[garrettwc]

I subscribe to one of those website of the day email lists. Today I got a link to a history site that described all the characteristics of being a gentleman at the turn of the century. It covered clothing, how to "call" on someone properly, and other aspects of gentlemanly conduct.

I ran across this quote:

"It is the duty of a gentleman to know how to ride, to shoot, to fence, to box, to swim, to row and to dance. He should be graceful. If attacked by ruffians, a man should be able to defend himself, and also to defend women from their insults"

It is an excerpt from this book - Houghton, Walter R. et al. Rules of etiquette and home culture or what to do and how to do it. Chicago, 1886. Rand, McNally & Co

Sort of a turn of the century Miss Manners.

So to the anti gun folks I say "Sir, you are no gentleman":D

Tip o' the hat to the ladies and fresh ammo for all.

[Hardtarget]

Kind of sad to think that we've lost the idea of what a man should be, isn't it? Too much emphasis on the "gentle" side. Even a coin has two sides... man is much more complicated. Wonder what happened?
Mark.

[10-Ring]

It's ashame that being "Old Fashioned" is out of style! :scrutiny:

[Wilhelm]

Darn it!!!!! I have no clue how to row. :banghead:



:Wilhelm

[sm]

Old fart in training here...and only nearing 48.

I do what I was taught and raised to do. Sometimes I'm in 'vogue' sometimes I'm not...I don't care.

Raised with guns, shooting, hunting, ethics, morals and values...all rolled into one, not gonna change, don't care if not "PC". Way I see it the vigilant responsible gun owner has always been the best representative of society--regardless of gender.

[Skunkabilly]

"It is the duty of a gentleman to know how to ride, to shoot, to fence, to box, to swim, to row and to dance. He should be graceful. If attacked by ruffians, a man should be able to defend himself, and also to defend women from their insults"


OK I can't dance, fence, box, row ride or swim very well. But I can shoot!

[sanchezero]

I can do all that stuff just fine, but I submit that I am no gentleman :D .

[jmbg29]

En garde! Beat, beat, parry, feint, riposte,LUNGE!

Now y'all can fence. Unless they meant the chain-link kind.:confused: :neener:

Can't dance to save my life. Arrgh!:o:evil:

[sm]

Dancin' huh...Baptist's can't dance...

We can hold close, nibble necks and ears, whisper sweet nothing's , make 'em feel special. Pull out the chair when seating, and get a cool drink when return from dance floor.

This, and them knowing you carry CCW...they forget you stepped on toes...;)

[Blackhawk]

Good find! :neener:

[Jim March]

Tamara put it best on TFL:

"It is the mark of a true gentleman to always provide covering fire while a lady reloads."

:p

[Azrael256]

Garrettwc, could you post a link to the site? I would very much like to read it.

[4570Rick]

Funny...

The more advanced we become as a civilization,

The less civilized we become as an advanced nation. :(

A tip of the hat to the ladies and a firm hand shake to the gents.:)

[Pendragon]

My wife and I lament the loss of those values.

A truly civilized man knows how to behave in a variety of situations from the formal social occasion to the woods and even to personal combat.

These days, we have people thinking that they should choose one facet and simply display that at all times. This has led to an oversupply of thugish behavior and people who are crude or overly prim all the time.

I admit I am not the very model of a modern major gentleman, but my wife says she thinks me the most civilized of men. I can put the baby to sleep, fix computers, cook, shoot, write, as well as pick out clothes and help her with interior decorating projects.

We hope to raise our son to be strong and bold and unafraid to fight - and yet we want him to be compassionate and educated and artistic and otherwise well rounded.

We like to say we are seeking a renaisance life style. Maybe someday we will find it.

[Pendragon]

It just occurred to me -

Often, the warrior classes are among the most civilized and educated.

The knights, the samourai, I would imagine many of the Roman and Grecian cultures as well.

Yet our society is trying to seperate the fighting element from the modern idea of what it means to be civilized.

The mistake the capacity for violence with the propensity towards it. I think all men are capable of violence and destruction - yet proper rearing and training develops men who are excellent soldiers and excellent people who understand that violence is always the last resort.

