[ScottsGT]

I live in a populated rural country club type neighborhood that is not in the country, but a lot of surrounding small wooded areas. This week we have been seeing some animals running around that we have never seen. At first I thought it was a fox by the way my wife described it, but Sat. afternoon, it ran out of a thicket and across the street and was way too tall to be a fox. then again this afternoon it came after my dog, or the turkey decoy I set up in the backyard. Anyways, it was pissed, snarling and snorting. Kids were in the house when all the excitement started. I did take a shot at it with my scoped 10/22, but the damned scope was maxed out on 9 and all I saw was a furry blob at 50 ft. Especially after all the adrenelin of running for the rifle. But I did get a good look. Definately a coyote. Saw it again this evening with the surefire along the woods edge.
Now before you start flaming me for shootin' in the 'hood, my backyard is a hill and I was on my deck shooting towards the ground. That's why there was no follow up shot, he ran up the hill, I didn't want to take any chances of hitting a golfer on the 8th hole.
Time for a trap? Or hang a chicken leg from a tree brance and take another shot at him? And is a .22LR enough to down a Coyote?

[Art Eatman]

Unless you're skilled at dealing with leghold traps, I wouln't try one of those; and, too much chance of grabbing a neighbor's dog. Odds are, a coyote won't enter the usual HavAHart.

From your description of the behavior, I'd have some concern for rabies. I think I'd warn the neighbors of the possibility, anyway.

A .22 would kill, but not right away unless it's a head shot. Even a heart shot won't do a quick "stop" of a coyote, although it would likely prove fatal.

I'd try high-speed hollow-points, or QuikShok.

A "Do it now!" deal is to crank that scope down to its low-power setting. :) I've had the same thing happen to me on a pretty good buck.

Art

[dakotasin]

yeah, a 22's enough... may not do it in one shot, but to keep the noise down, it is what i would use... bait him in close, and put 3 into him as fast as you can, as close as you can...

[ScottsGT]

Thought about it some more last night. Maybe a open can of sardenes (sp?) stragically placed would be good bait. I think I have more than one though. The one I saw bolting across the street looked taller than the one I missed at yesterday. As they say, if you've got one, you've got many. Oh, and I remember the three s's.
Shoot
Shovel
Shutup
Taxidermest?

[Art Eatman]

Dunno 'bout SC game laws, but odds are that the state doesn't care other than the issue of commercial sale of furs.

A tanned hide makes an attractive cover over the back of a couch, or as a wall-hanger. Or, if you can get enough of them, a vest.

Yeah, sardines oughta work, but the remaining aroma of the oil in the can after you eat the sardines works just as well. Why waste a perfectly good sardine?

:), Art

[sumpnz]

If you think it's rabid, call Animal Control. In the mean time, keep the .22, or better yet a shotgun or heavy caliber (.357mag or bigger) handgun handy. If Animal Control can get rid of the problem, great. If not, you're prepared. Also, make sure you or your wife supervize the kids while they play outside with the gun of choice close at hand. I would not bait the coyotes as that may be just asking for continuing problems, and possibly complaints from neighbors.

[sumpnz]

ScottsGT, now that I've thought on this a bit more, you said in your original post I live in a populated rural country club type neighborhood This means you probably have about 1/3 acre lot or smaller. I live in an area where it's minumum 1.0 acre lots. If I knew a neighbor of mine was baiting coyotes into his yard in order to shoot them (even with "only" a .22lr) I'd be mighty upset and would probably call the sherriff. Now, if it was legit defense of self or family, no problem. If it was minimum 10 acre ranchettes, no problem. But, deliberatly baiting and shooting is bad ju-ju in a neighborhood.

You know how safe you are, but I (or your neighbors) don't. Just imagine how mad you'd be if a bullet hit (whether by negligence or accidental ricochet) your house/car/kids/etc. And then there's the whole issue of intentionally drawing (possibly rabid) predators into an area filled with kids. What if one of those coyotes mauls a neighbor's kid, or eats their dog/cat on the way in or out of your yard?

Keep your kids and yourself safe, but don't bait the coyotes.

[Kingcreek]

shotgun might be a better choice

[ScottsGT]

Spoke with the wildlife dept today. He said if I have a good backstop, which I do, to go ahead a bait for them and aim carefully and shoot them. Just remove the bait while I'm not there to watch it. Just not to have kids out and around and let the neighbors know. I have about a half acre behind the house that is wooded and it is an incline hill. I've already let the country club know about the coyotes, and their going to post it in the proshop to be careful if any balls are lost in the woods in my area. There are a lot of junior golfers out there during the day. He also recommended I stick with the .22 since most people that hear it would think we were shooting off fireworks. We are one of the last few legal states that can do that too :D
BTW, I'm also up on a deck shooting down into the hill area and would never even try a follow up shot if he ran up the hill. That's why he got away the other evening.

BTW, the wildlife biologist also suggested the cage trap won't work unless it was big enough to tie a live chicken to in one end. then I would lose the chicken once he got in the cage.
As far as SC laws go, you have to notify all neighbors within 100 yards in a residential area outside the city limits before discharging any firearms unless self defense.

[JShirley]

Spoke with the wildlife dept today.

Good. That's the way to go. I'd use QuickShoks, if you can get 'em.

John

[smokemaker]

I've dispatched a number of coyotes with Remington yellowjacket .22's. They work fine out to about 60 yards.

[Sportcat]

Can you get closer in your "tactical samurai" and get a closer shot?:D

I didn't know coyotes were an issue in Columbia.

[ScottsGT]

There everywhere according to the Wildlife biologist I spoke with on the phone. In every county in the state. Last year 30,000, yes I said 30,000 were reported shot in the state. So we do have an infestation on them. I read this figure in the Buckshot magazine, which I believe the article was written by someone from DNR. Coworker's neighbor had one clawing at the door of their car, a few months back, trying to get in with them.

Maybe I could drive the Sammy into the woods and wait on them? :D

[Art Eatman]

A parked vehicle isn't the worst "stand" in the world...

