[orangeninja]

Would you trust your life to a Saiga Shotty? Over a Remi 870?

[TechBrute]

In general I think twice before trusting an autoloader shotgun. Out of the main 3 types of guns, the auto shotguns tend to be the most sensative. With some practice, you can keep up with an auto using your pump. Especially if you're talking about taking aimed shots instead of just spraying and praying.

[pauli]

the one i held in the store gave me the impression of controls that were completely bizarre. part of the problem is that i'm left handed, but still. i couldn't figure out how you were supposed to work the safety with either hand on the gun.

[Correia]

I've got several thousand rounds through a Saiga 12. Most of it in a 3gun or practicing for 3gun environment. Mostly bulk bird shot, but a good sample of buck and slugs as well. I don't do as good a job of keeping up on round counts as I should, but I believe I'm coming up on 4,000 rounds now. No malfunctions. I did have one deformed shell that didn't want to hand cycle from the top of a magazine, but I squished it in and it extracted just fine. Most of those shots have been in fast bursts, I've had people ask if my shotgun was full auto. :p

The most practice rounds I've put through it in one day is around 500. The most I've put through in a day of match shooting is around 250.

It is a strange gun, requiring a lot of effort to master, and it does have some clunky features, but once you master it, it is an impressive weapon. I'm going to have to say that it is the most reliable semi-auto shotgun I've ever seen.

[MrAcheson]

The Saiga's definitely have a wear in period for the first 200-300 rounds. They have the usual AK design quirks you will need to get used to, but one of the advantages is that they are plenty reliable just like an AK.

[MrMurphy]

The safety is in a somewhat odd position for a pistol grip, with the sporting stock, it's in an even weirder position. Do this: Wrap your fingers around the action and trigger guard from the bottom, with your thumb resting on the safety. Sweep it down as you use your left hand to shoulder the weapon and slide your right hand back to the firing grip.


Or, don't use the safety and yank the bolt handle before shouldering.


Being a Kalashnikov action I would have no qualms about using one reliability wise....... I know several Saiga owners who've collectively put about 2,000 rounds through theirs with no problems.

[orangeninja]

Thats about what I thought. I may have to sell a Remi and get one of these things.

[john l]

How long have you had the saiga, Larry? Let's say 18 months. 4000 rounds divided by 25 rounds equals 160 boxes of 25 rounds each. 160 boxes at $3.50 per box That's $560.00!
Hey, if you are shooting so much, why don't you invite me to go with you, I'm hurt, bud.
john l.
PS- I have seen Larry shoot his Saiga a LOT, and it hasn't jammed. Larry is a dyed-in-the-wool 870 man, and I betcha he would bet his life on his Saiga. If not, I will take it off his hands, only if I get the 8 round mags.

[Correia]

Holy crap John, don't let my wife see that calculation!

Luckily for me a big chunk of that total round count was other people's ammo. I have used the Saiga as a loaner for the Ward skeet day and also a couple of times for the boy scouts. The young men actually ran through 5 of the Wal Mart value packs in one afternoon shooting in the general direction of clay targets.

I will say though that the fast action and quick reloads tends to make you waste a lot more money a whole lot faster than you otherwise would have. :eek:

[pauli]

that's why i'm such a proponent of levers, pumps, and bolts - you have fun operating the gun in a way that DOESN"T cost money :D

[Average Guy]

Maybe it says something about Gun Tests... I was considering a Saiga because they just look so cool (gasp!), but the Gun Tests review said their test model's receiver came apart within a few rounds. But hey, 4k rounds is pretty impressive.

[nipprdog]

http://forum.saiga-12.com/

[Correia]

If I recall the Guntests review, it was the receiver cover that popped off. The only way that the receiver cover can pop off is if it is reassembled by somebody dumber than the 3rd world peasant goat herders who have been successfully using a variation of this design since 1947.

I don't have a lot of faith in Guntest's reviews. :)

[MrMurphy]

As he said, the only way an AK type reciever cover can come off is if you don't push it down far enough to engage the button. Considering how many illiterate uneducated Third World peasants and goatherders have figured out how to fieldstrip and properly reassemble this type of weapon (even without instructions), a real moron put together the Gun Tests test weapon.

Disassembly: Clear the magazine and chamber. Push button, remove reciever cover upward. Pull bolt back and up, take bolt apart (one extra step). Remove the gas tube forward. You're done. About as simple as automatic actions get.

[MrAcheson]

If I recall correctly, Gun Tests had the reciever come off because the button physically broke. The after pictures showed damage although I'm unsure about whether it was damage caused by them not putting the reciever on right, or damage that caused the reciever to come off. My opinion of Gun Tests is above that of the typical gun rag, but below anything I get on TFL or THR.