The irony may turn out to be that their concepts of making men "non violent" may turn out to simply make them unpredictable and extremely dangerous.

[4570Rick]

We hope to raise our son to be strong and bold and unafraid to fight - and yet we want him to be compassionate and educated and artistic and otherwise well rounded.

May I suggest Home Schooling kind sir.;)

[dinosaur]

When the movie Titanic was all the rage, someone pointed out that real gentlemen of the time would have risked their lives for those less fortunate than them. I`m referring to the scene where the steerage passengers were locked below decks.

John Jacob Astor would be considered a gentlemen by the standards you quote.

The actor who played the gentlemen was a good villain though.:)

[Matt G]

I can beat attack, pary, lunge, reposte, flesh, and even moulinet on occasion. I like to think that I can shoot purt' fair. My boxing is clumsy, but apparently effective. My swimming is similarly effective, evidenced by the fact that I've not yet drowned. I can ride anything clearly intended to be ridden, excepting perhaps a unicycle. I can row and paddle. Defending an attack seems okay.

But I can't salsa to save my life. :(

[foghornl]

Well, I cant "fence" or dance very well, but you should see the milk jugs tremble when I "Fix Bayonets......Charge!!!" on either the M-1 or the M-44..:neener:

Thanks, Mr. March for the reminder on Tamara's quote from TFL, regarding "true gentlemen providing covering fire while a Lady reloads"

[MrAcheson]

Baptist's can't dance...

Some Baptist's can't dance, my church had its annual singles dinner-dance on saturday. Usually opens some peoples eyes when they see Baptists dancing. What can I say we like to shake people up.

[mattk]

Well I have all but one. I just dont know how to fence.

[hawk0484]

We have 3 sons who have never been to public school. The most frequent comments I get about them are:
1) Wow! Your sons can carry on an intelligent conversation with people of any age.
2) Your sons have such nice manners.

Homeschooling allows you the input in your children's lives to accomplish the goals you have for them. Our sons are 20, 17, & 13, and I have NO regrets about homeschooling them.

And yes, they all shoot!

[MitchSchaft]

Wonder what happened?

'Tis called Feminism. Women wanting to be "equal". Now things are harder than they had to be. :uhoh:

[garrettwc]

Here's the link to those who would like to see how much we have changed in 100 years(and not always for the better as some have pointed out):

http://www.lahacal.org/gentleman/

It is true what was said about the warriors, and how well educated they were in things other than fighting skills.

Some things that have been lost as a result of modernization -

good penmanship (especially with a good fountain pen)
proper use of the english language
decorum in general
dressing to go out

To those of you that mentioned home schooling, please PM me off board. I am giving this serious consideration for my son starting this year and would love some input. Thanks.

[TheFrontRange]

I tried to cut-and-paste Pendragon's entire post here but my PC wouldn't let me...

...so if you didn't get it the first time, PLEASE go back and re-read it.

Sir, I am going to memorize your comments. They very well-say some similar meanderings I've had in my own head for the last few days about society in general.

You're a gentleman AND a scholar... :)

[M1911]

It is the duty of a gentleman to know how to ride, to shoot, to fence, to box, to swim, to row and to dance.Never ridden a horse. I can shoot. Used to do a little fencing (foil only), but that was 20 years ago. Never boxed. I can swim. I can row (badly). Can't dance a lick. I told my wife 11+ years ago that I'd dance at our wedding. I did, so I've fulfilled my lifetime requirement of dancing.

[Betty]

-sigh-

These days, being a "man" seems to mean owning a fast red car, wearing slick designer clothes, and playing video games while mommy cooks Mac n' Cheese.

The only two men I can think of offhand who still open car doors for women are Oleg and madmike. Alot of women think it's against their feminist wills to have men open car doors, so the decline of the "traditional man" can be partially blamed on that. Changing times are another - people don't seem to care to fence and row anymore - they're "old fashioned" - it's more "cool" to play video games.

factoid: did you know Oleg Volk learned ballroom dancing as a kid? :p

"Teach me!"
"I don't remember, it was a long time ago!"
"Well you'd better remember quick, pal! I wanna feel romanced! Here, clench this rose between your teeth."
:D

If an able-bodied male isn't willing to defend himself and insists that others do it for him, he isn't a man in my book.

