/state/article/0,1299,DRMN_21_2939053,00.html

Warren
June 5, 2004, 04:37 AM
I was concerned until I heard he was targeting politicians.

In all likelihood they deserved it.

cracked butt
June 5, 2004, 07:17 AM
I was concerned until I heard he was targeting politicians.

I wonder what the man's story was. To spend so much time planning out an attack on a few individuals in which he would not escape from, I wonder if he was pushed too far or if the bureaucrats in his town were overly corrupt.

Or, he might be a total whackjob.



I kind of see this in my neighbor. He has been at loggerheads with the village and homeowners association in the past of minor issues. Now both are finding lots of problems with his property- he put up an 'illegal' clotheline, he had the wrong kind of decorations around his garden, he had to pour a slab to park his fishing boat on during the summer, but has gotten threatening letters for parking a utility trailer there for a few days. He has a heavy work truck he parks in his driveway, not against any code or rule, but he is harrassed anyhow. If there were anyone who should complain it should be me or the neighbor on the other side of him as we are the only ones who can see any of these things without physically walking onto any of the 3 properties, but we don't have a problem with what he does with his property. It just amounts to the fact that the officials in our town are petty a-holes, that if you do anything to chalenge them on anything, you get on their sh-list. You can't vote them out, as they are related to half of the old residents of town who also prefer the town to be nazi-land. He's had enough and decided he is moving to a different town.

Matt1911
June 5, 2004, 09:09 AM
Foxnews just reported "driver found dead" gee,big surprise

GigaBuist
June 5, 2004, 09:56 AM
Some reports are saying that shots were ringing out once per second, like a "machine gun".

Some say he has a 50-caliber weapon. They don't specifically say 50BMG though.

If this guy's pumping out 50BMG rounds at a rate of once per second I'd be pretty amazed.

And, somewhere they should be footage of that muzzle brake sticking outside the steel armor that he was surrounded with. 50BMG inside a little metal box? No way, not happening.

Third_Rail
June 5, 2004, 10:30 AM
I highly doubt it's a fifty, and if it is, say bye to THAT right. :fire:

And as for having no thermite, are you telling me there's no steel wool, vinegar, aluminum blocks, and a grinder in that town? That and an hour is all you need to make about ~2kg of thermite, more than enough to put a hole in the steel, even if it takes a minute.

Azrael256
June 5, 2004, 11:58 AM
Are we quite sure this is a D9? It looks a bit short in the wheelbase, and I thought D9's had that three sprocket triangular looking track layout.

Art Eatman
June 5, 2004, 12:56 PM
http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/state/article/0,1299,DRMN_21_2939053,00.html

Excerpts from the Rocky Mountain News article:

"Over the years, Heemeyer has tangled with Patrick Brower, editor and publisher of Sky-Hi News, over issues including zoning and gambling.

"It was frightening," said Brower. "I tell you, I was scared for my wife and my son because we live only a fourth of a mile from the newspaper office, and Marv knows where we live. I thought he would drive over there next.

"This is just domestic terrorism is what it is."

Granby officials said Heemeyer blamed them for the demise of his muffler shop — which he attributed to the result of the zoning dispute. Most of his targeted building are believed to have been owned by, or associated with, people he believed had wrong him.

Heemeyer had discussed plans for his apocalyptic assault over beer and dinner with several acquaintances in Grand Lake late one afternoon in January.

One of those at the table was Bonnie Brown, owner of a Grand Lake business.

"He was talking about the sale of his business, and how he had to pay too much money for it, and how the town was involved in undercutting him, and would charge him excessive taxes and all these other fees that they had not assessed to other people," said Brown.

***********

Hey, city council! Be careful about raising taxes! :)

In my fondest dreams, at the next city council meeting:

From a questioner the audience, "So you agree this was terrorism?" "Yes." And you agree this was a 'one man riot'?" "And this meeting is being recorded?" "Yes."

"Thank you. In the event of terrorism and riot, your insurance coverage does not apply. Have a nice day."

Art

TallPine
June 5, 2004, 12:57 PM
I thought D9's had that three sprocket triangular looking track layout.
Yeah, the new ones do, but they made them for about 30 years before that.

7.62FullMetalJacket
June 5, 2004, 01:20 PM
One man, over the edge, with intent, can do just about anything. There is no way to prevent it or stop it.

