[DMK]

I've been considering a little .22LR pocket gun for a range toy/plinker. I'm considering either a J-frame or a Walther PPK in 22LR.

Does anybody have any experiences with either? Any benefits or drawbacks over one or the other other than the obvious revolver vs. semi thing?


Edited because I apparently don't know what I'm talking about. I meant a PPK in 22LR, not a P-22. Sorry for the confusion.

[UberPhLuBB]

If you're considering an auto, stay away from the P22. Too many bad stories. Go handle a Ruger MKII or Beretta U22 Neos. There are lots of other 22 auto pistols, but the rest are probably going to be over $350 or $400.

[Brian Williams]

I have a Ruger MkII slabside and a S&W J frame Mod 35 and a Ruger Single six
The MkII is a great gun and I have 4 good mags for it. I can get 6" groups off of a rest using my 2x leupold scope. It is a target gun not a pocket gun but is still fun to shoot.... Then you have to load the mags... and you have to remember the mags and bring them to the range, not a problem if you leave them in the case, I have naver left the mags at home due to leaving them in the case all the time.

The Ruger Single six is a 22 mag and I want to get a lr cylinder for it but it will probably be later. 22 mags are expensive, so I do not shoot it much. Besides loading 1 at a time is slow and emptying 1 at a time is slower.

So now to the fun gun... I have a S&W 35-1 a 6" barrel blue steel and 6 shots on a J frame. No Mags to load or sore thumb, swing out the cyl and dump all 6 at once, no mag to forget, just fill a pocket with 22sand go about your shooting business. The 6" barrel precludes a pocket gun but makes it very accurate. If you want shorter get a 34.

I have looked at the P-22 and have shot a few other J frame 22s but I like my 35 best. The other j frame 22s were a 317 aluminum frame kit gun that was nice and had a 3" barrel adjustable sight and made for a nice lightweight Pocket gun, the trigger needed a little work. And the other was a Stainless J frame, I cannot remember the model number but was 22lr and mag swap cylinder with a 4" barrel that handled like my 35, only had fixed sights. Both the 317 and the stainless gun had the Uncle Mikes J frame grips and made for some extra bulk for a pocket 22, the bantam grips would have made for better pocket time.

Get a couple they make the range more fun.

[JNewell]

The .22 J frames are a hoot. There was the 63, all stainless, and a carbon steel version I'm forgetting the number of. The 317 is about 1/2 a hoot. It would be a full hoot, except that it literally weighs nothing. The triggers can be a bit heavy but improve if you clean it out, re-lube and just use it a few thousand times. And, doing so isn't hard, since even though it weighs nothing, it's a .22, so recoil is almost non-existent (unlike the .357 Ti/Sc Js).

I have only fired one P22 and it worked fine. I sort of got the impression that they've worked the issues out with the P22, but the early ones seemed trouble-prone and I suppose it's hard to know where the one you might buy fits into the production cycle.

[mfree]

I've got a P-22.... had to do a little kitchen-table gunsmithing to deal with an overly sharp chamber edge, but that's about it. Mine runs perfectly, 380 through with no malfs so far and I plan on another 550 bulk pack as soon as I can afford the ammo and range time :)

[DMK]

Edited: I apparently don't know what I'm talking about. I meant a PPK in 22LR, not a P-22. Sorry for the confusion.

Lookin' for a pocket gun, not a target gun.

[telcom911]

of the .22 pocket pistol is the North American Arms Mini

http://www.naaminis.com/pix/magNEW.jpg

It is the well made, very,very small, and comes with two Cylinders to shoot .22long or .22wsm. If you really want a .22 pocket gun this is the best out there(Again IMVHO)

Here is a LINK TO NAAMinis (http://www.naaminis.com/magnum.html)

Now, this is a recomdendation stricktly on the "pocket" part of your inquiry. If you want more of a shooter, a single six is good, as are all the Ruger autos. However, I prefer the Browning Buckmark Camper to either of them. I just like the 'feel' of the Buckmark better, but all are good guns.


http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/images/051353m.jpg


Here is aLink to the Buckmark Camper (http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?value=006B&cat_id=051&type_id=353)

[DMK]

The Buckmark is a nice Pistol, as is the MK-II, the 22/45, the Trailside, etc, but I already have a CZ-Kadet and a Single Six so I'm looking for something smaller than those.

