Gov't surveillance of mail order ammo?


PDA






Declaration Day
June 13, 2004, 09:21 PM
A friend of mine has been ordering large amounts of ammo via mail and is having it sent to his place of work. He does this because of where he lives; he doesn't want it sitting on his porch unattended.
Last week, an FBI agent stopped by his work twice to question him. Both times, he was not there.
He is not doing anything illegal as far as I know. Have any of you heard of this before? Does this have something to do with the Patriot act? Any comments or experiences would be appreciated.
I was thinking about ordering some ammo online, but after hearing about this, I think I'll continue to pay cash for it at gun shows. I am not doing anything illegal either, but I don't think my ammo purchases are anyone's business, including the gov't. :fire:

If you enjoyed reading about "Gov't surveillance of mail order ammo?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
FMarlon
June 13, 2004, 10:09 PM
Is this man's name Mr. Anderson by chance?

tin foil hat warning

What's funny tho is my father in laws' neighbor is named Mr Anderson and while I was over at my father in laws house today, I was "photosniped" looking out the window.

coincidence?

I think not!

Phil in Seattle
June 13, 2004, 10:10 PM
Did the feds actually stop by his work or are his co-workers having fun with your friend?

7.62FullMetalJacket
June 13, 2004, 10:44 PM
News Alert. You aren't safe at gun shows either. ATFE is there too.

Declaration Day
June 13, 2004, 10:46 PM
I don't think his co-workers are playing with him. However if I find out that's the case, I'll be sure to post it.

DMF
June 13, 2004, 11:01 PM
http://www.glocktalk.com/images/smilies/tinfoil.gif

AZRickD
June 13, 2004, 11:35 PM
We once had a group buy of some .308 Port Milsurp which I somehow found myself the guy with 11,000 rounds of blammo. I think this might have been after the Patriot (gawd I hate marketing tags) Act. The UPS chick was rather perplexed that I had all of that stuff. Of course, I'm thinking that it was a UPS driver who ratted on David Koresh for de-milled, and perfectly legal hand grenades which he made into "Complaint Department: Pick a Number" trinkets.

I didn't get any calls for that. But a few years earlier, I did have a guy who claimed to be an FBI agent (from Show Low, Arizona) come to "look at the truck" I had for sale in the paper. This was back when we were being particularly annoying with the RBKA activism around Phoenix.

http://www.glocktalk.com/images/smilies/tinfoil.gif
Yeah, there is NO WAY an FBI Special Agent might just need a truck!
Yeah, he *seemed* like a truck-guy, but that could have been part of his clever disguise. :neener:

Rick

DMF
June 13, 2004, 11:39 PM
Yeah, there is NO WAY an FBI Special Agent might just need a truck!

whistlepig
June 14, 2004, 12:02 AM
Does this have something to do with the Patriot act?

Just might. Assume he's paying with a credit card? Banks are required to monitor and report anything suspicious.

hammer4nc
June 14, 2004, 12:23 AM
Link: http://www.virginislandsdailynews.com/index.pl/article_home?id=5828599
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
U.S. Attorney announces initiatives to rid territory's streets of illegal firearms

ST. CROIX - Police records show that 180 guns were reported stolen on St. Croix alone in the last decade, U.S. Attorney David Nissman said Thursday.

Those guns often end up being used in crime sprees. To curb the use of such firearms in criminal activities, federal and local officials are coming together to help get guns off the street through Project Safe Neighborhoods initiatives.

Final details still are being worked out, but beginning next month law enforcement officials will conduct an outreach program for students, clergy and licensed firearm owners in an effort to rid the territory's streets of guns.

Licensed firearm owners will play a large role in the effort, Nissman indicated.

"We're going to ask those people to subject their weapon to voluntary fingerprinting," he said, adding that this will require licensed gun owners to fire their weapons so that law enforcement officials can retain projectiles and spent shells to be matched up to evidence found at crime scenes.

Nissman said that in addition to being stolen, guns are brought into the Virgin Islands via planes, boats, containers and even the mail. At times, he said, officials have found guns sent through the mail with the serial number already obliterated, which is a federal crime.