:), Art

[sumpnz]

A parked vehicle isn't the worst "stand" in the world... Unless you live in Arizona where hunting from a vehicle is quite illegal. So long as you get out of your car, and step off the road before taking the shot you're fine, but otherwise be prepared for G&F to ticket you, and possibly take your rifle.

[Sunray]

Yep, Wile E. is everywhere. I'd refrain from trying bait too. You never know what'll show up. Skunks, coons, stray cats and dogs all eat the same stuff Wile E. will and he'll tell all his buddies where there's a free meal. Listen to sumpnz.
YellowJackets, if they shoot well enough out of your rifle(not every .22 shoots 'em accurately), will, um, blow him out from under his hat.

[Al Thompson]

Sump, we can shoot from vehicles and on public roads. :)

Scott, holler if you need a hand. :D

[Stand_Watie]

A parked vehicle isn't the worst "stand" in the world...

Not just a parked vehicle Art. I was talking to my neighbor today, and he opined that a tractor pulling a mower is the best stand in the world. Apparently the coyotes get used to catching the rats/mice that go running when you're mowing and come to view the tractor as a food source.

[444]

I would just leave it alone.
I see coyotes in my yard or from my yard all the time.
I don't understand why seeing one means that you have to kill it.
I have nothing against killing coyotes and I hunt them, but I don't just kill every one I see on sight.

[Art Eatman]

444, it depends on numbers and behavior. If they're relatively few, and not bothering the pets or the chickens, there's no real point in worrying about them.

If you're in the sheep and goat business, there's no such thing as too few coyotes.

Art

[444]

Right, as I said, I have nothing against shooting them. But just to see one from the house and immediately go on a quest to shoot it doesn't add up to me. Coyotes get pretty brave in urban areas. I have seen them eating out of garbage cans in the parking lot of Scotty's Castle with hundreds of people and vehicle walking by. They have a sign up not to feed them Cheetos.

[sumpnz]

I'm with 444 on this one. If a 'yote is a problem, kill it. If you're out hunthing them, kill 'em. But otherwise, live and let live.

And, Sunray spelled out some of the potential problems with baiting other than what I already mentioned.

[ScottsGT]

444,
Have you got kids? The smallest being a beautiful 5year old little girl? And an 8 year old that was surrounded in the woods one evening? (His story, not mine) Are all four of your kids afraid to go out in their own yard? Did you have one coming at you snarling and growling trying to get at either you or your dog, and maybe the turkey decoy I set up?:rolleyes:
Anyhow, I do appreciate your views, and if my family could feel safe around them, I would leave them. Just as if I lived in a crack dealer ridden neighborhood, I would be on the phone constantly until the law did something about it. I called about this situation, and the wildlife biologist told me to shoot them, and they could do nothing about it.
BTW, Tuesday evening we saw three sets of eyes glowing at us on the edge of the tree line :what: Now the wife is freaked more than ever!
The way I see it, I was there first, I pay the mortgage, I mow the grass, I maintain the house and property and they are not welcomed!

FWIW, there was a bear spotted in a rural area of Charleston yesterday, Wildlife Dept. IS doing something about that! They are trying to trap it and relocate this one.

[BeLikeTrey]

If there is more than one, somebody is feeding them or leaving trash in improper containers. Looks like the secret is out on this with the coyotes. Check around your immediate vicinity and see who is throwing food out improperly.

Coyotes are nuisance animals here, no season that I'm aware of... You may want to get your hunting license however ;)

Here in Columbia the coyotes I've run across, are quite brazen and most don't seem to fear humans much. I have been within 20 ft of one that ran in on us calling turkeys. Darned thing stood right there and stared at us for a good 30 seconds before we raised our guns to shoot it. I think we were both so surprised at how close he came and how long he stood there, that we didn't think to shoot, at first. This was a couple of miles from Williams-Brice Stadium on the Congaree. So yes they are in Columbia.

You may want to put any bait in something that makes noise to alert you. something on a string attached to chimes, or bait in a perforated- corrugated pipe, tied down with stuff to rattle inside etc, you get the idea. Up fairly close, a well placed .22 CCI stinger or Velocitor should set him at room temperature in fairly short order. I would prefer bigger but residential considerations are your concern naturally. Good luck! I think Al and I both would love to help ;)

[ScottsGT]

Sounds like a Columbia group shoot in the Woodlands subdivision in the NE side of town! Well, I better hold off on the group shoot, want to keep it low profile. Coworker suggested I call News 19, "they'll get it straightned out" Yea, right :rolleyes: The same group that labled the 19 year old coming out of the Congaree range a terrorist, right before he was to be shipped out to Iraq to fight terrorists! I'd have every tree huggin' grape nuts eatin' PETA member within a hundred miles raisin' a big stink about this "gun nut killing gods creatures" Oh, wait, they don't believe in God!

[BeLikeTrey]

"They just haven't heard it".... (crunch crunch crunch) I know you've seen that commercial...

Happy hunting, and hopefully they won't hear that 10/22 while they are crunching on their grapenuts. Family first, "gods creatures" a distant second.

Don't forget to check on neighbors and the garbage-food issue. Let us know about this as it develops. Good Luck!

[Swamprabbit]

Fortunately, for me, I live out where I don't have any neighbors very close. I have coyotes coming up around my house almost every night (judging by all the barking and yelping going on). I do have a couple of dogs and there seems to be a truce between them and the coyotes. The coyotes don't actually come into the yard and the dogs, in turn, don't bother barking at the coyotes out in the fields and woods around the house. The only issue I have with them is that they do keep some of us awake at night with all their racket. I do enjoy staying outside late at night and just listening to them.

My suggestion is that if the coyote is acting aggressively, I would notify Animal Control since it is in an urban area. Otherwise, if you feel you do need to take matters into your own hands, I would recommend a shotgun. If the coyote is too far out for the scattergun, it is probably in a neighbor's yard anyway.

If it is coming around the neighborhood then that means that there is food available for it. You may want to try to find out where it is eating and eliminate that source.

