[CAPTAIN MIKE]

As I exited a nearby convenience store yesterday here in Las Vegas with my little 6 year old son at my side, we were just stepping off the curb outside the door headed to our nearby truck with a load of ice for a Scout picnic. At that time, I noticed four 20-something young men with baggy clothes exiting their vehicle and moving towards us - and towards the door of the convenience store. I was physically located between them and my little guy.

About 4 seconds passed. As I opened the rear door of the truck and helped my little boy up, I heard the distinct sound of two gunshots coming from the direction of the 4 young men. I pushed my little boy down into the floorboard, wheeled around to the right drawing my condition one Kimber .45 and took the safety off as I tried to get down into as low a profile as I could and lined up my firearm on the closest target.

The four young men were to say the least startled and shocked by the sight of my drawing down my firearm on them. But I thought honestly in that moment I was about to defend myself and my son with all the training and practice I could muster at that moment.

All four stopped dead in their tracks, and two raised their hands. The one closest to me blurted out "Custom-made Car Alarm" to explain the sound of the gunshots I heard. I kept my gun on them for what seemed then to be a long time -- just in case it was a decoy action on their part, and then I stood up, lowered my gun to a ready position and suggested maybe it would be MUCH safer and much smarter -- especially in this day and time -- to use the standardized short horn honk or electronic chip-chip sound instead of the sound of gunfire. I told them I a meant no harm to them but that the sound of that car alarm caused me to be in fear for my life and that of my young son.

The one young man holding the car keys just sneered a smart-ass look (as if it was funny) as he moved towards the store, but the man in the far rear with his hands still up just said "Yes Sir."

I was not aware of any reaction by anyone at the gas pumps nearby nor anyone driving into or out of the parking area. But I had the distinct impression that the young man in the rear who gave a respectful reply was going to have to change his pants very soon.

I re-holsted my sidearm, pulled my unbottoned Hawaiian shirt back over my t-shirt, checked on my son (who was crying and scared), and then after comforting him and helping him calm down, departed the scene.

Any thoughts or suggestions???

[buy guns]

what a bunch of idiots.

i think you did the right thing. must have been quite the adrenaline rush.

[Preacherman]

I hope you reported the incident to the police - otherwise, if those men lodge a complaint against you for "brandishing", you might be in hot water, legally speaking. Otherwise, no problem - I'd have done exactly the same thing!

Idiots with custom car alarms... mutter... mutter... :fire: :banghead: :cuss:

[CrudeGT]

Sounds like your profiliing got you a little too excited for what may have been going on. Sounds like your training is right on cue though. Maybe takinga quick peak around the corner of the truck, to see what was going on, before pointing the gun at someone, might have been a better idea.



Quick question though, I've been meaning to ask something like this, but could not find the words. And I can use your experience to ask my question.

My friends and I currently dress like gothic hooligans. baggy clothes, mostly black, chains, boots, all the stuff that sets off those 'situational awareness' beakons. Suppose I was with those guys, if they were acquaintences, or whatever, and we get out of our car at the gas station. walk towards the door and the driver sets his car alarm, which sounds like a gun shot. I turn and see you with gun pointing at me. Now you are only acting on your own personal safety. I don't know that. I heard a gun shot and see you with a gun. So I proceed to reach for my XD40. What happens? do we shoot each other in a miscommunication? Do we yell things such as "I'm a licensed concealed carrier" to notify each other?

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

Given the sneering reaction of the young man who owned the car, it was clear he actually thought creating the sound of gunfire to startle and frighten someone else was FUNNY !!

He could not have been more wrong. And he was within only seconds of death at the hands of someone who perceived an immediate and unprevoked attack by firearms.

Come on, now, let's use some common sense here. It matters not what the four young men were wearing. It MATTERS that the sound of gunfire coming from their direction gave someone like me the belief that an attack on me and my little boy with a gun was already underway.

Just think how tragically this could have ended if someone with less training and less of a cool head had simply panicked and opened fire at the four subjects.....

It would have made for a tragic and accidental death that never had to happen were it not for the callous and senseless act of a smart aleck who thought it was FUNNY to frighten others into thinking they are about to die.

