[Harold Mayo]

This is a little off-topic but close enough that I think the good moderators of THR will let it stay:

Another thread set me to thinking about what skills and traits are valued in today's society in a man (or, to be PC (see...it even happens here), in a responsible PERSON), as opposed to what traits USED to be valued. Also, WHY are they valued?

[Harold Mayo]

I'll answer my own question...

Honesty doesn't SEEM to be valued as much. I'm 32 but in my own lifetime it seems like honesty has dropped down the list as something desirable in favor of a "subjective" approach to the truth. If JFK had been caught in a Monica Lewinsky-like controversy, would he have minced words like Slick Willy did or would he have owned up to the truth? Would Woodrow Wilson? Would U.S. Grant? Would Thomas Jefferson? Times do change and all, but it just seems like honesty is considered more of a burden now than a virtue. Perhaps I'm just growing up and getting cynical.

"Manly" skills and efforts aren't encouraged or admired as much and that is a fact.

Shooting, once admired, is now looked upon as something done by hicks, gang members, and wacky survivalists.

Contact sports like boxing are looked upon as being too rough and the province of professional athletes or oddballs who are "wannabe" fighters. It's great to do a cardio kick-boxing class or tae bo and they're often sold as something that could help you defend yourself, too, but heaven forbid actually ever FIGHTING in one of those classes. I've been involved in martial arts in one way or another for 16 years. It is pitiful, even in that amount of time, how many "serious" martial arts classes have fallen by the wayside and how many no-contact schools have prospered. Even in the late 1980's there was plenty of full-contact in even my small home town. Now there is practically none at all.

The appearance of something seems to be more important than actually WHAT it does or can do. People make plenty of noise but few actually DO anything. Most politicians want to look like they're doing something but never follow up on anything that gets passed. Just the sheer fact that some bill got made into law is enough for them to point to as proof of their success...whether it actually works or not seems not to matter.

Ah, well...anyone else? Perhaps I am just a little jaded and disillusioned, perhaps not. Anyone? I would especially appreciate comments from those of more advanced years since their perspective is going to span more time.

[wanderinwalker]

Well, my last year at Boy Scout camp, I learned that it is not considered "manly" to solve a problem without asking for help. For some reason I was required to have assistance. :rolleyes:

From my last girlfriend I learned that it is not acceptable to enjoy hunting. I also learned that proper teenage-male form is to want to get drunk, stoned and laid (sorry, I know it's crude). Sorry if I'm not a proper modern teenager then!

Physical challenge and adversity are things that people aren't supposed to willingly seek out. (Nobody ever told me that though.) It is also improper to have my hunting guns stored in a glass case in my bedroom where visitors can look at them if they so chose.

There is more, most likely. But that's all I have off of the top of my head. I may be back later to add more.

[Blackhawk]

What traits and skills are valued in our society today? Actually, I think mostly the same traits and skills as in the past, but a far greater number of people can't do them so THEY don't overtly value them, and those are the ones running schools, the media, etc., so they don't get the focus.

The "old" school skills certainly contribute to self reliance, confidence, and survival abilities, and those won't ever be out of style.

It goes back to the old question of who would you rather be stranded on a desert island with?

[Viking6]

what skills and traits are valued in today's society ?

In that portion of society that is portrayed via our media the skill to:

1) Make money

2) Make more money

3) Flaunt convention and still succeed (Assuming there is such a thing as convention)

I'm probably overly cynical!

[Azrael256]

I agree on the honesty part. Nobody seems to be too terribly honest anymore. Eagle scouts lie, cheat, steal, and beat their wives. Maybe it was always like that, I don't really know, but it is more and more prevailent.

When I enter a home or a house of worship, I remove my hat. Always. My dad would have slapped me so hard that my ears would still be ringing if I hadn't. I see young men in this chapel (I work in the chapel at my university) with their hats on every day. It just sends a shiver up my spine.

Somebody mentioned penmanship in the previous thread. Add typing to that. In order to be proficient in todays world, a good command of a keyboard is rather important. People don't write letters much anymore, so the art of writing has been lost to some extent. Maybe writing altogether will go at some point in the future, but it pays to be proficient in both at the moment.