[ScottsGT]

As far as the food source, I walked around the area yesterday after work and got a good whiff of something that smelled like rotting dead animal. And I noticed "Sparkey", the neighbors small dog has not been barking lately. We use to have a lot of rabbits running around the yard too. Have not seen any lately. So I'm thinking the food source was fresh live meat they were after. Did not see any last night, but it was raining.

[1911Tuner]

I can sympathize...Coyotes' numbers are on the rise, and since
its habitat is shrinking, they're gonna show up in populated areas
sooner or later. We've got'em here too....but they're shy and keep
their distance.

Coyotes, like Racoons and Foxes, are nocturnal. If you see either one prowling around during daylight hours, there's a good chance that it's rabid, especially if it's freeroaming in close proximity to people and doesn't
seem to be afraid of a barking dog...which they generally try to avoid.

If it's rabid, and close to the final stages of the disease...the "Furious Stage" bait won't work because swallowing is painful in that stage, and drives the animal into fits. From the time that a rabid animal begins to show signs of the disease, one of which is a reversal of its nature...total
lack of fear of humans being the most notable...until it "Goes Mad"
is short...about 72 hours. If you're gonna bait him up for a head shot,
now is the time.

The upside is that shortly after the beginning of the furious stage, the animal starts running in an attempt to get away from the sickness,
so it may not be in the area for long. The downside is that, as it tries to
escape, it travels for long distances, increasing the chances that it will infect other animals or even people along the way. Death usually follows within 72 hours of the onset of this stage. This 72 hour period is when
we see the telltale signs of hydrophobia. Staggering like a drunk...Blindly
attacking anything in its path...Foaming at the mouth, etc. The foaming
happens because the animal can't swallow its saliva, and the danger of infection is high during this stage because the virus is transmitted through
the saliva...and there's a lot of it on the animal's muzzle.

Until the onset of this stage, the animal may be perfectly calm, or even
friendly...too friendly. It may even approach you and lick your hand before
it attacks.


If you kill it, don't touch it. All it takes is a scratch on your skin. Don't let your dog near it, even if it's been vaccinated. Pour ammonia over the carcass and cover it up with lime and call animal control. If you don't have any lime, a heavy blanket will do. Hold your breath while you do this. If you can, post somebody near it to ward off dogs and curious onlookers.

Take care, and good luck.

Tuner

[ScottsGT]

Great tips Tuner. Not sure if this one was trying to protect young, or rabid, but I'll keep everyone clear.

[1911Tuner]

Mighty welcome Scott.

Now...You think YOU'VE got problems...We've got a Black Bear
sniffin' around the area. 5 people have spotted him in the last week,
and from the descriptions, I'm estimating his weight at 300+ pounds.
I've tracked him into his bedding area, and he's stickin' pretty close
to that, but he's been seen amblin' across a few yards, and has played hell with some garbage cans since he's staked out the neighborhood. Now
I know why the dogs have been goin' ballistic through the night...
I found fresh tracks less than a hundred yards from my property
just yesterday.

I suppose he'll wander back up to Pilot Mountain when he gets the call to
go make little bears...They usually do.:D

Later on!

Tuner

[444]

ScottsGT: That is very touching, and I understand that you don't want your children molested by coyotes however I think you are missing something. You saw a coyote, paniced, shot at it, notified the neighbors, posted on the internet, explored all kinds of dramatic options to kill it but you know what ? if there is one there are thousands of them. There was probably at least one other one watching this whole thing unfold. You are not going to make the slightest difference by shooting one coyote. Man has been trying to wipe out the coyote for a century: traps, poison, shooting, running them with dogs, running them with heilocopters, you name it and it has been done. Guess what ? Not only didn't they succeed but coyotes now are living comfortably in places no one ever dreamed and there are more of them than ever. You might as well be stepping on ants.

"Coyotes, like Racoons and Foxes, are nocturnal. If you see either one prowling around during daylight hours, there's a good chance that it's rabid, especially if it's freeroaming in close proximity to people and doesn't
seem to be afraid of a barking dog...which they generally try to avoid."

I totally disagree with this. Coyotes are one of the smartest animals out there. They are certainly the most adaptable. I don't think coyotes have any hard and fast rules like not going out in the daylight, not going around dogs, or staying away from people. Coyotes know what they can get away with and pretty much do whatever they want to. I see coyotes all the time during the day. I see coyotes all the time in close proximity to people. I see coyotes killing and eating dogs. 90% of the coyote hunting I have done was during the day. We call them and they come, they don't care what time of day it is. I see several coyotes a week, and I am not even looking for them. Every single one of them I see is during the day.

[1911Tuner]

certainly the most adaptable. I don't think coyotes have any hard and fast rules like not going out in the daylight, not going around dogs, or staying away from people.
____________________

Adaptable for sure....and your assessment may be spot on in Nevada,
but their behavior pattern here in the Southeastern U.S is much different.
I've seen them in close proximity only at night, and only briefly.

I've seen them during the day, but not around populated areas. I know
that they're here...but we catch a glimpse only rarely during daylight hours.
They own the nights, however...and whenever somebody's male dog goes missing, we know that somewhere, a female Coyote in season has invited him to dinner.

Sometimes, wildlife knowledge depends on what longitude and latitude
you're standin' in...For South Carolina Coyotes...I stand by what I said.

Cheers all!

Tuner

[Stand_Watie]

Scott I think that the coyotes pose a greater danger to your child than the bear. I keep a couple of dogs, and anytime I'm choosing a dog, part of the consideration is it has to be large enough to not be an easy mouthful for a coyote. I feel a lot better about my child playing in the yard, because I know if Wile E. shows up there'll be a hellacious tangle.

I'd be much more worried about the suburban coyotes that you apparently have than the rural coyotes where I live.