[mondocomputerman]

I think you were completely in the right. The guy with that for a car alarm, in this day and age, is a moron. Maybe it will take a few more instances like this to teach him.

[CrudeGT]

Personally, I feel I would always prefer to assess the situation before drawing the firearm. Would it have been possible get a quick veiw, maybe through a window of your vehicle? or in a reflection of something? I don't want to sound like I'm badgering you, but I would like to think that we only aim our guns when we know we need to pull the trigger. And if that method of thinking was followed, you would have shot an innocent kid. Are you certain there was no way to get an idea of what was going on before you aimed.

Also, you did not answer my question about one f those kids having a CCW also.

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

Oh Come ON...

Think about it. Out of nowhere comes the sound of gunfire. When that happens right next to you, common sense tells you that you just don't have the LUXURY OF TIME to stroll around to the far end of your vehicle, take cover, leave your loved one at risk and "see what's happening". Your perception from the sound of gunfire right next to you tells you that you are UNDER ATTACK.

The sound of gunfire right next to you requires IMMEDIATE DEFENSIVE ACTION. In the 1.5 seconds from pushing my little baby boy down on to the floor of the backseat to drawing my weapon, for all I knew someone was firing at me and had simply "missed" on the first two shots.

Fortunately, once I had my sights lined up, the targets took immediate action to show they were not a threat. Your comments sound like a Monday Morning Quarterback who seems to think there's all this "SPARE TIME" while under fire.

Once I assumed a defensive posture, I did assess the situation. That's
why I didn't open fire. I suppose that if you were with the guy, heard the sound of gunfire as I did, you would have presumed that your Good Buddy had just fired at someone and was about to be on the receiving end of return fire. It would have been tragic.

This only underlies the ULTIMATE STUPIDITY of taking action such as he did to intentionally put others in fear for their safety and that of their loved ones. I sincerely hope this incident will cause the young men who accompanied the driver to slap him upside the back of his head and ask him "Dude, what the *!@$%# did you EXPECT to happen when you installed such a stupid car alarm? It makes people think they're getting shot at and TODAY you were lucky."

Hopefully the car owner will re-assess his car alarm since causing others to think they are in MORTAL and IMMEDIATE DANGER is certainly NOT FUNNY.

[CrudeGT]

The difference is, that i was not in the situation. I did not perceive gunfire next to me. So, I can not say exactly what I would or not have done. As I said before your training paid off, becuase it sounds like you acted quickly, kept a cool head and did not pull the trigger.

My question is this, was there no way of knowing what the situation was, before you aimed it? How do you know the gunfire did not come from inside the store? why did you immediately train your sights on the 4 individuals walking into the store? I do know that if I hear gunfire, my gun is coming out of the holster, but I would hope that I would be perfectly sure what was target and what was by-stander, before I pointed my gun.

BTW, I'm not saying that he is in the right, for having a car alarm that sounds like gun fire. I think that is quite stupid of the kid, and I hope that this situation has taught him a lesson. If not, lets hope the next person to hear it is a cop. See how he likes being perceived as a threat by law enforcement, their actions will not be as kind as yours.

[jobu07]

you defended yourself and your family, all without injury to anyone at the scene. Shoudl the situation have escallated, i'm sure that you would have taken the appropriate actions at that point. So far, fro mwhat i've read, you did everything right.

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

When confronted with the sound of gunfire, take the following action:

1. Help loved one take cover
2. Draw weapon
3. Reduce profile
4. Aim at where the gunfire came from.

The sound did not come from inside the store.
The sound did not come from a passing car.

It came exactly and precisely from the direction of the four men.

[Shovelhead]

Thanks for the post.
I didn't even know those type alarms existed.
I can only surmise that I would have reacted the same way.

Maybe the owner will venture into "the wrong neighborhood", and set his alarm, and someone will remove him from the gene pool.

Shovelhead

[XLMiguel]

I'm with the Captain, I think you did fine. Car owner is clearly an idiot who may be on the recieving end of a seroius object lessonin the near future.