[Steve Smith]

Now I have BUILT a fence, but I don't fence.


I can't dance.

[BenW]

The only two men I can think of offhand who still open car doors for women are Oleg and madmike.
That's because they didn't read the story below. I've actually been cussed at for holding a door open for a lady (just some stranger at the store) but I figure if I'm gonna get cussed out, I might as well hear it for being polite instead of being rude.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=594&ncid=594&e=19&u=/nm/20030211/hl_nm/chivalry_sexism_dc

[Bulldozer]

"It is the duty of a gentleman to know how to ride, to shoot, to fence, to box, to swim, to row and to dance. He should be graceful. If attacked by ruffians, a man should be able to defend himself, and also to defend women from their insults"

I can say that I have not abandoned the manners that were taught to me by my folks and granfolks from Georgia. That also being said, I can do all the above. It is still a shock after having come North (Maryland) almost a decade ago to see the lack of manners and social graces.

I am disgusted by what passes for "manhood" these days. I must also concur with the fine observations made by previous posters regarding the ability versus the propensity of violence.

If we look back at culture, we find enlightened, educated, codified rules of life and law from the gladiators in Rome, the Janissaries in Turkey, the Landesknechts in Teutonic Germany, to the feudal knights, to the samurai and bushido in Japan. The Gaucho in the Pampas also had rules to live by. We also must not forget the Souhtern Gentleman. The British also were civilized and well-mannered, but knew how to fight and defend home and hearth.

In this modern world, we seem to have surrendered our humanity, our manners to the anonymous numbers and clicks of databases and machines. I take great joy and pride in opening a car door or an office door for a lady -- of any age, looks, race, dimensions. It ain't about the lady. It is about me and my ability to add a little social lubricant to get society to run along with a few less groans. I have given up my seat on public transportation to the elderly, veterans, women, and injured people. I would not dream of having a lady in my company be cold or wet on an outing , and have loaned my jacket out.

And yes, the wife and I have practiced providing covering fire while the other reloads. We've even gone so far as to carry the same handguns for ammo compatibility.

And as for that article, I'd expect as much from an Ivory Tower. My manners and chivalrious behavior in no way, shape, form, or manner is meant to demean, injure, or otherwise harm a lady. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the female gender.

[Beorn]

<Ahem>
"It is the duty of a gentleman to know how to ride, to shoot, to fence, to box, to swim, to row and to dance. He should be graceful. If attacked by ruffians, a man should be able to defend himself, and also to defend women from their insults"

Well, let's see. I learned to ride as a boy in Oklahoma (not much else to do out there). I've been shooting for a far bit of time. I have taught fencing in the past (sabre and epee only, not much of a foil fencer). I have both boxed and kick-boxed. I learned to swim in the North Sea off the Northern Coast of Scotland (it was about half-a-centimeter cold <ahem>). I've used a row boat maybe 3 times in my life, but I have used the rowing machine at the gym! Reckon that counts? I have, unfortunately, had dancing instruction (theater training).

Hmm, I must be a gentleman.

Naw, probably not...:D

May I suggest Home Schooling kind sir.

You know, as a public school teacher, I should disagree with that comment. But I do not. The most well behaved students I have ever taught were home-schooled until high school. As I have always said to every parent of every "difficult" student, "the 55 minutes per day I spend with your child can in no way compete with the several hours per day you're supposed to spend with your child. Your job is to instruct morals; mine to instruct ethics. You say 'Thou shalt not kill.' And I am to say 'murder is against the law.' Only by working together can we make this child a valuable and productive member of society."

And about 30 seconds later, that parent recovers from the glassy-eyed stare and asks me, "huh? You mind speedin' things up? I gotta get home. My baby's daddy is gonna be on Cops again!"

Well, I figure, by the time they get to me, they've either made it or not. But I do all that I can...

Every day teaching public school is something like this --> :banghead:

[Harold Mayo]

It seems that in all cultures that are in the process of advancing (CULTURALLY, that is)...in strong and vibrant societies...that being a "man" usually entails knowing a variety of things as was mentioned in the post. The thread that runs through them is that a "man" knows how to respond to a variety of situations in an appropriate manner. "Appropriate", in this case, meaning taking control in one way or another.