While sending a gun through the mail requires only one shipment, sending ammunition for it is a repeated process that federal officials could track to pinpoint illegal transactions. Monitoring ammunition sales will help, Nissman said.

Under the initiative being developed, ammunition sellers will be required to keep a log of the types of ammunition sold to licensed gun owners, he said.

Also, when a licensed gun owner goes into a store to purchase ammunition and an unlicensed owner is directing the transaction, this should be cause for alarm, he said.

"Red flags ought to go off and law enforcement need to be notified," he said.

By July 7, law enforcement officials hope to meet with clergy and set up an outreach program for students on controlling anger and combating violence, he said.

"We don't want to see repeats of what happened at Complex last week," Nissman said, referring to the shooting death of 19-year-old Jahmalie Henry. A 17-year-old student from Central High School is accused of killing Henry with a sawed-off shotgun.

All reports indicate that the fight that led up to the slaying on Educational Complex's campus in front of hundreds of students stemmed from another fight during the weekend at Randall "Doc" James Racetrack.

Nissman said that he has asked the U.S. Justice Department to help incorporate training on coping with conflicts and violence into V.I. schools' curricula through its Community Relations Service program.

Another idea being considered is the establishment of a youth court program in which students would act as lawyers, judges and jurors in cases of violence at their schools, he said.

"None of these things are silver bullets. None of these things will solve all our problems alone, but if we can save one life, it will be worth it," Nissman said.

He added that under the territory's outreach program, postal services will be asked to do more screening of packages, but not to the point that it would constitute an invasion of privacy.

"Nobody should think that everything coming into the Virgin Islands will be screened," he said.

"Gun violence is a community plague, and it's only going to be eradicated by community involvement," he said. "Nobody is going to come here from somewhere else and solve this problem for us. Only we can solve this problem."

For example, he said, people can no longer sit back and expect someone else to call the police when they see a crime in progress.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Comment: Don't you just love the "voluntary" part...kind of like income taxes?

hammer4nc
June 14, 2004, 12:29 AM
Link: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/5/26/92715.shtml
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
California Senate Votes to Require Thumbprint to Buy Bullets
Susan Jones, CNSNews.com
Wednesday, May 26, 2004

The California Senate has passed a bill that would require ammunition buyers to provide a thumb print when the purchase is made. But a pro-Second Amendment group is condemning what it calls "an insidious invasion of privacy."
The Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (CCRKBA) says that keeping records on ammunition sales has proven ineffective in fighting crime. "Requiring a thumbprint moves this idea into the realm of the ludicrous," said CCRKBA Executive Director Joe Waldron.

"It's a waste of time and taxpayers' money, but more importantly, this constitutes a serious privacy issue. If this measure dealt with something other than a gun control issue, the ACLU would be screaming about it," Waldron added.

He said if the measure becomes state law, it would be yet another example of how California lawmakers treat honest gun owners like criminals.

"What comes next?" Waldron asked. "Will citizens be required to submit a fingerprint to buy a car? Will the next dumb idea force gun owners to submit their medical records before they can legally buy firearms and ammunition?"

Senate Bill 1152 passed the California Senate last week by a vote of 22-16 and now has been sent to the Assembly.

The bill requires that "all vendors of ammunition maintain specified information" on ammunition buyers, including: (1) the date of the transaction; (2) the name, address, and date of birth of the buyer; (3) the buyer's driver's license or other identification number and the state in which it was issued; (4) the brand, type, and amount of ammunition bought or transferred; (5) the buyer's signature; (6) the name of the salesperson who processed the transaction; and (7) "the vendor shall also at the time of purchase or transfer obtain the right thumbprint of the purchaser or transferee."

The information would have to be recorded on a special form provided by the State Department of Justice.

California law already makes it a crime for people who are prohibited from possessing firearms to possess ammunition. And it is a misdemeanor for any person to sell ammunition to anyone under the age of 18.

The Senate bill says dealers would have to retain records on ammunition sales for at least two years. Those records, CCRKBA said, might be used as evidence in cases where people who are barred from owning guns and ammunition are charged with illegally buying them.