The Real Hawkeye
June 5, 2004, 01:39 PM
They will find a .50 caliber BMG rifle in there, whether it was there before the ATF arrived or not. ;)

Third_Rail
June 5, 2004, 01:43 PM
Probably an evil black semi-auto .50...

I hope the ATF and other alphabet soup agencies realize that Barrett is serious when he says that if they ban his rifles from sale to the public he won't sell to the .gov either.

The Real Hawkeye
June 5, 2004, 01:49 PM
I hope the ATF and other alphabet soup agencies realize that Barrett is serious when he says that if they ban his rifles from sale to the public he won't sell to the .gov either.I know. That guy's great. If I had the money, I'd buy one just to support him.

Of course the Federal Government could just nationalize his facility, for national security reasons. :D The Patriot Act must somehow authorize that.

Third_Rail
June 5, 2004, 01:54 PM
Luckily, we are talking about a RIFLE COMPANY, and not some teddybear factory. Barrett wouldn't budge on selling to .gov or LEO if they banned his rifles.

I am seriously considering buying one to help him out...... money is tight and plans fell through more than once now. Maybe I should set my heart on the $3k one instead of the $7k one? :D

jimpeel
June 5, 2004, 03:59 PM
I wonder what the reaction of city officials would be if posters with this picture

http://images.viacomlocalnetworks.com/images_sizedimage_156192209/xl

with the words "Remember Marvin Heemeyer" started appearing pasted to the front doors of city halls throughout America.

The Real Hawkeye
June 5, 2004, 04:01 PM
Jim, that's priceless. :D

P95Carry
June 5, 2004, 04:21 PM
Hmmm ....... :p

http://www.bedford.net/design/img_assd/heemeyer2.jpg

Jim March
June 5, 2004, 05:32 PM
Dude, there's no apostraphy in "brothers" :).

Normally I wouldn't comment but you're working on a poster :D.

At least it wasn't Rick :p.

And if that loon really did shoot up a propane tank farm with a 50BMG and all he had to show for it was:

http://www.equalccw.com/marvin-icon.gif

...then I'm DEFINATELY going to be mentioning that in the upcoming California hearing on the 50cal ban.

(Sidenote: just found out yesterday that the bill to ban them (AB50) was "back from the dead". SIGH. More later today on that.)

P95Carry
June 5, 2004, 05:35 PM
Oops .. Jim you are more observant that I ... well spotted - it will be corrected!:p

Mgraff
June 5, 2004, 06:17 PM
Similar thing happened in Gillette Wyo. about 1980 IIRC. Had a pile of bumper stickers around here at the time. Said something like....

WHEN D9Ss ARE OUTLAWED...
I'LL BE AN OUTLAW!

I had forgotten about the stickers until I was in Candle, AK in 1990...there was one hanging in a miner's shop/ home. Takes all kinds I guess. crazy people and crawlers and an entertaining combo...eh.

Firethorn
June 5, 2004, 06:52 PM
I'd sentence him to parole...

In Iraq helping to uparmor our vehicles there. Obviously he already has the skills!

cracked butt
June 5, 2004, 07:02 PM
It was frightening," said Brower. "I tell you, I was scared for my wife and my son because we live only a fourth of a mile from the newspaper office, and Marv knows where we live. I thought he would drive over there next.


Sounds like a typical blissninny.

I wonder what would have happened if a THR member were there and interviewed.

"The wife and I each grabbed an M1 out of the safe along with a dozen or so clips of AP ammo, then decided that we would hang out on the porch until this event was over.:evil:

jimpeel
June 5, 2004, 08:59 PM
Dude, there's no apostraphy in "brothers"That's okay, there's no "a" or "y" in "apostrophe", either. :neener:

AZRickD
June 5, 2004, 09:51 PM
This brings up a popular topic

http://www.libertybookshop.us/images/Carl-Drega-150.jpg

http://www.libertybookshop.us/mall/Carl-Drega-Freedom.htm

jimpeel
June 5, 2004, 11:15 PM
We need to pound on this fact that he had a .50 Cal firearm and that he attempted to blow up the propane tanks -- AND FAILED. The blissninnies always say that they need to ban the .50s because they can be used to attack petroleum refineries and blow them up. This incident belies their fears.

capt_happypants
June 6, 2004, 12:01 AM
Imagine the story if this guy drove into an ARF com / THR shoot.

