Ohio GUN CLUB says "No CCW here!"


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Brian D.
June 11, 2004, 10:28 AM
Thought you folks would be interested. Last Friday at Fairfield Sportmens Association, I noticed they'd erected a sign at the entrance that said: "No concealed carry of firearms on this property, except by sworn law enforcement personnel". Thought that was pretty hypocritical, since they teach the CCW class there and make money from same! Also, they have a very large, active pistol section (3,400+ members total in the club) with several types of handgun competition, including matches (like IPSC) where HOLSTERS are required. Just my take, this signage reeks of shotgunner elitism, which rears its ugly head at many clubs. So, anyone got any helpful ideas here?

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TimRB
June 11, 2004, 10:35 AM
Sounds like it might be an insurance issue. Anyway, you can either obey the rule or disobey it; your choice. I don't know the law there, but I suppose they can legally demand that you not carry. You also can complain about the sign to whoever will listen. If you just disobey the sign, you probably should expect to be thrown out of the club at any time.

Tim

JNW
June 11, 2004, 10:51 AM
Our range in Clermont County (Miami Valley R&P) doesn't have signs posted but we've got the same policy ie. no CCW on club property. All weapons being carried or used by members/guests must remain unloaded until the range(s) is hot and you're at the firing line (or next in line to shoot).

It's probably a safety issue and may be an NRA insurance issue also.

- Joe

Henry Bowman
June 11, 2004, 11:18 AM
That was the rule at FSA when I joined, but I expected it to change with the advent of CCW licensing in Ohio. Not so. At the new member orientation, one of the ruling class proudly held up his Florida CCW a stated that they would be offering training as soon as the law passed in Ohio. One class that I've heard of and info on enrolement is nearly impossible to get.

Unfortunately the club is run by a bunch of old authoritarians who pride themselves on being "sportsmen." I don't know that they think the 2nd Amendment is about hunting and target shooting; I think they just don't care either way. Generally, the only "fun" allowed on premises is to shoot at mellons or water jugs at the plinking range (handguns and .22LR long guns only). I routinely rant to Black92LX about this. He is a patient listener, or else thinks I'm nuts and doesn't want to set me off.

Anybody know whether the Miami Valley club is a little more pro-2nd Amendment in their attitude? If it's an insurance or NRA thing, then why do all the ranges that other THR members talk about not have all these extra rules?

hillbilly
June 11, 2004, 11:27 AM
I belong to a gun club that has the same weird policy.

I am not advocating breaking club policies here, but if you've got it concealed, exactly how would anyone know that you've got it on while you're at the club?????????

hillbilly

Blackcloud6
June 11, 2004, 11:27 AM
Unfortunately the club is run by a bunch of old authoritarians who pride themselves on being "sportsmen."

Its funny and sad at the same time but I find many gun clubs are like this. There are usually a bunch of folks who the club is theirs' and all the other members are of a second class nature.

Brian D.
June 11, 2004, 11:28 AM
Hello. I'm a member at Miami Rifle and Pistol. Can't recall there being anything specifically anti-CCW in the rules/bylaws, but there sure as heck isn't any such signage posted! BTW, Henry: Next time one of the "authoritarians" out there bug you, ask them about the good ol' buddy trapshooter (first name: Art) who's ND'd no less than THREE holes in the clubhouse ceiling with his "non-evil" shotguns! And unless he croaked recently, the old coot is still a member, never disciplined for his foul ups!

scbair
June 11, 2004, 11:32 AM
Members at my club are ENCOURAGED to CCW; it's in a rural location, and sooner or later some local ne'er-do-well is gonna decide that people with enough funds to affort recreational shooting probably have some cash, and the firearms themselves are valuable loot. I'd hate to be caught with all arms unloaded.:rolleyes:

Henry Bowman
June 11, 2004, 11:55 AM
Thanks, Brian. I'd like to tour the Miami R&P some time. I joined FSA because I enjoy non-competitive trap and skeet shooting (moving targets, you know) from time to time and your club has very limited shotgun facilities. I'm rethinking my decision. I live and work about equal distance between the two.

Zundfolge
June 11, 2004, 12:02 PM
Brian, maybe you should buy a pack of these:

https://www.ohioccw.org/catalog/images/no_guns_cards.gif
get them here (https://www.ohioccw.org/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=107)

and give them to the membership people at the club on your way out.


