[RM]

What are the advantages of having a C&R license? Does the license benefit you if your primary interest is modern firearms? How difficult are they to obtain?

[Cacique500]

A C&R license will allow you to purchase any firearms that are 50 years or older, as well as a few 'younger' ones that are on a special ATF list (like an SKS).

With a C&R you can have these rifles/pistols shipped directly to your doorstep with no NICS or other paperwork. You will have to keep a bound book to log in and log out C&R weapons.

You'll also get a hefty discount from MidwayUSA & Brownells.

Cost is $30 for 3 years and the paperwork to get one is very simple (3 forms I think)...takes about 30-90 days to receive it.

You can find more info on getting the license at http://www.cruffler.com/discus/messages/43/43.html?1087505021

[MuzzleBlast]

It makes it possible for you to buy old (50 years or greater) firearms through the internet and have them delivered directly to your house. It also gets you discounts at some of the suppliers, like Midway and Brownells. All you have to do is send in the application form and $30. Use the search function here and you will get tons of info on the C&R license.

[bobs1066]

Empties your wallet & fills your safe. :D

[WhoKnowsWho]

Drives you insane as you wait for it in the mail more than a month after sending it out! :p

All I can do is look at what I want to order. And I have delayed my order from Midway USA because of the stupid thing! :banghead:

[Ktulu]

The discount at Brownells and MidwayUSA has saved me enough money to buy a few C&R firearms with.

[RM]

How much is the discount at Brownells and Midway?

[Cacique500]

It varies, but I've seen some things up to 30% - not *everything* is discounted, but a lot of it is.

[erbo_CO]

Just a word of caution...one of Kim du Toit's commenters, "llamas" (on this thread (http://www.kimdutoit.com/dr/commview.php?id=3146_0_1_0)), mentions this about the C&R:I wouldn't have one of those as a gift.

As a gift, I say.

Why not?

Because if you do, you place yourself at the mercy of the Feds. Because then they get to decide whether or not you are 'doing business'.

A C&R FFL is supposed to be only for those who buy or sell as a hobby or personal interest. If the Feds walk in one day and examine your books, they can decide that what you're actually doing is conducting a business. And confiscate all of your guns. And you'll have to go to a judge and persuade him that they are wrong. Good luck with that . . . . .Kim agrees:
The occasional discount and ease of obtaining an old rifle doesn't offset giving the horrible BATFE the keys to your house and your life.There's more discussion on this, pointing out that the rules are vague and open to interpretation. Food for thought....

[Hkmp5sd]

The occasional discount and ease of obtaining an old rifle doesn't offset giving the horrible BATFE the keys to your house and your life.

This is a totally bogus myth. Having a C&R DOES NOT give ATF permission to come in and search your house at will. If they believe you are committing a crime, they have to get a search warrant just like any other law enforcement agency.

What ATF CAN do is check your records on an annual basis. YOU have the option of letting them check your records at your home OR at their office. The only thing they can look at without a warrant are your records (ie bound book). They cannot even enter your house and look at the guns during this check.

I've had a C&R for over 20 years and have never met an ATF agent, much less been audited.

[carpettbaggerr]

they can decide that what you're actually doing is conducting a business. And confiscate all of your guns. And you'll have to go to a judge and persuade him that they are wrong. Good luck with that . . . . .
They can do that even if you don't have a C&R.....

[entropy]

"Because if you do, you place yourself at the mercy of the Feds. Because then they get to decide whether or not you are 'doing business'.

A C&R FFL is supposed to be only for those who buy or sell as a hobby or personal interest. If the Feds walk in one day and examine your books, they can decide that what you're actually doing is conducting a business."


Simple solution: Don't sell any you buy on the C&R! :D

[geekWithA.45]

Evan Nappen, esqu. warns NJ residents not to get a C&R, for the following reasons:


-The state laws and regs are more restrictive than the feds, and NJ takes the point of view that you must comply with the more restrictive state processes. Therefore, you gain no advantage to posessing a C&R.

-The NJ state cops are butt buddies with the ATF, and exchange info freely.

-All 800+/- FFL holders in the state are subject to very special scrutiny

He therefore concludes that in NJ, a C&R is of no value, and nothing more than an invitation to trouble.

[tulsamal]

Simple solution: Don't sell any you buy on the C&R!

That's what I was going to say!

I've had my C&R for four years now. No problem with the three year renewal. I bought the most guns the first year. Worth keeping just for the discounts at Midway and Graf's. I've never seen or heard anything from any ATF agent but, worst case, they could just request to see my books at their offices. They can't show up at my house and get access.

And I've bought a bunch of guns but I haven't sold even one! If you don't sell at all (or even very much) then you aren't going to have any problems. If you get a C&R and then start getting a table at every gun show to sell the guns you are buying with it, you could end up with big problems. That would be your fault though not the ATF guys.

Gregg

[Cacique500]

You *can* sell guns with a C&R, but only to enhance your collection (not running it as a business). I think a good dose of common sense goes a long way here.

Example: If you run across a nice Russian SKS and need to sell one or two of your Yugo SKS's to get it that's fine. You're enhancing your collection.

Buying 10 SKS's, keeping the nicest one and selling the other 9 to your buddies the next day is *NOT* ok.