June 4, 2004
Granby, CO

Bulldozer Rampage Ends In Gunfire

A disgruntled man's attempt to destroy a small town in central Colorado ended abruptly when he drove into a gathering of shooting enthusiasts. Marvin Heemeyer died at the scene when his armor-plated bulldozer was shot thousand of times by members of www.ar-15.com and www.thehighroad.org, two prominent on-line shooting communities.

Investigating officers report that the Caterpillar D-5 "was shot with everything ranging from 22 Long Rifle all the way up to .50 cailber - and we can't explain what caused the massive explosion," said Colorado State Trooper Robert Lisk.

"We saw the bulldozer drive over the berm, so we assumed that it was a reactive target," said THR member capt_happypants. "Some guy on the line yelled out 'Light 'im up!' and all hell broke loose."

When police arrived on-scene, they had to disrupt the crowd that had gathered around the disabled vehicle. "There were all sorts of arguments - some guys were arguing about 9mm vs 45 ACP, others were assessing the damage caused by ARs and AKs, a bunch of people nearly came to blows debating the 1911 versus the Glock," said Trooper Lisk.

Bystanders said that the situation nearly turned into a riot, but the quick deployment of laptaps with wireless access and web browsers brought the crowd under control.

When asked about the explosions, an unnamed member of www.ar15.com responded, "I don't know how that could've happened. Sure, Tannerite is explosive, but I didn't expect a 20-foot crater."

"Next time, we won't tape the charge to a weather balloon full of propane," he added.

P95Carry
June 6, 2004, 12:09 AM
Capt ...... ROTFLMFAO ........ :D :D

Inspired!

The_Antibubba
June 6, 2004, 07:17 AM
Do you know what the real tragedy of this entire event was?


HE DIDN'T ATTEMPT TO LEVEL VAIL, INSTEAD!!!

Yes, it would have long-term repercussions to the latte industry, but still, it'd be worth it.



:evil:

Aikibiker
June 6, 2004, 05:20 PM
According to one of the news articles mentioned on the other THR thread on this located here. (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?threadid=85472&perpage=25&pagenumber=2) A local citizen offered the police use of his .50 BMG and it failed to disable the bulldozer. That might also be a good point for you to make Mr. March.

Publicola
June 6, 2004, 06:13 PM
March,
Nice cheap shots on Stanley. Never let a chance to kick a potential ally slip by, right? Don't worry though - I'm sure none would have had to wonder if you'd have done something so dangerlously outside the system.

Everyone else...

If it were me in that town I'd have hung back for a bit. Sure, the idea of trying to stop a mini-tank with a Garand seems real interesting (I'd have alternated between radiator shots & trying to send one into the gunports) but I would have felt realy guilty if I found out later the guy had some reasons for his rampage that I was sympathetic to.

From what I understand he was ticked off about taxation & zoning regulations that he believes (rightly or wrongly) had a detrimental impact on his livelihood. He seems to have targeted buldings that were owned by people he felt were responsible at least in part for the taxation & zoning laws. He tried to attack cops when they showed up, but cops are government agents like it or not so I can see the reasoning behind treating them as the enemy.

Do I approve of this guy's particular actions? No. Do I understand how someone could get so frustrated as to think something like this is the only option left? Damn right. & so should anyone who's had to pay more than one cent for a permit to build something on their own land, or who struggles to come up with the yearly rent that cities & counties charge you for the privilege of owning your own property.

He didn't persue the best course of action to effect a change or draw attenton to his complaints, but I think only a few people here could not understand his motivations or the frustration he felt when he decided to weld up some steel to a bulldozer.

& I wouldn't worry about mentioning the .50 caliber - I'm positive the brady's & the VPC are already drafting press releases about it. The fact that it didn't blow up anything will be used to justify any attempts to ban certain types of ammo, & the fact that it was used will be harped on much more than its lck of effect when they push for a ban on .50 caliber firearms.

Jefferson wrote about the Whiskey Rebellion when he said that a rebellion every now & then is good for us & one not occuring at least every twenty years or so would be a sign that th public is slipping into lethargy & the death of public liberty wouldn't be far off. He didn't agree with the specifics of the Whiskey Rebellion but said that despite the ignorance involved in their motives that it was better that they acted on the faulty information they had than just to lie there & take it.

This guy with the armored bulldozer isn't as grand a statement to the thoughts Jefferson penned about the Whiskey Rebellion, but I think in principle they're close: when you think the government is doing wrong & workin within the system won't work you have to take some kind of action.