Frankly I won't support any business that doesn't allow me to carry ... gun club, gun shop or waffle house it doesn't matter.


The other option is if they have an elected board, time to get your campaign face out and run on this issue.

444
June 11, 2004, 12:04 PM
This sounds typical of most gun clubs.
I was at an handgun match the other day and after finishing my run I cleared my gun but forgot to lower the hammer. So I was walking around with my 1911 in a holster and the thumb safety engaged (returned to the holster in a manner that is a long standing habit of mine). Some guy said, hey, your hammer is supposed to be down. You are scareing me.
Isn't that a fine note. Having a handgun in a holster cocked and locked scares another shooter. This is why we are going to lose this battle. Even other shooters view guns as objects that can do harm all by themselves and arn't safe even when holstered.

I have attended a shooting school that I won't name that is near my home. The whole idea of the school is personal protection. They talk about mind set, the color code of mental awareness, drawing from concealment, problems #2 and #3..................................... They even brag about how much better their students are than other schools etc. Guess what ? I can legally carry a concealed firearm pretty much anywhere in the state, BUT NOT THERE. No loaded guns are allowed there. :barf:

Brian D.
June 11, 2004, 12:26 PM
Thanks, I already have some of those excellent cards, and I've notified Ohioans for Concealed Carry directly on this matter as well. Not currently being a member of FSA, I'm trying to refrain from any direct confrontation with their "management"--for the moment. Truth be known, back into the early 90s I was not only a member, but pistol section leader at FSA as well. Although I switched to Miami Rifle and Pistol mainly because it had more suitable facilities for the Cowboy Action matches I wanted to start up and run, this shotgunner snobbishness at Fairfield influenced my decision too. A couple too many folks on the board had low opinions of pistoleros (and our guns) at that time, and apparently it is true now as well!:fire:

trapperjohn
June 11, 2004, 12:31 PM
I belong to a gun club that has the same weird policy.


Hillbilly, when i joined that club I was told that it was no conceled UNLESS you had a permit. Either they changed it or there is a misunderstanding by one of us.

Trebor
June 11, 2004, 01:49 PM
It's not a RKBA issue, its a safety issue.

Most (not all) ranges operate on the "Cold Range" principle. On a cold range all guns are unloaded unless you are on the firing line shooting. Even in IDPA type competitions where you are carrying a holstered weapon, you don't load until you go to the line to shoot.

Another of the rules of a cold range is that no-one is allowed forward of the firing line until all guns are on the bench with the actions open.

You can't allow people to carry loaded handguns (open or concealed) when they aren't on the line shooting and run a true "cold range." The very act of having a loaded gun violates the first rule of a cold range, that guns are unloaded unless you are on the firing line firing. Keeping a loaded gun on your person also violates the "all actions are open before anyone goes forward of the line" policy.

Now, I will admit that you could modify the cold range rules to exempt guns carried by CCW holders, but I don't have a problem with ranges that stick to a strict "cold range" policy.

If I'm at the range and I'm forward of the line, I don't want some idiot to pull out his loaded CCW piece to show his buddy when he's behind me. That's how accidents happen.

Yes, it seems kind of silly to ban loaded guns at a range, or a gunshop, or even at a gun show, but that's one of the few places where I can agree to a no CCW policy. People are more likely to pull out a pistol at a gunshop or gun show to show someone or check a holster or whatever then they are to pull out that same pistol in a non-gun business. If your in a situation where people are routinely handling guns that are suppossed to be unloaded, it's a bad idea to allow loaded guns in the same area.

While a range and a gun show are different venues, some of the same rules about unloaded guns apply. If you want to see the need for those rules, just look at how many accidental shootings there have been at gun shows in the last few years.

Henry Bowman
June 11, 2004, 01:52 PM
If you want to see the need for those rules, just look at how many accidental shootings there have been at gun shows in the last few years.
Very, very few, actually (though we hear about each and every one).
Even in IDPA type competitions . . .
Then make the rule apply to the particular range during a particular event -- not all 100 acres of archery, rifle, trap, skeet, plinking, fishing lake, etc. I realize that you didn't make the particular rule in question. But the attitude of "it [the rule] doesn't bother me" is the main problem at this particular club. :fire:

Another recent rule at this club is that no kids under 16 (14 on trap and skeet) may shoot ANY firearms -- even with one-on-one adult supervision -- except during an official organized club program for juniors. I complained to the club president and was told that there had been a couple of instances of club members allowing their teenagers to shoot without actual supervision (already a violation of the existing rules). I told him how disappointed I was that could not now take my 7 year old daughter to this "family" club and allow her to pull the trigger on a single shot bolt action .22 even with my arms wrapped around hers. He said that we could discuss arranging an exception if I had something like that in mind. BS! No more of this elitism! Either the rule is right or it's wrong. Don't punish all for the rare acts of a very few. Seems I've heard that principle touted here on THR -- but then the rulers of this club are not of the same thinking.