AZrick posted this earlier.

http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/awm/docs/coyoteattacks.pdf

COYOTE ATTACKS: AN INCREASING SUBURBAN PROBLEM*


Robert M. Timm, Hopland Research & Extension Center, University of California, Hopland, California
Rex O. Baker, California State Polytechnic University-Pomona (retired), Corona, California
Joe R. Bennett, USDA APHIS Wildlife Services, Taft, California
Craig C. Coolahan, USDA APHIS Wildlife Services, Sacramento, California


Introduction Coyote (Canis latrans) attacks on humans, once thought to be rare, have increased in frequency over the past decade. In expanding suburban areas such as those found in several counties in Southern California, residential developments are often near steep, brushy wildland areas. Coyotes inhabiting such wildlands are drawn into suburban landscaped environments that can support an abundance of rodents and rabbits, and where they can utilize water sources, pet food, household refuse, and even house cats and small dogs as prey.
Our observations indicate that in the absence of harassment by residents, coyotes can lose their fear of people and come to associate humans with this safe, resource-rich environment. This problem is exacerbated by people who intentionally feed coyotes. In such situations, some coyotes have begun to act aggressively toward humans, chasing joggers and bicyclists, confronting people walking their dogs, and stalking small children...

[BeLikeTrey]

444 are you in a more rural area?
seeing Wil E. in the day is no biggie but in more urban areas they do go nocturnal to avoid "predators" (man)
I agree though that they are not exclusively nocturnal, as I was turkey hunting in the day time and had that brazen yote come in on me.

The difference is that this one is not afraid to make his presence known in business hours and has been living off of humans' scraps and pets it looks like. Small children (I know this sounds like "the dingo ate your baby") are just as susceptible as little Sparky next door. He has growled at them rather than avoid them. I think, at least, it is a little agressive for an animal considered more covert than overt. This can only escalate from this point as these animals move in and bring their friends. ME? All I am saying (and Tuner I think) is I would prefer to cut this behavior short and place a healthy fear of man and populated areas back into the pack that this miscreant belongs to. Culling the herd a bit may help to accomplish this.

[444]

Yes, I live in a fairly rural area: not out in the middle of no where, but certainly not inner city or even the suburbs.
I certainly am not familiar with Eastern coyotes and maybe their habits are different than Western coyotes. One thing that might account for this (assuming it is true) is that in the East coyotes have a much easier life. Water isn't scarce and food is abundant. Their Western desert counterparts have to work at survival. I am sure this brings them into more urban areas because of the easy food and water. Drinking water from someone's birdbath or lawn sprinkler is easier than finding water in the desert and eating garbage or house cats is easier than chasing down prey in the wild. But the same applies to Eastern coyotes I am sure. They learned where the easy pickings are and adapt accordingly.
I am not so sure that coyotes consider man to be a predator in urban areas. Don't get me wrong, they will certainly run from man anywhere but coyotes seem to learn what they can get away with. For example when coyote calling it is said that if you call in a coyote with a given call (dying rabbit for example) and it scents you, or you miss, it will never come to that call again. It associates that call with danger. In urban areas, man isn't much of a threat to coyotes. They run around pretty much unmolested. Because they are unmolested, they become more brazen. I mentioned previously about Scotty's Castle. For those of you who don't know what that is, it is a house built in Death Valley that is a tourist attraction. My parents were visiting me and I took them there. My mother made the comment that she had never seen a coyote. I told her that I bet we will see some in Death Valley since it is in a kalifornia park where I am sure they do not allow varmint hunting. Although I was surprised at what we ended up seeing. Coyotes were freely roaming around the parking lot eating from the garbage cans and stuff people dropped. These particular coyotes don't view humans as a threat since humans have never been a threat to them. I am sure they wouldn't come right up and eat out of your hand, but the fact that you are standing 10 yards away doesn't seem to bother them in the least. They adapt to their conditions. That is the reason they are so plentiful.
I also wonder, 1911, if you see more of them at night because of their eyes reflecting light alerting you to their presence ? They are pretty sneaky and might be there and you just don't know it. I am sure that many people who arn't used to seeing coyotes running around see them and assume they are a loose dog.
I am not trying to be argumentitve here and I am not trying to be a jerk. But I would wager that coyotes have been around ScottsGT's house for a long time. And I would wager that there are plenty of them. It just so happens that he saw one and now realizes there might be a problem. I personally don't see this as a situation that demands any kind of real aggressive action although danger to children certainly exists. He certainly needs to keep an eye on his children and take whatever action is nessessary to protect them. But there is no reason to fly off the handle about seeing one coyote.

[ScottsGT]

444,
I think your on to something about western vs. eastern coyotes. There are no natural enemies for them here other than man. Out west there are the big cats, wolves, etc. Our first sighting was about 3 or 4 weeks back. The wife saw it and thought it was a realy big cat. I guess it was the bushy tail. At first I thought she was describing a fox, but when I saw those long legs, I knew what it was. Again, my biggest fear was the rabies issue, but according to the biologist, this time of the year they are having to feed the young, and will come out in search of it anywhere or anytime.

[sumpnz]

Before my wife and I got dogs and fenced in about 1/3 of our acre we saw coyotes running through the yard all the time. In broad daylight. We still see them going through the neighbor's yards on occassion.

My neighbor was walking her elderly collie just the other day at around 10AM and was nearly attacked by 3 or 4 coyotes (they were trying to box her in when finally something spooked them and they took off). They were probably after her dog, not her, but still disconcerting.

BTW, I do have a child myself. She's only 2.5 months old right now, but I worry about coyotes whenever my wife goes for a walk with her. I also worry about them attacking my wife when she goes for a run. This is at least part of the reason why even she is wanting a pistol for protection.

I know I'm repeating myself here, but I really think the best thing is to calm down (including your wife and kids) and not worry about it, but be prepared. Keep that .22 handy, or better yet get a .410 or 20-28 gauge shotgun and keep it handy. If you see a coyote acting aggresivly, shoot the mofo. Best yet, fence off your yard. Be aware that a 5' fence will barely slow a determined coyote down, but it will make your kids and pets a less attractive food source because of the extra work involved.

[444]

I agree, be aware, be prepared but don't panic.
Even if it is illegal, I have a hard time believing you would get in any serious trouble if you had to shoot a coyote in your yard to protect your children. Personally, I would keep a rifle handy with ammo handy just in case something happens and I would not choose the rifle based on it's report.

[ScottsGT]

I guess the one reason I'm sticking to the 10/22 is that my other choice would be the AR-15. Would make great press, "Man saves childrens lives with ASSAULT rifle", but then again, the cops might view me as some kind of nutcase if questions are asked and I whip out the AR to show them the firearm used.