[magsnubby]

I used to own a couple of those little toy .22's. I had a NAA .22 LR that was about useless past contact range. Lousy trigger, no grip to speak of and a lot more recoil than you would imagine from a .22. Finally traded it for a .22 rifle. I had a Beretta Bobcat in .22 that took a little experminting to find a couple of different loads that it liked. After i discovered It seemed to like CCI Minimags better than anything it made a fun little plinker. I let a dealer friend talk me into trading it in on a S&W 60. I should have kept it. I carried it along with a couple of extra mag when i rode my ten speed and never even knew it was there. It's a neat little gun.

[Erik Jensen]

how'bout a Beretta 21 Bobcat in .22LR? they look fun. certainly small enough to fit in your pocket...

[JNewell]

DMK, be careful with the PPK. It's an old design and, although I don't remember any of the specifics, I know there are safety/functionality issues with the centerfire versions. I would guess that the issues are worse, if anything, with a rimfire version of the same. I know a guy who got one against the advice of several folks and came to agree that it was a mistake. I'd search the archives here and at TFL on the PPK before I bought one.

The 317, on the other hand, will go bang every time, and if you ever have any issues, even with a used one, S&W will stand behind it, replace it if necessary, and their turnaround time is usually under 2 weeks door to door. Plus, in this rare case, the revolver might actually hold *more* cartridges than the semi! :)

[DMK]

DMK, be careful with the PPK. It's an old design and, although I don't remember any of the specifics, I know there are safety/functionality issues with the centerfire versions. Really? :confused: I have an old Manhurin PP in 32ACP and it's a beautiful piece of craftsmanship. Completely reliable and very accurate. I'm not sure of the year, but its got to be late 50s, early 60s.

The 317, on the other hand, will go bang every time, and if you ever have any issues, even with a used one, S&W will stand behind it, replace it if necessary, and their turnaround time is usually under 2 weeks door to door. Yea, I have a few S&Ws, including a 642 J-frame. They do make a fine revolver.

Plus, in this rare case, the revolver might actually hold *more* cartridges than the semi! Not in this case. The PPK holds 10 .22LR rounds, while the 317 holds 8.

[Jim K]

Unless something snuck by me, the PPK is no longer made in .22. A few were made in the post-war period, but most seen are pre-war and are collector's items, plus being quite expensive. PP's in .22 are more common and affordable, but a nice one will set you back a grand. If you find one, it is a really sweet shooting pistol, but stick to standard velocity ammo as they were not made for high speed ammo.

I can't really think of a decent real pocket pistol in .22; most are of the SNS type and are of poor quality. Unless you can find a used Beretta or one of the good French pistols once sold by Sears, you might have to forego the idea of a .22 pocket auto. For your wants, I would go with the revolver.

Jim

[DMK]

Unless something snuck by me, the PPK is no longer made in .22. That was my understanding as well.
A few were made in the post-war period, but most seen are pre-war and are collector's items, plus being quite expensive. PP's in .22 are more common and affordable, but a nice one will set you back a grand. If you find one, it is a really sweet shooting pistol, but stick to standard velocity ammo as they were not made for high speed ammo.
Hmm, that is very interesting. I have a line on a 22LR PPK and it ain't selling for a grand either. :)

[field70]

I know there are safety/functionality issues with the centerfire versions.

What are the safety issues? I have a .380 and am not aware of that.

[BluesBear]

.22 LR PPK? They made a lot of them!

I have fired 2 or 3 and all fed just fine. But you need good Hi-Speed ammo for positive ejection. There's just too much junk .22 ammo out there these days in my humble opinion.

The size of the PPK is what bothers me. If I was going to carry a PPK it's gonna be .380.

