Texas CHL & traffic law??


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westex
June 7, 2004, 01:08 AM
My daughter called tonight and asked me a couple of questions I could not answer for certain. Help out there?

Passenger is given a ticket for "improper wearing of seat belt". Belt was locked but shoulder strap was under right arm and not over right shoulder. She said it was a girl thing. Where could I look to find law about the required position of a seat belt?

Officer came back to car and gave her a hard time because she didn't tell him she had a CHL. She told him she didn't have a gun on her so she didn't need to show her CHL. I think this has been discussed before but don't remember if anyone cited the law on this (not whether it's best or proper but exactly what the law says on this). Oh yes, I jumped her case for not packing.

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Sylvilagus Aquaticus
June 7, 2004, 01:36 AM
Yep, she is compelled by the statute to give the LEO her CHL along with her TXDL. She should inform the LEO at that time that she is (obviously) a CHL holder and that she is/is not carrying at that time. Good form would be to additionally state where the handgun is, if carrying, and ask the LEO for his instructions, if any, if he needs 'to be put at ease'.

I am not an attorney, but this is what was told me by an attorney who teaches that certain part of CHL classes in the Dallas area.

Oh, and the passenger had the ticket coming. That's the wrong way to wear her belt, but the right way to snap her spine at about T5 or end up ejected from the vehicle.


Regards,
Rabbit.

Gillster
June 7, 2004, 03:30 AM
§ 411.205. DISPLAYING LICENSE; PENALTY. (a) If a
license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license
holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that
the license holder display identification, the license holder shall
display both the license holder's driver's license or
identification certificate issued by the department and the license
holder's handgun license. A person who fails or refuses to display
the license and identification as required by this subsection is
subject to suspension of the person's license as provided by
Section 411.187.

What I was told and what this looks like it says is that if armed it must be declared. Texas DPS CHL FAQ site says you don't need to have your permit with you if not armed so it shouldn't be a requirement when stopped to show your CHL with your DL. I've been stopped twice since I recieved my CHL, once armed once not, showed it when armed, didn't even come up when not armed, both stops went smoothly (and without tickets).
I am not a lawyer and don't play one on TV but the IF being the first word looks like the pertenent word.

Chris

O.F.Fascist
June 7, 2004, 03:39 AM
Passenger is given a ticket for "improper wearing of seat belt". Belt was locked but shoulder strap was under right arm and not over right shoulder. She said it was a girl thing. Where could I look to find law about the required position of a seat belt

http://www.buckleuptexas.com/seatbeltlaws/

Go down about halfway on the page and you get this title "545.413. Safety Belts; Offense."

However it doesnt say anything about how the seatbelt has to be worn, but it tells you where you can find that.


(h) In this section, "passenger vehicle," "safety belt," and "secured" have the meanings assigned by Section 545.412.

So we have to scroll back to the top of the page which is Section 545.412. This is what it says.

(4) "Secured," in connection with use of a safety belt, means using the lap belt and any shoulder straps according to the instructions of:

(A) the manufacturer of the vehicle, if the safety belt is original equipment; or

(B) the manufacturer of the safety belt, if the safety belt has been added to the vehicle.

Heh, hopefully they didnt shake down your daughter's friend too badly.

HankB
June 7, 2004, 09:28 AM
You have to hand over your CHL with your DL if you happen to be carrying at the moment.

Hmmm . . . this is the first time I've heard of a JBT ticketing a passenger. I guess he had a quota to meet before his next Krispy Kreme stop. What if the passenger didn't have a driver's license, or any other form of acceptable ID? :confused:

MacPelto
June 7, 2004, 09:55 AM
Hmmm . . . this is the first time I've heard of a JBT ticketing a passenger.

Part of the new "Click It or Ticket" campaign, no doubt.

Smoke
June 7, 2004, 11:49 AM
IF you are not armed, you do Not have to show your CHL or inform the officer that yo have one.

The seat belt thing is another matter. The reason women are required to wear the shoulder strap properly is it "accentuates" the breasts so the officer can get a better view.

:D :D

Smoke

TallPine
June 7, 2004, 12:09 PM
Sounds like a police state to me ...

bshepherd
June 7, 2004, 01:29 PM
I am a big advocate of wearing seat belts properly. I used to jump my son's s@%t when I saw him without it or worn improperly. I am pretty libertarian minded on most things, but not on this. If they could figure out how to make the dead and injured pay for their own treatment for injuries suffered by not wearing a belt then maybe. And what about the time and money caused by having first responders on the scene for hours when a fatality results versus an hour when the folks were all buckled up. If you dont wear a belt you are going to get hurt if you are in a wreck, often the rest of us pay for it cause they take you to the county hospital because you have no insurance.
Ben in TX

Brad Johnson
June 7, 2004, 04:13 PM
Yep, she is compelled by the statute to give the LEO her CHL along with her TXDL.