Zundfolge
June 11, 2004, 01:53 PM
It's not a RKBA issue, its a safety issue.
If we're unsafe at a gun club or gun range then why aren't we unsafe at the grocery store or walking through the park?

I believe it IS an RKBA issue, because gun clubs should be setting the tone ... they should be helping us law abiding gun owners to shed the image that many fence sitters and antis have that guns are "extremely dangerous" when carried by non LEOs.

Now I can certainly understand safety rules that require you to keep it holstered accept at the firing line, but not allowing you to walk in with your CCW piece is just stupid.

Trebor
June 11, 2004, 01:54 PM
Members at my club are ENCOURAGED to CCW; it's in a rural location, and sooner or later some local ne'er-do-well is gonna decide that people with enough funds to affort recreational shooting probably have some cash, and the firearms themselves are valuable loot. I'd hate to be caught with all arms unloaded.

Now that's a different situation entirely and I agree with their reccomendation in that circumstance. If I'm out plinking in a rural location, I also keep a CCW on my person at all times. But, most private clubs don't have that security concern because they are more easily able to restrict access to club members only.

Stepbyrd
June 11, 2004, 02:10 PM
If we're unsafe at a gun club or gun range then why aren't we unsafe at the grocery store or walking through the park?

Normally at a grocery store or in a public park, you not as likely to pull your pistol to show it to someone else.

Zundfolge
June 11, 2004, 02:14 PM
Normally at a grocery store or in a public park, you not as likely to pull your pistol to show it to someone else.
Go re-read my post ... I have no problem with rules that require you to keep your piece holstered unless you're on the firing line. But thats not what the anti-CCW rules state.

Greg L
June 11, 2004, 02:24 PM
"No concealed carry of firearms on this property, except by sworn law enforcement personnel".

However it seems that they want a cold range for everyone but the police. More of the fine for me but not for thee mentality. I'm on the other side of the metro area from the FSA & have never been there so I can't comment on that facility. However there is one local range that I used to go to where some of the local depts shot. One of the reasons that I don't go there anymore (prices, attitude, etc being the others) is the gun handling that I have seen local police officers demonstrate scared the crap out of me (lots of holes in the ceiling/chips out of the concrete floor by the bench :eek: ). And this is by those who want to practice. Granted there are many safe & excellent shooters in the ranks of the police force, however there are also many who hate the idea of dragging a pistol around with them wherever they go. So don't presume to tell me that I, someone who has made the choice to get the training & go about my day armed, am any less competent/safe than those who are putting holes in your ceiling. :fire:

I prefer a hot range anyway, people tend to pay attention more if every gun is assumed to always be loaded.

Greg

Molon Labe
June 11, 2004, 02:34 PM
Another Ohioan here. My range allows concealed carry, 50 cal, full auto, AP, incendiary, and anything else you can throw down range. And it doesn't even charge a fee or membership dues for guest shooters.

I don't mean to gloat, but the range is my side yard. :D

md2lgyk
June 11, 2004, 02:37 PM
My club doesn't have anything specifically about CCW in its rules (CCW being nearly nonexistent in Maryland anyway) but I tend to agree with others here that for clubs that do, it's a safety/liability issue and not a RKBA issue. The concern is that the gun is loaded, not that it's concealed. At our ranges, except for specific matches requiring it (PPC, Cowboy Action), even open carry of a loaded weapon is prohibited.

hvengel
June 11, 2004, 02:42 PM
I shoot at a range that is cold with one exception. That exception is for action pistol shooting. All action pistol shooters are required to go throug a 1 day training class. This is about 2 hours of class room and about 4 hours on the range. After the class when the action pistol range is open everyone carries thier pistols loaded. There is a safety area were you load/unload and hoster/unhoster your gun. Outside of the safety area if you touch your gun and you are not on the firing line you will be asked to leave the range for the day. If you drop your gun on the firing line you will be asked to leave for the day. If you do anything that the range officers consider unsafe you will be asked to leave for the day. If you have 3 such incedents you will not be allowed on the action pisol range again. I have only seen two shooters asked to leave. In one case the shooter droped his gun while drawing and in the other case the shooter did not remove his finger from the trigger while rehostering. No one that I know of has had more than one such incedent. I have never seen a AD at the action pistol range and I have never seen anyone hurt as a result of a gun mishap on this range.