CrudeGT, if you turn to see you're covered by a drawn gun after hearing shots fired and you go for yours, you're real likely to get center-punched before you can complete your draw. You could raise your hands and yell, "Don't shoot", you could drive for cover or haul @$$ outa there, but if you draw on a guy who's already spooked and covering you, you just made a very bad bet. Look like a hooligan, act like a hooligan, you could easily get shot as a hooligan - too bad, so sad, but 'I was in fear for my life'. JMO, YMMV.

[CrudeGT]

Again, I was not there. I am simply asking questions based on my perception of the situation. And my perception, from reading your post, may be very different than what actually happened. Honestly, I'm not trying to tell you that you did anything wrong. I just playing devils advocate, and asking are you sure you did everything right.

It is calming to know that if a situation did arise, where you needed to protect your family, you would have been able to without hesitation. I apologize for sounding like an *********.

[Gunsnrovers]

I think you did the right thing, especially in light of your later posts.

After the 1st post, I mentally put the 4 idiots as having moved past you and closer to the store then to their car and I was unclear as to why you aimed at them.

The only thing I can think of is to call the cops. I don't know what the laws are there, but what would happen if a witness got your plate # and made a "man brandishing pistol" phone call to the PD? I would hate to think of what would happen to me here in the PRK...:fire:

[CrudeGT]

Mike in VA, you are very correct. That was a bad scenario. I do not want to hijack this thread. Or make it sound like I am trying to turn the tables on Captain Mike, anymore than I already have. I will make a new thread asking my questions.

[Standing Wolf]

I'd say you did just fine.

I'd say the four individuals are in over their heads.

[Werewolf]

IMO, Cpt Mike, you reacted in the correct manner, maintained your cool after drawing your weapon, evaluated the situation correctly and proceeded to defuse it.

The only thing I'd have done differently is once it was all over to get the tag number on their vehicle and walk into the 7-11 and report it to the police - while the morons were standing there listening and then hung around until the police showed up.

If a car alarm that sounds like shot's fired isn't illegal it oughta be. Someone confronted who was less situationally aware and/or less in control might very well have shot a couple of those punks.

[Valkman]

Having met Mike I got the feeling this is a guy that knows what he's doing, so I think he probably did what I'd of done. I've never heard a car alarm make sounds like that, but I wouldn't have cared what the four guys looked like if I thought they were shooting at me. There was a guy standing today close to where I parked at Lowe's, and what he's wearing is secondary to what he's doing, which is milling around, going one way then the other. Just makes me pay a little more attention to him, that's all. Turns out he's waiting for other people - great! As long as he's not waiting for me I'm happy! :)

[sturmruger]

I can't think that I would have acted much differantly. Those car alarms are really loud and I can see how it would be easy to think your really heard gunfire.

I personally think profiling people by how they dress is perfectly acceptable. What a person looks like is important. I have never found myself worried about little old ladies with white hair. I have gotten concerned about some gangbangers that I have come in contact with.



Good job protecting your son.

[DMK]

Just curious, how loud and realistic sounding is this car alarm? As we all know, real guns are VERY loud.

[buy guns]

aftermarket car alarms can get really loud.

[Graystar]

I think you should've shot the car.

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

I bet it's not long before these alarms start showing up in Texas, where the 'natural' reaction will be very similar, I predict.

What's the best caliber for Escalade, anyway?

Regards,
Rabbit.

[NineseveN]

Right or wrong, I would've done the same thing...

[HadEmAll]

CrudeGT says:

"My friends and I currently dress like gothic hooligans. baggy clothes, mostly black, chains, boots, all the stuff that sets off those 'situational awareness' beakons."

And you do that why? To create an effect, right? To show that you aren't conventional. So don't be surprised to be "profiled". (And I'm sure you're not really surprised) I would "profile" you, and be much quicker to react to any threat I perceived from you. You play the game of life your way, I'll play it mine. Don't dress like a wolf and expect people to perceive you as the non-wolf you claim to be.

I think Captain Mike played it okay, especially since he had another innocent to protect.

[Clean97GTI]

If you don't mind, can I ask what part of town you were in?