Having said that I dearly LOVE the J-frame S&W .22. The real beauty is that you then have the ability to fire the widest variety of ammo possible.
Everything from RWS BB caps to Colibri to Stingers to 60gr SSS to shot loads. And you can fire them all, as they used to say, " interchangeably and without adjustment". :D Caps, shorts, long, long rifle, it don't matter.
All with an adequate hammer fall.

Add to that the choice of single action or double action along with not having to bust your thumb loading magazines make the revolver the choice I recommend.

Just my tuppence. YMMV

[Tropical Z]

If you can find a new one at one of the auction sites,a FEG-SMC22 is EXACTLY what your'e looking for.Mine is a nice shooter and extremely reliable.

[JNewell]

What are the safety issues?

The older ones aren't drop-safe. You should be able to duplicate the experiment that someone I know performed with a primed, empty case. Strike the hammer with a deadblow hammer and see what happens. Hint: wear ear protection and observe all safety rules. Better yet, dig up some of the articles written on this and skip the home science demonstration and related risks. I know Ayoob wrote something about this a few years back.

For the record, I am not recommending that anyone perform such a test.

[field70]

Thanks, JNewell... Mine is a year 1995 or 96 production (interarms)..Has the hammerdrop safety, so it should be ok with the saftey on. but I don't know about it with safety off...I'll do some research...Thanks again.

[mainmech48]

I had a lot of fun with my S&W 63. 4" bbl kinda kept it out of the "pocket" catagory, but it was a great plinker and tackle box gun.

Taurus 94 is much the same, but with 9 rd cylinder. Generally not as slick OTB as a Smith, but improves nicely with some use. Around here they can be had for 1/3 to 1/2 less money - new or used.

Want a 317 badly! Same fun with half the weight. Just can't bring myself to pony up the $s yet.

Outfit called "American Arms" (IIRC) used to make an Erma Werke-designed budget clone of the PPK in .22. Model was called RX-22 or PX-22, IIRC. I only saw a couple in actual use and only got to fire one. That one worked just dandy, and they were a lot less expensive than even a "beater" Walther. You might turn one up at a show for next-to-nothing.

A Beretta 21A used to be my "always" gun until the nifty little Keltec P-32 came along. Kinda picky about ammo, and I never did find anything that would run absolutely 100% for more than four or five mags full. Still a hoot to plink with, which I do semi-often. Just would be wary about entrusting my Personal Favorite Behind to it unless I had no other choice.

Astra, Star, and a few others also made teeny little pocket semis for a bunch of years. Almost all of the rimfire versions were .22 Short only. Most were of very nice quality and can be had in VG condition at low prices due to the chambering. If you've got some Shorts hoarded, they're a gas to play with.

The older Beretta "mid-sized" .22s like the "Jaguar", the Star "F" series, Astra Constable, etc. are still out there, but some are getting pricey due to collector interest.

Maybe not a true "pocket" gun, but the current favorite of my young nephews (and their old uncle) for a plinkfest is the Ruger Bearcat. Simple, sweet and hard to beat.

[MikeK]

I have a S&W 317 - 3 " w/ adjustable sights , 8 rounds ~ 11 oz. It's fun, but the DA trigger is terrible. SA is not bad, but nothing like most other S&W revolvers. If I had it to do over again I'd probably go with the shorter (1 7/8) barrel and fixed sights. Either will fit in a pocket and you won't feel the weight.

[shep854]

I've never shot one, but a Ruger SP101 in .22 might be a option. It's a 6shot in stainless with windage-adjustable rear sight. It comes with 2- and 3-inch barrel. The only downside I can see is that it is fairly weighty for its size.

For me, it's my lead candidate for a .22 revo. I have no desire for a revolver with more than 6 rounds. Too many holes to clean.

Anybody tried one?

[denfoote]

DMK,
The .22LR PP is very rare, but can be had...for a price!!

Here is what one will cost you!!