Hot ranges are safe IF eveyone on the range has proper training and knows the range rules. It also requires that range officers pay very close attention to eveyone on the range. For public ranges these conditions are very difficult to meet so they are always run as cold ranges.

Does this justify a no CCW rule to keep the range totaly cold or should there be a presumtion that CCW permit holders have had the training needed to be safe? Although I favor allowing CCW on shooting ranges this is not a simple call.

Bartholomew Roberts
June 11, 2004, 02:45 PM
Not in Ohio; but here in Texas I've seen it handled several ways.

With a fixed firing line, the most common is that the gun must stay concealed and in the holster until you are on the firing line. With IPSC/IDPA style shooting, usually a berm is assigned for people to make their guns cold before the match begins and the match is run on a cold range.

Henry Bowman
June 11, 2004, 02:45 PM
Mr. Labe -- Care to PM your address (or host a SW Ohio THR get together)?

Yes, the club in question also bans all .50BMGs. But the longest range is only 300 yds and I'm told that the backstop is insufficient for .50s.

Stepbyrd
June 11, 2004, 02:51 PM
Go re-read my post ... I have no problem with rules that require you to keep your piece holstered unless you're on the firing line. But thats not what the anti-CCW rules state.

I read your post and I understand what you were trying to say. That's why I only quoted the first sentence.

I live in Georgia and I have a CCW permit. In Georgia there is no requirements to show your proficiency with a handgun. 95 to 98% of those who have a permit are "safe", sadly it is the small percentage that isn't that causes the problem. I try to go to the range at least every other weekend and I try to drum up a conversation with people there to help break the ice and to get to know your fellow shooters. In the past months I have also had the holy bejesus scared out of me. Example: We called for a clear (cold) range so that we could go forward and change targets. As we started going down range a shot rang out and impacted downrange somewhere. A man (who was not on the firing line but was in the "back area") had pulled his CCW piece to show it to someone and it discharged. How? Who knows. His response was it just went off. He left right after that. When I began talking to the guy that was with him when this happened, he stated that they had been discussing the merits of a particular handgun (Walther P99) and just so happened this guy had one as his CCW piece.

Just because someone has a CCW doesn't mean they are safe.

This next part is hearsey because I wasn't there so..

A local gun store has a sign up that states "Every firearm must be unloaded before entering the store." I was talking with a buddy of mine who frequents it and he said that someone came in to trade in a pistol and shot a hole in the counter.

I mean nothing against you with this and I know someone will probably take offense about what I wrote. Oh well.

Henry Bowman
June 11, 2004, 03:04 PM
No offense taken. But the events you describe, while very high on the seriousness scale, are extremely low on the frequency scale.
sadly it is the small percentage that isn't that causes the problem.
Is it really a problem? Or is it either the "risk of a problem" or even a "perceived" problem. In reality, the victims of bad guys who misuse gun are almost always other bad guys. (not all, of course) The "problems" caused by negligent good guys, IMHO, are statistically insignificant. (I am not a statistition) I think that the anti's do enough to overinflate this perceived problem.

Zundfolge
June 11, 2004, 03:09 PM
Just because someone has a CCW doesn't mean they are safe.
Same thing goes for a badge ... but they are always exempt from this silliness :scrutiny:


Frankly I trust someone with a CCW more then someone with a badge when it comes to safety.

Stepbyrd
June 11, 2004, 03:11 PM
No offense taken. But the events you describe, while very high on the seriousness scale, are extremely low on the frequency scale. Is it really a problem? Or is it either the "risk of a problem" or even a "perceived" problem. In reality, the victims of bad guys who misuse gun are almost always other bad guys. (not all, of course) The "problems" caused by negligent good guys, IMHO, are statistically insignificant. (I am not a statistition) I think that the anti's do enough to overinflate this perceived problem.

Same thing goes for a badge ... but they are always exempt from this silliness. Frankly I trust someone with a CCW more then someone with a badge when it comes to safety.