I would've done the same thing. There are a lot of people in this city with an utter lack of brains. Some think its funny to be stupid. Some end up dead.

[S_O_Laban]

I never been in a situation like the one mentioned by Captain Mike above. How I would have reacted is anybodys guess... but one thing stands out about this situation... His training paid off... big time. Time to get more training. Good job Captain Mike.

CrudeGT, pretty big of you to offer an apology, most don't. Maybe that's why this is The High Road.

edited for creative spelling.:D

[Majic]

Though the situation caused the event, the fact that they were unarmed and facing you could put you in hot water with a brandishing charge. Some times the law has no compassion in considering the circumstances.

[Treylis]

My friends and I currently dress like gothic hooligans. baggy clothes, mostly black, chains, boots, all the stuff that sets off those 'situational awareness' beakons.

Gothic hooligans typically pack knives and swords, so I would normally assume to be better armed than they. ;-P

[BHPshooter]

How stupid would an individual have to be to have a car alarm emit the sounds of gunfire? :uhoh:

I can't believe people. Absolutely ludicrous.

Wes

[CrudeGT]

Hey, come on, don't take my words on out context. I dress this way because it's comfortable for me. I am not comfortable with the way my body is shaped, and when i wear black, I am able to cover up the fact that I have B cup breasts, thanx to gynocomastia(it's a genetic medical condition). Wearing black disguises the shadows and makes them look like pecks. My friends do it because they want attention.

My entire quote was this

My friends and I currently dress like gothic hooligans. baggy clothes, mostly black, chains, boots, all the stuff that sets off those 'situational awareness' beakons. Suppose I was with those guys, if they were acquaintences, or whatever, and we get out of our car at the gas station. walk towards the door and the driver sets his car alarm, which sounds like a gun shot. I turn and see you with gun pointing at me. Now you are only acting on your own personal safety. I don't know that. I heard a gun shot and see you with a gun. So I proceed to reach for my XD40. What happens? do we shoot each other in a miscommunication? Do we yell things such as "I'm a licensed concealed carrier" to notify each other?

As to say, if I was in that situation. I heard a gun shot, I reach back for me gun, and quickly look around to see where it came from. and I see a guy pointing a gun at me, hiding behind a truck. I think he's shooting at me, he thinks I'm shooting at him. What do we do? However, I realize that asking this question in this thread makes it appear more like I am trying to tell Captain Mike that he did the wrong thing. Trust me, I am not, my intentions are being understood. So I left it at that.

Treylis, you're right, I was gothic when I was in high school, I carried more knives than the swiss army, and mine were sharper. I custom designed my trench coat to carry up to 20 blades, including pouches for throwing stars and throwing knives.

[Zach S]

I personally think profiling people by how they dress is perfectly acceptable. What a person looks like is important.

Yes it is.

But IME its not the guys dressed like gangbangers, bikers and goths you have to worry about. I've been in several fights during my days in high school with a few afterwards. A few were against as many as three guys, once as many as six. They were all "normal" looking.

Watch me all you want. I'm watching you as well...

[ny32182]

Just curious, how loud and realistic sounding is this car alarm? As we all know, real guns are VERY loud.

I find myself wondering the same thing. I've been around some pretty fantastic car audio systems, but I'd have a hard time thinking of one that could make enough noise to replicate the sound of real gunfire. Around here, the police are often summoned for nothing more than a firecracker lighting off.

More to the point, if I see some guy drawing down on me, if its from any sort of distance, I'd probably bank on him not being able to hit a moving target while I run for cover, reaching for my own CCW.... rather than stand there with my hands in the air hoping he doesn't shoot me.

But, I'm not going to judge someone on their actions in a situation in which I've never been.

A call to the cops was probably warranted, for your own protection if nothing else.

[BHPshooter]

I've been around some pretty fantastic car audio systems, but I'd have a hard time thinking of one that could make enough noise to replicate the sound of real gunfire.

At closer ranges, I'd agree -- but IME, if you're more than about 35 yards away from the shooter the gunshot is much quieter (no ear ringing) and the majority of the scarier sound (IMO) comes from supersonic bullets (I'm a 9mm shooter). However, what if this car alarm sounded just like subsonic bullets -- like .45 practice hardball?