[MrMurphy]

They probably couldn't get the cover on right and tried to slam it down. Those buttons are stout, it's the only way I can think of to break it.

[orangeninja]

I have 2 Saiga 7.62x39....I don't know how the hell you would break that button...but then I've seen a broken crow bar before too.

[JesusCow]

i've had my 20 for almost a year now.. roughly 2000 rounds through it

the only jams i've experienced can be attributed to user error.

(stovepipe (FTE) when attempting to bump fire, and using 3" mag with 2-3/4" shells-- FTFeed last 2 rounds in 8 round mag)

[hartzpad]

I've had my Saiga 12 for about a year now and I love it. Not one malfunction in over 2000 rounds of mixed birdshot, buckshot and slugs. Eats everything. My model has the 19" barrel, bolt hold open and inter-changable chokes. I would without a doubt trust my life to my Saiga 12. I do agree that the Saigas shoot very quickly, I can shoot all 5+1 shells before the first empty hits the ground. It does almost sound like full auto. The best part about a Saiga 12 is that it is the softest recoiling 12 gauge I've ever shot. 3" magnums don't even hurt my shoulder, of course I have a recoil buffer installed too.

http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/24295My_Guns_033-med.jpg

[AirPower]

correct me if I have the wrong concept, but can you change the sporter stock back into pistol grip/AK buttstock type? I think that's outlawed by AWB but once it goes away in Sept, it's legal, correct?

[hartzpad]

correct me if I have the wrong concept, but can you change the sporter stock back into pistol grip/AK buttstock type? I think that's outlawed by AWB but once it goes away in Sept, it's legal, correct?

You are correct, although 922(r) still applies. That means that you must replace 5 imported parts on the shotgun w/ 5 U.S. made parts to be able to legally add a pistol grip.

[Dave McCracken]

Would I trust my life to a Saiga over an 870? H*ll NO!!

WOuld I trust my life to anything made by man over an 870?

Same answer.

When it absolutely has to work, an 870.

Second choice, another 870....

[SapperLeader]

I have no intentions of switching out either of my 870s from my home defense rotation, but I really want one of these saigas. Havent shot one yet, but a guy at my range went through a case of ammo, quickly and accuratly with one of these. Theres something reall awesome about hearing booms in rapid fire at a pistol range admist everyone elses traditional handguns and pump shotguns. Has anyone had any luck acquirng 8 round magazines though? Im sure the 5 are plenty for me, but the thought of there being a 8 rd magazine out there makes em want one when I do acquire a saiga.

[MrAcheson]

Havent shot one yet, but a guy at my range went through a case of ammo, quickly and accuratly with one of these.

I can see the quickly but I don't know about the accurately. The sight radius on these are miniscule (less than a foot) and the trigger is pretty bad too.

[akanotken]

I'd trust it for the same reason that I would trust a lot of semi's over the pump.

Pro semi -
The pump depends on you. I've seen failures to pump (totally forget, and shortstroking). You can train this to a minimum. But I'd always worry in the extreme stress that something like this could happen. Tactically, I like the idea of the ability to shoot one handed, or off the weak sholder (both much easier with a semi). As to reliability, You CAN get your semi set up to run reliably with your shell of choice, and that is you job if you choose a semi over a pump. ANY deviation (shell load, adding a sidesaddle or light, whatever) requires you to reverify that you are still good.

Reliability - not perfect but some of it my fault

I now own a 20 and 12ga. With the 20ga, I got some pretty bad results with wally world remington (I think), while winchester was fine. Then I realized I needed to clean the factory lube (DOH moment). The factory coating stuff is pretty thick. Since then (and I probably ran 500 mixed rounds thru before this cleaning) it's been smooth!

My 12ga is a month old or so. I cleaned it first. :o I sighted it in, but found that it was shooting low. ~4-6 inches AT 15 YARDS. EAA wants me to send it back for eval, but I'm still thinking of putting some other sights on it. So I've shot it little (all with out incident), but have borrowed friends for a couple of competitions. I've induced 3 ftf's in ~175 rounds, but as they are not mine, I'm not going to come to any conclusions (other than you CAN get a failure).

I'll toss out something to think about. I read somewhere, (but I can't find it) that some department somewhere (not even sure if it was in the US) had switched to metallic cartridges. The either experienced, or worried about the possibility of the shells deforming in the mag, I think these were carried in the vehicle so the jostling of driving made it worse. I've decided that when I can get a spare mag I'll set one aside and keep it loaded in the gun taking it out for matches, but replacing it when the gun is put away. In my 20ga, it's been a non factor but only tested for a few weeks.