Like I said, I don't agree with the guy's choice of action but knowing his motivation I doubt I'd have stopped him if I was able to do so.

One last thing to ponder - if this guy had not been the aggressor (i.e. the cops attacked him for some reason or another) would y'all still be so eager to help the cops subdue him? Would you have just stood idly by? Or would you have tried to help the guy get away from or stop the cops? If a group of neighborrs hadn't been content throwing insults at the lawmen & had took some sort of action Vicki Weaver might be alive today.

Problem is anytime anything like this happens the guy or guys that the cops are trying to take will have a nice summation by the press that they're the bad guys. Some of the time, perhaps even most of the time this is true. But would anyone here take any kind of risk to help someone out despite an assination-job done on them by the press? If your neighbor whom you know to be a peaceful person & not a violator of any laws was surrounded by the federal police would you just watch like its a sporting event cause the papers said he was a bad person or would you try to help?

I bring this up not because the guy in question needed help (he had an armored bulldozer) or maybe even deserved help, but because the press will usually do as much as they can to paint a nasty picture of anyone who resists unjustified force. It's not something you have to answer here, just something I'd like for you to think about.

TallPine
June 6, 2004, 10:13 PM
A society with bulldozers is a polite society.

:D


Note: Be careful who you PO - he might be a nutcase.

The_Antibubba
June 7, 2004, 12:21 AM
Some of his friends today were saying he was a master welder-he could work anything. They're saying his "tank" was really well thought out.

My guess is, if they do an analysis of the plating, they'll find he'd done his own heat-treating to toughen the armor.

Third_Rail
June 7, 2004, 12:34 AM
Do you think that's a viable solution for longterm SHTF scenarios? :D :D

I couldn't resist.

jimpeel
June 7, 2004, 10:07 AM
He built the armor out of two sheets of 1/2" steel with concrete poured between them. This was a brilliant design as it would absorb anything that was thrown at it and it would resist heating through if Molotov Cocktails were thrown at it as well. But for that radiator, he could have lasted for hours. The tank was full of deisel.

Third_Rail
June 7, 2004, 10:15 AM
Sound to me like we need to get rid of DD restrictions, legally armed citizens could've worked this out right quick with a 30mm....

In all seriousness, though, I hope that lawmakers and city halls will remember this when they're screwing someone over and they know it.

I doubt they will, but one can hope.

armoredman
June 7, 2004, 10:41 AM
Solothurn!:cool:

Roadkill Coyote
June 7, 2004, 02:00 PM
Oh, for god's sake. This is getting ridiculous! This "zoning dispute" wasn't about Heemeyers land. It was about Heemeyer trying to use the zoning process ie; the power of the state, to prevent a neighbor from using his land as the neighbor saw fit. Government interferance didn't push this guy into snapping, the local government sided with the property rights of the neighbor. Think about it! The local government made the pro-freedom choice. Heemeyer wasn't a posterboy for anything but revenge and more psych-meds. :barf:

Third_Rail
June 7, 2004, 05:48 PM
Roadkill, I never said he was right or even sane. What I meant is that lawmakers should think twice about negative laws. Anything that helps them realize that is helpful.

Again, this man was a certified nut case. I just like the idea of lawmakers shuddering and thinking back to it whenever they're about to take rights away! :D

sturmruger
June 7, 2004, 06:52 PM
I been doing allot of research on this story. The first thing to mention is they did shoot at this guy with a .50 BMG. They also mention that he had a .50 browning which leads me to think he had a BMG as well.


I personally think this guy was crazy, but there is a small amount of me that admires this guy for all the thought he put into this. He put so much planning into this that he even put grease on all the parts of the dozer that a man could climb up into. What he did was illegal and wrong. He had to be a little off his rocker in the first place, but the way the town came down on him definetly pushed him over the edge.


Here is the link to the Denver Post article (http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E23827%257E2195601,00.html)


The Denver Post also has few other stories as well.


I was trying to think of a few ideas that might have helped to get him out. If they could have found a slight opening I think I would have tried to fill up the cab with water from a fire hose!! IF he was still alive surely he would have tried to escape drowning.

Zundfolge
June 7, 2004, 07:35 PM
I'm honestly surprised how silent the antis have been after this one.

