Ammo choices for 4" barreled .357

I have been using .38spl +P for practice; and am looking for
an inexpensive ammo to use for practice/killing those
Evil Water-filled Milk Jugs, and that would be acceptable
for self-defense.

My current favorite for price/accuracy is Winchester USA38JHP;

I found that Federal 38E tend to shoot 2" higher. I havn't yet tried
the Speer gold dot yet (I intend to this weekend). I am on a budget
so ammo that comes in 50rd boxes is prefered.

I can buy Win whitebox locally for about $11/50 so that works well.
(I can get about 18rds in a 4" circle at 10yards (did I mention that
I suck ;) )

I keep a speedloader filled with .357Mag silvertips for social-work.
(they tend to shoot 4" high vs the .38spl+ ammo I use)

I am a small guy (5'1" 160lbs) with small hands which
doesn't do me any favors .
:cuss:

I am shooting these from my S&W Model 19 K-frame with a 4" barrel.

Any other suggestions on ammo to try?

Federal Classic 125gr JHP (357B) It works well in my 4" guns.

Ammo man has 500 rounds for $149 delivered

Does your gun have fixed or adj. sites? I have found the most accurate load to use in my 4" GP-100 is Winchester 110gr. JHP, followed by Winchester 145gr. Silvertips.

The S&W model 19 has adjustable sights. I used to shoot Winchester's white box 110 grain JHP magnums (Q4204), but after 300 rounds, I found the forcing cone in my model 19 was becoming eroded. It now sees downloaded handloads and bullets heavier than 125 grains for practice. Anyway, the 110 grain white box ammo was pretty impressive. Nice ball of fire at the muzzle, loud, controllable, a real crowd pleaser!

but after 300 rounds, I found the forcing cone in my model 19 was becoming eroded.

Haven't seen any of that with my GP-100.

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but after 300 rounds, I found the forcing cone in my model 19 was becoming eroded.
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Haven't seen any of that with my GP-100.
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This touches a subject I have never figured out or had explained adequately. The Winchester (USA) white box 110 grain JHP .357 has a nominal velocity of 1295 fps from a 4 inch barrel and about the same energy as the Remington medium velocity 125 grain load at 1220 fps from a 4 inch barrel (about 412 ft/lbs). Most 158 grain loads are listed at 1235 fps from a 4 inch barrel and most 125 grain full-power loads are nominally listed at 1450 fps from the same 4 inch barrel. I just don't understand how the medium-loaded 110s could be especially hard on a revolver. Now the Cor-Bon 110 grainer listed at around 1500 fps or more from a 4 inch barrel...now I can understand the stress that one might put on a handgun! But I don't get why the modest 110's would hurt a modern revolver.

Tanfj,

If you want a proven and relatively inexpensive 38+p load that will work well for self-defense, the 158 gr. Lead semiwadcutter Hollow point is as good as anything out there; Remington and Winchester currently load it, and it should cost less than jost of the jacketed HPs out there.

The problem is, there are about a grillion loads for your gun (also the strength of the 38/357). Since your gun has adjustable sights, the question of how high or low a load shoots is not critical (though you may find that one weight or lload is more accurate than others)--just that you know how to adjust them so your point of aim coincides with the point of impact with whatever load you select.

You don't have to choose one load for all the time or for everything. If you choose a 125 gr, or 158 gr, load for your 'serious' load, just pick a practice load of the same bullet weight; and, despite differences in velocity, it'll shoot relatively close to the same point of aim. The Silvertips you're using are a fine load; are they accurate and controllable for you? If so, just seek a practice round that shoots close enough to the same point, and you're good to go.

As for small hands; what kind of grips are you using? There are a lot of possibilities, including some very narrow, and some very thick, that cover or don't cover the backstrap.

The S&W model 19 has adjustable sights. I used to shoot Winchester's white box 110 grain JHP magnums (Q4204), but after 300 rounds, I found the forcing cone in my model 19 was becoming eroded. It now sees downloaded handloads and bullets heavier than 125 grains for practice. Anyway, the 110 grain white box ammo was pretty impressive. Nice ball of fire at the muzzle, loud, controllable, a real crowd pleaser!

I remember a thread on Glock Talk about the model 19 (and other K Frames) that indicated that they were designed to handle the 158 gr loads at 1250 fps and that the new hotter loads (110's and 125's @ 1400+ fps) would cause flame cutting among other things. I wish I could be more specific, but I'm having problems finding the thread right now.

Gary A: what's happening is that the lighter load may not have more energy, in fact it may have less, but it's moving MUCH faster within the first 1/4" to 1/2" of travel than the heavier 140s/158s. It's a function of both the lighter weight of the projectile and the faster-burn powder you use with the lighter slugs.

With a bullet that's heavy for the caliber (158 or greater 357, fr'instance) you can use a slower-burn powder (and you need more of it). Then on firing, the momentum of the heavy slug takes a fraction of a second more to begin accellerating than a lightweight would; this gives the slow-burn powder a chance to "catch fire" and start picking up serious speed AFTER the first 1/4" to 1/2" - which means it goes SLOWLY past the forcing cone (relatively speaking, anyhow).

