Private Transfer of Firearm Between Two People in Different States


PDA






Jayman
June 7, 2004, 01:53 PM
Hey Guys, quick question...

I want to sell a pistol to a guy that doesn't live in my state. It is legal for me to own it and sell it in my state, and it is legal for him to own it and buy it in his state. Does this have to go through a FFL? If not, how do I legally ship it to the fellow?

If you enjoyed reading about "Private Transfer of Firearm Between Two People in Different States" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
armoredman
June 7, 2004, 02:01 PM
FFL, unless it is C&R eligible, and BOTH of you have valid C&R FFLs. Crossing state lines is a Fed thing, so they get to mandate the FFL to FFL trnasfer. Go to your local shop, where there is at least one knowledgable person, and ask how they do it, and the cost. He will need to send them a signed in ink copy of the destination licensee FFL before the sender can ship it.

Graystar
June 7, 2004, 02:15 PM
At the very least you must go through an FFL in the buyer's state. If you can't take the pistol to the FFL, due to distance or state law, then you must ship it overnight to the FFL. Federal law allows you to ship it. Have the buyer pick an FFL and have the FFL mail you a signed copy of his license. Once you have that in hand you can mail the gun, but only to the address on the license.

Good luck.

gyp_c2
June 7, 2004, 02:42 PM
If that's so, is the sale of a handgun to an out-of-state resident possible in a state other than their own?
Say...from an FFL directly to an out of state resident? ?

Of course, assuming the buyer is not prohibited already, just a sale directly from an FFL to an out of state buyer?!

...sorry for the hi-jack, but it sounds like it's the same?

g2

Henry Bowman
June 7, 2004, 02:59 PM
gyp: No it's not the same. what you propose _may_ be OK between some states for longguns, but never for handguns (according to federal law - GCA '68). The FFL delivering the handgun to the purchaser must be in the same state as the residence of the purchaser.

Fly320s
June 7, 2004, 03:04 PM
A person can buy a handgun only in the state of his residence.

I guess I would be more correct to say that a person may only fill out the form (if any) and take possession of the handgun in his state of residence.

For instance: I live in Tennessee, but I bought a pistol from a dealer in Washington state. To do that legally I had to have the pistol sent to a FFL dealer in TN who then hand me fill out the form and pay the transfer fee and tax before I could take possession.

It would not be legal for me to go to Washington state to buy the handgun and take possession of it while in Washington.

Graystar
June 7, 2004, 03:07 PM
Say...from an FFL directly to an out of state resident?
No. A non-licensee must get a handgun from an FFL in his state of residence. There are a couple of very specific exceptions, but that's the general rule.

When you talk about firearms you have to separate the purchase from the delivery. Anyone can sell anything to anyone else. The issues arise when transferring the item to the buyer. There simply is no legal interstate transfer of firearms between non-licensees. FFLs will do it for you and simply charge a fee for the service.

jamz
June 7, 2004, 03:42 PM
Stupid question- are the forms you have to fill out state, or federal? When I bought my handguns from the gun store, I thought I filled out a state form. When I sold them to my Dad (who lives in the same state with me), same state form.

Do all states have forms? Even the ones with no registration? I'm confused. What stops Joe A from selling Joe B a handgun when they meet face to face, but Joe B is from across the state line? Or is this arrangement a violation of federal laws, but there is nothing to really enforce it?

-James

:confused:

Hkmp5sd
June 7, 2004, 04:48 PM
Under federal laws, a non-licensee may ship the firearm directly to a FFL in the buyer's state of residence. The buyer then does the paperwork at the FFL and takes possession of the firearm.

A non-licensee is not required to get a copy of the FFL's license prior to shipping. It is enough that the seller believes he is shipping the firearm to a licensed dealer. Some non-licensees like to get a copy of the FFL for some added proof, but it is not needed and some FFLs will not send a copy of their license to a non-licensee.

Or is this arrangement a violation of federal laws, but there is nothing to really enforce it?

No federal forms, merely illegal if caught somehow.

When I bought my handguns from the gun store, I thought I filled out a state form.
Some states may require some forms when purchasing a firearm, but the primary form is federal (4473) if buying from a licensed dealer.

Graystar
June 7, 2004, 05:22 PM
Just backing up what Hkmp5sd said...as a non-licensee you aren't required to get a copy of the license. It's just good sense to do so to protect yourself. The fact that you believed you were shipping to an FFL will not save your butt if it turns out he wasn't an FFL. I've never had a problem getting a license sent to me. I'd be wary of anyone that balks at sending one...especially if they're charging for receiving the gun...I mean, these kinds of tasks are what the transferee is paying for!

patentnonsense
June 7, 2004, 05:35 PM
As I understand it, it is illegal to buy out-of-state.
However, if a traveller legally possesses a handgun in a foreign state, does federal law forbid him from selling it in that state, to a resident of that state?

Thanks,

Hkmp5sd
June 7, 2004, 06:26 PM
Yep.

patentnonsense
June 7, 2004, 06:36 PM
Yep.

Cite please?

sumpnz
June 7, 2004, 07:03 PM
OK, here's a related question. What about private party face to face trandfers. E.G. I want to buy my FIL's EBR, bolt action hunting rifle, and one of his myriad of pistols. I live in AZ, he lives in OR. I will be seeing him over Christmas. I hand him cash, and he hands me the firearms. I put them in the trunk of my car and drive home at the end of the vacation. Anything illegal about all of that? Oh, and there will be at least some time spent in CA on the way home beyond just "passing through" (wine country, visit aunt and uncle, maybe Redwoods, Yosemite, etc). Guns would stay in the trunk the whole time in a pad-locked hardshell case, no ammo of any sort in the vehicle.