He had a .50, a couple of "military style assault rifes" and a handgun ... thats the "axis of evil" as far as the antis are concerned but so far none of them have used this story to push their agenda.

sendec
June 7, 2004, 07:50 PM
Praising this guy for his efforts is like applauding the architect of Dachau for its efficiency. "Sympathetic" to his "cause"? It appears his cause was a highly advanced case of premeditated murder.

And we are worried that something like this could result in more restrictions? This guy should'nt have anything more dangerous than a plastic spoon. How many homes and businesses did he ruin? How about sending the money set aside for a Barrett to help rebuild. I still find it amazing that no one (well, at least no one who was'nt a deranged nutball) got hurt.

Firethorn
June 7, 2004, 08:03 PM
Sendec-

Part of the reason we can admire this guy is that he went out of his way not to hurt others. Think about it, he was running around in a homemade tank. With his skills, it would have been just as easy to build a bunch of bombs using the welding supplies that went into the construction of the tank. With proper timing, he could have probably done even more damage, with the exception that killing somebody would have been likely. Instead he makes a tank out of a bulldozer and runs around knocking buildings down. Heck, the guy'll probably get mostly off by pleading insanity.

Premeditated murder? Hardly, it stated right in the article he avoided causing casualties.

BowStreetRunner
June 7, 2004, 08:26 PM
if Roadkill's research is correct, then this guy deserves no respect,
imagine if it were your gas station he plowed through to make this "statement"
BSR

jimpeel
June 7, 2004, 08:45 PM
I was trying to think of a few ideas that might have helped to get him out. If they could have found a slight opening I think I would have tried to fill up the cab with water from a fire hose!! IF he was still alive surely he would have tried to escape drowning.I called the Granby Sheriff's department and told the operator to tell them to shoot the tracks of the vehicle. I told her to tell them to ignore the cab and shoot the tracks.f they could break one, he would be stuck going in circles. She said she would pass that on. Apparently, I didn't call soon enough or she didn't relay the info, or they ran out of .50 BMG (which really means "Big Mother Gun") :D

Water just would have poured out the bottom of the cab and made him uncomfortable; but he went in there on a one way ride to "Glory".

jimpeel
June 7, 2004, 08:51 PM
I'm honestly surprised how silent the antis have been after this one.

He had a .50, a couple of "military style assault rifes" and a handgun ... thats the "axis of evil" as far as the antis are concerned but so far none of them have used this story to push their agenda.Because the propane tanks didn't blow up, that's why. This guy disproved their contentions in a real-life demonstration. Now, if the tanks HAD exploded there would be legislation winding its way through every legislature in the land.

Always remember this: The antis live in the land of "What If". They exist to profit on every tragedy to its full extent. They need victims to justify their very existence. They need killings. They need mayhem. They need destruction. It is their manna!

WITHOUT THEM, THEY ARE SIMPLY A BLANK PAGE IN HISTORY!

BluesBear
June 8, 2004, 12:02 AM
From The Denver Post


Four years ago, Heemeyer sued the town of Granby, the town's Board of Trustees, a business park and an industrial park. Heemeyer argued that the town shouldn't rezone an area near his business to accommodate the cement plant. The cement plant was an industrial use, while the rest of the area was zoned residential and light commercial.

"He was concerned about the impact of the cement plant on the surrounding neighborhood," said Peter Dietze, the attorney who represented him in the case. "... He had a legitimate concern about the effects the cement plant might have had on his business."


The dispute over the concrete plant, said his Grand Lake neighbor, David Raffaelli, reached new heights when Heemeyer sought to "cross 8 feet of their property (the concrete plant's) to hook up with the sewer line. He couldn't function without the sewer line and the cooperation of the town."


On Friday, one of the first buildings the bulldozer tore into was the concrete plant, Mountain Park Concrete. It then went on to hit the Town Hall, the town newspaper, the home of the former and now deceased mayor, and a hardware store owned by another man Heemeyer named in a lawsuit, as well as others.

"He's making quite a point with this," said Rick Kramer, a logger who said he knew Heemeyer. "He's gone after everyone who crossed him."

Roadkill Coyote
June 8, 2004, 02:50 AM
"I just like the idea of lawmakers shuddering and thinking back to it whenever they're about to take rights away!" Third_Rail

Unfortunately, if they think anything about this, it'll probably be, "Look where relaxing the zoning regs for a property owner got us. We better not do that again".