When I take a lady out on a date, I ALWAYS open doors, pull out chairs, etc. The second date is contingent upon her reaction. If she says a quick and polite thank-you and then waits for me to open the next door, I will call on her again. If she is offended, or simply fails to notice, that will be our last meeting. Again, dad would have knocked me into next week for failing to do so. I know very few other young men who do this.

I have a professor who almost insists that we call her by her first name. I have yet to bring myself to do that. I call all my professors Dr. ABC, with the one exception being my Japanese professor, who I address as ABC-Sensei, which is proper in Japanese. I say things like "Sir" and "Maham" every day, and I get funny looks now and then. I simply cannot bring myself to address people with whom I do not have a personal relationship by their first names. This is a very common problem. If you are going to treat people with respect, it has to start with the first words out of your mouth. I think this comes from the idea of social equality. The fact is that I am NOT the equal of my history professor who has a PhD and 30 years of teaching under his belt. When I have my PhD, and have taught for some time, I will consider addressing him by his first name, not before.

Standing up is another big one that I don't see much. I understand that it may not be practical when a lady enters a classroom, particularly in a mixed environment such as my school, but I have been laughed at for standing when a lady approaches or leaves the dinner table at a restaurant. This is another situation where dad would have given me a concussion. It is simply polite and respectful to do so, and it really requires very little effort, but it never happens anymore.

Nowadays, a man has to be "sensitive." In all honesty, I am not completely sure what that means. A gentleman has always been expected to be compassionate, and he should always be polite, so what does "sensitive" mean? I am not pink and fuzzy and cute, and I cannot compromise my values, so I guess I'm "insensitive."

As you observed, we are not allowed to be violent anymore. We have been taught that violence doesn't solve anything. Now we are taught to settle disputes with kind words and a mediator. I settled my own problems on the playground with a few punches, and that was the end of it. I don't recall ever seeing a police car show up, and nobody ever got sued. The only thing that happened was a detention or a note home from the principal. Stepping out in the alley, rolling up sleeves, and having a go at it is a perfectly reasonable way to settle a dispute, and when conducted properly, it usually ends right there.

Wow, I've been ranting for quite awhile. Time to give the keyboard a rest. :)

[CZ-75]

Conformity is highly valued.


Honesty ought to be valued but, to be practical, I can see why it isn't. Think of the folks who have acted in the right, yet been prosecuted. I'm sure you can think of examples.

This brings us to the next valued value: Cover Your A--.

[Leatherneck]

Good question. I don't think there's any single set of answers that would apply to all, or even the majority, of society. I do observe that older people of diverse backgrounds tend to value more and more such traits as honesty, industry, and loyalty. Whether that's a product of the era in which we were raised, or a product of maturity I can't prove; but I lean toward the theory that true values are an important part of becoming mature.

TC
TFL Survivor

[Betty]

Hmm. I think I'll drop this one into L&P.

:uhoh:

[Chris Rhines]

Conformity.
Expedience.
Irrationality.
Emotionalism.
Irresponsibility.
Ethical weakness.

Cynical? Who, me?

- Chris

[Harold Mayo]

Good one, Chris. And the quote in the signature line is quite appropriate. Makes me depressed as hell over my lost innocence, but still a good post...;)

[Soap]

I think the same things are valued in our society as they were in years past. The path to get there is just different. For example, I can't whittle a flint knife. But I have chosen a career path where I can make unlimited amounts of money depending on how I do. It all comes down to a few things*: Survival (which includes luxury) and Procreation. The methods used to survive and to procreate are just a little different today than they were say even 50 years ago.






*Disclaimer- I completely just pulled that outta thin air after a long hard day of operations management and finance.

[ahenry]

I think the last post actually shows a difference in goals and objectives between past generations (say the WWII or before) and the current generation*. Speaking solely based on my conversations with “oldtimers” and my reading of the first-hand accounts of their lives and such, their emphasis was not near as heavily placed on “success” or luxury as it is today. *Shrug* maybe I’m misinterpreting things, but I don’t think so.