I'm not trying to rationalize anything, just trying to point out that sound is interesting and confusing stuff. Obviously it was realistic enough to send someone's mind floating in adrenaline.

Wes

[patentmike]

Seems like you did right.
To follow up on the "what if he'd have been armed?" scenario:
If a guy threatened you with a pistol and got shot, but it turned out the pistol was unloaded, the shooting would still be justified (in most jursidictions). To me, the sound of gunfire that turned out to be a "joke" would be the same thing.

[dhoomonyou]

You did good.

Profiling? I dont think so, just because its racist doesnt mean its not true.

You should have called police, to justify pulling your weapon.

[Mornard]

Captain Mike -

It's the right thing. You did not "shoot first, and ask questions later" You came to full preparedness, ready to take the next step. Far too many folks would most likely have looked around, sort of dumbstruck, and then it's too late.

[BluesBear]

ttbadboy opined;
I've been around some pretty fantastic car audio systems, but I'd have a hard time thinking of one that could make enough noise to replicate the sound of real gunfire.

I have a .wav file of a .44 special that, when played through the small Boston Acoustics system that came with my Gateway computer, you will swear is live fire in the room with you.

[BHPshooter]

Bluesbear, that made me jump!!! Amazing!

*breath in, breath out.* :rolleyes:

Wes

[kcslim]

Given the situation,I would have done the same thing. You did what you had to do and that is protecting you and yours.

[rayra]

DMK
Just curious, how loud and realistic sounding is this car alarm? As we all know, real guns are VERY loud.
THAT is the core question here, for Cpt Mike. The awareness, response, follow-through, I agree with it all, but how did you mistake a recorded gunshot being played over a car alarm speaker for the REAL THING?

[thumbtack]

I don't see how you could have reacted differently.

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

Geez -- In the 1 second or so that it took me to react and push my little boy down into the floor board of the rear seat, and the next 1.5 or 2 seconds it took to assume a defensive ready posture, the thought of whether or not the sound was real didn't even cross my mind.

Put yourself in the situation. I'm a protective daddy actively engaged in situational awareness and was with my cute little 6 year old son who became scared and upset. I think most of us on this forum would do the same thing. Especially if they are parents.

I know from the sneer that the guy who owned the car thought it was FUNNY to make people fear for their life -- and he did it intentionally. That probably constitutes some type of assault or public nuisance.

Sad...Nearly Tragic. I think that if it happens again in another parking lot, rather than take the chance it might not be real, I'd react the same way again but next time I'd use my cell phone (next to my spare ammo mag carrier) to call the police and have the car owner arrested.

What this young man did was not only foolish, it was nearly an invitation to "return" fire. His friend in the rear of the group certainly got the message and I hope later he was successful in getting his driver buddy to re-connect with the real world.

Thanks for everyone's insight on this. Be safe out there. And don't let ANYONE put your children at risk....EVER.

[Stingray]

I am with CrudeGT on this one. Captain Mike "lined up my firearm on the closest target." , which happened to be an unarmed man.

If the story is turned around, CaptainMike could be in a bit of legal trouble for endangering the lives of others, or reckless endangerment. Here is how the story would go.

We pull up at this store and my buddy sets his car alarm, it is one that is supposed to sound like a gun going off. We had it for months without any problem, nor could we find any laws forbiding it. Anyways, as soon as he sets the alarm, some guy in the car next to us decides that for some reason he is under attack and pulls his gun on us! Even after we explain that it is the alarm, he keeps a loaded gun pointed at us for what seemed like a long time.

I agree with taking cover and removing your piece, but it does sound like pointing the gun at them could be seen as going too far in a legal sense. When the whole thing is over, on the one hand you have four teens with a recording of gunshots, and no gun. And on the other, a guy with a loaded and cocked gun pointing at a group of kids because a recording of gunshots scared him.

[ksnecktieman]

I think your response was appropriate.