Hkmp5sd
June 7, 2004, 07:13 PM
Cite please?

§ 178.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees.
No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides:

I live in AZ, he lives in OR. I will be seeing him over Christmas. I hand him cash, and he hands me the firearms. I put them in the trunk of my car and drive home at the end of the vacation. Anything illegal about all of that?

Yep. See 178.30 above.

sumpnz
June 7, 2004, 07:44 PM
D@mn. So I suppose that means that to keep it legal, if I buy the guns, I'd have to have them shipped to my FFL in AZ and have him do the transfer. Hrmph. More money.

Thanks for the info.

jamz
June 7, 2004, 08:53 PM
Thanks for the info. It seems clear to me now.

However, from the wording of that law, it seems that if the seller does not know or suspect that the sellee is from out of state, it is not actually illegal.

But just to be on the safe side, I'm not gonna test it.




-James

patentnonsense
June 7, 2004, 09:47 PM
Clear enough - thanks MP5!

Some have suggested that "reside" in this section does not necessarily mean "permanently reside," but I'd hate to stake my life on that theory.

veloce851
June 7, 2004, 10:05 PM
what about this senario..
gift to a direct relative...would this transaction have to be handled through an FFL?

CB900F
June 7, 2004, 11:36 PM
Fella's;

If you think the issue is "more money", I disagree. I believe the issue is 'more information'. Or, if you think that because the law says they can't keep permanent records, they don't - then I do have some very attractively priced bottom land for sale.

Just because it's legal, doesn't mean it's right. Just because it's illegal, doesn't mean it's wrong. Or do you let your elected representative define your personal morality?

900F

gyp_c2
June 8, 2004, 02:28 AM
...That helps...I'm clear on the handgun transfer.
I am wondering about having a corporation in; AND now residing in another state, even though I still maintain a drivers license from my home state?
Does that change the ability to purchase handguns in the state that I have both a corporation and a residence?

...I hate this ????...

BluesBear
June 8, 2004, 08:10 AM
If a person resides in multile states, such as State A in the winter and State B in the summer, then they may lawfully purchase a handgun in each state only during the times they are actually residing in those states. In other words, you can buy a handgun in State A in the winter but not State B.

I live in AZ, he lives in OR. I will be seeing him over Christmas. I hand him cash, and he hands me the firearms. I put them in the trunk of my car and drive home at the end of the vacation. Anything illegal about all of that? Hell Yes. Several things actually. Don't do it.

jdege
June 8, 2004, 08:51 AM
Hey, guys.

You're getting it all wrong.

It's easy, and perfectly legal, to transfer a handgun to the resident of another state.

All you need to do is to die, and leave it to him in your will.

EOD Guy
June 8, 2004, 09:15 AM
Hey, guys.

You're getting it all wrong.

It's easy, and perfectly legal, to transfer a handgun to the resident of another state.

All you need to do is to die, and leave it to him in your will.

True, but you can only do it once.:D

sumpnz
June 8, 2004, 12:57 PM
BluesBear, aside from 178.30, what other violations would that entail. If I had to I could skip CA on the drive home (go through eastern OR to NV, then straight into AZ). Assume that the handguns were taken out of the equation too.

900F - If I was worried about the .gov having info on me, I wouldn't have a security clearance, post here, or have bought 2 guns (more planned) from licensed dealers. Between all that, the last thing I'm worried about is the .gov getting a bit more info on me. So for me the issue in this case is "more money" becuase I'd have to ship the guns to my FFL, and then pay the transfer fee (fortunatly he'd only charge $20 total).Just because it's legal, doesn't mean it's right. Just because it's illegal, doesn't mean it's wrong. Or do you let your elected representative define your personal morality? No, I don't let my elected reps define my morality, but I'm not in a position where I think my best course of action is to openly defy a law in hopes of getting it nullified by the courts.

Persnickety
June 8, 2004, 01:15 PM
So if my sister in a different state gives me her old gun next time I visit, she and I are both technically in legal trouble?

Graystar
June 8, 2004, 01:26 PM
So if my sister in a different state gives me her old gun next time I visit, she and I are both technically in legal trouble? That's right.

jdege
June 8, 2004, 02:13 PM
So if my sister in a different state gives me her old gun next time I visit, she and I are both technically in legal trouble?

Yep.

But what the law says is one thing, what can be enforced is another.

When did your sister get the gun? Did you live in the same state then? What record exists to prove that she didn't give you the gun then?

Since the law requires that all interstate transfers go through an FFL, I don't in any way mean to suggest that you shouldn't go through an FFL on such a transfer.

But if you didn't, you'd be unlikely to be prosecuted.

Persnickety
June 8, 2004, 02:30 PM
o boy.

Technically, she probably gave it to me about 10 years ago, "but you have to learn how to shoot before you can have it."

So did she just pack it accidentally?

But I'm not tough/stupid/heroic (circle your choice) enough to get into a federal battle over what can be used in an indictmment vs what will get a conviction vs what they will not bother to enforce.

It seems a shame (to put it mildly) that the feds think my sister and I don't know each other well enough to trade guns. I suspect that would apply to my mom as well - my goodness.

WilderBill
June 8, 2004, 02:31 PM
Not that I would advocate breaking any laws, but if there is no paperwork involved, you know who you are dealing with, etc, a private sale should be possible.
The key to that is, of course, to make sure that you keep it entirely private!

Graystar
June 8, 2004, 03:22 PM
Also note that the transfer laws don’t apply to the loan or rental of a firearm. The law says “for temporary use…” but hey, temporary is a relative term…isn’t it? :D

If you enjoyed reading about "Private Transfer of Firearm Between Two People in Different States" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!