Point taken guys. All is good on my end. :)

telewinz
June 11, 2004, 05:26 PM
I know several irresponsible gunowners that have no business carrying a loaded firearm. But like the 1st amendment, the 2nd amendment doesn't address the wisdom or maturity of the individual given that right.

Vermont Guy
June 11, 2004, 06:03 PM
Why can’t it work like this?

Post a reminder that “If it’s concealed, keep it concealed.”

The gun you shoot will NOT be the one you are carrying. If you want to shoot your carry gun you bring it on to the range unloaded in a case just like anything else.

I can see the concern that two guys talking CCW will be tempted to show off what they carry. That would be very dangerous. It would also be felony brandishing in my state.

I suppose the club would hate to send a member to prison for 5 years but it would probably only happen once.

The payoff is, as has been mentioned, that we would be showing that this can be done safely. We would be respecting each other’s right to carry.

So far the ranges I shoot haven’t posted but the county hasn’t started issuing permits here either. They do have general rules about all guns cased, unloaded, etc. but nothing CCW specific.

JohnBT
June 11, 2004, 06:44 PM
"But like the 1st amendment, the 2nd amendment doesn't address the wisdom or maturity of the individual given that right."

That could have been an oversight on the Framers' part, but in any case neither one applies on private property.

I get real nervous when somebody I don't know says "Let me show you something" and pulls a gun out of their pocket. I really hate it when it happens at a range and I have plugs and muffs on and don't know why they're going for their gun. Just suspicious I guess.

John

carpettbaggerr
June 11, 2004, 07:43 PM
Boy, I hope the gun-grabbers don't get hold of this. I can see the ads now.

"Guns are so dangerous that shooting ranges in this state ban CCW"

"You can't carry a loaded gun in a PISTOL RANGE"

"Why should we allow carrying hidden loaded guns in public, when it's too dangerous for a local shooting range?"

"Gun owners agree it's too dangerous to carry loaded guns at a pistol range."



Wonderful.

Black92LX
June 11, 2004, 08:17 PM
i too am a member of FSA. My assumption is it is not a saftey issue. but an issue of SNIDE shotgunners. It is a terrible club to belong to. the only reason i shoot there is because it's the only place i have.

Hey Brian D. have you noticed the sign in the "NEW" rifle house? The one about .50 BMG's? Someones after comments are very funny but at the same time VERY TRUE.

Everytime i drive in the club all i can think is what the hell did we fight so long for??

Standing Wolf
June 11, 2004, 10:03 PM
I belong to a gun club that has the same weird policy.

I wouldn't.

Herself
June 11, 2004, 10:13 PM
The local gunshop and range has a "no loaded weapons" rule, too. As for CCW, well... the "rule" is, if it comes in concealed and it leaves concealed and the lads never see it out outside the range, they tend to look the other way; but it's a "gimme" if they catch you being stupid you're just gone.


All the other local gunshops have "no loaded weapons" signs up. The same reasoning: you're probably gonna take your gun out once you're in the store, and they'd as soon not have to mop up your toes (or theirs) if you turn out to be a witling. They'd really rather sell you a gun, or buy yours for a song, or make a deal on a trade, than be having to explain to the barbershop next door that the loud "bang" was just a little slip-up.

On the other hand, "concealed is concealed." If you never take your CW out (or flash it), they're not gonna ask to inspect it. I usually have my Galco purse, and if you know what to look for, it's pretty obviously a carry purse. While I usually just drop the mag, empty the chamber, and store it elsewhere before getting out of my car and walking into the shop, I've yet to be asked even if I am carrying. (And they know I'm a gunnie girl!)


...At a range, folks are going to be looking at guns, probably handing them around, etc. etc. The rangemaster can't be everywhere and usually has no idea who's got a clue, who doesn't, and who's distracted. Running the range cold helps limit the worries and the possible harm. I don't have a problem with that -- I've seen some real interesting behavior, and some even more interesting scars and bullet-holed buildings and furnishings. The range is not the mean, mean streets. The stakes aren't the same. There's a tendancy to relax.

--Herself

Deavis
June 11, 2004, 11:40 PM
Tim B:
Sounds like it might be an insurance issue

I love how people always throw this one out there when they don't *really* have any reason to not allow you to do something. If the range were required to carry CCW insurance, than so would every business in the state. After all, it is concealed and there would be no way to know so everyone would have to carry that insurance. Somehow, I doubt that insurance is the case.