Even now, I think a call to your local PD might be in order. At least verbalise the fact that this system is in use in your town. You might even save some lives. If that idiot pushes the button to make those noises while driving, he may draw defensive gunfire from another citizen, or maybe even the police themselves.

We all know if we display a weapon to someone's eyes, we can be arrested for brandishing, or making threats, or maybe even an assault charge. I am curious if the LEO family thinks the same charges could proceed from displaying a weapon to someone's ears?

If there had been an old Viet Nam vet in that parking lot, and you had seen him go to prone when those gun shots went off, would you have been able to restrain your trigger finger? We have soldiers in combat now that are learning to make themselves a small target when shots are fired. This looks to me like a tragedy in the making.

On the bright side, the owner of that system may have been using his sneer to hide his fear, and have already fixed the problem,,,,, we can hope, anyway.

[Bainx]

Do we yell things such as "I'm a licensed concealed carrier" to notify each other?

Of couse not! You calmly show each other your concealed weapons badge!:D

[Ben Shepherd]

OK, I've watched this thread, and promised myself I would't post. Oh well.

Who here has ever had a gun pulled on them?

I have, and it was faster than you could believe. Never again, folks.

Captain Mike said he heard gunfire. Well if it was loud enough for his mind to register as such, that dip :cuss: , dumb:cuss: punk ought to be glad that this hasn't happened before, and even more glad that our guy had his wits about him.

That car alarm is assinine in the extreme. This is real life, not a homeboy rap video. If I heard what I was pretty sure was gunfire in his situation(as presented), damn straight my gun's coming out, right now!! And if you're going to go around looking and acting the part, don't be suprised when you are mistaken for the real thing.

What if he had waited: "Oh, wait. If it's real they'll shoot again." And it had been a strongarm situation? With his child? Come on guys.

WAASSUP? Check out your homeboys new alarm!!! Pretty cool, but every time I set it someone pulls a gun on me for some reason.

Would your opinion differ if he were LEO?
SHEESH!!!

[W Turner]

Good job CAPTAIN MIKE....I would like to think that I would react as well as you did, including not pulling the trigger.


W

[Tom Servo]

First off, I'm REALLY glad you didn't fire. That could have caused a real problem. Here in Georgia, I know for a fact that you'd have gotten no trouble at all for your actions. I was standing outside work one night talking to a Woodstock PD officer when this redneck pulled up and armed his alarm. It was rich and bassy, and for all intents and purposes, sounded JUST like a gunshot. We both jumped, but the officer calmed down quicker than I did, as he knew what it was. He marched over and gave the redneck hell for it, explaining that having such a thing, while not illegal, was certainly stupid and if someone were to perceive it as a threat, the courts would agree.

This raised an interesting dilemma. What if someone's pulled over under suspicious circumstances, asked to get out of the car, and in the process of removing the keys, activates the alarm out of habit?

In any case, the car was a beat-up old '85 Acura that looked like it had been through the crusher once. Rather than fix it, the owner simply installed the under-body neon, spinning hubcaps, lighted mirrors, "gunshot" alarm, and oh, a license-plate that reads, "PIMP 007." I won't describe the individual, except to say that he's whiter than I am, and I'm Danish-Icelandic :eek:

So, good job keeping your wits about you, and had it come to opening fire, I'd have gladly served on the jury.

[Sawdust]

Anyone who is stupid enough to install and use a car alarm that sounds like a gunshot when armed is just plain stupid.

*Incredibly* stupid.:rolleyes:

You are an accident waiting to happen, and I will have *no* sympathy for you when a decent citizen plants one COM in your waste of skin because you think this childishness is funny.

Wise-up dumba$$e$.

Sawdust

[Stingray]

Now I agree that the alarm is irresponsible, but I have yet to hear a compelling arguement that legally justifies his response.

How is it legally justified to draw and point your gun at an unarmed innocent person because you heard a gunshot?

[Graystar]

How is it legally justified to draw and point your gun at an unarmed innocent person because you heard a gunshot? 1. He heard gunshots in close proximity, and

2. the shots came from the direction of the car, which was in close proximity.

Any reasonable person would conclude that:
1. his life was in immediate danger, and
2. the shots are being fired from where those men were standing.