"If this measure is enacted, it might result in the creation of a black market for ammunition," said Waldron. "It could also open the way for retailers to be prosecuted for a technical violation if they don't get a readable fingerprint. How many gun dealers know the proper way to roll a thumbprint? Is anybody in Sacramento thinking about any of this?" he asked.

CCRKBA said gun rights groups fought similar proposals 10 years ago because they accomplished nothing. "It would appear that some California lawmakers are no smarter now than they were then," Waldron said.

The Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms says it is dedicated to preserving firearms freedoms through active lobbying of elected officials and facilitating grass-roots organization of gun rights activists in local communities throughout the United States.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Our bureaucrats and elected representatives have way too much important crime-fighting tasks to attend to, than to start monitoring ammo sales!!! You guys are just paranoid!

Molon Labe
June 14, 2004, 09:38 AM
Last week, an FBI agent stopped by his work twice to question him. Both times, he was not there.Sorry, but I’m calling BS on this one.

flatrock
June 14, 2004, 12:30 PM
The most common reason FBI agents drop by people's place of employment is that they want to interview that person for someone else's background check. I've been interviewed for a number of people's background checks. They often show up unannounced and show the receptionist their badge and ask to speak with you.

HankB
June 14, 2004, 05:02 PM
GCA '68 imposed record keeping on ammo purchases. After tens - perhaps hundreds - of millions of records were recorded, the number of crimes solved could be indicated on the fingers of one hand.

With five digits left over. :rolleyes:

Which is why sanity prevailed - for a while, at least - and this nonsensical record keeping requirement was abolished.

PATH
June 15, 2004, 12:41 AM
FBI visited? Eh! What is the big deal. They can find out all they need to know without visiting you.

carpettbaggerr
June 15, 2004, 02:32 AM
So? Who cares? Love the new smiley, though.
Gonna get a good workout here. http://www.glocktalk.com/images/smilies/tinfoil.gif

bountyhunter
June 15, 2004, 01:33 PM
Last week, an FBI agent stopped by his work twice to question him. Both times, he was not there. Yeah, they have my house under surveillance as well. But, they're nice guys.... they always help me carry in the cases of 180-grain .40 because I have a bad back. Then we have some coffee and talk about when the revolution will probably start. Whatever you do, don't let them use your bathroom. Those black shoes scuff the linoleum.:rolleyes:

stevelyn
June 15, 2004, 03:34 PM
Banks are required to monitor and report anything suspicious.

I think my bank would find it suspicious if there wasn't a purchase on my statement from a local gun shop, Cabela's, Sportmans Warehouse or The Sportsmans Guide.:D

Declaration Day
June 15, 2004, 08:14 PM
Ok guys, enough with the jokes and tinfoil hats, here's the update. My buddy had his "interview", if that's what you want to call it. As it turns out, it had very little to do with him, and more to do with his boss. The business owner is an Iraqi-American, who cannot legally own firearms and whose business finances have recently been the subject of government scrutiny. Whether this is deserved or a case of profiling is anyone's guess.

Michigander
June 15, 2004, 08:29 PM
Hmmm.

The all knowing, all seeing, all powerful FBI didn't know if he was at work? Twice even?

Hmmm?

No4Mk1*
June 15, 2004, 11:58 PM
How can I get FBI surveilance? The house alarm and monitoring is expensive and I could save a lot of money if the FBI would watch my house for me. I recently bought a LOT of Yugo 8mm, but even the UPS clerks didn't seem to care.
Seriously I hope they are not wasting time and money investigating legal gun and ammo purchases when they sould be worried about SAM's and anti-tank weapons being smuggled in by terorists.

bountyhunter
June 16, 2004, 01:35 PM
I recently bought a LOT of Yugo 8mm, but even the UPS clerks didn't seem to care. I've got a great Fed Ex delivery man who works my area. He's a little Viet namese guy who weighs about 120 pounds but he can haul an 80 pound box on his shoulder like it was weightless.