The only legal requirement to present it if requested by a member of law enforcement. However, it's always a good idea let them know up front. That way they know you are one of the good guys from the get-go. Not mentioning it and letting the officer find out when he/she runs your tags just makes a red flag go up in their mind.

As far as seat belts go, you must wear them in accordance with the way they were designed to operate - across the lap and across the chest. Failure to do so will get you a costly reminder.

I think that buckling up is a good idea, but the that we are forced to do so under threat proscecution is another rant. I put it in the same category as being fined for being overweight.

Brad

auschip
June 7, 2004, 07:35 PM
I put it in the same category as being fined for being overweight

Does that mean I should be able to write any excercise equipment/weight loss programs off on my taxes? :D

Brad Johnson
June 7, 2004, 07:44 PM
Not unless I can write off chicken fried steak as a business expense.

Brad

westex
June 7, 2004, 07:59 PM
Brad
There's no doubt that chicken fried steak and BBQ are both expense items, at least in my books.

Thanks for all the info. It appears that everyone is in basic agreement that if you're not carrying then legally you do not have to show you CHL. Everyone except Sylvilagus and his attorney/instructor(?).

Re: Proper use of seatbelt
It appears she was in violation of the law in this matter. I wouldn't ride without one although I resent being told I have to wear one.

Thanks again.

TarpleyG
June 7, 2004, 08:16 PM
As for the seat belt question, I do not know. As for the CHL license needing to be handed over if you are not carrying--in the two CHL classes I took when in TX, they specifically stated that if we weren't carrying, we didn't have to hand it over. I believe the law outlines this as well unless something has changed since '99.

Greg

Hawkmoon
June 7, 2004, 10:03 PM
Most states that require you to notify LEOs at all (some don't require it even when carrying) onlhy require you to notify if you are carrying. The Texas citation seems clear on this ... IF you are carrying ...
It appears she was in violation of the law in this matter. I wouldn't ride without one although I resent being told I have to wear one.
I can't resent being told to wear one because I won't drive the length of a parking lot without. However, I have no problem with other people being required to wear one, for the simple reason that accidents happen. I consider myself both a safe driver and a good driver, but ... accidents happen. If I am involved in an accident which may be partially or completely my fault, I want the occupants of the other vehicle to be injured as little as possible. If that means having the local gendarmerie conduct weeky seatbelt roadblocks, that's fine with me.

BTW -- be thankful your daughter wasn't driving in New York. In the Empire State, seat belts are mandatory but they don't ticket passengers who don't buckle up ... they ticket the driver, and it's a separate infraction for each unbelted occupant.

Deavis
June 7, 2004, 11:21 PM
Gillster is right, you do not have to show the CHL if you are not armed. However, when the cop runs your DL, he will know that you have a CHL because it pops up on your record in the car. That is why they ask you if you are carrying a gun, if you didn't give it up, because you were supposed to surrender it if you were. There is no legal reason to give it over if you are not carrying.


Seatbelt laws, punishing adult citizens for exercising their right to risk their life as they see fit. Nannying on a state-wide level.

nemesis
June 7, 2004, 11:23 PM
Excerpted from the DPS Texas Concealed Handgun laws............

Q: If I am not carrying my handgun, must I still carry my license?

A: No. Under the concealed handgun law, you are only required to
have your license with you whenever you are carrying your handgun.

Hawkmoon
June 8, 2004, 01:37 AM
A minor elaboration on my position regarding seatbelts: In an ideal world, people would not be required to wear seatbelts and motorcyclists (and their passengers) would not be required to wear helmets. However, in this ideal world, those who choose not to wear seatbelts and not to wear helmets on motorcycles would be held accountable for exercising their right to choose.

Thus, in the event I might cause an accident in which someone is seriously injured, and that person (or his/her legal representative, if it came to that) decided to sue me for a zillion dollars because I turned this person into a paraplegic (or vegetable) ... if that person was not using the seatbelts provided in his/her car, or was riding a motorcycle without wearing a helmet, then IMHO if medical experts testify that the extent of the injuries would have been far less severe and far less incapacitating had the person been using the seatbelt or wearing the helmet, then dammit I should be absolved of responsibility on the spot.

It ain't a one-way street. If you want to enjoy the freedom of NOT using common-sense safety equipment, then suck it up and accept the consequences if you get clobbered.