As Tulsamal said, I haven't sold any of my C&R weapons yet either (amazing how the multiply in the dark recesses of a safe isnt it? :) ). But if I need to sell a Sistema or two to get a rare or uniquely marked Sistema I will...remember, enhancing your COLLECTION.

Keep in mind that the purpose of a 03 FFL (C&R) is for COLLECTORS to collect. If you don't engage in any BUSINESS activity with it you should be fine. Just keep your bound book in good order and if you have a scheduled inspection with the ATF you'll be prepared.

BTW, if you are contacted for an 03 inspection, the ATF can and most likely will look at both your C&R weapons & your bound book - they cannot ask to see any of your non-C&R weapons and you are not required to show them any of your non-C&R weapons.

[tulsamal]

BTW, if you are contacted for an 03 inspection, the ATF can and most likely will look at both your C&R weapons & your bound book - they cannot ask to see any of your non-C&R weapons and you are not required to show them any of your non-C&R weapons.

But how would they do such a thing if you are going to have the inspection at their offices in the big city? Sure, if you are the subject of an investigation because they have discovered you sold 57 different MN M44's last year but I'm talking about a "normal" inspection. Just the local agent checking people's paperwork type thing. They call and set up an appointment. You go downtown and bring your book. You chat for a few minutes and then you go home. And I know only a very few C&R holders who have ever gone through that much. Most of us buy so few guns (by ATF standards) that we are totally under the radar.

You had to go and mention Sistemas! That was probably my favorite purchase. The gun is so nice and shoots so well. Totally GI 1911A1. But the extra special fun was the delivery. There is just something mind altering when the regular rural delivery postwoman drives up to your door and hands you a box with a totally functional 1911 inside! Old WWII rifles are one thing but a .45 ACP?! I had to laugh. If she only knew!

Gregg

[Mr. Clark]

What if I found myself is a tight financial spot and needed to sell a few guns to raise some cash? If I don't reinvest that money in more C&R guns, am I engaging in a business? What is the time limit to reinvest that money? If I do it within a certain amount of time am I OK, similar to IRS rules about capital gains from the sale of my house?

Would that be considered running a business if I didn't have a C&R?

Does anyone know?

I have the application sitting on my desk, I just haven't filled it out yet. This thread raised an important question I hadn't considered.

[tulsamal]

What if I found myself is a tight financial spot and needed to sell a few guns to raise some cash? If I don't reinvest that money in more C&R guns, am I engaging in a business?

You _are_ allowed to sell guns but it just makes it much more likely that you will end up meeting an ATF agent down the road. (Especially if you are really unlucky and a gun you sell ends up being used in a crime.)

If you bought ten guns in a year for several years and then suddenly sold 5-6, I don't _think_ ATF would spare a glance at you. Like somebody already said, the people who are getting the long looks are the ones who are really using their C&R as a way to get guns to sell at gunshows. So they buy all the 8mm's, Mosins, K-31's, etc. that we get for low prices and then set up a table at the gunshow. That's not kosher.

If you are using a C&R FFL to _save_ money, you are good to go. If you are using a C&R FFL to _make_ money, then you are "engaging in the gun business" and you are screwing up! Just get an 01 FFL.

If I owned 100 C&R guns and hit a financial situation that forced me to basically liquidate my collection, I think I would give up my C&R first. Then I would just be Joe Blow private citizen selling their collection. Happens all the time. I love those kinds of sales!

Gregg

[Mr. Clark]

Thanks, tulsamal.

I guess I'll go ahead and get the license. It saves the transfer fee every time I buy a C&R gun. Besides, if, after going through the regs, I see something I don't like, I just won't use it. The C&R regs only apply to firearms bought with the license, not all the C&R firearms I own, right?

[Cacique500]

But how would they do such a thing if you are going to have the inspection at their offices in the big city

You have the option - you can bring your C&R weapons to their office for inspection (though how you'd get a bunch of guns into a Federal Building I don't know) *or* you can have the agent come to your home (with an appointment) and have the inspection done there.

I've heard that when you have an inspection you should have your C&R weapons out and ready for inspection along with your bound book - that way they don't get a peek in your safe (if you have one). Remember that on a C&R inspection they can *only* inspect your C&R weapons.

What if I found myself is a tight financial spot and needed to sell a few guns to raise some cash

I think this is a grey area - but if you've had the guns for awhile (6 months? a year?) you should be ok. If you bought them last week and sell them tomorrow I don't think that would look too good. The big problem is that having a C&R *will* put you in a tight financial spot :) - but the good news is that most (not all) of the C&R weapons are fairly cheap so just try and moderate yourself to within your means (I'm not really one to talk on that!)


The C&R regs only apply to firearms bought with the license, not all the C&R firearms I own, right?

Any C&R weaons purchased before you receive your license do not go in your bound book. However, if you ever sell those weapons after you get your C&R they must be logged out of your bound book.

And Tulsamal, Sistema's RULE! I've got 7 of them now and they just seem to keep breeding in the safe!

[Mr. Clark]

Any C&R weaons purchased before you receive your license do not go in your bound book. However, if you ever sell those weapons after you get your C&R they must be logged out of your bound book.

Ah, I got it. I am going to have to read those regs carefully. Very carefully.

[Cacique500]

Here's a few good forums on C&R - they all have sections explaining the process and the regs:

http://p077.ezboard.com/bparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums

http://www.cruffler.com

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=1

There are many more but these are the few I frequent.