I smell elitism. We have a range in Houston that doesn't allow CCW even though they teach the class there. I signed up without knowing that and was shook down by the owner because he thought I was carrying a weapon when I showed up. The guy was a complete jerk and said, "I am the only one with a gun in here. That way I can keep people in line." That is his right and I will never give him my business again.

Zundfolge
June 12, 2004, 01:30 AM
Thank you carpettbaggerr for making my point again :D

JohnBT
June 12, 2004, 09:35 AM
"Why should we allow carrying hidden loaded guns in public, when it's too dangerous for a local shooting range?"

Because guns aren't unholstered and handled in public like they frequently are at a range, gun show or gun store. Is this that hard for people to understand?

I have a few questions and wonder who's bothered by the restrictions.

Does the local car dealer let you drive your car around the showroom floor?

Does the local grocer let you bring a picnic lunch and spread out a blanket in aisle 3?

Does the Masters let you, as a spectator, bring a club just in case you get a chance to hit a few shots during a lull in the tourney?

Ever try to take a bat to a game at Yankee Stadium?

I'm all for complete and total nationwide carry, but I still got po'ed at the gun store Thursday when 3 different customers briefly pointed guns at me. "But it's unloaded and has this tie-thingy on it." Nothing like an educational opportunity.

John

Black92LX
June 12, 2004, 11:10 AM
JohnBT i understand the points. but there is a little something extra.

The sign says except for sworn law enforcement officers. what makes them special that they get to carry and i don't???

This is what i have a problem with. Come this time next year i will be a sworn law enforcement officer, and most likely still a amember of FSA. unless i can find a nice chunk of land somewhere around here. That sign will still make me angry.

All that needs to be done is add a new rule. Your carry gun stays CONCEALED.

It's that simple.

Treylis
June 12, 2004, 02:09 PM
However it seems that they want a cold range for everyone but the police. More of the fine for me but not for thee mentality. I'm on the other side of the metro area from the FSA & have never been there so I can't comment on that facility. However there is one local range that I used to go to where some of the local depts shot. One of the reasons that I don't go there anymore (prices, attitude, etc being the others) is the gun handling that I have seen local police officers demonstrate scared the crap out of me (lots of holes in the ceiling/chips out of the concrete floor by the bench ). And this is by those who want to practice. Granted there are many safe & excellent shooters in the ranks of the police force, however there are also many who hate the idea of dragging a pistol around with them wherever they go. So don't presume to tell me that I, someone who has made the choice to get the training & go about my day armed, am any less competent/safe than those who are putting holes in your ceiling.

Considering how many dings/holes in the ceiling and walls the police who tend to use one local shooting range which I never frequent but buy stuff from sometime if I'm desperate--they're the closest, but their prices are OUTRAGEOUS and range time starts at 12 bucks an hour!--have put there, I'm particularly irked by such policies.

carpettbaggerr
June 12, 2004, 02:45 PM
Because guns aren't unholstered and handled in public like they frequently are at a range, gun show or gun store.

Gun owners agree "Guns are too dangerous to handle in public"


C'mon man, you shoot guns at the range. It's not like the dealer letting you drive in the showroom, it's like driving at the track. Or playing a round of golf, not watching at the Masters. They do let you have golf balls at the driving range, no?

It's a stupid policy, and it plays into the anti-gunners hands. Or it agrees with the anti-gunners philosophy. And I wouldn't spend my money at a range with this policy.

Barbara
June 12, 2004, 11:11 PM
Does the CCW ban apply to the whole club or just the range itself? I can understand not allowing concealed carry in range areas (I don't agree, but understand the reasoning.) I can't see how that would be extended to not allowing concealed carry in the clubhouse and/or any common areas.

444
June 12, 2004, 11:47 PM
A couple points that caught my attention when sifting through this thread.
Has it struck anyone as funny that one of the reasons we CCW is because rules DON"T work. Murder, robbery, rape, home invasion are illegal. There are rules against it. We realize this so we carry concealed firearms to protect ourselves.
Yet at the same time there are appearently people on here who believe that by makeing a range "cold" that automatically it is safer. Just like gun control laws, the only people who are going to obey rules like this are the people who are paying attention and who always play by the rules. The idiots, the know it alls, the criminals and a whole lot of good safe gun owners will just ignore the rule and you won't even know it.