This is also why, assuming two slugs are both jacketed, the lighter slug will perform better in a short barrel. It starts it's accelleration cycle earlier in the barrel length. This is why the guys with 3" barrel 45ACPs should be using 165 - 185grain slugs, and the guys with 2" barrel SP101s or similar will get best performance with a Cor-Bon 357 125grain loaded hell for leather and doing better than 1,350 from a 2".

BUT: in my opinion, once you have a 4" barrel 357 on your hands, the Gold Dot 158 as loaded by Speer, Proload, Black Hills and Georgia Arms at around 1,250fps from a 4" tube is a GREAT load and won't beat up an S&W 19/66/etc much. Certainly less than full-house 125s/110s. And when bought mail-order from Georgia Arms in the hundred-pack, is VERY economical to shoot, esp. for a real fighting load.

Well, I did a side by side test between my usual
125gr WinUSA .38spl and Speer Gold-dot 125gr.

Same point of aim; but the Gold Dot had tighter groups.
And judging from the water filled milk jugs; the Gold Dots
have the edge in KE delivered to target. (according to the
charts they are identical in weight and speed to the WinUSA
round; local prices are $11/20 for Gold Dot and $10/50 for
the USA brand.)

If I am gonna shoot .357mag I shoot Silvertips (local price,
around $22-25/50).

While I realise that I /can/ adjust my sights I hate to do it
once I get them in. :neener:

I called Smith and Wesson and asked what round
they recommemded for .357Mag in my 19, they
said to stick with 158 gr ammo. I figgures thats
straight from the horse's mouth. (or the other end as
the case may be) :D

I called Smith and Wesson and asked what round
they recommemded for .357Mag in my 19, they
said to stick with 158 gr ammo.
Wait two weeks, call them back and ask the question again. Then repeat twice more.

I had a similar experience with a question about a 629-1 and got a different story every time.

Jim March - I appreciate your response to my question as I always enjoy your take on wheelguns. I have encountered that explanation before and it does make sense...except that most 110 loads, Winchester in particular, are not loaded any hotter than 9mm plus P and develop even LESS pressure (based on standards). Furthermore, 125 grain loads exit a snubby barrel MUCH faster and even 145 and many 158 grain loads are almost as fast from a snubby barrel as the 110s. Yes, I understand they may not be faster as they enter the forcing cone. Don't get me wrong, I surely believe the 125 grain loads and the HOT (1500 fps) 110 grain loads would be hard on a forcing cone, but I have a hard time getting how the Winnie 110's (Weenie 110s??) could be. One would think 9mm revolvers would suffer from the plus P 115s if that were true. I was always under the impression that the 110s were developed for smaller snubbies, K-frame in particular to lessen the recoil. Oh well, my SP101 can probably take more of the 110s than I will ever shoot from it. I would use 158s but, honestly, I cannot shoot them as well as I can the lighter loads...not by a long shot. If I could, I would. I don't like the rip-snorting 125s; they are hard on any gun, IMO. I love the Silvertips but they also are hard to shoot from my snub. At least for me.

I have small hands also. In fact Colt D frames ( DS, Diamondback, Cobra, Police Positive ) fit my hand better than the Smith K frames, but the smaller wood magna type such as come on fixed sight K frames used with a grip adapter ( not target type oversize grips ) work alright for me. The Herretts grips also work if you can get them.

And finally, if your hand is that small, grab a set of old K frame target grips and start sanding. Take off all the checkering and you've got a start. Keep going.

I did that to a set of N frame target grips and I can now feel confident with the index those grips give me. Had to take the medallions off and reset them, I took so much wood off. They unfortunately increase the felt recoil on my M58 41mag due to their narrowness, so I'm moving them to a M28 Highway Patrolman 357, which I can control better. The target grips do let recoil spread across a wider area of your web.

Also, if your M19 has a target trigger, swap it out for a narrow one, or have the one on your gun narrowed. If you have a frame with square butt, they can be reduced so round butt stocks will bolt on. That helps a bunch. There should be some smith out there who remembers how.

Tanfj: I assume you're comparing Gold Dot 125grain 38+P?

Those have generally tested pretty good from a 2" snubby 38, so they oughta perform quite well out of a 4" tube. Along with the Winchester 130 Supreme +P and the 158+P lead hollowpoints by Win and Remmie, they're what I was recommending months ago for 38+P defensive fodder and ain't gotten worse since :).

The new 135 Gold Dot may top the older 125 Gold Dot in 38+P. Esp. from a 2" tube...2" barrel 38s are marginal, if Speer really has tuned the 135 for snubbies like they claim it'll be a nice load. Those with 4"ers need not be quite as picky :).

(Until I score some 135s, I'm relying on the Winchester 130s and 158s, both +P, in my bedside 38 snub.)

Russlate, I did replace the stock wooden grips with some
nice Houge mono-grips. hehe I likes them I does.

Jim March, I may have to look up the 135 gr gold dot .38spl+p;
sounds interesting.

Tanjf--If you LIKE the Gold Dot 125-gr. JHP +P's, look at Georgia Arms ammo...they sell at gunshows thruout the SE AND by mailorder...have a user-friendly website, too...their "Shear Power Plus" ammo is loaded w/Gold Dots...the .38 Special 125-gr. Plus-P's are $12.50/50, 24.50/100...NOT including S&H or taxes, where applicable...EXCELLENT quality ammo, too...HTH....mikey357