it turns out my friend is basically a stalinist


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MJRW
June 18, 2004, 01:59 PM
Been friends with him for years and just never discussed politics. Amongst a myriad of other authoritarian views, he provided this lovely piece:

"As we discussed on the phone the other day, I wish that handguns had never been invented. In a utopian world, the only persons who would own guns (any kind of guns) would be soldiers and police officers. As we don't live in this world and I don't know if it's even possible to get to such a place at this point in the human crisis known as our existence, I believe in whatever gun control laws that are proven to stop criminals from obtaining guns. I'm not saying we take away the rights of an honest, law-abiding, non-felony committing citizen to own a gun. I'm saying that I want somebody in power to figure a conclusive plan that will stop the illegal sale of firearms to criminals and the illegal importation of guns from other countries. I haven't seen this plan yet."

Man, I don't even know where to respond to this logical mess. I can't organize my thoughts on this, it is so atrocious in the process...it is like that huge ball of christmas lights in National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation.

-Policy based on impossible idealism and an idealism that doesn't really make sense.
-A conceptual utopia where there is a need for police and military, let alone an armed one.
-Human crisis known as our existence? I need to smack him.
-Laws that stop criminals? I swore laws only punished criminals.
-Trusting all this to "somebody in power" yet he thinks GWB is out of control?

Seriously, I could use some help here. This boy needs some help. He is clearly part of the MTV-Party.

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R.H. Lee
June 18, 2004, 02:11 PM
Only two words come to mind. "Bliss" and "Ninny". Does your friend have any education? Can he point to any society anywhere in history that warrants his approval? Is he a product of a red-diaper-doper-baby household?

BigG
June 18, 2004, 02:12 PM
Your friend is braindead. Probably a Kerry supporter, too. :uhoh: Give it up.

MJRW
June 18, 2004, 02:14 PM
Surprisingly, his education is number crunching. Math degree from VT, minor in Statistics I think. May be the other way around. Which is why I was surprised by his thoughts. Seems more of an emotional appeal in spite of numbers contradicting. It makes no sense to me. Parents are good parents, work hard, paid attention, were involved in his life. Although I believe his dad is an aging hippy. But the guy is really a lot of fun to hang out with so I can't knock his Pops.

MJRW
June 18, 2004, 02:19 PM
You know, I'm thinking guys like BigG are the problem with the RKBA movement. If your response is indicative of how you interact with antis and fence straddlers, you are not helping things. While the antis will take the time to try to convince someone that gun grabbing is the only way, people like you just walk away and leave them to the clutches of Sarah Brady. Someone asks for some assistance in helping someone understand the flaws of their argument, potentially showing them the logic of the RKBA side, and you recommend give it up? I swear, we will lose this if this is the standard operation of RKBA proponents.

HankB
June 18, 2004, 02:25 PM
In a utopian world, the only persons who would own guns (any kind of guns) would be soldiers and police officers. Uhhh . . . if we had a Utopian world, wouldn't that mean there was no need for either soldiers or police officers?

And if there was no need for soldiers or police officers, that would mean there would be no criminals or conquerers . . . and there would be NO problem with guns being freely available anyway.

boofus
June 18, 2004, 02:29 PM
In my utopian world they would hand out Steyr AUGs and FNCs and M16s to anyone that wants one. :D

316SS
June 18, 2004, 02:33 PM
MJRW-

I would be incredulous that you could know somebody for years and not realize what his politics were, except it happened recently to me. Had a buddy I've known for almost two decades tell me that most people are incapable of making decisions about there own money, and won't save for retirement, which is why we need Social Security. It completely floored me.

Reasoning in an abstract sense appears impossible with your friend. Try illustrating parrallels with his already held beliefs. I've had luck drawing parrallels between the War On Drugs(which many liberals oppose) and gun control.

I want somebody in power to figure a conclusive plan that will stop the illegal sale of firearms to criminals and the illegal importation of guns from other countries

Its almost too easy, but be sure to back him into a corner on the WOD issue before you drop the bomb. Be advised, the irrational often get VERY ANGRY AND UPSET when confronted with proof that their closely held beliefs are nonsense.

Looks like you have some common ground, though:

I believe in whatever gun control laws that are proven to stop criminals from obtaining guns

i.e. none! :D

Good Luck. Consider just going back to talking about baseball, he seems like a lost cause.

316SS

BigG
June 18, 2004, 02:54 PM
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Seems like having convenient, no need to think opinions fed to them is sufficient for lots of folks, like your friend. Have a nice day. :)

Treylis
June 18, 2004, 03:01 PM
The questions I always ask in such situations are:

"Do you think it's right to lock people up for something that they might do?" (possession versus usage)

"Don't you think that people should be able to do anything they want so long as they don't hurt others?" (Non-Aggression Principle)

As I've said before, don't fight statistics with statistics, fight with politics, with ethics, with epistemology, with metaphysics--always go to a more fundamental level. It worked for Rand, it works for L. Neil Smith, and it'll work for you.

Partisan Ranger
June 18, 2004, 03:03 PM
In a utopian world, there would be no sin and man would be incapable of evil.

