[Drjones]

It just occurred to me:

I've always respected people with centrist or right leaning views, whereas I've always thought of leftists as overgrown, immature children.

:neener:

[Billll]

People get the way they do for some very practical reasons. I used to be fairly liberal, then I got a job, and bought a house. I figured my own personal bills were more important than some welfare bum. A friend of mine is a solid leftie, but then she gets government money to do cancer research. Her reasoning is "More government = more money".
Leftist philosiphy seems to come down to "Sombody ought to raise my allowance!" and if your economic status falls around there, i.e. low wage or no-wage, then it makes sense to vote that way.
If, on the other hand, it's _your_ money being redistributed, you'll probably vote conservative.

[Marko Kloos]

Liberals want the government to be your Mommy. Conservatives want government to be your Daddy. Libertarians want it to treat you like an adult. – Andre Marrou

[Oleg Volk]

The trouble with the labels is this: let's say you wrote an article which states that "liberal elite supports gun control". Self-defined conservatives might agree with the message with or without the "liberal" modifier. Self-defined liberals stopped reading after the words "liberal elite" because they dismissed you as a right-wing knuckle-dragger. Ooops -- they were the folks you needed to convince!

Non-confrontational writing and speaking is a useful skill, especially in political debates. Not being mealy-mouthed or PC, but polite, factual and civil. It works.

[DonP]

It's a stimulus - response issue.

If you want people to change their way of thinking, or at minimum start to question their position, you won't get there by beating them over the head with your point of view.

All you do by lecturing them on their stupidity or ignorance of constitutional issues is give them a great example to share at the next wine tasting in Marin County of the ignorance of us knuckle draggers.

The only real persuasion that works is laying out the facts or asking a pointed question, like; "Well, gee Muffy, how will the new proposed gun law stop the bad guys in the park from carrying, or is it just aimed at making us feel we've done something?" (providing an effective stimulus) and letting people ultimately draw their own conclusions (response).

Pointing out that they are too emotionally driven, knee jerk liberals etc. just shuts down their reception of anything you have to say. On 9/12 thousands of people that were fence sitters flocked to gun stores because their response to a perceived direct threat was to find a way to protect themselves and their family. Stimulus = natural response.

You also have to accept that there are some people, like the aforementioned research scientist (or all NPR employees), that will never see it our way because they have already sold their independence to a large, maternal, monolithic federal government. In essence they have already become socialists.

But they all have a hidden, selfish capitalist inside of them. Watch that "government is good" researcher scream when the governnment shifts funding to a new area and she starts getting shorthchanged. In other words, "government is good as long as I get what I want".

Just my .02.

Don P.

[Baba Louie]

I think Lendringser and Marrou hit the nail on the head; Mommies, Daddies and civilized individuals.

Let me be and life is fine. If I need assistance I'll ask, if you need it and I have it to give, it's yours.

Life is good. Life is short. I choose not to be coddled or to hover over others.

Adios

[BigG]

Loaded words. Once a person reads something that causes a gut reaction - the emotion kicks in - all thinking stops. Advertising takes advantage of this all the time. So do newspapers and politicians.

I am as guilty as anybody, I guess. :o

[mjustice]

I think that old saying is true - "A conservative is a liberal who was mugged".

MJ

[Marko Kloos]

"A conservative is a liberal who was mugged".


"A Libertarian is a conservative who has been arrested."

[Drjones]

I've been thinking about my initial post, and not only did I not really express what I wanted to, I think I made myself look ignorant in the process.:banghead:

Can't edit the original post either, so I have to just reply.

What I wanted to express is that there seems to be this childish smugness with most liberals. That's the best way I can describe it; a total, through-and-through smugness, air of superiority and self-righteousness, not too different from a horribly spoilt child.

When I was in Santa Cruz a few weekends ago, I could just SENSE all those things just OOZING out of people.

I stopped at a coffee shop with a buddy on the main drag (pacific ave?) and there were some overgrown chi....uh....people there sitting at a table snickering like elementary school kids passing a note over some cartoons about George W. (Because its obvious that libs aren't against the war because they are against the war, they are just against GW.)

I dunno....its a hard sentiment to express. Like I can just look at some people and they LOOK immature.

Allright...I'll stop babbling before you all think I'm REALLY nuts.... :rolleyes: :scrutiny:

[Tamara]

a total, through-and-through smugness, air of superiority and self-righteousness,

Boy, you can't get irony like this just anyplace...

[Joe Demko]

That's the best way I can describe it; a total, through-and-through smugness, air of superiority and self-righteousness, not too different from a horribly spoilt child.

You mean the kind of attitude like, say, wanting to smack an antiwar protestor just to see what one would do? You mean the kind of attitude that anybody who disagrees with your POV is an emotion-driven moron? Left and Right alike in this country have a bounteous surplus of sanctimonious, smug, superiority.

[Dorrin79]

I was just about to chime in that none of the above "liberal" problems are confined to 'liberals".

Conservatives have their share as well.

Sad to say, but even libertarians of various stripes have their people they're somewhat ashamed of.

Leonard Peikoff and the ARI come to mind...

Perhaps the object lesson is that supercilious prigs remain supercilious prigs, regardless of their political affiliation.

The Left does seem to have more than their fair share, though...