I don't know about you, but that's good enough reason for me to draw.

[sturmruger]

That gun sounds is amazingly real sounding. I am going to go home and listen to it on my 5 piece PC surround sound system. I will probably scare the crap out of my wife. The only missing is the concussion of the muzzle blast.

[Majic]

I don't know about you, but that's good enough reason for me to draw.
To draw your firearm yes, but to actually take aim at the first person you see may be a problem if they display no threat to you.
This is a two edged sword that could hurt if swung in either direction.

[BluesBear]

sturmruger, that was a factory Remington .44 Special fired from a 3" 29. It was recorded with an Electro-Voice RE-20 microphone directly into a Sony handheld DAT at an outdoor range back in 1995.

I did 100 shots with 100 different mic positions and that was the best of the bunch.

:confused: A buddy of mine had a really nice 16 track studio but he just never would let me shoot there. :confused:

[Treylis]

Of couse not! You calmly show each other your concealed weapons badge!

Haha, so there actually IS a legit use for those other than fooling people into thinking you're a cop! ;-P

[Hardtarget]

I think a call to local police to COMPLAIN about that "alarm " is in order. Ordenances have passed here,(Nashville), to controll dark window tint. I bet the police will not be happy when they get the same rush you got. If they've not already heard it, they might like a heads up on it. You may not see/hear many of these if the police push for removal. They don't want to shoot anyone, either.
Mark.

[HadEmAll]

I'll ALWAYS have thought I saw something shiny in the hand(s) of anybody I point a gun at. It's stupid to think of giving the (perceived) bad guy(s) the first shot because you're worried about legal repercussions. Your first thought should be of survival, not what a jury or DA would think. If you don't survive because you were too slow to react because you were processing the penal code in your mind before reacting, then this whole concealed carry thing is (or was) a waste of time.

[Majic]

I'll ALWAYS have thought I saw something shiny in the hand(s) of anybody I point a gun at.
....and you may not keep your CCW very long or worst your ability to own your guns. Shiny doesn't have to mean gun and you don't have the right to just point a firearm at someone.

[larry_minn]

My take and (worth every penny you are paying me for it)
You saw some punks who dressed/acted like gang bangers. It would be rude to (disrespect) them by not treating them as the threat they want to be. You hear a shot from where they are so a REASONABLE person would ASSUME the shot came from t hem. You reacted to protect yourself/child. WHen you did NOT see a actual threat you did NOT shoot. IMO you are to be commended for thinking of others lives over your own/child. BTDT but in my case the gun the shooter had was loaded with blanks. (and he didn't point it at me) I feel this shows you have received enough training that you can afford to hesitate and make sure of facts. A untrained/unsure person would likely open fire and ask questions later.

[GEM]

One might quibble that you should have drawn to a low ready rather than pointing the gun at the person, just to avoid the risk of an ND due to stress. There are plenty of stress related bad shoots out there.

I would say call the cops immediately as they might have taken your license and reported you at their leisure with their side of the store.

As I said, I don't have a problem with the draw. Muzzle up bothers me a tad. I was justly criticized for it at the NTI for covering innocents and loved ones with my muzzle.

Otherwise, good for you Captain.

On a jury, if you had shot one and if it was proven that they had triggered the alarm, I would vote to acquit. In fact, a good psychologist who knows guns would be a fine expert witness. The defense had one in the Diallo case but didn't need to call her.

[The_Antibubba]

Cap,

Since this was in Vegas, not San Diego, the odds are the cops will be much more appreciative of your side as a CCW holder. If you haven't reported it by now, and they haven't stopped by to see you, I'd let it go this time.

[gryphon]

Did I Handle This Right??

I think that you already knew the answer to that question, so why even post it here?

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

Thanks Everybody for your insights.

We don't live in a perfect world. It seems that even CCW permit holders who have had varous levels of firearms and readiness training can respectfully disagree on the 'right' way to handle a perceived lethal threat in which the incident is over in a few seconds.

At the time, it sure seemed real to me. For all I knew in that split second or so, my little boy and I were about to be the victims of a Washington DC type sniper or some gangbanger crossfire.