Only in that scenario would weapons no longer be necessary. The only place like that, according to my Bible, is the life after this one.

This is a fallen world, and people do bad things in it, often no matter how much money they have or how well their parents treated them.

Diggler
June 18, 2004, 03:15 PM
red-diaper-doper-babyNow, that's just... Savage. :D

Gotta love the way that sounds with the New Yawk accent.

Ktulu
June 18, 2004, 03:44 PM
Sounds like a pothead. Peace, Love, and big green Buds!

C-Note
June 18, 2004, 03:59 PM
When discussing gun control with an "quasi-rational" anti, I'll usually try getting them to come to the range for some target shooting. If they accept, more often than not, it's an on-the-spot conversion.

I have no more tolerance for the willfully ignorant or malicious anti. I'll ask them if they're willing to die trying to take my guns away, because that is what will absolutely happen.

If you can't convert them, terrify them into inaction.

cordex
June 18, 2004, 04:00 PM
In my utopian world they would hand out Steyr AUGs and FNCs and M16s to anyone that wants one.
In mine you'd have to buy the rifle, but the ammo would be free.

I'm still waiting for the obligatory "Utopian!?! Poodleshooters!?!? In a utopian world, they'd hand out G3s, FALs and M1As!"

Mulliga
June 18, 2004, 06:36 PM
I'm still waiting for the obligatory "Utopian!?! Poodleshooters!?!? In a utopian world, they'd hand out G3s, FALs and M1As!"

Meh...in a utopian world, they'd give out full-auto MG-42s and 1919s. :cool:

spartacus2002
June 18, 2004, 07:32 PM
As my father likes to say, "Ain't nuthin' wrong with that kid that a tour of duty in the [US Marine] Corps wouldn't fix.."

Obiwan
June 18, 2004, 07:38 PM
Do not....allow this man to breed!

Standing Wolf
June 18, 2004, 10:25 PM
I believe in whatever gun control laws that are proven to stop criminals from obtaining guns.

So do I, in fact. There aren't any. Never have been. Never will be.

Rebeldon
June 18, 2004, 11:58 PM
I believe in whatever gun control laws that are proven to stop criminals from obtaining guns.

Gun control laws only prevent law-abiding citizens from obtaining guns. Criminals do not obey laws. They are anti-social by nature, and will not obey a lesser law which is designed to prevent them from breaking a more serious law that they are already inclined to violate. Lesser laws of prohibition that are designed to prevent you from violating more serious laws are idiotic. The overall purpose of gun control is to prevent murder (which is already illegal), but murder begins in the mind.

You friend isn't necessarily a Stalinist, although it's possible. He's a statist to be sure.

pax
June 19, 2004, 12:30 AM
MJRW,

If your friend is as intelligent as you say, and willing to discuss this again, ask him to read this link (http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel120501.shtml).

It says absolutely everything he needs to hear, very clearly.

pax

cropcirclewalker
June 19, 2004, 01:28 AM
Mr. MJRW

Sometimes there is no cure for a ****** eatin' dog.

Since he wants to hold hands and sing, "Let there be peace on Earth" you might ask him,

"What do you do about the rabid possum or the hungry cougar who can't or won't carry a tune?"

Reason with it?

Tinker
June 20, 2004, 12:42 AM
You say that your freind is a well educated-number-crunching-statistics man.

I would suggest getting him a copy of John Lott's "More Guns Less Crime". Ask him to critique it.

Lott is a well-educated-number-crunching-statistics man, too.

:)

another okie
June 20, 2004, 06:06 PM
A good reply to folks like that is to say, "yes, that sort of law has worked so well for alcohol and drugs."

As far as this quote:

"Had a buddy I've known for almost two decades tell me that most people are incapable of making decisions about there own money, and won't save for retirement, which is why we need Social Security. It completely floored me."


I don't know why that floors you. The experience of the past 100 years in this country shows that it is true that most people won't save for retirement. Whether that means Social Security is necessary is a different argument.

Tom Bri
June 20, 2004, 10:19 PM
The guy is a number-cruncher. Just keep telling him to 'look at the numbers'. Appeal to his sense of logic.

pax
June 20, 2004, 10:24 PM
An excerpt from the link I posted above: But, what if, despite these extreme measures, the black market still functioned — as it almost always does, when there is sufficient demand?

It's time to seriously revisit our strategy for a gun-free world. Maybe there's a shortcut around all of this.

Okay. We're going to make a truly radical, no-holds-barred proposal this time, take a quantum leap in science, and go where no man has gone before. There may be those who scoff at our proposal, but it can succeed where all other strategies have failed.

We, Kopel, Gallant, and Eisen, hereby imagine that, from this day forth, the laws of chemical combustion are revoked. We hereby imagine that gunpowder — and all similar compounds — no longer have the capacity to burn and release the gases necessary to propel a bullet.

Peace for Our Time

Finally, for the first time, a gun-free world is truly within our grasp — and it's time to see what man hath wrought. And for that, all we have to do is take a look back at the kind of world our ancestors lived in.

...


pax

The fact that something is desirable seems to carry more weight with liberals than the fact that it is impossible. -- Thomas Sowell

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