[sumpnz]

the cops might view me as some kind of nutcase if questions are asked and I whip out the AR to show them the firearm used. Hence the recommendation for a shotgun. A .410 probably won't be any louder than the AR, and possibly not even as loud. At any range you're likely to be shooting a coyote at, it will also be just as effective. As Swamprabbit said "If the coyote is too far out for the scattergun, it is probably in a neighbor's yard anyway." The other advantage is that if you miss and happen to hit the only rock in the entire hill that would be your backstop, even that .22 could bounce quite a ways, whereas the shot from the scattergun probably won't go far at all.

[1911Tuner]

Howdy 444,

No offense taken. Just a point of geography. Sometimes the wildlife habits are determined by the habitat. Plenty of fresh water streams andponds hearabouts, and rabbits out the wazoo. No reason for'em to
scavenge in the Burbs.

The ones we see at night around here are usually caught in the headlights when they're shreddin' a roadkill, and they split pretty quick. The ones that
we do happen to see in the daylight don't stick around for long when the realize they've been spotted. Heavy drought and/or disease in the small critter population might change all that.

As for overreacting on the siting of one Coyote... I'd get a mite nervytoo, if I saw one in my yard in close proximity to a small child. You said it yourself.
They're pack hunters. There's never just one...

The bear doesn't bother us...We're used to'em. He is makin a mess of the garbage cans and diggin' for grubs at the bases of trees though...:D

[Art Eatman]

FWIW: I ran across a news article a few days ago of a coyote attack, somewhere around a smaller city/town in California. Wasn't specific about the scene, but it wasn't rural.

Anyhow, a coyote grabbed a four-year-old child by the hand. Parent or neighbor heard the screams and the adult's coming to the scene scared the coyote away.

Art

[PATH]

I live in the suburbs of New York and they are here. Most of the time you never see them. They live in large woodland park areas. They make forays into neighborhoods. One neighborhood near me had an attack two years ago. A lady let her dog out in a fenced yard. Coyote somehow got in and killed little fluffy!

I have never seen one during the day. I don't trust them. They are too smart for their own good. If an animal realizes your child is easy prey it won't be long till the yote takes a chance. As they imprint on our garbage and pets as an easy source of food it will be only a matter of time before they take the next step.

I say end him!

[444]

A guy I work with was dating a girl that lived in a very upscale southern kalifornia beach community. She had some kind of foo foo dog that she treated like a child.
They hear a commontion outside and look out. A coyote was jumping over and eight foot block wall with the dog in it's mouth.
He almost bit his tounge in half to keep himself from laughing.

[Stand_Watie]

Here is some interesting (I thought) food for thought. Coyotes are newcomers to South Carolina. I think the exploding deer population and the dramatic (until very recently) decrease in large predator population probably accounts largely for coyotes moving eastward.

I think the natural and healthy state of large predators is for them to co-exist with man by being naturally shy and fearful of man. I think being overly tolerant of large predators is as bad for their gene pool as is indiscriminately killing them all, as we saw in the US a century ago.

There is some really cool info here

http://www.forestry.auburn.edu/ditchkoff/Course%20Pages/6290/lecimag-carn1.htm

Some examples of the info here (I kind of wish I'd gotten my degree in forestry now)

Coyote range: presettlement times
http://www.forestry.auburn.edu/ditchkoff/images/Lecture%20Images/Carnivores/coyote%20range1.gif

Coyote range: around 1900
http://www.forestry.auburn.edu/ditchkoff/images/Lecture%20Images/Carnivores/coyote_range2.gif

Eastward expansion of coyotes during the 1900s
http://www.forestry.auburn.edu/ditchkoff/images/Lecture%20Images/Carnivores/coyote_range3.gif


Competitive exclusion of carnivores in North America
http://www.forestry.auburn.edu/ditchkoff/images/Lecture%20Images/Carnivores/competitive_exclusion.gif

[sumpnz]

So it looks like the Great Plains was the real historical range of the coyotes, but when White Man arrived and really started to mess with both prey and predator populations (overhunting of elk, attempts to wipe out wolves, and to a lesser extent cougars) it gave an opportunity for the ever opportunistic coyote to spread.

Hmmm, interesting.

[Stand_Watie]

so it looks like the Great Plains was the real historical range of the coyotes, but when White Man arrived and really started to mess with both prey and predator populations (overhunting of elk, attempts to wipe out wolves, and to a lesser extent cougars) it gave an opportunity for the ever opportunistic coyote to spread.

That was my take on it. Don't get me wrong, the American Indians weren't shy about indiscriminate killing of wildlife, but their lifestyle was such that their population numbers stayed low enough that they didn't really effect it in the way that the europeanization of America did.

Amber waves of grain across America have meant an explosion of deer and small game animals - followed by an explosion of the one predator that is not particularly fearful of man. Truly large predators were killed because they were an obvious threat to domesticated game, which lead to a further exploitation by the coyotes.

p.s. Ben Franklin beat me to the punch when he said that the American national bird should be the turkey (another beautiful game animal that I love to see reestablishing itself in northeastern America), but mr. Wile e. is the predator that I think best epitomizes the resourcefulness of the American spirit.

[BeLikeTrey]

After all that discussion here... Did you get him yet? Any new sightings? Find Sparky, or evidence?

[ScottsGT]

Two sightings yesterday. One early in the evening about 7PM as I was opening my car door in the driveway. About 60 ft back in the back yard under some red tip shrubs I saw a small outline of a head watching me. He disappeared when he noticed that I stopped what I was doing to look at him. Then last night about 11:00 I spotted him again using the surefire. The wife actually got to see him this time, not just the glowing eyes. But it was only one this time.
I modified the food chain chart a little.

[sumpnz]

p.s. Ben Franklin beat me to the punch when he said that the American national bird should be the turkey (another beautiful game animal that I love to see reestablishing itself in northeastern America), but mr. Wile e. is the predator that I think best epitomizes the resourcefulness of the American spirit. Yes, he thought the bald eagle was little more than one step above the vulture. I have to say I agree with him on that. If they were going to pick a raptor for our national bird, the peregrine falcon, red tailed hawk, or great horned owl would have been much better choices.