A healthy society does not idolize men who don't fit that mold. In every society on the downhill slide, it seems that these "virtues" go by the wayside and other attributes come to the fore as being desirable.

I am fortunate in that I know how to do all of those things other than dance (I'm fudging and letting escrima training count as fencing). My wife thinks that I am masculine in the classic sense and that gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling. :scrutiny:

It seems that many people in our society DO NOT think that many of these skills are worthwhile. What exactly IS valued in our society today...?

Time for a new thread...:D

[ENC]

Now I can't fence a bit. I might be able to fake it a bit though.

I try not to dance, but will if a lady asks....they usually don't ask twice.

I do try to do everything that I was taught growing up though. I am polite around strangers. And under no circumstances will I be sitting down if a lady is looking for a spot to rest her feet.

[ahenry]

Um, these are a list of important skills for a gentleman of that time period to possess. I don’t see it suggesting that a male that can do those things is somehow made a gentleman...



(For the record I can do each of them)

[Jim March]

I have to disagree with Pendragon re: the Samurai. Within their own class, yes, they had a set of "manners" and "culture". But they were elevated above other classes for too long, and acted like absolute barbarians of the worst order to "lesser" social classes.

Example: there was a single word in Japanese to describe the practice of testing the edge on your new sword by hacking up the first peasant that walked by. :barf:

Intolerable.

[garrettwc]

Um, these are a list of important skills for a gentleman of that time period to possess. I don’t see it suggesting that a male that can do those things is somehow made a gentleman...

Well you have to take it in the context of the whole website. You are correct that it is a list of skills that a gentleman should possess. The remainder of that site is dedicated to mannerisms, proper dress, and such.

Of course someone could possess the skills and still be a horses you know what.

In the context of my post, I was pointing out that during that time, having arms, and being skilled in their use, was considered as important a social skill as knowing which fork to use at a fancy dinner party.

My how times have changed.

[Jim March]

As to "the list"...lesse, I'm not sure I'd call it "fencing" if the grip is over a foot long and I've got both hands on it :). Other than that, I can maybe hold my own. (I wonder what the reaction would be at a late 18th century duel if you strapped on a Katana, in the proper edge-up mount?)

Ditto the "boxing" thing, there's gonna be some side-stepping, grappling, kickin' and stompin' going on :D.

Dancing: oh no. Let's not EVEN go there. You'd be able to measure the results on a Richter scale :banghead:.

Riding: sure, I do that just fine. Even if it's got a kickstart. But LEGS? YagottabeKIDDING!

Boats/rowing: yup, got that covered. Including oars, white water, weird exploits. Grew up around small boats taken way too far out into the Pacific for sanity :). I can get a 12ft rowboat onto a beach with 8ft surf going on, 3 tries outta 4. The fourth, I'll keep the thing from tipping at least, and drag it back to the beach while swimming. Didn't even dump the fishing rods out. WHILE my dad was yelling at me to just get my butt to shore, from shore where he'd already swum to. :p I was...lesse, 17 I think.

Swim: adequate. Not great, but good cold-water insulation. Sigh.

Attacked by ruffians: been there, done that, still around. Adequate.

Graceful: :scrutiny: :uhoh:

Defend a lady's honor: verbal, she's on her own. Call me modern to at least that degree. Physical, she ain't. On her own, that is.

[CatsDieNow]

'Tis called Feminism. Women wanting to be "equal". Now things are harder than they had to be. I am insulted. Which of you fine gentlemen will defend me from this ruffian? :D

I do think that we romanticizing the past. Social problems are not a recent invention:

"Youth today love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority, no respect for older people, and talk nonsense when they should be working. Young people do not stand up any longer when adults enter the room. They contradict their parents, talk too much in company, guzzle their food, lay their legs on the table and tyrannize their elders." -- Socrates

[Country Boy]

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
- Robert Heinlein -

[AZTOY]

Introduction to Fencing



http://www.fencing101.com/intro.php

:neener: :neener: :D

[MitchSchaft]

I am insulted.