[/Rant Mode]

Brad Johnson
June 8, 2004, 02:59 PM
The bottom line in Texas is...

- If you are carrying you are required to have your CHL with you.

- If you are carrying and an LEO asks to see your CHL you are required to present it.

- If you are stopped by an LEO it is strongly suggested that you present your CHL up front, but you are not required to unless requested.

Brad

westex
June 8, 2004, 09:13 PM
Brad
Are you saying that if I'm stopped for a traffic violation I do not have to show my CHL (assuming I'm carrying) unless asked by the officer? I thought in this case the law required your CHL to be shown at the same time when your DL was requested.

There seems to be some divergence of opinion and to what the law actual requires and what some people think might be proper. What someone thinks might be the thing to do differs a lot of times from what the law actually requires. Is this the case here?

twency
June 8, 2004, 09:49 PM
However, I have no problem with other people being required to wear one, for the simple reason that accidents happen. I consider myself both a safe driver and a good driver, but ... accidents happen. If I am involved in an accident which may be partially or completely my fault, I want the occupants of the other vehicle to be injured as little as possible. If that means having the local gendarmerie conduct weeky seatbelt roadblocks, that's fine with me.

Where does it end? Studies show that five point restraints are more effective than three point restraints. We've already mandated front seat three-pointers because they're more effective than two. Why don't we just mandate five pointers for all seats in all news cars, because ... accidents happen.

While we're at it, howsabout we not allow people to own dangerous toys, like firearms? Why shouldn't we trade a little more liberty for a little more security? We all know that accidents certainly happen with firearms. See my sig.

-twency

_________
"The parent who complained, Karen Young, doesn't want fish-shaped toy guns in her house because she accidentally shot an ex-boyfriend one time when the gun she was beating him with went off."

sevenpoint62mm
June 9, 2004, 12:04 AM
In Texas you have to surrender your CHL card with your DL/Insurance. Period. You don't not have to tell him if you are or are not armed unless he asks but its a good idea to with th elocation and tpye your carrying.

What happens if you don't? Well as soon as he runs your licences he sees this:

***********************************************************
___________________________________________________________
***********************************************************
WARNING WARNING! THIS PERSON HAS A CHL PERMIT IS CONSIDERED ARMED

WARNING WARNING! THIS PERSON HAS A CHL PERMIT IS CONSIDERED ARMED

*************************************************************
_____________________________________________________________
*************************************************************

Its red, flashing, and scares the hell out of a cop even if she's 19 year old blonde princess with pigtails. Its an arrestable offense btw and can get your CHL yanked.

bshepherd
June 9, 2004, 01:02 AM
In Texas you have to present your CHL to an officer if you are carrying. Its also a good idea to tell him where it is. I have done this twice in the last few weeks, handed him my stuff and told him it was under the seat. No problems whatsoever. If you are not carrying you do not have to show him your license. You do not even have to have your license with you. Common sense would dictate that while you are handing over your license and insurance card you also say to him something to the effect, "I'm a CHL holder, but do not have a handgun in my possesion" That will forewarn him to the little warning that pops up when he runs your DL.

Not intended as legal advice, but it makes more sense than what some
f@#&*%g lawyers will tell you

Ben in TX

God Bless Ronald Reagan

westex
June 9, 2004, 01:05 AM
sevenpoint
After posting this thread a couple of days ago I've recieved an education. From reading the actual law it states that ONLY if you are carrying a weapon do you have to present your CHL when asked for your DL. What goes off on the LEOs screen when your DL is inputed is immaterial. And by the way I'm offended if it really does say "Warning Warning! This person has a CHL is considered armed" in red flashing letters. Can anyone varify that this is what is sent out.

I don't see any arrestable offense here nor any danger of having a license revoked.

DJW
June 9, 2004, 01:23 AM
Westex;
you are absolutely right. if not carrying you do not have to inform the officer of the fact that you have a CHL. the last time I did a ride along here in Austin I got to talking to the officer and asked about the "warning" that is supposed to show up on his VDT. he said to go ahead and type in my info and lo and behold it came up with my pertinent info but did NOT even mention the fact that I have a valid CHL. this was about a year ago so they may have updated the system since then. when this happened I had been in possession of a CHL for about 6 years. anyway, seems that mis-information abounds on the internet as always. take care and favor center.
DJW

Hawkmoon
June 9, 2004, 01:25 AM
Westex -

Based on the law as quoted above in this thread, that's correct, and Brad Johnson is incorrect. To further your summary, if you are not carrying a concealed weapon not only do you not have to display your CHL when asked for ID, you don't even need to carry your CHL. In fact, there are valid reasons why if you aren't packin' heat you also should not be packin' the paper that suggests you might be carrying.

westex
June 9, 2004, 02:06 AM
Hawkmoon
You've peaked my curiosity. Why shouldn't you carry your CHL when not packing?