Wow, it's a good thing thats going to be in the back of their minds from now on. :rolleyes:
Spin it how you will, but the local government did the right thing to start out with,
and received strong negative reinforcement.

This is a loss for us all.

[list=1]
Additionly, it appears that they later fined him for not having a septic tank. So it would appear that after he sued the local government, it returned his affection. But the start of it all appears to be his attempt to prevent the neighboring property owner from developing his land. Certainly that's the "zoning dispute" that everyone keeps citing.

The town hall containing a library was only evacuated because the police called ahead. The businesses that were destroyed were only empty because there owners didn't make a stand for their property rights. The police called ahead, psycho-boy didn't. He also didn't get out of the bulldozer to make sure everybody was out, did he? Avoided injuring people my eye, he just didn't care whether he killed anybody or not.

This isn't research, it's just the details that are making the papers
[/list=1] :neener:

Norm357
June 8, 2004, 02:22 PM
FWIW, and I am not condodning this freaks actions, the local cops have yet to produce any weapons that this man allegedly had. It also has been reported that he did not havea 50 cal.



Norm who loves a good conspiracy.:D

Roadkill Coyote
June 8, 2004, 05:57 PM
OK, Norm357, let me get this straight...

The Grand County Seriff's Office decides not to trot out the lunatic's guns in a gratuitous Brady bunch trophy shot, as has been the subject of numerous complaints in this forum, and that makes you suspicious and unhappy? Is that what your saying?

:scrutiny:

El Rojo
June 9, 2004, 01:01 AM
Go to this link.

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E162%257E2200337,00.html

One of the video links shows the inside of the tank. You should all check it out. He most certainly had a Barrett .50 BMG inside. I wonder if he actually did use it? Well there is the anti's reason for banning .50's. They finally got someone to spend enough money and use one in a crime.

EDIT: After watching the footage from the Denver Post, I have to say I respect the guy. He did a darn fine job setting that tank up. His gun ports weren't the greatest, but they worked. He put a lot of thought into this mission and how he was going to do it. The city held him up and screwed with him, maybe they were in the right, maybe they were in the wrong. In the end, it ended up costing them millions. How's that for payback? Sorry if you don't agree with me, but when the little guy takes on the local government that is all about money, you gotta like it when he pays them back in spades.

Roadkill Coyote
June 9, 2004, 02:45 AM
Mr. Heemeyer appears to have started the whole chain of evens by trying to use the government's power to "hold up and screw" his neighbor. Quite the underdog, eh? As for sympathizing with him just because he was taking on the government, my belief in liberty is not so debased that it needs to take comfort in the evil acts of madmen.

Roadkill Coyote
June 9, 2004, 04:31 AM
My severe disagreement with the lionization of goobers aside, psycho-boy did have fairly good taste in firearms.

http://media.mnginteractive.com/media/paper36/dozer-Gun.jpg

http://media.mnginteractive.com/media/paper36/dozer-Fangun.jpg

Triad
June 9, 2004, 05:53 AM
Roadkill, why do you see this fellow as the bad guy? I may be wrong, but what I'm picking up from what I've read is that this guy was in the neighborhood (zoned for residential and light commercial use) first, then his neighbor decides to get the city to change the zoning to allow industrial use in the area. The folks that own the concrete plant should have picked a location that was already zoned for industrial use, but no, they had to use the power of the state to their benefit. The city most likely changed the zoning because there was much more money to be had by doing so.

Roadkill Coyote
June 9, 2004, 06:16 AM
Until fast and effective police work caused them to be evacuated, there were children in the town library (located in the town hall), into which Heemeyer drove his bulldozer. Someone who undertakes actions which any reasonable person would conclude carry a risk of death or serious injury to innocent children that have nothing to do with his dispute is beneath contempt.

The recent tendency towards the lionization of anyone who "fights the system" these days, regardless of the actual facts is starting to get on my nerves.

:cuss:

Jim March
June 9, 2004, 06:50 AM
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1049937

:D

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=86048

BluesBear
June 9, 2004, 07:31 AM
To go with Jim March's poster...

Obiwan
June 9, 2004, 09:09 AM
I loved it when I heard our Governor claim he had a .50 cal MACHINE GUN

Not to take anything away from our brave first responders....

But if he had not gotten stuck it could have been MUCH worse

Art Eatman
June 9, 2004, 09:35 AM
Tied to "first cause" for this example of Great Welding, and readily admitting I don't know all the facts:

Several cities have decided that a private enterprise was in the public interest (shopping mall, sports stadium) and have used the power of eminent domain to first buy individual's homes at forced sale and then resell to the promoters.