There just wasn't a whole lot of time in those couple of seconds to slowly, leisurely and deliberately consider all the possible options. I reacted with a combination of instinct and purposeful training to take those actions possible under the circumstance to protect my little boy, assume the lowest target profile in the very short time available, get a sight picture, target acquisition and before firing, assess the situation.

In my own opinion, it seems pretty good that once it was clear that the two quick succesion sounds of gunfire that I heard were "only a car alarm", my muzzle went to the low ready posture and the brief verbal exchange with one of the men seemed to 'connect' the reality of the situation in a manner that I certainly hope will avoid that kind of incident happening again.

I believe these kinds of car alarms pose a real danger of public panic to those within hearing of them. It's against the law to shout "FIRE !!" in a movie theatre when there isn't one. It should be against the law to make people fearful of getting shot by maliciously and deliberately using a car alarm that sounds like gunfire.

Let's all resolve to keep aware of our surroundings, keep our wits about ourselves and be ready. Especially since it seems that we are in for more terrorist incidents between now and Election time.

Very Respectfully,

[Plinkerton]

While some may think you may have "jumped the gun" (pun intended :D), I personally don't think you acted out of line.

It's pretty stupid to have a car alarm like that, and I would have hoped I had acted the same way.

[KaceCoyote]

The whole point of getting a CCW is to protect your life and the lives of your loved ones.

He was with his son, there was a noise that caused him to fear for his and the safety of his son. He drew his weapon and readied himself to defend his family.

Personally, I'd rather jump the gun and get called a paranoid than drop the ball and take one in the stomach. Thats just me though...

Your only paranoid until your right.

[cracked butt]

I think Captain Mike did alright.

If the car alarm had a tone that sounded like a woman screaming for help because she was being raped, I think a similar action would have been justified as well.


There are reasons why we have laws that bar yelling 'fire' in a movie theatre.

[CEShooter]

cracked butt beat me too it. (That just sounds wrong on so many levels. Anyway.)
There is more to threat identification than simply visual cues. Sounds and smells should also be used. The only cue he had was auditory and Captain Mike reacted like I hope I would in a similar situation. The only possible critique I could add would be the direction the muzzle was pointed when he visually tried to figure out what was going on but either way I would consider it well done.
As for the whole profiling charges, if that's what he did I would have to say, "Holy cow, he must be human." Profiling is what has kept man alive all these years. We profile bright red cirles on a stove top, we profile snakes that make rattling noises when they shake their tails, and the list goes on and on. If I were in that situation and I noticed guys that look like thugs, gangbangers, goth, whatever, they are going to register in my mind as not conforming to societal norms which means they get the most attention. Though you may be offended in the end, it's kept me alive and I'll stick with it. Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then to me it's a duck and not some goose trying to stand out and get attention.

[ExtremeDooty]

It's been so long that I've fired a gun without a pair of muffs on, even a low quality recording of gunshots would likely make me jump out of my skin.

Anyone that doesn't profile these days, is either naive or foolish. Like someone else said, I don't think I'm going to have much trouble with anybody's Great-Grandma. Trouble is more likely to come from the young and stupid, like the kid with the gun shot car alarm.

[had]

Anyone that doesn't profile these days, is either naive or foolish.

if you see a guy that looks like trouble but are to worried about hurting his feelings that you just look down or pretend that he is not there you are living in a fantasy world. and i'm not talking to any one just saying how i feel. most people are not trouble, but if you dress like a punk, thug, gangster... i'm going to think you are one sorry.

you obviously did the right thing. even if i saw no one and heard the gunshots i would be pulling my weapon. if you see someone that looks like trouble you have no right to draw on them. but once you have heard gunshots ALL BETS ARE OFF. and if the gunshots turn out to be a car alarm well ... lucky for those guys that one of them wasn't carrying something that looked like a gun.

stupid idea for a car alarm, should be illegal.

had

[gryphon]

stupid idea for a car alarm, should be illegal.

No, it shouldn't be illegal. However if something happens that would have caused a firefight and that was the catalyst, then it should be taken into account.