PP .22LR 5.6mm
(.22 LR) $ 1095.00

http://www.carlwalther.com/

If I were you, I'd go with the Smith J-frame!!! ;)

[gvass]

PP/PPK
"The older ones aren't drop-safe. You should be able to duplicate the experiment that someone I know performed with a primed, empty case. Strike the hammer with a deadblow hammer and see what happens. "

Nothing will happen.

The original German PP/PPK have some kind of hammer-block passive safety. Until the trigger is not fully pulled back, the hammer can not contatc with the firing pin.

(The only way they can be fired without pulling the trigger is to drop from 3-4 meters height on concrete, because the firing pin itself is not blocked.)

I have one WW2 German PP (.32 ACP) here in the safe right now...

[DMK]

DMK,
The .22LR PP is very rare, but can be had...for a price!!

Here is what one will cost you!!

PP .22LR 5.6mm
(.22 LR) $ 1095.00

Well, I ended up buying a Manhurin .22LR PP for less than half that price. I should get it sometime this week and I'll make a post in the semi forum. I'll probably still get a .22 J-frame sometime, but I always wanted a .22 PP/PPK.

With the a .32 PP, a CZ-70, a Mak, a .38 J-frame and now a .22LR PP, I'm starting to build a real collection of pocket guns. :p

[MrPink]

Here's an interesting variation of the J-frame:

http://www.firearms.smith-wesson.com/store/index.php3?cat=294660&item=865231&sw_activeTab=2

351PD, 7 shot 22 Mag, J-frame snubbie. As soon as they get approved for sale in MD, I'm thinking of selling my 317 and upgrading. The only thing I'm not wild about is the HI-viz front sight, but hopefully that can be replaced.

J-frame pocket carry but with the increased oomph of the 22 Mag.

[nero45acp]

I had a Walther PP in .22LR that I bought at Earl's Repair for around $1000. It was finicky with ammo and one mag didn't work worth a darn. Sold it (at a loss) :(

Bought a LNIB S&W 4" M63 for $350 and couldn't be happier with it! My twelve year old son loves it. It's 100% reliable and more accurate than the Walther.


nero

[Nick96]

I believe the original post indicated the gun would be used for fun / plinking. If those are the conditions - the PPK is better looking - fun to shoot - and who cares about reliability.

I had a Wather PP .32 once that was a jewel. Also had a Walther .380 PPK/S that was junk. I have neither now since both became unreliable (the .32 was 40 years old and flat worn out - the PPK/S was ..... JUNK from the begining).

I have both a .22 revolver & a couple of autos. I find the revolver to be a lot more fun. And, it doubles as a cheap ammo under study for a similar frame sized .357.

At my station in life I'd recommend the small frame revolver. In the long run it's going to be a lot more versitle, more fun and actually will improve your overall shooting skills. But, if the desire is just plain old range fun - get what ever tickels your fancy. Between a J-Frame revolver and a PPK though - the revolver is more likely to remain in the range bag for years to come. The "sex appeal" will wear off of the PPK sooner than you think.

[nero45acp]

quote "and who cares about reliability"

I suspect alot of gun owners care about reliability.

Personally, having to fiddle-fart around with an unreliable gun is not a recipe for fun. :banghead:



nero

[Jim K]

I guess .22 LR PPK's are far more common that I thought. Maybe Manurhin made more than Walther did pre-war. If anyone knows where pre-war .22 PPK's can be bought in 100% condition for $500, please let me know, as I will be writing checks.

As to safety, all the PP and PPK pistols have a firing pin lock that prevents forward motion of the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled. It is similar in concept to the firing pin lock on the Series 80 Colt Government Models, although it works a little differently. In addition, the PP and PPK have a true hammer block safety, as does the Heeres Pistole (HP) model. The HP successor, the P.38, was changed for cost saving and ease of manufacture to have the firing pin locked by the safety rather than the safety blocking access to the firing pin. The P.38 system is less safe and failure of the safety on decocking has occurred, resulting in full auto firing.

Jim

[Nick96]

Nero,

Perhaps I should have just cut to the chase!!!