*I mean no offence to those whose life goals are success and luxury. Not a thing wrong with either of those things. Please don’t interpret what I said the wrong way.

[Soap]

ahenry- No offense taken. What would you say were the values that the "old-timers" held dear?

[Skunkabilly]

Men:
Money
Power

Women:
Sex

[Chris Rhines]

Skunky - You have those exactly backwards. :D

- Chris

[ahenry]

I appreciate you taking that in the spirit it was intended, just an observation on the difference between generations.

I would have to say that I think what society as a whole valued “back then” was family. Obviously more than a few people valued money or power or “image” or whatever, but I think as far as an across the board statement can be made, the most important thing was family.

[Harold Mayo]

Well...I don't totally disagree. We all WANT the same things...that never changes.

A serf in someone's barony hundreds of years ago wanted the best part of the crops that he farmed that he could get, wanted to have children that survived childhood, and hoped that he didn't have to go to war for his lord...no different than any other time period.

What we actually value in terms of traits and skills...the "how" of attaining our goals...is that different?

[jmbg29]

What traits and skills are valued in our society today? All too few of the good and important ones.

Regardless, here I stand.


"Better to die on one's feet than to live on one's knees."

Dolores Ibarruri

[biere]

There will always be different traits and values, it depends on who you are and how you grew up.

What I can't believe is that someone would pay 5 dollars to have one button sewn back on their shirt instead of buying a needle and thread for a couple bucks and doing it themselves. And that needle and thread can be used for a lot more buttons after that one is done.

Many people don't want to do things themselves because they can work harder and then pay someone else to do it for them.

I learn how to do things myself so I can save money by not paying someone else to do it for me. I will admit in some cases it is cheaper to pay someone with the right tools and equipment and knowledge to do something for me. Each of those are considered and dealt with as I decide if it would pay off for me to learn to do it or not. An example would be me buying plinking 9mm ammo vs. reloading it myself. Or buying a knife in a store vs. trying to make one myself.

I value all skills highly, but there are some that save me money while others would more than likely cost me money over my lifetime.

As for being pc, I moved to the country so I could get away from that since it is simply dragging everyone down because it is no longer acceptable to be able to do things yourself like hunt, or butcher a deer, or shoot a gun with accuracy, or snare your dinner, and hundreds of other things. It cost me way to much to try and be pc for the area I was in.

[Soap]

ahenry- I deliberately used very broad ideas such as survival for a reason. Family and the standard family unit are both directly related to survival and procreation. In fact, family represents one of the most stable modes of survival and procreation.

[Atticus]

I think the same values (honesty, trust, loyalty, compassion) are appreciated even more today...because they are practiced so much less. I'm sadly suprised, even shocked, when a stranger is nice or polite to me. Even more so if it is someone like a store clerk who is earning a living because of me.

[ahenry]

I was kinda going off of your huge amounts of money comment. Survival and procreation are necessities of life. I’m not arguing that. I am arguing that those are not the “traits and skills” valued by society. I’m suggesting that the “traits and skills” valued by society as a whole here in America are not the same as they were 75 or so years ago.

[Soap]

ahenry- I understand what you are saying but I think that many human values are directly related to survival and procreation. Survival could include things such as displaying how well you are surviving through luxury, or even helping out your fellow human being (because you couldn't "survive" with yourself if you didn't). Procreation could include things such as sexual morality or immorality, or the standard family unit. But in the end, many things boil down to these two ultimate goals. How we reach these ultimate goals, differs from generation to generation...and yes I'm still pulling this out of thin air :)

[Psssniper]

Integrity and honesty, virtues forgotten in this day and age.
After 23 years of self employment I took a job with a small company doing construction defect investigation. It was going well until the the boss asked me to fudge my Billable hours. It was only a matter of 8 hours in an 80 hour pay period. Many a man would have done it with no questions asked because this was a HIGH paying job. I quit the next day. I am back running my own business with my integrity and honesty still intact. I look for these traits in men that I deal with in business. If they cost a little more it's worth it. A man I met once, who was on the board at Ford, said that many major deals he worked on were handshakes only. He also said there wasn't a man there who would break his word as that would be the last deal he ever did.