That was not directed at you or anyone in this time frame :neener:

[Pendragon]

Jim,

It was not my intent to paint the samourai as nice people. Certainly you must realize that we are examining their actions through the lense of hundreds of years of progress and advancement in the area of human rights and the inestimable value of the individual. These concepts were as foreign to them as the computer.

My point was that in many cultures, the warrior class has often been taken with pursuits besides bloodletting. Many samourai were taken with flower arranging, writing poetry, music and other such pursuits.

In our culture today, especially among what some would call the "under class", the men are portrayed as unfeeling, thuggish, and single faceted - interested only in sex, money and image.

At the same time, we have the modern notion of the "sensitive man". He is not afraid of the color pink. He is uncomfortable with violence and goes out of his way to avoid appearing oppressive to anyone. Think Woody Allen.

I am saying that a true gentleman should be able to do most of the things on Heinlins list. Those skills encompass pretty much the scope of human behavior:

Caring for the physical needs of an infant
High level military planning
Practical skills in acquiring and processing food
Preparing and maintaining a vessel
Architecture which is both science and art
Poetry which requires artistic nuance and linguistic prowess
Keeping books requires sticking to a concrete system of accounting
Building a wall requires practical use of tools and physical strength
Comforting the dying requires the abstract skill of compassion

On and on it goes outlining almost every combination of the concrete, the practical, the abstract, art, science, self reliance and social interaction.

Yet today, we are told we need only to know how to get along and not offend people, etc...

[Skunkabilly]

I can shoot, play the banjo, fix a computer, solve a Rubik's cube, land a plane and design a webpage though!

Can't say I open the door for women. A lot that I used to associate with are hypersensitive and think you're coming on to them if you're friendly. Like I'd have ANY interest in a girl that's afraid of an inanimate chunk of plastic and steel! :rolleyes:

[jmbg29]

Pendragon, amen!

[spacemanspiff]

if by "swimming" they mean 'can float on the water', i've got that covered. dont got no interest in fencing though. i'm pretty sure i could handle rowing. i dont box, but neither do i get in fist fights, and if i had to, i'm a grappler, not a striker. i dont ride, but i wouldnt mind learning. cant dance either. have no interest, probably because i'm not trying to impress any of the ladies.

and if by "shoot", they mean 'can pull the trigger', then i'm on top of that one too.


personally, i've never really tried to be a 'gentleman'. i can be nice and considerate if the situation calls for it, but i will never go out of my way to open a door for a lady, or do any other activity that is the human equivalent of preening or strutting. either people like me for who i am, rather than what i do. its been my experience that those who like when a man acts like a gentleman are the romantic prissy submissive type. and i dont dig that at all.

[4v50 Gary]

Does over 50% count? I can ride (without falling off), use to fence (can't get up after I lunge - too old & slow), shoot (still do), box (OK, it was a martial arts system) and swim (fat helps you float, doesn't it?). I can't row (except in circles), dance ("bomben machen, kein tanze" - make bombs, don't dance) and as for graceful, well, look at how my shoe heels wear and you can tell I'm anything but. Guess that puts me in the gutter category. :)

So what am I? Genre Homoslobicus Americanus - the sloppy American male (and proud of it).

[justice4all]

Why fence when you're packing heat?

[Pendragon]

My guess is that fencing was more for settling disputes - or at least ideally.

Pistols are not for settling disputes, they are for causing an assailant to cease aggressive action.

[Trisha]

Susan and I can fulfill the prerequisites, including Heinlin's - as long as we're not limited to foils/sabers - as we use Katanas.

And we both very graciously open doors for men, much to their consternation. Any receiving such a courtesy who lets slip a sarcastic remark finds the door shutting apon them, too. . .

I wouldn't dream of addressing the feminist concept here, not Rush's "feminazi's" as both are pecular defenses of male privilege and inappropriate to civil discourse. That the genders are completely equal is a given; and may we see the day soon dawn where a woman's work is equally valued and compensated to equal labors from a male.

Perhaps the social degredation from the classical definition of the gentleman can be laid to mass media stereotyping and targeted marketing?