I agree that Wile e. would have been a good choice for a national symbol from the standpoint of resourcefulness and adaptability. However, dogs in general carry a lot of baggage in the sence that in many cultures to be called a dog is the lowest form of insult possible. So, in that light I think it was wise to avoid such a characterization for out country.

[BeLikeTrey]

I like the new food chain chart! I take it you have made your decision and just await a good battle plan and targets of opportunity to appear :)

Despite the PETA activists posting here (this is a good natured wisecrack by the way), I think a little culling is in order.

If you don't have nice doggies roaming free in the neighborhood and only the 'yote, try some (bracing for another PETA flame... hey where's our boy with the flame-suit-up pick?) chicken-a-la-prestone.

[ScottsGT]

The wife called today in a panic! She was brushing the dog on the back porch and the damned coyote walked up to within 15 feet of them. Now she was up on the deck in a safe location, unless he learns where the stairs are. She had the balls to call me and ask how to unlock the safe, load the 10/22 and learn to shoot it, over the phone! HEHEHE...... I told her she was "better off facing a wild coyote than trying to learn to load, aim and shoot a rifle under that kind of pressure over the phone! And next time I offer to take your sorry butt shootin' you better damn well go with me!" Oh man, I'm loving it! I've almost got her talked into a starlite scope for the AR! I don't know if I want to shoot this coyote until I get a new toy out of it!
The she asked where the kids Red Rider BB guns were. That's when I dropped the phone laughing my big old butt off! Had to explain that she really didn't want to piss off the coyote, just go inside for now.
Then she came back out when she saw the other neighbors dog ( that wanders everywhere and was about 1/2 mile from home) in the side yard. She brought her in, and took the video camera out and got some video of the coyote. Damn, he's UGLY! Half the fur is off his body. Front half is real short, back side is longer. Shame I couldn't get a digital shot. Maybe I can get a photo off the TV and post?

[1911Tuner]

That one's gettin' a bit too bold, brother...and maybe sick. Time
to get serious about droppin' him. Hopefully, the ones watchin' will see it
go down. They're pretty sharp, and hopefully they'll get the message.

Luck!

Tuner

[ScottsGT]

Hate to sound goofy here, but looking closer at the video, I think this might not be a coyote, but a gray fox. Every quick glance I've seen, I made out the long legs and a bushy tail and assumed it was a coyote. Guess I need to surf the net for coyote photos :rolleyes: It was kind of moving quick. Guess I also need to call the Wildlife Dept. back.

[sumpnz]

If you don't have nice doggies roaming free in the neighborhood and only the 'yote, try some (bracing for another PETA flame... hey where's our boy with the flame-suit-up pick?) chicken-a-la-prestone. Sorry, but that's just absurd. I'm hardly a PETA member (unless we're talking about People for the Edible Treatment of Animals) but there is bound to be other animals that would be attracted to that besides the coyotes. Except in limited circumstances I'm very much against poisonings as it is too indiscriminate. He lives in a subdivision, remember. Between cats and dogs, not to mention non-coyote wildlife that we don't want to harm there's way to much potential for collateral damage.

ScottsGT, I know you want that Starlight scope, but seriously, buy a shotgun instead. Not only will it be more effective than the 10/22 in dropping the coyote right away, but you've also gotten yourself a great home defence weapon, and possibly a bird hunting weapon. I would go no bigger than 20 gauge for your purposes though, and even that might be pushing the noise limits. From the sound of the behavior this one needs to go.

[ScottsGT]

Naa, got enough shotguns. Norinco double barrel with hammers, Model 12, LeFever .410. Me needs a nightscope! Come on now, just kidding about the scope. Couldn't justify the price. But a nice ACOG! That one I'd put on the CC in a second!
The crack of a .22 is less than the blast of a shotgun. But if I have to blast away, the Norinco is there with the .22!

[sumpnz]

Naa, got enough shotguns. Had you mentioned them before I would not have. From your other posts I was under the impression you had the AR, 10/22 and not much else.

Anywhoo, good luck with the problem wildlife.

[BeLikeTrey]

Well I did make a qualifying statement... "If you don't have nice doggies roaming free in the neighborhood "

LOL on the People for the Edible Treatment of Animals!


Scott, Got to www.gunsnstuff.net it's Federal Arms Catalogue website. MK330 NV scope 1st gen w 450 mw IR illuminator total dark capability up to 150 yds 3x magnification 1moa advertised. 479$
Would be good on a .17 hmr or .22 I would think ;)

[Art Eatman]

For those in doubt, here's Ol' Wiley.

[PATH]

Yup! It sure looks like him. Where is the Road Runner?;) :D

[macavada]

If you really want to bring it in, have you thought of a predator call? Has anybody suggested that yet? Maybe an audio tape of a rabbit in distress. They supposedly work like a charm. If he's close by, he'll come around quick.

Marco

[twoblink]

Wiley is just fine by himself, the problem is Wiley is never just by himself..

If you want to hear cussin', ask my TX friends who own cattle...

They lose a few calves every year.. And trust me, just 1 coyote ain't big enough to bring down a calf...

And I'd hunt Wiley down "For the Children."

[Byron Quick]

I've seen coyotes in eastern central Georgia in the daytime. I shot and missed one that walked into an open area about 100 yards in front of my deer stand. About five minutes later, another walked out about 120 yards from me on a parallel track to the first one.

So rural eastern coyotes are definitely not strictly nocturnal.

[JShirley]

I'm quite concerned about this animal's behavior.

John

When in doubt, take 'em out.

[itgoesboom]

Scott,

I wouldn't worry about getting a new toy, I would just remove this problem before it gets to serious.

If it is a coyote, put out something on that hillside, and kill it tonight.

If it is a fox, get animal control out there to take care of it.

Whether it is a fox or a coyote, it just aint acting right. Sounds way too aggressive

I.G.B.