#2 It is presumed that a cold range is safer. I think you forgot about the so called four rules of firearms safety: in particular rule #1. ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED. Whether the range is cold or hot, it shouldn't change a damn thing. Not one single thing. Every firearm present should be handled the same way regardless. If the people there are too ignorant to know the four rules that is a problem that should be dealt with. If they choose to ignore the rules even though they know and understand the rules, they should be dealt with.
Having a cold range doesn't make anything safer and shouldn't change the way guns are handled. By making rules like this, it is obvious that you are not dealing with reality and are not accomplishing a thing except establishing a feel good rule that will be violated and ignored. You are also buying into the idea that no one should be trusted with a loaded gun except the elite few. Your club or event should be working to ensure gun safety by education and enforcement of the universal rules of firearms handling: not by coming up with draconian rules that accomplish nothing but making you feel like you are doing something to combat the problem with out putting forth any real effort.

Justin
June 13, 2004, 12:01 AM
It's probably a safety issue and may be an NRA insurance issue also. I have it on good authority that the NRA Whittington Center allows both open and concealed carry on the premises.

Also, the range I belong to just went through a political battle over this very topic. At the end it was put to a vote. The conclusion was that so long as the pistol is in your holster and does not leave your holster during a cease fire you're kosher via the rules of the range.

I don't know what ranges y'all are shooting at, but it seems to me that any sentient adult with more than two brain cells to rub together would be able to grasp the concept of 'Don't handle guns during a cease-fire.'

But then again, that's why I avoid shooting at public ranges.

Black92LX
June 13, 2004, 03:44 AM
Does the CCW ban apply to the whole club or just the range itself? I can understand not allowing concealed carry in range areas (I don't agree, but understand the reasoning.) I can't see how that would be extended to not allowing concealed carry in the clubhouse and/or any common areas.

It applies everywhere even around the fishing lake.

Barbara
June 13, 2004, 08:35 AM
Then it's anti-carry, rather than a misguided safety rule. I wouldn't belong.

sendec
June 13, 2004, 09:58 AM
The Ohio CCW statute exempts peace officers from having to obtain a permit, but off-duty officers are required to follow the same carry rules as everyone else. In other words, they have to conceal in plain sight in motor vehicles and cannot carry in posted buildings. The only exception is for officers whose agencies require that they be armed at all times, and/or that the weapon must be concealed at all times. IOW, department policy can trump state law.

The state peace officer's training facilities prohibit concealed carry, and require that all guns be secured and not carried. They'll train you in firearms, but will not let you carry the tools of the trade.

jamz
June 13, 2004, 10:55 PM
Heh, when I was getting my newbie orientation at my range, they guy leading the "class" of about 15 people mentioned the rule about no loaded guns anywhere but the firing line, and no concealed carry on the premises.

Then he looked us all in the eye and said, slowly and clearly, "BUT, CONCEALED means CONCEALED. Everyone understand?"

THe message there was pretty clear.

-James

Brian D.
June 14, 2004, 02:01 PM
Your last post seems as though you are very wise, and well-spoken on this issue. Thanks.

Master Blaster
June 14, 2004, 04:25 PM
my 2 cents, Having a sign that says no CCW guns at the range for safety reasons is idiotic. The person who you have to worry about handling his CCW in an unsafe manner is the same guy who will simply ignore the sign anyway. He is also the same guy who will screw up with the gun he is shooting and endanger others on the range.

My indoor club has a sign that says No Unholstered loaded guns in the club room. CCW is fine just dont pull it in the club room. This club also allows you to draw from the holster and actually practice with what you carry on the range. Many ranges (all of the commercial ones) around here will not let you draw from a holster at all.

My outdoor club which has lots of those important $20,000 shot gun owning skeet shooting folks only allows drawing from a holster at an action match. No regular practice on the pistol range drawing from a holster. They also dissallow CCW unless you are a LEO (like that automatically makes you safe). I feel least safe when I walk up to the shotgun area where I am routinely swept by over-unders and other expensive shotguns with closed actions in an unknown state, while their owners are smokin cigars, comparing engraving, and burl walnut over the trunk of their BMW, Mercedes or cadillac SUV. The worst gun handling is often exhibited by our most exclusive and well heeled members.
This stoopid and dangerous gun handling is not tollerated on the rifle range, or the pistol or rimfire range ever.

So no amount of idiot proof signage can disuade the accomplished and well heeled idiot.
:barf:

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