Always;
Trisha

[seeker_two]

"It is the duty of a gentleman to know how to ride, to shoot, to fence, to box, to swim, to row and to dance. He should be graceful. If attacked by ruffians, a man should be able to defend himself, and also to defend women from their insults"

Done 'em all. What next? :D

[Pendragon]

Rush's "feminazi's" as both are pecular defenses of male privilege and inappropriate to civil discourse.

The term, coined by Rush, has a very specific and very narrow definition.

Are you aware of that? It really, in my view, has little or nothing to do with sexism or feminism or any of that...

[garrettwc]

Another way of putting it.

chiv·al·ry (n. pl. chiv·al·ries ) - The qualities idealized by knighthood, such as bravery, courtesy, honor, and gallantry toward women.

Trisha, I agree with your statement, in as much as I feel that true equality is achieved when a person succeeds by the merits of their own hard work, and not by being the "proper victim" to further the agenda of some group that claims to have their best interests in mind.

[Monkeyleg]

"It is the duty of a gentleman to know how to ride, to shoot, to fence, to box, to swim, to row and to dance. He should be graceful. If attacked by ruffians, a man should be able to defend himself, and also to defend women from their insults"
------------------------------------------------------------------------


1. It's been some time since I've been in the saddle, but I'm sure the skill would come back.

2. My shooting is better than most and worse than many.

3. Does knowing how to throw a bayonet count?

4. Boxing, no. Kicking, grabbing, punching--yes.

5. I was on the swim team for awhile.

6. Spent my summers in a rowboat.

7. Does doing the polka to the Rolling Stones "Jumpin' Jack Flash" qualify as dancing?



It was ingrained in me to open doors for women and my elders, to say "please" and "thank you," to give up my seat to those less sturdy, and to use polite language (except when around scruffians like myself). I'm still amazed at the reactions from those for whom I hold the door. Every so often, an elderly woman will remark that it's been a long time since a man's held a door for her. :(

[ahenry]

Trisha,
That the genders are completely equal is a given; and may we see the day soon dawn where a woman's work is equally valued and compensated to equal labors from a male.Perhaps you could enlighten us about this “glass ceiling” of which you speak? Keep in mind several individuals amongst us are not exactly novices in the realm of economics. Allow me to also add a qualified agreement to your first comment. If by the term equal you mean of equivalent worth and value and contributions to “society”, then I wholeheartedly agree. If by equal you mean both genders are the same except some biological parts, then I most wholeheartedly disagree. I want to agree with you, but I’m not totally sure what you meant.

Garrettwc,
In the context of my post, I was pointing out that during that time, having arms, and being skilled in their use, was considered as important a social skill as knowing which fork to use at a fancy dinner party. I’m with you. I was mainly referring to the two pages worth of posts of people saying they can do these things thereby implying they were gentlemen. I’m certainly not implying the people posting to this thread aren’t gentlemen, just that their skill set isn’t what makes them one.

[Trisha]

ahenry:
I spoke of social valuation, both in the economic realm as well as the cultural anthropological domain. That there is a joyful difference existentially between men and women is something I celebrate with enthusiasm - I just flinch at the patriarchial Western Civilization.
I see the continuance of the glass ceiling as a short-term revenant of uglier times, with some few remaining bastions soon to be invalidated with the passage of at most another generation.

More unites us than could divide us simply because we are learning the value of substantive diversity amongst inherent equals as a principle fundamental to our Republic's intuitive strength.

Trisha

[Zander]

The only two men I can think of offhand who still open car doors for women are Oleg and madmike. -- ROTL I suppose that would be bacause I've never had the opportunity to do so for you. You have my assurance that my intentions would have everything to do with my superior upbringing and nothing to do with your ever-present armamentarium. LOL!

[bigjim]

That the genders are completely equal is a given; and may we see the day soon dawn where a woman's work is equally valued and compensated to equal labors from a male.

Not true at all. The sexes are not equal at all. In fact they are very very different. The only way in which the sexes are equal is in over all value to the survival of mankind.

Take a average woman and a average man they differ in body mass, brain mass, reproductive functions, food needs, life span
facial hair. In fact almost nothing is the same. ANYONE that thinks men and women are equal is not looking at the world as it really is.