[Harve Curry]

I shoot coyotes often. Coyotes in the suburbs is bad news. They kill your pets and if they can get away with it will take a baby from it's playpen. They think and plan and enjoy the chase and killing, they are a predator.
Here they rundown beef cattle, bob tail the calves when they don't catch them. They are pretty prolific so we don't have to worry about extinction.

[Tom Bri]

Go ahead and shoot them. There is no end to coyotes, it is not like they are nearly extinct or something. Shoot them. They are smart, and if a few don't come home, the rest will catch on real quick that this is not a good neighborhood.

I would never risk harm to my girls to save a coyote's life! They are large predators, not cute little fluffy-bunnies to coo over.

[BeLikeTrey]

Looking for an update! Hope everything is ok...

[Battlespace]

A friend in Kentucky lost a cat to a coyote last winter. They live in a subdivision right at the edge of a town with a population of 20,000+. She let the cat out one morning around 8:00 and at noon went to call him in. All she found was a pile of fur in the yard. She had been in the shower and using a hair dryer, so did not hear anything. There was sufficient snow on the ground that the animal control said it was probably a coyote. The next day she looked out of her kitchen window at about the time the cat had been killed and there was a coyote in the backyard. Guess he thought he had a good thing going.

We used to get $2.00 for their ears (early 1960's). Had to scalp them and leave the ears together to prove they came from one animal. We used some .22's but most any "deer" rifle of .243 or larger would work. I imagine more "dogs" are shot with a 30-30 than any other rifle.

[ScottsGT]

Not much to update, except the wildlife biologist said the same thing for the fox. Aim carefully. The wife saw him again Thursday morning in the bushes between our yard and the house next door. Bought some .410 buckshot on the way home and walked the wife thru the basics of gun safety ( for the second time in 3 years) and showed her how to use it. Also told her not to shoot it unless it was in the back yard, since there is no back stop on the sides but the other houses. I'm seeing less and less of the fox, maybe with all the rain we've been getting he (or she) is laying low.

[ScottsGT]

Been a week now, and only sighted the fox one time and that was abouth 9:30 pm. It was running across the road abouth 3 houses down from mine. Don't know why it was coming out during the day unless it was really hungry and trying to feed the pups I saw at night. I don't mind it being around, I'm just not going to tolerate the agresssive behavior.

[mtnbkr]

Not SC related, but there are reports of Coyotes showing up in Falls Church, Va now.

If you don't know, Falls Church is a small town in the Northern Va region. It's inside the beltway. It's in no way rural, or isolated.

Chris

[Harve Curry]

Every chance you get just shoot the damn things. Don't worry there will always be more. Here in the S/W old timers also call them brush wolves.
They are fun to call in with a rabbit call, voice or taped electronic. They sneak up thinking they're hunting you, then you blast 'em. They use the wind and come in with the breeze in their face. But always look behind you.

We are in the reintroduction area of the wolf program from the US Fish & Wolf Service. When they are done we'll have less deer and elk to enjoy, not to mention the predations on livestock, horses, dogs, cats, and watching out for your own youngsters. But thats another story.

[sumpnz]

We are in the reintroduction area of the wolf program from the US Fish & Wolf Service. When they are done we'll have less deer and elk to enjoy, not to mention the predations on livestock, horses, dogs, cats, and watching out for your own youngsters. But thats another story. I don't really have a problem with the wolves preying on deer and elk. That is the natural order of things afterall. If it means fewer opportunities for me to hunt, oh well. As it is, with fewer and fewer people getting into hunting having the wolves around to control deer and elk populations may become necessary. And, as CWD spreads, the wolves will take out the sick ones and hopefully help to contain the disease.

As far as livestock and horses, and threats to pets and kids, well, wolves are really not that much worse than the coyotes and cougars that are already here. If you witness a hostile act, open fire. Otherwise, especially with wolves, live and let live.

[Harve Curry]

Read the latest issue of Range magazine for the latest of the predations of wolves. Wolves do kill for fun they run down elk till they can't move from heat exhustion. That don't mean they eat all of them, some just don't recover and lay out and die. The ones that do get ate by wolves don't usually get killed first. The wolves just disable them then eat them from the butt forward while they cry out till they die.
Of the original 18 or so that were introduced into Yellowstone there are now 370 by USFW count, probably more. They range far outside of Yellowstone into the surrounding states.
We don't now how many are in New Mexico because it's a need to know kinda thing. Wolf reintroduction program costs tax payers about $1million dollars per wolf. You know the goverment cannot do anything simple, and college educated goverment employee's don't work cheap, and at the end of the day they don't have to worry about the bottom line dollar.

Wolf people like the Gila Watch, Forest Guardians based in Tucson are anti rights, anti hunting, anti-gun, anti ranching, anti lumbering, anti ag-business, and anti try and make a living with anything that has to do with the National Forest or BLM lands.
Run any business, a ag business, manage a family business, produce a product or service where your every day work has to amount to some form of profit as it will directly effect what your family is going to do and eat and you will have a different definition of live and let live.
Supporting the notion of the wolf people is akin to saying to Sarah Brady or slick willie, " it's OK we can still sit down and have lunch together."

[sumpnz]

Harve, sorry if I offended you in some way. I'm hardly a supporter of enviro-terrorists like Gila Watch (and implying that I do is a notion that I find offensive). But wolves are an important part of our eco-system. The over population of deer in the mid-west and east coast would likely not have happened, or at least not to the extent that it has if wolves had not been hunted to near extinction. CWD would not be such a problem in Wisconsin, and Colorado and other states if there was effective non-human predation of deer and elk. I don't dispute your characterization of wolves hunting techniques.

Nor do I dispute the cost of wolf re-introduction. When it comes to livestock, if it means that I have to pay an extra $0.50/lb for my beef becuase the cattle ranchers have to account for stock killed and for additonal protections from wolves, so what. Ranchers have to make a living, so if prices have to go up becuase of wolves, I'm okay with that. When it comes to pets, well lots already get eaten by coyotes anyway. If wolves come back, there will fewer coyotes because of competition for food, and wolves will kill some coyotes. In that sense, the balance is probably the same for pets. As for kids, well I already have to protect against coyotes and cougars. Adding wolves to the mix doesn't really change things that much.

