Extractor tention confusion


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Lochaber
June 5, 2004, 10:33 PM
Hi all.

This is a long post but I want to give all the details to the experts.

I recently replaced the extractor in my MilSpec Springfield with a Ed Brown hardcore. I did this because the original was clocking and every now and then the claw would jump off the case and leave it between slide and barrel.

I've read all I could find about how to tune an extractor (ain't THR great?) and (dangerously) armed with that knowledge I tentioned the extractor such that a loaded round would survive the shaking test. Since then I put about 300 rounds through the gun and it sure ejects well, though not very energeticaly. No more clocking either (the firing pin stop was also replaced with an Ed Brown).

However from the begining I noticed that while testing the gun with Azoom snapcaps, the last round would not eject correctly, the nose didn't seem to clear the ejection port. This was odd as it had no problem with the old extractor (and I did put the old one back in and indeed that went away). I didn't worry to much about it as the empties were ejecting fine, and a real loaded round did as well. And this only happened if no round was under it, meaning the problem happened with an empty mag or no mag but not with a mag with 1 or more rounds.

But at the range I noticed that I was getting a few failures to go into battery, the round alligned with the chamber, under the extractor but not fully into battery. So I set myself to figuring it out. Riding the slide while loading a round I noticed a bit of bind right at the last 1/10 of an inch before going into battery. The bind was not there without a round. So I thought extractor, and tried the old one. No bind with the old one.

So then I thought "To much tension" and I set myself to bending and testing. If I unbend the extractor enough that the binding goes away it just falls out of its channel with no pressure when the stop is removed. It seems to loose. If I add the slightest bend, then the return to battery comes back.
:banghead:

I looked at the extractor itself, and all the bevels are there and nice and smooth. I guess I just don't get it. When people say that the extractor should have enough tention to keep a loaded round through a light shake, does that mean hold it against the breach face, or can the the round hang down and forward? An empty against the breach face ... how hard? I can get it to hold an empty with a very little bend but if I shake it too hard it jumps out and before that it starts leaning forward, away from the breach face. At the same time it holds a loaded round through a shake, but at an angle. And I still have a bit of a bind at the last of the return to battery. :scrutiny:

Also if I unbended such the bind goes away, that last snap cap now ejects well as well, but then it seems that the extractor is way to loose. I tried everything else I could think off. Removed shok-buff (ed brown white) and put it back in. Removed FLGR and replaced with standard version. I tried recoil spring between 13 and 18.5. Same deal with all of them, and I still think it is the extractor.

So can anyone give me a hint? It seems that I can get too much and not enough tension but not just right. I wish someone would put up a video of the process and of the hand tests so I could see if I'm doing them right.

Now I will hang my head and shame and go shoot a K98k until the 1911 guru's help me fix this, because apprently the Springfield is to complex for my little brain ...

Hmmm ... simple bolt action gun .. drool...

Loch

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1911Tuner
June 6, 2004, 08:55 AM
Howdy Lochaber,

Sounds like you might have a couple of minor issues. Here's a few things to check.

Hook length...or rather how deep is the hook from the tip to the inner wall
that touches the rim? Use a dial caliper to measure the whole end of the extractor at the tip of the hook, and then take a measurement from the wall to the backside...and subtract. The length should be .032 to .035 inch.

If the hook is too long, it can put the case into a bind with the extractor and
ejector at the release point. A too-long hook can also cause the return to battery problems because it touches the case inside the extractor groove.
To check it, remove the extractor and hold it up to a light while moving a case slowly under the hook in the same way that it would while functioning. More likely to occur with an extended ejector or with a shock buff in place. Check the overall length of the snap cap itself. If it's much more than 1.265 inch, it's too long to reliably eject without modifying the
port at the bottom front radius. Could be a tolerance stacking issue with the snap cap's OAL and the extractor hook length.

Does it eject live factory ammo okay? Hardball is the longest. Will it
eject factory hardball?

There may be an out-of-spec condition between the slide and extractor
that allows the front of the hook to touch the forward angle of the extractor groove. Slip a round under the hook and against the breechface and hold the slide up to a light to see if there is contact there.

Remove the extractor and measure the width of the two parallel rails
on the underside of the breechface. That width should be a minimum
of .484 inch. .488 to .490 is better.

Check the breechface itself for rough toolmarks or burrs, especially around
the firing pin hole.

Check the top of the barrel throat for a sharp corner or edge that would dig into the side of the case as the round tries to break over to horizontal.

Standin' by...(May be slow with a response today. Company in town that
wants to see the Blue Ridge Parkway on a motor scooter)

Tuner

yankytrash
June 6, 2004, 08:58 AM
If you're a brass rat, compare a casing that was fired with the old extractor versus one with with the new extractor. Are the firing pin dimples hitting the same spot?

You don't have an extended ejector in that puppy, do you? I've found, in my limited experiences, that an extended ejector plays hell with extractors.

If you get a chance, try this - overbend your old extractor and range-test it. I had a Springfield that had extractor problems, and would only run reliably when the extractor was overbent to the point where it was difficult to insert into the slide. Admittedly, I didn't try to replace it.

Also, you may want to try putting a new firing pin stop in in there if you suspect your old extractor was clocking around. Clocking beats the firing pin stop's tenon where it holds the extractor.

m1911joe
June 6, 2004, 09:01 AM
Check the length of the extractor hook. It might be to long and touching
the bottom of the extractor groove on the case.