At a point in time when a womens work is as valuable as a mans then it will be compensated as such. Wages are market driven. Are you waiting for a man to say ok Honey here is your money? If your really equal, why don't you force us evil men to give you your money? Why do you need men to agree to it if your REALLY the same as men?

Men have always taken what advantages we enjoy. When you (females) can manage to assert yourselves and take those advantages for yours THEN you will be able to lay claim to being equal! What are you waiting for? Want some man to give you permission?

Nope sorry words mean things. Two things can not be different and equal at the same time. They can have equal value, but that does not make them equal.

Through out history women have lived at the mercy of men. That is less true now than it ever has been. If things get really rough for mankind again.....just watch how fast things swing back the other way.

[Zander]

That the genders are completely equal is a given; Genders? [what happened to basic English grammar?]

In what context?

The sexes, male and female, are born equal as human beings despite a crucial biological distinction.

Vive la difference!

Any other definition, PC or otherwise, entails the eventual end of Homo sapiens sapiens.

I just flinch at the patriarchial Western Civilization.You do?!?

Western Civilization is demonstrably the greatest the world has ever known. And the constitutional republic inculcated by the United States of America is the best governance the world has known for the entirety of recorded human history. Wouldn't you agree?

[CatsDieNow]

Bigjim, your ignorance is astounding. I will not throw gasoline on your flame.

(You guys wondered a while back why there weren't more women here - posts like this are why).

[M1911]

These days, being a "man" seems to mean owning a fast red car, wearing slick designer clothes, and playing video games while mommy cooks Mac n' Cheese.My car's fast, but silver. Slick designer clothes? I'm a software developer -- jeans, a turtleneck, and a wool shirt this time of year. Jeans and T-shirts in the summer. Video games? Yup, play those too.

But I do most of the cooking in the house. On Saturday I tried a new recipe, Cod baked over mushrooms and brocolli, with a sauce mostly from lemon juice, lemon rind, and chicken stock -- not bad for a low cal dish. Sunday was a recipe from a french cookbook -- 7 hour leg of lamb. It's a leg of lamb cooked like a pot roast over a bed of onions, carrots, and garlic, with the liquid in the pot being white wine (instead of red, as you would use for a pot roast). Heavenly. You can cut the meet with spoon. Pretty much finished up the leftovers last night.

[ahenry]

I spoke of social valuation, both in the economic realm as well as the cultural anthropological domain. That there is a joyful difference existentially between men and women is something I celebrate with enthusiasm - I just flinch at the patriarchial Western Civilization. I see the continuance of the glass ceiling as a short-term revenant of uglier times, with some few remaining bastions soon to be invalidated with the passage of at most another generation. What glass ceiling? I requested proof before, and I'll request it again. What “remaining bastions” are you speaking of that will soon be "invalidated"? Would you say that you would rather see a matriarchal society then?


More unites us than could divide us simply because we are learning the value of substantive diversity amongst inherent equals as a principle fundamental to our Republic's intuitive strength. I would say that our Republics strengths have been crippled through the modern day emphasis on diversity.



Bigjim, I don’t even know where to start with what you said, so I won’t even start. You could do to think more carefully about what you say though.

[bigjim]

Catsdienow said: Bigjim, your ignorance is astounding. I will not throw gasoline on your flame.

Then went on to say: You guys wondered a while back why there weren't more women here - posts like this are why).

You may be right, I could be ignorant. You may be very closed minded to the ideas of any one that disagrees with you.

Both short comings can get you in trouble don't you think?

Quote number two supports my point. Are you saying Men control the level of female participation here?

I think women don't come here because they like cats. I think we should pass a law forcing you to like cats equally to dogs. Then cats and dogs will be the same. Then women will come here more.

Did I capture how you feel about how you FEEL about women cats and the forum?

[Wilhelm]

WAY OFF TOPIC.


Wilhelm

[Betty]

This IS getting OT. If we want to start a topic on man vs. woman, glass ceilings n' such, please do so in Legal & Political.

[anchored]

Thank you Zander, that is one of my biggest pet peeves.

Lessee, I can't box and I can't solve anything butt he most rudimentary equations, but everything else on both lists, I think I'm fairly competent at (well, not sure about the dying gracefully part yet). I think I'll make a webpage on how do to all that stuff.