When he delivers other stuff he always says to me:

No bullets today?

bountyhunter
June 16, 2004, 01:40 PM
Michael Badnarik for President!

The Libertarian Party is committed to America's heritage of freedom:
Maybe.... but the "third party" system is committed to getting the incumbent re-elected. The closest a third party candidate ever got to winning was Teddy Roosevelt in his "Bull Moose" party. And all he did was succeed in splitting the vote and getting the incumbent another four years.

The point is really not a complicated one: people are really not that bright. Most of them are clueless even on election day about the issues. They simply ask themselves:

"Am I doing better now compared to four years ago?"

A yes reply means they vote for whoever is in office. A no reply means they vote for "somebody else". If you split the "somebody else" between two candidates, simple math tells you the incumbent wins EVERY time. It still amazes me how few people grasp this concept.

TarpleyG
June 16, 2004, 02:44 PM
This could explain the hold up on my 1000 round lot of .223 from Sportsman's Guide 'til 7/22...http://www.glocktalk.com/images/smilies/tinfoil.gif

Lobotomy Boy
June 17, 2004, 02:38 AM
Between what looks like impeachable conduct on the part of Cheney regarding the Haliburton contracts, the 9/11 Commission's findings that their was no connection between Iraq and Al Quaeda, the possible indictment of Scooter Libby for committing treason by revealing the identity of CIA operative Valerie Plame, and the criminal incompetence with which Rumsfeld conducted the war in Iraq, I'd say Bush has as much chance of being president come this time next year as Al Gore. I don't think a few hundred thousand votes for the Libertarian candidate are going to make a hill of beans worth of difference in that outcome.

I know it's a long shot, but given the insanity of the current situation, a third party has a better chance than any time since Theodore Roosevelt. I'm from Minnesota and I can tell you from experience that it is a mistake to count out a third party candidate, especially when the two traditional parties are offering nothing but Dreadful and Dreadfuller.

I'm going to vote for Badnarik.

ScottS
June 17, 2004, 09:05 AM
I'm going to vote for Badnarik.No, you're not. You're going to vote for Kerry. Net result is the same. Just be sure you like who you get.


Scott

(Wondering how we got here from "Gov't surveillance of mail order ammo?")

Lobotomy Boy
June 17, 2004, 09:16 AM
Well I sure am not voting for Bush. Anyone who surrounds himself with such a motley collection of halfwits, criminals, and traitors cannot be allowed to remain in power. After all that has happened, I couldn't vote for the man in good conscience. So I guess my options are Badnarik, Kerry, Nader, or not voting.

Not only do I believe Kerry will win, if given a choice between Kerry and Bush, I'd have to go with Kerry. While I despise his stand on guns, at least he was man enough to serve his country in Vietnam. But since there is a party that accurately reflects my personal beliefs, I think the proper thing for me to do is vote Libertarian.

The Real Hawkeye
June 17, 2004, 10:28 AM
Well I sure am not voting for Bush. Anyone who surrounds himself with such a motley collection of halfwits, criminals, and traitors cannot be allowed to remain in power. After all that has happened, I couldn't vote for the man in good conscience. So I guess my options are Badnarik, Kerry, Nader, or not voting.

Not only do I believe Kerry will win, if given a choice between Kerry and Bush, I'd have to go with Kerry. While I despise his stand on guns, at least he was man enough to serve his country in Vietnam. But since there is a party that accurately reflects my personal beliefs, I think the proper thing for me to do is vote Libertarian.I'm with you, LB.

Michigander
June 17, 2004, 07:12 PM
I'm sure some day they will make it illegal to vote for any party other than either branch of the incumbent party, let alone campaign for a third (actually, second) party or against either branch of the incumbent party.

The other parties will still be on the ballot to keep up appearrences, but with the FBI agent in the booth with you, you will vote for one of the two branches of the incumbent party.

Then we will be lamenting the days when we could campaign against candidates in the months prior to the election and we actually could have voted for a third (second) party candidate!

:confused:

If you enjoyed reading about "Gov't surveillance of mail order ammo?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!