Lochaber
June 6, 2004, 01:42 PM
Well, I set myself to mesuring.

Breach face is about .492. I say about because I can not get my calipers in there the right way. It may be just .490.

The snap cap is 2.70. So it might be too long and a factory ball round does eject. I would not really be concerned about this but this problem goes away at the same time as the return to battery problem.

BTW, the ejector is the standard factory one from Springfield.

Now about the extractor. The outside mesurement is .11 and the inside is about .069 resulting in a .041 hook. Indeed after looking more carefully there is no contact between the inside of the extractor and the rim. The only contact is the hook edge to the inside of the rim.

The breach face looks smooth and free of burrs.

So it looks like the hook is too long. How does one go about fixing that? do I file/stone the hook? Do I work on the edge or on the angled front surface?

Thank you all

Loch

1911Tuner
June 6, 2004, 03:42 PM
Howdy Lochaber,

.041 is a little too long, and the back of the hook is probably digging in on the inside of the rim as the case twists toward the port.

I lay a 6-inch smooth mill file on the bench and drag the hook sideways on it to shorten it. You can use a medium India stone, but it will take longer.
Be careful to keep the tip of the hook at 90 degrees to the stone, and
use a swiping motion to lightly radius the bottom corner of the hook when you get the length set. I'd take it to .035 and try it.

If you use a file, remember that the fill will only cut in one direction. File
or stone, draw the hook across it...stop...lift...and repeat.

If the front of the hook is close to the forward angle of the extractor groove, you may want to stone it a little while you're at it. Use a radiusing
motion on the corner so that the whole front of the hook is smoother.

Luck!

Tuner

Lochaber
June 6, 2004, 04:32 PM
Thank you Tuner ..

I went ahead and carefully removed some of the hook. It is now at about .034-.035 and the binding I could feel while going into battery is now gone while the tension looks good. I'll have to make it to the range to make sure that everything is good, but it sure looks like that did it. Even the snap caps eject correctly now :D

I know that most "drop in" parts need work and that doesn't bother me but is it standard for Ed Brown hardcore extractors to be that much longer then spec?

Loch

1911Tuner
June 6, 2004, 07:09 PM
Loch asked:

I know that most "drop in" parts need work and that doesn't bother me but is it standard for Ed Brown hardcore extractors to be that much longer then spec?

Nope. It's actually pretty surprising that yours was that long. Most
Hardcore extractors that I've used/seen are on the money, and require
less prep and fitting on average than Wilson. Odd. Brown Hardcore DO
tend to be a little long at the butt-end, and require blending with the
back of the slide, though.

Anyway...Problem solved! That there's what this here forum is all about.

Luck!

Tuner

bountyhunter
June 8, 2004, 01:51 PM
So then I thought "To much tension" and I set myself to bending and testing. If I unbend the extractor enough that the binding goes away it just falls out of its channel with no pressure when the stop is removed. It seems to loose. If I add the slightest bend, then the return to battery comes back. Something we sometimes lose sight of:

The tension with a brass under the hook is achieved by the extractor being deflected and the eges of the brass case rim touch the inner channel of the extractor (slot) and the side wall of the breech face.

If you take the brass out, the extractor MAY be loose in the channel. It depends. In that position, the extractor touches the channel at the center knuckle (pad) and the end knuckle nearest the tip as well as the end in the retainer plate. It is definitely possible to have an extractor which applies proper tension with a round under the hook and then is loose (and clocks) when the round is removed. I had one.

In that case, you basically need more "meat" on the front pad on the side nearest the FP hole. You can't make metal grow, so I used a file to slightly deepen the extractor groove and also reshape the tip (don't do much). That effectively means the extractor has to be bent FARTHER to apply proper tension when the round is under the tip... which also means the extractor will still have a little tension on it when the round releases (so it won't be loose in the channel).



Also if I unbended such the bind goes away, that last snap cap now ejects well as well, but then it seems that the extractor is way to loose. I tried everything else I could think off.

One other important issue: many new extractors I've seen are not properly radiused (rounded over) at the lower edge of the vertical slot. That causes the "loading bind" you are describing at exactly that point (just short of battery). Not sure if that is true here. I would be surprised if an Ed Brown extractor wasn't made right but it is certainly possible.

1911Tuner
June 8, 2004, 02:18 PM
Bountyhunter said:

One other important issue: many new extractors I've seen are not properly radiused (rounded over) at the lower edge of the vertical slot. That causes the "loading bind" you are describing at exactly that point (just short of battery). Not sure if that is true here. I would be surprised if an Ed Brown extractor wasn't made right but it is certainly possible.

The Brown hardcore has the radiused bottom corner and the bevel at the leading edge of the wall to help the rim cam it open...The Wilson doesn't...
or at least the last one that I bought didn't. The hardcore requires less
prep and fitting than the Wilson. The Wilson has extra material in the
FP stop slot to allow for a press-fit. Toss a coin.
__________________________________

And also:

You can't make metal grow, so I used a file to slightly deepen the extractor groove and also reshape the tip.

Oh, I just HATE those!:banghead:

Good post BH...It's those little things that we often don't think about...and it's the little things that getcha sometimes. Ask me how I know...:rolleyes:

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