GIVEN THE CHOICE - CHOOSE A REVOLVER

[DBR]

I beg to differ re: the passive firing pin safety. I do not know about the 22lr version, but none of the five 380 PPK/PPKS USA made guns I have owned had any firing pin safety. If the slide mounted safety is engaged then the firing pin is blocked. If the safety is not engaged then the inertia firing pin can and does fire the gun if the gun is dropped on the muzzle.

[DMK]

I guess .22 LR PPK's are far more common that I thought. Maybe Manurhin made more than Walther did pre-war. I supect that may be true, or at least perhaps they are less collectible because of the Manhurin name on them and not many understand the relationship/history of Manhurin and Walther post WII.

If anyone knows where pre-war .22 PPK's can be bought in 100% condition for $500, please let me know, as I will be writing checks.
There's a few .22LR PPs in the following links. Some are the post-war Manhurins, and some are not, but I don't know if the latter are pre or post war. I found these site on a web search comparing prices. I actually found quite a few on the web, but these are the only ones I can remember off hand.

http://www.simpsonltd.com/Showroom/Walther/walther.htm

http://www.germansales.com/limited.htm

[JNewell]

Nothing will happen.

The original German PP/PPK have some kind of hammer-block passive safety. Until the trigger is not fully pulled back, the hammer can not contatc with the firing pin.

(The only way they can be fired without pulling the trigger is to drop from 3-4 meters height on concrete, because the firing pin itself is not blocked.)

I wasn't trying to say that the hammer can contact the firing pin. However, you can simulate the inertial force, but it is inertia, not the blow on the hammer itself that would cause it to fire. Personally, I wouldn't try testing it either way.


If the slide mounted safety is engaged then the firing pin is blocked. If the safety is not engaged then the inertia firing pin can and does fire the gun if the gun is dropped on the muzzle.

I believe that's right also -- they are drop safe with the safety on. They shouldn't be carried with a round in the chamber without the safety engaged.

[gvass]

"You're right and wrong. You can simulate the inertial force, but it's inertia, not the blow on the hammer itself that would cause it to fire. Personally, I wouldn't try testing it either way."

If you do not drop it from some very high place to some very solid and hard surface, there is not enough inertia for the light firing pin to hit hard enough.

(The same as on Kel-Tec pistols)

If you hit the hammer (and theoretically the gun is fixed in its place), the only possibility to fire is to broke the hammer off, and the broken part will hit the firing pin.

It is very unlikely, and from this point the older HiPower or pre-series80 M1911 are no more safe.

Personally I have never heard of any AD of decocked and safety off PP/PPKs.

[scubie02]

I've owned a couple of Beretta 21's and have to say they were both extremely reliable and surprisingly accurate. I think the older ones were better made than the newer ones, but they are still decent now. The nice thing about a 22 is its cheap to shoot/practice with. And even though most of the time I carry a 1911--either full size or compact--lets face it there are times when you just need something REALLY concealable. The Beretta fits the bill for that. The only problem is that if you ever DID have a problem, Beretta's customer service really sucks (found this out with a rifle I had). But it seems like you have a decent chance of not having a problem with the 21. Oh, also, the tip up barrel is nice for loading/unloading safely.

I also have a Keltec P32 which you might want to consider since they are lighter and thinner even than the Beretta. They ain't pretty but they work well. I didn't get it because its a 32 rather than a 22--in this size range you are looking at head shots or deterrence factor from being shot rather than quick kills from body shots anyway, and a 22 hole in the head is probably as effective as a 32. I know a "professional" who carries the Beretta as a BUG who when recommending it and seeing I was dubious said "there's no such thing as a "good" hole in the head..."

[No Trespassing]

I have a Colt Jr. in .22short that my dad gave me last year.

He bought it new in 1962 or so and still had the box and the little cleaning rod that came with it.

It's the tiniest little semi-auto I've ever seen. It shots pretty darn straight out to 10 yards too! I don't know if they ever made them in .22LR but that would have been a neat little package.

MC