[Oleg Volk]

I open doors for men, women and friendly space aliens. Specific gestures of respect, be they tipping of a hat, saluting, holding a door open, providing a dinner, or any other, are less important than the general idea of civil and friendly demeanor towards a friend or a non-hostile stranger.

On the subject of the ability to use small arms, martial arts, other means of self-defense: life is too short to spend time with people who are voluntarily helpless. I am not blaming infants or quadrapalegics for their inability to fend off threats. I am viewing people who voluntarily put themselves and their dependents at risk of victimization by anyone, be it a human thug or an ambitious squirrel, as mentally suspect and thus unsuitable company.

As another gentleman here noted, mere ability to fight doesn't make one a lady or a gentleman. But the inability to do so could be a disqualifier.

Other traits making up the concept of gentlefolk include the ability and the willingness to be financially independent, allowing others to live unmolested no matter how much one might wish to re-make the neighbors in his own image, all the basics of gracious and free existence.

[CatsDieNow]

Bigjim: Ahenry, Zander, and others (including me) disagree with the glass-ceiling concept statement. They have stated their opinions in a manner that was both civil and respectful. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder and are daring people to knock it off.

I'm not sure what you "captured" there, but it's pretty incoherent whatever it is. :confused:

[garrettwc]

by Oleg Volk:
I am viewing people who voluntarily put themselves and their dependents at risk of victimization by anyone, be it a human thug or an ambitious squirrel, as mentally suspect and thus unsuitable company.


Amen, that is why I am now single. She saw this as a very well reasoned stance.

[Kaylee]

First, so far as not being a gentleman because it's the "human equivalent of preening or strutting".. a while back I ran across this little verse, and wasn't sure I believed it at the time. The more I've seen since, the more I've come to agree.....

Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untravelled, the naive, the unsophisticated, deplore these formalities as 'empty,' 'meaningless,' or 'dishonest,' and scorn to use them. No matter how pure their motives, they thereby throw sand into the machinery that does not work too well at best.

R. A. Heinlein, "Take Back Your Government"

(No offense intended Spacemanspiff.. I don't think i'd have chosen quite so harsh words as he did..)


And secondly, I must say I find old school gentlemen just a delight to be around.. it's a refreshing change from the usual pace and tenor of life these days.

There are few things as charming as talking to a young man just out of the Marines, all Southern Gentility in manners wrapped around a tempered spirit.. it boggles the mind to think of a society where that approached the norm.

And if you haven't had the pleasure of meeting one... rest assured there is nothing "prissily submissive" in that Marine's manners. Yum! :D

So again.. thank you, gentlemen of all ages. :) You're a national treasure.

-K

[spacemanspiff]

well i dont particularly see Heinleins words as harsh, he just doesnt mince words. i respect that, and your use of the quote.

however, since i am not inclined to behave like the gentlemen described throughout this thread, i would say that i do see such behavior as "meaningless". the only way i can quantify that statement is by stating that i do see people who are genuinely kind, thats one kind of gentleman. for kicks, lets use Oleg as an example. hes been described from what i can tell as both a gentleman and a scholar.
i'd make the assumption that Oleg would behave exactly the same no matter what the situation or people involved.

this type of example is rare. the flip side that i see more often and want nothing to do with, is the person that is nice because they expect to get something back for it. maybe its being ultra nice to family members to ensure a decent inheritance left in a will. or maybe its going all out for people at work to get a promotion or raise. or even just trying to do or say the right thing so you can take that guy/girl/sockpuppet home for carnal pleasures.

that is where i see the dishonesty spoken of in Heinleins quote. i have nothing against people who are geniunely nice. i do have problems dealing with people who fake everything just to get ahead in life.

where do i stand in relation to those two examples? well i'm nice to the people i respect.

[garrettwc]

i have nothing against people who are geniunely nice. i do have problems dealing with people who fake everything just to get ahead in life.

I would submit that the former is the true gentleman. While the latter is a pretentious scoundrel.

[MitchSchaft]

I think women don't come here because they like cats.

Ahh come on, I love cats. I would have a few, but my wife hates them :neener:.