Brad Johnson
June 9, 2004, 04:24 PM
Hawkmoon is right and I am wrong. Accoring to section 411.205, it does indeed state that "...the license holder shall display both the license holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the department and the license holder's handgun license."

So, to amend my summary above

- If you are carrying you are required to have your CHL with you.

- If you are carrying and an LEO asks to see your identification you are required to present your ID and your CHL.

- If you are not carrying you are not required to have your CHL with you, although it is strongly suggested that you present it anyway as a gesture of goodwill and cooperation with the LEO.

Brad

birdv
June 9, 2004, 04:31 PM
Tell the LEO that you are a CHL, because it is going to come up on the computer anyway.

Smoke
June 9, 2004, 05:13 PM
If you are not carrying you are not required to have your CHL with you, although it is strongly suggested that you present it anyway as a gesture of goodwill and cooperation with the LEO.

I hate to be argumentative, but this seems rather pointless.

I can be very cooperative and show goodwill without giving out information that is not necessary. Why incumber the LEO with another ID when it is not needed.

Might just be me.

Smoke

westex
June 9, 2004, 06:10 PM
Smoke
No, it is not just you. I also offer the minimum required by law in all matters, not just CHL matters. I see so reason to allow the powers that be to over step their boundries even a hair. If they become accustomed to getting away with any samll overreach then have a tendency to crank it up a notch when they think they can get away with it.

I don't know how many times I've called some doctors receptionist hand or some government bureaucrats hand regarding a document or SSN they said was required. Did they like it? Nope. Will I do it again? You betcha. You don't have to be rude just know the law and stick to it and make sure the other side does also.

mercedesrules
June 9, 2004, 06:40 PM
I'm suspicious that the state promoted shoulder belts so that the cops could see them. :barf:

Brad Johnson
June 9, 2004, 07:13 PM
Smoke and westex,

Think about it from a tactical standpoint (in terms of psychological tactics, not physical)...

You offer your DL and CHL to the trooper. He says "Are you carrying today?" You say "Not today". The subject is closed and the trooper goes on about his business. You have presented him with no reason to not trust you, and you have made a goodwill gesture that most LEOs will respect and reciprocate.

On the other hand...

You hand the officer your DL only and give them "only the basics". They go back and run your DL and licence plate. The CHL comes up. Now they are wondering why you didn't say anything about it. It raises a red flag and creates a concern that they will want justified. Now you get to suffer through the twenty questions routine.

Scenario one- You have been forthright and made a pro-active gesture of trust and respect. The human response is to reciprocate that trust and respect. The officer will have the information eventually, you have just made their lives easier by giving it to them before they had to go to the trouble of looking it up. You've also presented them with the perfect opportunity to hand you (Mr. Nice Citizen) your DL and CHL back and tell you to "Slow it down and have a nice day", and they will often do just that.

Scenario two - You have created a situation where the officer is now in a reactive situation, which invokes a whole host of negative possibilities in his/her mind. Now it's not an issue of your CHL, it's now an issue of "Why didn't they tell me that before?" Now they are running through all the possibilities in their head. The training will most likely kick in and now they are in a tactically reactive situation instead of a generic traffic stop. Not a good thing, and definitely not something conducive to them wishing you a nice day and sending you on your way.

As always, the best Defense is a good Offense. I've found my CHL to be the next best thing to a Get Out of Ticket Free card when used properly. It's a way to work something to your advantage using information the officer will eventually have anyway. It would be silly not to capitalize on it.

Brad

Hawkmoon
June 10, 2004, 12:54 AM
Westex --

One reason not to carry the permit w/o the gun is ... what happens if you are held up, and the goblin has you empty your pockets? Now he (or his partner) starts pawing through your stuff and finds a handgun license. I doubt he's going to be polite like a cop and ask, "And are you carrying today, Sir?" He's more than likely to assume you are carrying, therefore you are a risk to him, therefore you will be shot on the spot.

Y'all are free to do as you wish. As far as I know, not one single state that recognizes my licenses requires me to carry the license when I'm not carrying the gun, so I NEVER carry the license when I'm not packing.

Brad Johnson
June 10, 2004, 02:23 PM
Now he (or his partner) starts pawing through your stuff and finds a handgun license.

Oh, now that's just silly....