People's fear of wolves is partially real, partially irrational. In the balance of things, wolves are a probably good thing to have. Just like any predator they can cause problems, though rancher's livlihoods do bear the brunt. In that sense I'd like to give them more leeway in how they are allowed to protect their animals, including shooting the occasional wolf.

[macavada]

No flame intended, but where did you get your $1 million per wolf figure?

[Harve Curry]

When a wolf kills cattle the burden of proof is on the livestock owner. When and if you get reimbursed it may not be the value of the animal.
Goverment employees wanting the program to look good, set the standard of proving whether the kill was by domestic dogs, coyotes or other.
You cannot shoot a wolf except in defence of human life or cattle. Dogs, cats, horses don't count legally. The goverment will come down on you same as a homicide of another human.
The dent wolves have put in population of elk, deer, and bison is measurable. Wolves have no enemy. Right now they're at the top.
Hunts have been put off in Wyoming and Montana. People who make a living guiding hunters will not be able to make a living at it.
Part of the big picture of the tree huggers is to keep hunters off public land.
Get the land back to pre-anglo.
Wolves have little redeemable value, all things have their time and place.

[sumpnz]

Harve, You obviously have very strong feelings regarding the value of wolves. I, obviously, disagree on many points. Wolves have no enemy. Right now they're at the top. And aside from humans and perhaps cougars and the occasional bear, what predator has ever been above the wolf? See the graphic from Stand_Watie about 34 posts back. People who make a living guiding hunters will not be able to make a living at it. Yeah, and 10 years ago when I was thinking about becomming an engineer in the aerospace industry people told me I was nuts becuase the aerospace industry had just finished laying off scads of engineers (and they wouldn't start hiring significantly more for a few more years). 30 years before that the industry couldn't get enough engineers, a situation we're in again although to a lesser extent. But even still we took a huge hit from an employment standpoint in the aftermath of 9/11. Why should hunting guides be immune to changes in circumstance? Sorry if that sounds cold but fortunes rise and fall for the rest of us too.

[Harve Curry]

Macavada,
The dollar figure comes from anti-wolf sources that I trust. When you consider that the planning of and wolf reintroduction program has been going on for over 15 years, the cost of studys, enviromental impact studies, facilities, raising the wolves, vets, field staff, legal staff, radio equipment, tracking equipment, 4x4's, helicopters, the list goes on. Then divide that figure by the actual number of wolves turned loose, then the number is probably on the conservative side. Soon the first generation of USF&W wolf emplyees will be retiring and we're paying them retirement and all they've done is to reintroduce a non productive predator at tax payer expense.

Another goal is the reintroduction of the grizzly bear in the south west, at the enviro's own statement in the Tucson paper Az Daily Star a few years ago, they realize they cannot win public support with out a successful wolf reintroduction first.

[Art Eatman]

I've followed the wolf-reintroduction efforts in the southwest; not super-close, but reasonably. Including info from USF&WS, Harve is pretty much correct.

Back some years ago, the USF&WS stated that a "do nothing" policy would cost $4 million per year. I'd like to have a job that paid $ 4million a year to do nothing...They went on to say that a full-effort restoration program would run about $18 milion a year. I've yet to see a government program that stayed within any projected budget.

Comments from Montana indicate that the so-called reimbursement program for the ranchers is so stringent about proof of kill that unless there is direct observation at the moment of kill, well, folks, tough stuff.

As far as comparing aerospace jobs and hunting guiding, that seems a bit apples-and-oranges to me. Hunting and hunting guiding has a long history, beginning long before technology as we know it. Technology changes. Hunting doesn't...FWIW

Art

[sumpnz]

Art, if you'll notice the point of my jobs comment was fortunes rise and fall for the rest of us too. At any rate, wolves pre-existed hunters and hunting guides. Cry me a river if a few guides loose their jobs becuase natural, non-human predators (that we previously wiped out by us humans) are brought back and start to prey upon their historical food source. I have no problem with hunting, hunters, hunting guides, etc. I'm hoping to go deer and elk hunting this year for the first time and, all else being equal I'd sure prefer a higher population so that I have a better chance of success (both in the draw and in the hunt). But if I miss out becuase wolves have killed so many deer and elk that hunt permits are reduced, oh well. I'll be disappointed for sure, but nobody said I'd get everything I want in life.

Now I do have sympathy for the ranchers who are loosing money becuase they aren't allowed to protect their livestock from wolves, and then not reimbursed for the ones that are lost as a result. Doesn't mean we should eradicate the wolves again, though a few politicians and enviro-weanies might be in order.

$18million/year is in the noise of the federal budget. I'm not defending it's expenditure, and there's certainly better ways it could be spent. But I have little problem with animals that we hunted to extinction (locally) being brought back so long as those who are directly affected by that action are able to protect themselves and their livlihoods in a reasonalbe fashion (which they are not right now). If it weren't for reintroduction efforts like these we wouldn't have any elk in Arizona, or anywhere but Yellowstone for that matter. The same govt. agency involved with the wolves is also working to restore antelope habitat in Arizona. Both of those efforts are greatly expanding hunting opportunities.

Anyway, this thread has really wandered off topic. Rather than continue with this hijack I'm simply going to finish my post with this: You (Harve and Art) have your opinions on this whole wolf matter and I respect it. Heck I can even to some extent agree with it. But I do not buy into the notion that "Wolves have little redeemable value."

[Art Eatman]

Aw, sumpnz, I'm not that far off. I guess it's the usual "It ain't what you do, it's how you do it."

I like the idea of the wolf reintroduction. I don't like the idea that working people's interests are for all practical purposes subservient to those of the wolves or the wolfophiles.

Were the government's system honest, there would be no need for "Shoot, shovel and shut up." It's the dishonesty and hypocrisy that gets my old red neck to glowing.

Art

[Harve Curry]

Like I said at first, get the latest issue of "Range Magazine"

[MolonLabe416]

One lesson learned here. If you have a variable scope, always keep it on the lowest setting.

You should have good luck over bait.