[wingman]

The appearance of something seems to be more important than actually WHAT it does or can do. People make plenty of noise but few actually DO anything. "

Also greed seems high on most valued
list.

[DeltaElite]

In my personal world, honesty, integrity, honor, etc.
In my workplace, back stabbing, butt kissing and political correctness, etc.:banghead:

[ReadyontheRight]

The ability to GOLF well seems to be much more valued than the ability to SHOOT well.:rolleyes:

[Zander]

I ALWAYS open doors, So do I. Many years ago, I exited a taxi and proceeded to the front entrances of the Burlinton Bldg. in NYC. Opened one of the glass doors and, seeing someone following me into the entrance, took the time to hold the door open for her.

Not only did she not accept my kindness, she berated me, exclaiming [vulgarly] that she was perfectly capable of opening the door by herself.

My response was that I was raised by parents who taught me that I should extend such a basic courtesy to *anyone*, no matter their age or sex.

Just a minute later, we were both waiting for the same elevator to the upper levels of the BB; the door opened, she entered, and looking back to see me trying to enter the same already-crowded elevator [nature abhors a vacuum, especially in NY bldg. elevators], smiled while she cleared out a space for me to step on-board.

Thirty-minutes later, we were seated across from each other at the same board-room table. :cool:

There's never an excuse for not showing your fellow human being a basic courtesy...no matter the political mindset. Some of us have a better appreciation of that than others...

And even more on topic, shortly thereafter my encounter in NYC and in other venues helped me decide that the fast-lane of the corporate world wasn't for me. I've never regretted taking that decision, especially considering the PC minefields that current-day employees must negotiate.

[Kaylee]

Azrael, Zander (and others, you know who you are).. thank you.

There is nothing so refreshingly charming these days as a real gentleman. Y'all really are appreciated. May you spend your days with the fine ladies you deserve :)


As far as traits that are admired these days.. I'd say --

"unconventionality" -- as expressed by thoroughly pedestrian rudeness and frequent use of the word "paradigm."

"individualism" -- as demonstrated by parroting whatever was said on the last edition of "MTV Rock the Vote."

"social consciousness" -- as demonstrated by an insistence that everybody be given Free Stuff, since They Deserve It. The Evil White Men can foot the bill, since They Got It On The Backs Of The Disadvantaged.

and finally, lest we forget the biggie...

"Diversity" or "Tolerence" -- as demonstrated by judging people by what their skin color is or who they're sleeping with. Except instead of thinking said person is horrid or immoral for said condition, assuming they must be saints. Oh.. and everyone who doesn't feel as Compassionately patronizing as oneself is a bigot.

This last is part and parcal of Cult of the Victim. Find something you can claim makes you a disadvantaged minority (say, spoiled suburban white chick discovers Wicca and now rails on endlessly about "The Burning Times").. voila! Instant Victimhood == DoublePlus Good.


Thereyago. Cultural assets of 21st century America.

Thankfully, we still grow some good folks, even in this generation. Besides, I get the feeling most young punks eventually straighten out... I know I've met more than a few wonderful solid people who were more than a little screwed up as kids.... not that I'd ever admit to such a condition. ;)


-K

[ahenry]

Daniel,

I think we just disagree on what constitutes, “traits and skills valued by society”.

[twoblink]

I just asked my gf this question, and she replied...

Doesn't drink, smoke, do drugs, gamble, beat his wife, is honest, has integrity, can protect himself and his family, will hold himself accountable for the things he is responsible of, will make some money and feed his family and mind his kids.

Wow... everything the government doles out money for you not to be!!

Government will give you money if you do drugs, if you don't work, if you lie, cheat, steal, and are dishonest.. No wonder I will never get elected as a political leader..:rolleyes:

Society values stupidity and rediculous 10-second soundbytes.. if you don't believe me, ask Julia Roberts..

[nualle]

Psssniper recalled:A man I met once, who was on the board at Ford, said that many major deals he worked on were handshakes only. He also said there wasn't a man there who would break his word as that would be the last deal he ever did.
Of course they did. The stakes were high for their own self-interest. I'll gladly call it integrity if they treat their employees the same way.