Do you really think if they are pawing through your stuff that they will fail to notice the large lump of gun-shaped metal and plastic attached to your body before they find that teeny little piece of laminated paper?

:)

Safe Shootin'

Brad

Smoke
June 10, 2004, 02:54 PM
What? I'm agreeing with Brad?:what:

Thats a little too far fetched Hawk. If a bad guy has me empty my pockets, he will probably scoop the whole pile up to get the heck out of there and sort it out later.

I'm still in disagreement on the issue of presenting the CHL to a cop when I'm not carrying. Which actually is a moot point as even when I don't have a gun physically on me, there is one in the vehicle somewhere.

Our disagreement might be a reflection of the enviroments we live in even with in the confines of the TX border. Lubbock is more metropolitan than Bosque County, and thats saying something. :D

Regards,

Smoke

Brad Johnson
June 10, 2004, 03:08 PM
What? I'm agreeing with Brad?
REPENT, FOR THE END IS NEAR! :D


Lubbock, metropolitan? Well, we do have a Krispy Kreme now. And Hooters will be opening soon....

Brad

Art Eatman
June 10, 2004, 06:22 PM
A CHL buddy of mine has been stopped four times for excessive enthusiasm with the gas pedal. All four times, he's either gotten off scott-free after a bull session about guns, or gotten the undeserved break of just a warning ticket.

Now, more often than not there's Lil Pet resting all comfy in the console of my truck. Even were I driving around "bare-bottomed", I'd still hand the CHL and the DL to the LEO. I'll take any break I can get.

The SSN deal? That's an issue of identity theft, not "infringement", to me. Any bureaucracy wants "other ID", I happily show them my CHL. Amazing how after a glance at it, an increased level of politeness occurs. I love politeness.

:), Art

Johnny Guest
June 10, 2004, 08:53 PM
sevenpoint62mm wrote: In Texas you have to surrender your CHL card with your DL/Insurance. Period. You don't not have to tell him if you are or are not armed unless he asks but its a good idea to with th elocation and tpye your carrying.

What happens if you don't? Well as soon as he runs your licences he sees this:

***********************************************************
___________________________________________________________
***********************************************************
WARNING WARNING! THIS PERSON HAS A CHL PERMIT IS CONSIDERED ARMED

WARNING WARNING! THIS PERSON HAS A CHL PERMIT IS CONSIDERED ARMED

*************************************************************
____________________________________________________________
*************************************************************

Its red, flashing, and scares the hell out of a cop even if she's 19 year old blonde princess with pigtails. Its an arrestable offense btw and can get your CHL yanked. There’s no use in overstating the situation, even if the truth is less dramatic. Gillster stated it correctly above, in his entry of 7 JUN at 1:30 a.m. CDT - - He quoted directly from Texas Government Code, Section 411.205: IF a license holder is carrying a handgun . . . .

Texas Administrative Code, Title 37, section 6.43, states the same thing, in practically the identical language, under FAILURE TO DISPLAY LICENSE ON DEMAND.

And, if and when the officer runs the driver’s license or state ID card, the computer printout shows: “Notice: This person holds a Concealed Handgun License.” No flashing display, no red letters, no “WARNING WARNING!” with exclamation points. No words, “Is considered armed.” No two lines of capital letters.

I’m going by what the printout shows the agency communications person. I’ve seen a number of these printouts. Some agencies with mobile data terminals in the patrol cars might have their software programmed to make such an overdramatic display, but I haven’t seen it.

And, . . . scares the hell out of a cop even if she's 19 year old blonde princess with pigtails. How would that be? One must be age 21 to even apply for a CHL. Street cops are trained to be careful of EVERYONE they stop. If a person has a CHL, he’s been through a background check by some skeptical State Trooper, and has no criminal record, nor even a pending charge. If anything, the notice tells the cop, “This is a law abiding person who conforms to the law before carrying a pistol.“ I’d be a lot more worried about the person who did NOT have a carry license.

;) Best,
Johnny

westex
June 11, 2004, 01:09 AM
Well put Johnny. Exactly what I was about to say but would have taken a lot longer to say it.

Who's the most worried, the 21 year old CHL pony tailed blonde pulled over at night on some deserted stretch of highway by a car with blinking lights while she remains seated and some guy approaching from the rear with his hand resting on the butt of a semi or a 35 year old LEO whose screen just showed the stopped occupant(s) ahead has been checked out by the FBI, passed tests, and is a all round swell guy ,etc.?

Personally I'm not very concerned about getting a ticket as I long ago learned saving a couple of minutes just aint worth the hassle. Life's too short to end it wrapped around a telephone pole.

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