[Joe Gunns]

AFter 31 years immersed in a liberal workplace I think that, by and large, on the whole, and as a general rule, liberals have been accurately characterized here. Yes there are those conservatives who have similar characateristics, but their frequency within their cohort population is lower (Gilbert and Schwartz 1999). They found the frequency of Libertarians in the general population was too low to be significant.

One of the joys of participating in this forum is that you DON"T NEED to be tactful, polite and sensitive, when talking about some no-load, pigeon-chested, helium-headed, anti-gun space-clown since you are preaching to the choir. Those trolls that happen by are not of type that will be lulled into agreement by kind and gentle psychic massage. I am the soul of tolerance and reason when dealing with these misguided, well-meaning dupes in the real world. I need a fix of some hairy-chested, man-talk ( or Tamara, button-popping, amazon-talk) to keep my testosterone levels up!

I think our esteemed drjones is just trying to pay all of us wise and helpful folks a compliment.
THANK YOU, DRJONES - you are sterling example of red-blooded American youth, and I, for one, look forward to your postings.

Best regards,
Joe

PS - I made up the Gilbert and Schwartz citation.:)

[BigG]

supercilious prigs remain supercilious prigs

So true! A fanatic of any stripe (even of something I agree with) makes me want to barf.

Nice post, Joe Gunns! :cool:

[jmbg29]

(Because its obvious that libs aren't against the war because they are against the war, they are just against GW.)They have good reason to be. If he (a moron in their eyes) wins, they are doomed to many decades of irrelevance.

Our country OTOH needs to win for the right reasons. Fortunately, Bush's character is such that he pursues his current course for all the right reasons. Politics be damned.

In my eyes, that kind of integrity doesn't need a label.

[Hal]

there seems to be this childish smugness with most liberals. That's the best way I can describe it; a total, through-and-through smugness, air of superiority and self-righteousness, not too different from a horribly spoilt child. Ya mean like this?http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/06/24/clinton/clinton.jpg

[BigG]

:what: :barf:

[Drjones]

You mean the kind of attitude like, say, wanting to smack an antiwar protestor just to see what one would do? No, actually, in that thread I said I'd smack a PACIFIST to see if they actually hold true to their views of non-violence, or if they are nothing more than sheep, keeping with the trend of the day, as I so strongly suspect.

You mean the kind of attitude that anybody who disagrees with your POV is an emotion-driven moron?
Show me a rational, logical anti-gun argument and we'll talk.

I've actively searched for sound anti-gun arguments, and among the best I've found: (First one courtesy of someone on THR/TFL, all others I heard through FIRSTHAND experience.)

"I am a tyrranical dictator, and in order to easily enslave and exploit you, I must have your weapons."

"I would rather be raped than saved by someone with a gun." YES, someone actually said that to me in an online debate.

"Guns are penis extensions. You just want a gun to feel more like a 'real man.'"

"Real men don't need guns. Real men settle things with knives or fists. It takes a lot more balls to stab someone than to shoot them."

Left and Right alike in this country have a bounteous surplus of sanctimonious, smug, superiority.

Yes, but it's a matter of who is justified in being so!!! :neener:

Seriously, it ain't arrogance if you can back it up.

I can say to anyone who argues for gun control on any level, "I am right, you are wrong. End of story." and be totally correct in doing so, because I have the empirical data and history to back me up.

It's like trying to tell me the earth is flat. That is essentially what the anti's are arguing: A proven false hypothesis.

[Drjones]

Joe Gunns:

Thank you! :D

[BobP]

I'm curious as to how many liberal anti-gun baby boomer parents would agree that their kids would be safer on the gun range than in a nightclub. The body count is a lot higher in the latter.

[Drjones]

I'm curious as to how many liberal anti-gun baby boomer parents would agree that their kids would be safer on the gun range than in a nightclub. The body count is a lot higher in the latter.

Bob, I am *quite* shocked at your insane assertion.

I cannot believe you would imply such a thing!

Recently, I have *only* heard of three distinct incidents at various nightclubs which resulted in the deaths of many people.

In one incident in Chicago, only 21 people were trampled to death while trying to escape during a fight.
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/news/21803_nat_clubdeaths.html

In Australia, ONLY three people were murdered after a nightclub brawl. http://www.abc.net.au/news/australia/2002/07/item20020718193112_1.htm

Here in my hometown several months ago, an off-duty (and I believe drunken) CHP Officer shot someone.

You mean to tell me those incidents make GUN RANGES safer than nightclubs?

Oh the horror! All those evil guns and drunk CHP, er, rednecks at the ranges!!!

I mean, look at all those accidental shootings on gun ranges lately!!! The body count is higher than the Vietnam War!!!

(Give me a sec....google keeps coming up "no results found" when I enter in "Gun range shootings." Just a sec, ok? Please???)

[Blackhawk]

I've always respected people with centrist or right leaning views, whereas I've always thought of leftists as overgrown, immature children.
I'm conflicted about reading that. That's the way I have been from age 9 on, and I'm still that way.

The old cliche that if you're not liberal as a youth, you don't have a heart, and if you aren't conservative by middle age you don't have a brain plagues me. I don't remember any political leanings as a child, but I must have always been heartless!

Maybe you're heartless too.... :(

(Enjoy! I've had a blast all my life! :neener: )