It sounds like re-zoning was the method in this instance.

This re-zoning could well have been causative in a loss of property values. Much of the value of a residence in an area like Granby or Grand Lake is due to the ambience of the area. (I've been to Grand Lake.) A cement plant does not strike me as something which enhances the quality of life for local homeowners, nor render the property more marketable.

To really be able to render a judgement, then, I'm prone to the ancient dictum of "Cherchez le $$$$$" to see who profited and who lost, by the combination of industrial development and city council decisions.

Most people react to stimuli, rather than "out of nowhere" initiating some action. It's never unwise to consider that some people can react in an unexpected manner.

:), Art

Firethorn
June 9, 2004, 09:46 AM
The guy ran a muffler shop, how much ambience can one of those have? :confused:

I'm afraid that I just have to say I don't have enough information. Was the guy screwed? Did they change right of ways or something so that he lost business?

Triad
June 9, 2004, 11:25 AM
Well Roadkill, you said
This "zoning dispute" wasn't about Heemeyers land. It was about Heemeyer trying to use the zoning process ie; the power of the state, to prevent a neighbor from using his land as the neighbor saw fit. Government interferance didn't push this guy into snapping, the local government sided with the property rights of the neighbor. Think about it! The local government made the pro-freedom choice. Heemeyer wasn't a posterboy for anything but revenge and more psych-meds.
Now what I've seen doesn't support what you said at all.

Roadkill Coyote
June 9, 2004, 05:55 PM
Heemeyer had a muffler shop, large enough to sell off part of the building and still convert a bulldozer without anybody noticing. In many places that could be zoned light industrial anyway. His neighbor asked the local government for a zoning change, or variance. The local government followed their regulations, and granted the change. Then they got sued, and a judge decided Heemeyers suit had no merit. This is oppression? This is worth "understanding" a guy that drove a bulldozer into the library that children had been evacuated from shortly before?

What if the town had told the neighbor "tough luck, it's your property but we decide how it's getting used". Your suggesting that would have been a victory for freedom?

It would appear, by this double standard, that anyone who is anti-government is worthy of sympathy, and anyone with money deserving of suspicion.

I repeat, my belief in liberty is not so debased that it needs to take comfort in the evil acts of madmen.

sendec
June 9, 2004, 06:45 PM
This is a joke, right, to go with the cutesy cartoons?

I am buying stock in Alcoa. Cops are evil for the draconian measures they take to make us wear seatbelts, and this guy is a poster child for the "I'll Show Them" set and nearing canonization in the welding hall of fame.

El Rojo
June 9, 2004, 08:23 PM
Wow, there sure is a lot of assumptions being made here. Just because you are impressed with a guy's creation of a tank-dozer and you find it entertaining that the local body of government went after the guy
(or only appeared to go after the guy) only to have the guy fight back and cause them millions of dollars worth of damage, it doesn't mean that one necessarily finds "comfort in the evil acts of madmen". We can talk about the what ifs all we want, but the facts remain, he didn't kill anyone. I think it would have been interesting had he not killed himself and what he would have been charged with and how much time he would have served over this thing. It would have most certainly made things more difficult for the powers that be. Now his story is pretty much dead along with him and even if he was dealt a bad hand, no one is going to believe it now. Oh well. Life goes on.

Roadkill Coyote
June 9, 2004, 09:28 PM
Your right that there are a lot of assumptions flying around, nothing wrong with admiring his welding, and I'm not saying that I've never felt a twinge of sympathy for the wrong side. However, feeling some good about this guys actions because it will leave the local government looking over their shoulder most certainly is taking some comfort from it. There may be cases wherein that is deserved, but the automatic assumption that it is in every case of someone opposing government (as seems to be the trend) is wrong.

I merely believe that when drawing a bright line for the conduct of government, we should probably draw an equally bright one for ourselves.





Is this part of that Yeehawism thing that I've heard so much about? :confused:

Edited to add: Hmmm, I should probably change my sig line before I start pontificating, shouldn't I?

dustind
June 18, 2004, 06:04 AM
I'm surprised some of our anti-gov types aren't rushing off to reinforce the guy... That is a funny comment comming from a Green. Considering he went after private property, and did not harm anyone.

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